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@@MrJPRMD the driver and woods are dependent on the clubhead being BELOW the elbow ( at waist height) so the clubhead RISES. You can get away with it a bit on irons. If the clubhead is too high there, it crashes and de-lofts too much. If it’s under it will rise. If you get this worked out you’ll notice that on irons that your divot can be several inches ahead of the ball. A 3 wood off the fairway will get swept or maybe have a light divot ahead of the ball.

@@frozendivots1564 Thanks for the speedy reply ! I shall apply these adjustments and let you know !

@@cdunne1620 the slight difference in MW Lee is complying to the line in place as much as possible where the hammer throw is more around you. Yes, both will have that helicopter feel and both work and using that is based on you and what you like to do. It’s best to experiment with that ‘line in space’

@@Lje7 I think he is the spiral, golden ratio guy. He is great. The golden ratio is the baby brother to a more complex shape and force that ‘powers’ the spiral, if that makes sense. The triangle amplification is used best in the splay, regarding the arms. Driving each side (forearms) and getting it BACK twofold (or close) into the club. The best way to power a spiral, is to invert a cone. Why? Well you get more for less. A general way to see this is that energy isn’t like turning on a hose, just pass thru. It’s a trade, back and forth. You get a fulcrum effect where you normally wouldn’t. What powers then becomes the fulcrum to amplify.

@@thesoundsession not bizarre to those who see it and figured it out.

If you try it you feel it..the load and look att that bottle

It’s better without to see what is supposed to be seen.

​@@DennyForrest-pk4khAgree, but need to see two hands on the golfclub. Do he take the club inside and then ott or does he go just up an club falls on the inside. I am standing infront of a mirror and try a lot of things here..😅

@@garre71 take it where you want. Did you notice the can drew a line? I carry that line when pitching. With two hands you can work that line and watch your swing turn into Matthew Wolff. Matthew’s swing went south because he drifts, easy fix. But I will get into it more. Remember this- we have a geometry and so does our surroundings.

@@garre71 watch this- he’s going right up in front of himself- m.czcams.com/users/shorts4B_5dwNwE04

​@@frozendivots1564This is so interesting and sick at the same time. I think i seen a man in Sweden teach this like 20 years ago. He wrote an article in the Swedish Golfdigest. And he was invited to a siminar to talk about this ,were all the golfteachers where invited. But he got pissed when Lynn Blake (the golfing machine)from US was invited to and was payed trippel as much. So then he did not show up and then he dispeared from golf. Went to see him but I was to to new to the game to grab what he suggested

@@garre71 not sure what he does now. I know his older stuff and it isn’t like this. You’ll see.

It looks like him, if you look at be better golf when he is trying to explain and his latest stuff on his page. But i don't know i am just a guesser 😂. Wish i could visit and sit for ours and discuss the golfswing so I finally know what i what to do. Mayby in my next life..😂

@@garre71 I’ll have to take a look. I am using the full 14, when that extends you’ll notice the degrees of freedom shrink. There is no twirl and dump, etc. maybe Martin changed things. Not sure. I can map his swing and tell you exactly what he’s doing now, if it’s changed or not.

@@frozendivots1564 It looks somewhat similar to Martin's "Most Powerful Move in Golf" of a few years ago.

@@vincentvela3774 you could take it back that way if you want. I think he went inward to his side, if I remember right. All I’m doing here is showing ONE line. There are many more…we have a geometry and our surroundings have a geometry.

@@PeteR-ji8ik we will start adding two hands on a club and then change angles, directions, etc. You want that retracting and extending torsion arm but with two arms you won’t really see it. Rather than just swinging an arm or arms. The pitching example is different than what people show as an underarm throw. And torsion beats a weak arm ‘swing’ or a windmill action.

@@frozendivots1564 Looking forward to seeing that :) Is the trail hand dominant thruout the entire motion or?

@@PeteR-ji8ik mine is. I have degenerative spine going on and losing my right (lead) side. Many my right side muscles are gone, or in the process of being gone. So it better be trail side for me. Until those go, then I need to figure out a No Sided Swing.

@@frozendivots1564 Oh, sorry to hear that.

@@stevejames7511 I have many times. People don’t see it so I am building to it part by part. You won’t see it in a golf swing without knowing

@@DennyForrest-pk4kh yes and that line I just went up is a Matthew Wolff type swing if I keep the line there. I can keep that line there relative to me in a rotation and you won’t see it as much, but it’s still there. Now swing it down a direct line and the splay happens.

@@DennyForrest-pk4kh and did I ‘swing’ my arm back? How far ‘back’ did my hand go? At the top I have complete leverage and zero strain. In a fastpitch softball move I have no ‘windmill around’, yet throw harder than windmill. Proper use of the arm.

@@frozendivots1564 Interesting :)

@@garre71 I’ve never heard that before. When are you thinking it would stop?

Hmm, I know it do not stop but when clubhead goes up compress) i want to turn my body. I know you don't want that to happen. You have show us how to do it. But I guess I need to see the whole motion to grab it..

@@garre71 your trail shoulder works counter to it which mean the shoulder goes forward. The shoulder joint goes forward. That doesn’t mean the entire upper body swings around.

Ok👍

@@PeteR-ji8ik try the rotations they way I showed. You should feel the differences. He noticed what happens when you merge them. Very different shape and feel. But he’s referencing a video I did about what the real shape and motion really is. I am getting there but he saw it and jumped the gun.

@@frozendivots1564 I did try and noticed what happened when you go from using the handle to swinging the head. I imagine that's where the splay is activated?

@@PeteR-ji8ik yes, if you use the splay. You either amplify, carry it or lose it. Most Pros carry it. That’s a ‘spiral’. Big brother to that says to amplify it. But that middle joint, 7th degree, pitch joint is key because that’s where it happens. Carry it, amplify it or lose it. It’s the fork in the road. What he noticed is when they merged, power happened and a ‘golf release’ happened.

It is the compression making it not a twist. The extension like the rod in the pendulum. And the shape flips.

@@DennyForrest-pk4kh yes and if you just extend, it’s a slash move. That what people do and that’s why low point is off and power is low. They are just reaching their arm down.

You, Sir, have a great eye

I’ll get ahead of myself because you see and get it. 7 degrees with 14 rotations working into 1. The 7th is the divider also in space or where that joint is. That’s why the inversion is there. What someone like Hovland is doing is getting it there and ‘carrying it’ through. Now you need the spine angle and all the rest. In other words it’s more like a carrying of a plane (for him) rather than inverting and recruiting. That 7 (also the middle of 14 to the 1) is that flat spot on the real swing shape I posted, also in the middle. Not coincidence, it’s nature. The numbers line up because nature does.

I understand it and my mind is blown. The 14,7 and 1 make it eerie.

What were the numbers from the other video, the shape one.

@@DennyForrest-pk4kh the irrational, etc of the golden ratio? That gets really into the weeds and that’s why I pulled it. It’s using nature and frequency with geometry to show what nature is showing us, but you can’t see it. You can’t see it because it’s either too slow, too fast or just not visible in our spectrum. But it’s there. The golden ratio is a just a small part of it and there is a source. But people identify with the golden ratio and spirals see that symmetry in golf. When really the big brother of it shows more. That’s what that was about.

@@hclh570 doing a video showing how the club comes up in line.

@@PeteR-ji8ik the splay is a high derivative so it’s gonna take some time to do it in the arc because you aren’t used to the acceleration there. You’ll get it. The splay is good for about 15yds more per club, roughly. But just work on the Vardon or something to get used to getting the club under that trail elbow. Thats keys. You’ll make that a habit then adding the splay will be easier.

@@frozendivots1564 That was my thought as well. The problem I have when try to do the splay - is that my hands out run the shoulder torque (kind of like flipping the wrists).

@@PeteR-ji8ik yes, high speed you are not used to, especially where it happens. But you’ll blend it soon enough. It took my youngest a few weeks, my oldest about 3 months and yet one their friends got it in about 2 days. Different for all.

@@frozendivots1564 I will get it. No doubt about it. Thanks a lot FD. Looking forward to the next video :)

@@punkjazz1962 my email is frozendivots@gmail.com Several groups going and I can add your email to one. Lee and Michael are very good and I alway recommend them along with Bradley Hughes and Jon ‘Lagpressure’ I’ll have to dig into the Rock videos but Lee was all about compression in reach. I think he’s changed, or so I’m told. Not sure why.

Do you start compressing( turn the clubhead out)earlier with the longer clubs. Thinking about Dan Altons instructions..or do you go below elbow with every club?

@@garre71 always below unless you want more trap.

@@DennyForrest-pk4kh yes and you can also ‘B torque’ from there as I call it. Once it gets below the elbow a handle torque will also get the clubhead going up. Less power there but you should get ball first contact. The real power is in the torsion arm. Either way the degrees of freedom dictate it. We work relative to ourselves more than the ground.

Well I am pretty sure you are alot stronger then I am so is there a strength advantage to one over the other?

@@DennyForrest-pk4kh do you mean relative to a splay vs Vardon vs karate chop etc? It’s more about ‘throwing’ into compression and the timing of that. I have two people I am helping that under 5’7” maybe 150lbs and not very strong who are now hitting their 7 irons 190-ish. They gained distance by changing their swing. Does strength help? Yes, for sure. But that should be relative to your goal. Want to drive it 300 and shoot low scores vs driving it 400. I would think the goal is to gain distance thru efficiency and 300 will be enough to play and score well on any course. If you want more, then hit the gym. But the swing doesn’t change. Just choose what fits you. If it’s pure power, you won’t beat the splay done correctly at that time in the motion. But that’s not needed to bomb a ball or shoot low scores.

This video is what I needed. I just hit a bucket of balls and now I know why some were too steep or trapped. I can’t thank you enough. I’ve learned more in the last few days than the last 10 years with other instruction.

I’ll do another video later today. Tough to explain in words alone.

@@frozendivots1564 thank you appreciate it

There are interactions/force/geometry around you that you can’t see, much more than you can see. But knowing how things happen where we can’t see define where we can see. Long story short it helps to decipher what a golfer is doing and one can do, as far as golf goes. I think that video was a response to someone saying the topic was incoherent and unrelated to golf. How motion happens and can be mapped isn’t unrelated to golf. And if one uses mathematics to define nature, they have it backwards and miss the real picture. Frozendivots@gmail.com will be easier.

It depends on if you are in a position to leverage like that early. You load shaft on backswing and the first part of downswing and when you compress, you’ve got some speed and shaft load there. Not sure what you by standard swing but there is little compression there, as I see a standard swing.

@@frozendivots1564I guess that first part of downswing on the splay release video

@@frozendivots1564this is all very interesting to me because I swing it weak all over the course and shoot low 90’s to high 80’s ….this is definatly a much more powerful feeling for me and I can’t wait to try this playing

@@spondiveswandive561 yes you have to work on torsion and when to use it. I’ll do an another video on why you don’t want it early, from a technical point of view. It’s because of the symmetry of what/where is being ‘torqued’. We aren’t cylinders so the effect is different. Our arm has multiple bones and will react differently under torsion. So we have a certain part of the swing arc where it is good and a certain part where it is bad.

@@spondiveswandive561 I’d start with short high torsion pitch shots…just fool around on a practice green for a bit.

I rotate the handle around the head, the opposite way of the backswing motion. That winds the forearms and I work into the Splay and compress.

​@@frozendivots1564Can you show?

I just added a few that show exact moves. Will do more…😉

I think it’s easy to explain but difficult to be understood When not in person. Two different things. People used to hammer Lee, especially on forums. Lee always said what he was doing. There’s a lot of misinformation out there and I know for a fact much of it is intentional, that’s what irks me. But you do a great job, love your channel

@@frozendivots1564 thanks frozen when you break what your doing down and what I’m doing we have many similar motions. It’s all how you present it and how your presentation is perceived, we control 50% the other we have no control over. Stay cool brother it’s hot as crap here in Tennessee right now. Have a great weekend!!

It’s short high derivative move in a small part of the arc. The fastest way to move the club IN THAT segment of the arc (remember that point). The better you load before that while keeping the club in position for it, the faster the club will go. This is why you CAN aim at the ball and not worry about other routing. It’s all related to derivatives. I’ll repost a short derivatives video I did a few months back.

I’m not sure what secret in the dirt means but just trying this without a ball into the ground I can move much more dirt than I could before. It’s so powerful. Is that what you think the secret in the dirt may mean? It means that to me for whatever that’s worth.

@@DennyForrest-pk4kh who know what that really means but I like your take on it better than others I have heard. Your clubhead is moving faster with compression so it should move more dirt.

So the mistake I make now is overcompressing the ball and that’s a mistake I will live with!!! I hit it great when I nail it but my mishits are the opposite as they were but the ball still gets smacked. This is really good stuff. I actually like coming from the top above my shoulder by my ear. Really good contact and power.

@@DennyForrest-pk4kh just keep grooving it and you may need a shaft or lie angle tweak, etc. Going from the ‘ear’ is great. Check out Michael Broderick and Lee Comeaux. That position is ideal for many people.

You’ve got it and it sounds like all you need is that torsion arm for compression. Lee is great. I’m sure he will post again. The problem is trolls who intentionally ruin threads and posts. But Lee knows his stuff and tells the truth. Many others don’t.

The shoulder and hand work against each other. Shoulder forward, hand (fingers) pointing to your right (for a righty). Now you have a torsion arm to compress down. Don’t ’swing the arm’, compress it in extension. Try it with short pitch shots first.

I wouldn’t recommend a twist or a pull. The skater is conserving, we are not. We are not spinning circles and gaining speed inward. Her shape change is in conservation, not gain. That’s velocity gain, not momentum gain. She gains all of her momentum without really a shape change, because she’s going in circles. I’ve got more info in other videos here and much more in others ones if I can find them.

@@frozendivots1564ok, well I’ve no idea what you mean then. First: The skater draws her hands and arms in close to her body and her angular speed increases due to conservation of angular momentum, that’s not my opinion, thats physics. Now when she draws her hands in close to her body then I’m calling that a “change of shape” but I don’t think you are calling it that. Define “change of shape”. Second: bracing against the ground like an anchor point and “twisting” or rotating or turning or whatever word we use is causing the angular momentum in the system to increase, we inject momentum through our effort, so the momentum starts at zero at address and builds up to impact or slightly before maybe. Your idea of momentum building also seems to be something different. Define what you mean when you say the momentum is building as opposed to conserving. You do realise that before momentum can be conserved that it has to be built up or accumulated. What I said in my previous comment is fairly clear I hope but your language is not clear to me at all but of course it’s not simple either. By the way your right arm action video helped me to start to compress the ball at last. I can’t seem to hit it high though, lowish penetrating spinny bullets which I can live with 😊 so thank you again

@@frozendivots1564.. when you say she gains all of her momentum I think you mean speed. In physics angular momentum is angular speed multiplied by mass. However there is moment of inertia also which brings in the shape of the spinning object. The terms are very specific. As the skater draws her arms close and her angular speed increases her momentum is not increasing or decreasing, it is the same. It’s just that she has redistributed her mass which is now “easier” to rotate so the speed rises but the underlying momentum remains the same, anyhow sorry for all the words!

@@cdunne1620 the skater does what I said, I am talking about her pulling of arms in. Thats conserving. She already has the momentum. Now she conserves for velocity. We don’t start in a circle and shrink the same shape. We change shape. Our shape changes the entire swing. How we do that matters. We never get to conserve. Our address shape through impact is change. So we build angular momentum different than a skater spinning in circles. Not sure why my idea of building momentum is ‘different’. Of course we inject angular momentum through effort. The reason you are hitting it low is because your compression isn’t working the club UP. Remember, the videos are answer to a larger group email so I will do another video to fill in that blank. Down is up and up is down. We don’t swing in a spiral, that’s an illusion.

@@cdunne1620 that’s what I said. I used velocity. The angular velocity increases. She already has momentum. She got that from her skate ‘path’.

Lee, in that video, was keeping his trail arm on the trail of his mid-line. Like the cart analogy I did. When it’s to my left it’s on my left. As it moves forward you change to keep it left (I’m a lefty). The cart stays to my trail arm. It’s doesn’t get ‘swiped’ across my mid-line. Now the trail shoulder pressures across but the trail shoulder can’t actually get across. It’s really ALL a push.

@@frozendivots1564 Ahhh ok, I get it, thanks a lot :) You also posted a video (not visible anymore) about delofting with the hands behind the clubhead. Will you make a vidoe on that subject on this channel?

@@PeteR-ji8ik yes that topic sent everyone into a fit. The shaft BENDS in motion. So that hinge with the pressures I showed bends it ahead of hands but delofted. They all want a pic of that but it’s a motion at very high speed.

@@frozendivots1564 Yes it did - things really took off from there. Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it :)

Is there a link to the Hackers thread, where do we go to read that, thanks

Well I am talking to a small group, answering specific questions. Not competing with the popular instructors at all and don’t care to. But I will tell you exactly what’s happening. I won’t say ‘spin your forearm’ (which is nonsense) I will describe exactly what the arm is doing, tell you the degree count of motion and when where and why, usually based on questions. Ask a question and I’ll give you an exact answer. The answer is the same in my garage, taking a shower, mowing my lawn or on a tee box. And No, I won’t do my next video from the shower. 😃

You would do it to correctly to add angular momentum, which is done only through stable shape change with mass recruitment. I’ve got a few other video that go into it. Golfers do not conserve angular momentum, they need to increase it. We can’t add to our mass and we can’t use external forces so we are stuck with shape change and mass recruitment behind the change. It’s not a forearm spin, like I think Cowen talks about. Although I think there is intentional omission going on there. It is a business to some.

@@frozendivots1564 .. ok thanks for the reply. I’ll be trying this out today

Where is your trail humerus aiming? Thats the rifle barrel…the shaft will bend down and the torque will amplify it ‘around’. I’ve gotten videos and people are compressing down their side, humerus aimed behind the ball. You can cheat and get that humerus more forward in whatever way just to feel the sensation of ball first compression. I have a pivot that takes care of that, impossible to early extend and hit it fat. Just need to figure out how to show it.

@@frozendivots1564 I need that pivot! I probably was aimed behind although I was trying to aim at the ball

@@frozendivots1564isn’t it just trail hip back thru the pelvis and a squeeze?

@@andygaspare6207 kind of but the splay needs to be correct for compression to cause translation around and forward. You only think of one thing but multiple things happen. You can’t early extend and your spine is almost clueless as to what’s happening.

@@frozendivots1564 I look forward to this one :)

His dominant hand avoided mid-line as much as possible. How does one work cross-lateral with the spine tilt he had? How does his Forward-Forward drill/motion reconcile with cross-lateral motion?

It doesn’t change at all and should be good to 150+. A heat gun at 120 didn’t melt it. It’s still raining but it’s hotter today. Last summer it was great and I cleared it in the winter a few times and played it and it played like a summer green. It reacted at -10 like it does at 72. I am going to re-do the video while on the green when it clears up. The tee box has held up and I’m assuming the fairway will as well. I’ve hacked the hell out of the tee box and haven’t damaged it at all.

@@frozendivots1564 Wow. That's impressive.

@@goathumper111we will see how it wears. Even synthetic grass has water retention and that’s the balance. That property needs to show longer term reliability. So we will see…

It resists but is overpowered and driven around and a bit up. What you don’t do is spin the torso. The harder you drive it down the greater the release. Kick the trail shoulder out and down and the trail hand is wound the other way. Then it reverses into the ball. It’s the opposite of the short chip shot, where you need no power. Torsion is a power move. You have a Torsion Arm in a power move.

@@frozendivots1564thank you

Yes it does. It recruits more efficiently and generates more power than a jump, rocking, sliding, etc. I have to figure out how to explain what the femur and pelvis is really doing in a way that people can understand and actually do it. In person it’s much easier to explain.

There is no such thing as a true ‘pull’ anywhere, let alone in golf. Bringing something closer to you in orientation, yes, but that action is a push as well. If you ‘pull’ a wagon, your hand is on the other side of the handle pushing it. So I’ll use pull in orientation terms but it’s really a push. And the more compressive the move is (appearing as a pull), the better. Now someone will say gravity, a magnet, etc is a pull. Those are pushes. Put a golf ball on a water bed then set a bowling ball next to it. The heavy bowling ball deforms the bed and the bed will push the golf ball to the bowling ball, if it’s close enough. Planets are pushed, not pulled. You are being compressed to the Earth. So there was a deformation and compression there. So when we change shape in a swing, we want compression. Even pitching ball. Its compressed. Trying pitching a wet ball. Lose compression and you are in trouble. When I am with people golfing I’ll say ‘that was a wet ball’ and they know what I mean. They lost compression or never got it to begin with. But obviously we use the word pull, be too confusing not to. This is a good analogy/image- ‘pull’ a wagon into you but keep going and change shape and ‘push’ it away. See what your arm did?

I don’t have a wagon, lol but I just pretended I did and it did exactly what you said. Brilliant.

@@DennyForrest-pk4kh I did a video a few years back with a wagon and showed that and I got banned and it never was posted. 😅😅😅