First of all, hey from Lorton! Second, I think this is what's going on with my 2014 FLHP. After 30ish miles or so, when I get home and look at the crank case, it's got a decent amount of some type of sludge on it. I'm assuming it's dripping down out of the air filter housing, since when I've taken the air filter off, it's got a decent about of oil built up in there. I may swing down your way one day and have you take a look.
A bit of confirmation bias, but I used to have oil in the airbox and think that was normal. Then I started to have some oil weeping from the rocker covers. Then my bike showed symptoms of running hot and oil pump cavitation. During that time leaks in the oil pan started. All signs that this filter/check valve is plugged or sticking and the hot gas has no where to go. And I currently have none of the oil in the air filter.
and let me guess- the idiots that cut their push rods while changing the cam tensioners, because they didn't want to spend an extra hour removing the tank and rocker boxes end up doing it anyway. This is the NUMBER ONE reason I tell people- DON'T CUT your rods; you need to take a look upstairs, you're NOT saving any time. It's an exercise in stupidity.
Man, you nailed it! My 2005 Electra Glide has 32K and it's just starting to happen to my air cleaner. Gonna take car of this, this week!! Thank you for your time and knowledge, and this video!!
Thanks for great video 🙏🏼 you said the bike is 90k miles , is that mean those cam chain pad never been change before ? I got 08 road king (24k miles) do i need to change the pads yet or not ? Thanks again
When Harley Davidson got away from the EVO and started using all those chains and tensioners in lieu of gears was a nightmare. HD motorcycles are to labor intensive even for the mechanics that work on them. And that huge primary chain rotating in oil is played out 1950’s/1960’s technology other manufacturers got away from years ago and went to four valves per cylinder with two spark plugs HD talks about in 2017 with the Milwaukee 8 after the fact. Gear cam kits helped Harley with this issue, their new revolution max engine eliminated all problematic issues of older engine and they have single oil fill and drain holes with full liquid cooling and full counter balancing thank goodness for someone getting smart.
If you can't or don't want to work on your motorcycle your not much good in my book. Man the hell up. Now as far as a twin cam , these are good engines. The adjuster shoes were just crappy. If good materials had been used they would easily go 50 or 60 thousand miles before inspection. You can also go with the S&S upgrade. If new adjustable pushrods are to be installed then there is no need for the upper end or tank removal and this swap can be done in about an hour, start to finish. Us old bikers love working on our bikes. Its a form of pride. Sure the fuys do farm out their repairs to me from time to time due to work restraints and they know I'm going to take great care with their motorcycle. I've been a master tech for over 40 years. I'm very familiar with all the Harley engines as well as British, Japanese, and European. Get out there and work on your machine. Guys like the fella doing this video help you guys. Learn!!!!!
Good call on taking the rocker covers off, a lot of people say just to cut the pushrods, but they aren't checking the rocker shafts or servicing the head breathers. Doing half a job is sometimes regretable.
Cut pushrods with bolt cutters and use paper clips and rubber bands to hold the lifters up. Saves you a lot of time. Reinstall with new pushrod tubes and adjustable pushrods and you're done
Oh god this is painful. There are many more things that contribute to that problem. The least of which is what this guy is addressing. Please consult an experienced HD technician for the whole story.
book mechanic alert. Just cut the pushrods with a bolt cutter. leave the rocker boxes on. replace with adjustable rods. I have done this job a few times. This guy is going by the book. He would never make money as a flat rate tech.
look....on my twin cam , I pulled both tensioners out, and threw them away. That was almost 20 thousand miles ago........... Why don't you do a video of a motor, running without them ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Good morning Mr. Moore, Our original cam chain tensioner video was not a video to open dialogue on whether or not cam chain tensioners are necessary on Harley motors. The tensioner feature has already been decided by the designers and engineers at Harley. The video intended to share information and educate viewers on how they work, and their importance per the design. With regard to your comment about running these motors without tensioners, we simply don’t recommend it. Timing chains on all engines will wear and stretch over time. The tensioner in any engine is meant to take up that stretch so that the chain, or belt in some cases, does not jump time and destroy the engine. In your case, 20,000 miles is simply not a lot of mileage for any motor so it is not a good measure of your success. Further, if you did not measure deflection of your chain before you removed the tensioners and subsequently measured deflection after 20,000 miles you cannot suggest all is well. Further still, older twin cam engines used a spring tensioner as opposed to newer tensioning systems that use oil pressure. We cannot comment on your motorcycle as you did not reveal which one of these systems you have, however, an owner that would remove a tensioning system that tensions with oil pressure would have to block off the oil passage holes or run the risk of oil pressure loss across the entire system. This long winded point means to suggest that your motorcycle does not represent all the different types of tensioning systems which further supports that the removal of these tensioners is not as simple for everyone and not a good idea. In closing Mr. Moore, we certainly don’t mean to suggest that you have not personally experienced success in the removal of your tensioners. Since we have a small following of viewers and listeners we have a responsibility to protect everybody who reads these comments. That being said, while you may have successfully removed your tensioners you have also removed your engine’s ability to take up the slack of the timing chains as they age and stretch. The removal of these tensioners can give your engine a greater chance of jumping time and we suggest that you re-install your tensioners per Harley specifications. A simple inspection of these tensioners every 30,000 to 35,000 miles while keeping them installed in the engine is all that would be needed to make sure that all areas are covered. Mr. Moore, it is for these reasons that we will not be making a video of a Harley twin cam motor running without tensioners. In all this we do hope that these tensioners systems continue to improve over time so that the past issues of the tensioner pads breaking apart or wearing down prematurely is no longer an issue. Zerk Motors supports factory approved improvments that enhance the riders experience and enjoyment of their motorcycles.
@@zerkmotors3096 Engineers at Harley Davidson are skeemers.... I am not a skeemer... Skeemers trying to control their little world. I am not a skeemer. I only show just how pathetic their little plans really are....
We are going to shoot a CZcams video ; of a twin-cam 88 running with the cam chain tensioners pulled. Then, we are going to look for a Mil-8 motor ; pull the hydraulic tensioners out ; plug the oil feed ; and re-shoot another video of this motor running without those chain tensioners.......
I have said so many times that whenever i cracked open a cam chest I install a gear cam set in and call it a day. Now why Harley does not use gear cams is beyond me.
runout on them will crack the gears over time, and they are make more noise. best would be gears on inside and chain on the outside. nobody makes that.... with the new cam bearings outside and adjustable rods, this would be a pice of coffecake.
When the twin cam first came out, the local dealer tried to sell me their first model. They took that bike to have it dyno'd and the cam chest blew up! I kept my evo for 30 years. I had enough problems with my evo. Just bought a M8. So far so 👍
I've done a lot of reading on this subject and it seems that the only reason those plastic shoes were installed (interior & Exterior)was to reduce chain noise, they're not keeping the chain tight so it doesn't pop off of the sprocket. But hey, what do I know?
Fixing to do one of my other bikes for shits and giggles. I'm going to try the gear drive on that one. I may machine me something to gear drive the cams as well.
Also, the 05 model year and the years behind 05 (the spring tensionor years) were known to have issues as low as 20k and as far as 40k. Some a little longer. I took mine down at 18k. It was o.k. but I did it anyway. My bike had been babied. Bought it used but knew the history. Very informative video. Thank you for your time and effort.
Richard, my 2002 Low Rider has 15,000 miles on it. I’m considering just replacing the spring tensioner with the hydraulic kit at 18,000 just as you did, just for peace of mind. I don’t quite have the tools or space but a buddy does . How big a job is it to change to the hydraulic kit? I’m guessing even just updating the hydraulic kit with cam plate takes hours with removing tank and rocker boxes etc Also did you replace the cam bearings
Nice matter of fact & informative video. I gotta fix my 02 heritage for that reason & like this video more than any other I've seen. Thank u. Im gonna go ahead and do the hydraulic upgrade since my chain also seems to have some wear. If I gotta replace more than just pads it cost basically the same toupgrade it all.
The first time one checks the tensioners is a good opportunity to upgrade to SE or aftermarket cams, and the pre '06's can also upgrade to a billet cam support plate, higher capacity oil pump, and hydraulic tensioners.
'89 XLH1200: I have a sound that sounds like a metal object ringing a bell sound, thought it was keys hitting the horn shroud, but it's not. I'm wondering if it's cam chain play???
I'm about to switch my 05 ST over to a gear drive but I heard tell if you polish the casting marks off the chains you get more life out of the stock pads...thats if you decide to keep them
Harley junk! If Harley would have pin the crankshaft like S&S they could have used gear driven system but with the money saving pressed fit crankshaft Harley needs to use these plastic tensioners . To check the inner tensioner is a major job, this type of maintenance is way to hard for most people cause these tensioners could last long or not there's no way of knowing the life of them. Don't forget Harley dealers will fuck you every time.
YUP - you nailed it... and Harley should have pinned it- just like you said. To make matters worse- they designed this piece of garbage and then refused to acknowledge the issue but- they'll gladly sell you the ScreaminEagle 'upgrade' kit cuz- well, $24K wasn't enough to spend for the bike apparently. My 2006 Nightrain WILL be my LAST Harley. I still have both my Evos and they run awesome, both with over 60K on them - one of them needed a front head gasket and a stator; the other, rear cylinder rings and blew a rivot plate on the clutch--- that's it- 60K on each bike.
@@goodboyringo9716 Yep it seems that way .I read they used timken bearings from 1955. (The old saying ), if it ain't broke , don't fix it comes to mind )
@@John-ob7dh ... Not only that but Harley doesn't support ( with parts ) any older bikes . I have a 2000 Road King that I bought new . It has about 25,000 miles and now I can't buy parts from Harley. This is only one reason I don't respect HD any more. I'will never buy a new Harley again.
First of all, hey from Lorton! Second, I think this is what's going on with my 2014 FLHP. After 30ish miles or so, when I get home and look at the crank case, it's got a decent amount of some type of sludge on it. I'm assuming it's dripping down out of the air filter housing, since when I've taken the air filter off, it's got a decent about of oil built up in there. I may swing down your way one day and have you take a look.
very instructive video, I will check mine.
A bit of confirmation bias, but I used to have oil in the airbox and think that was normal. Then I started to have some oil weeping from the rocker covers. Then my bike showed symptoms of running hot and oil pump cavitation. During that time leaks in the oil pan started. All signs that this filter/check valve is plugged or sticking and the hot gas has no where to go. And I currently have none of the oil in the air filter.
if pinion shaft tolerance allows, put a gear drive in. never worry again.
Great video thanks
Mine has just over 30k and stared puking. Thanx!!!
and let me guess- the idiots that cut their push rods while changing the cam tensioners, because they didn't want to spend an extra hour removing the tank and rocker boxes end up doing it anyway. This is the NUMBER ONE reason I tell people- DON'T CUT your rods; you need to take a look upstairs, you're NOT saving any time. It's an exercise in stupidity.
Wonder why the second cam is not just driven by a front sprocket also. Thus deleting the back chain and tensioner.. ?? Seams so simple
Man, you nailed it! My 2005 Electra Glide has 32K and it's just starting to happen to my air cleaner. Gonna take car of this, this week!! Thank you for your time and knowledge, and this video!!
Skip to the 10 minute mark. Everything else is redundant dialogue prior to that.
My breathing strainer fasteners we're loose @51k
Getting new cams,oil pump and cam gears in my 96 cubic inch Twin Cam.
Thanks for your help mate, much appreciated. 👍😊🇬🇧
Thanks for great video 🙏🏼 you said the bike is 90k miles , is that mean those cam chain pad never been change before ? I got 08 road king (24k miles) do i need to change the pads yet or not ? Thanks again
I'm late.... But check the inner cam bearings when the cams are out.
When Harley Davidson got away from the EVO and started using all those chains and tensioners in lieu of gears was a nightmare. HD motorcycles are to labor intensive even for the mechanics that work on them. And that huge primary chain rotating in oil is played out 1950’s/1960’s technology other manufacturers got away from years ago and went to four valves per cylinder with two spark plugs HD talks about in 2017 with the Milwaukee 8 after the fact. Gear cam kits helped Harley with this issue, their new revolution max engine eliminated all problematic issues of older engine and they have single oil fill and drain holes with full liquid cooling and full counter balancing thank goodness for someone getting smart.
What is the recommended inspection period for oil adjusted tensioners?
I put the SE plate and pump in and S&S Tensioners in mine.
If you can't or don't want to work on your motorcycle your not much good in my book. Man the hell up. Now as far as a twin cam , these are good engines. The adjuster shoes were just crappy. If good materials had been used they would easily go 50 or 60 thousand miles before inspection. You can also go with the S&S upgrade. If new adjustable pushrods are to be installed then there is no need for the upper end or tank removal and this swap can be done in about an hour, start to finish. Us old bikers love working on our bikes. Its a form of pride. Sure the fuys do farm out their repairs to me from time to time due to work restraints and they know I'm going to take great care with their motorcycle. I've been a master tech for over 40 years. I'm very familiar with all the Harley engines as well as British, Japanese, and European. Get out there and work on your machine. Guys like the fella doing this video help you guys. Learn!!!!!
Good call on taking the rocker covers off, a lot of people say just to cut the pushrods, but they aren't checking the rocker shafts or servicing the head breathers. Doing half a job is sometimes regretable.
Cut pushrods with bolt cutters and use paper clips and rubber bands to hold the lifters up. Saves you a lot of time. Reinstall with new pushrod tubes and adjustable pushrods and you're done
I junked mine at 30k went to a hydraulic system. No more tensioner BS.
Could it be the round umbrella seal like flaps go bad as well from heat ..? Not sealing as well.
Oh god this is painful. There are many more things that contribute to that problem. The least of which is what this guy is addressing. Please consult an experienced HD technician for the whole story.
book mechanic alert. Just cut the pushrods with a bolt cutter. leave the rocker boxes on. replace with adjustable rods. I have done this job a few times. This guy is going by the book. He would never make money as a flat rate tech.
look....on my twin cam , I pulled both tensioners out, and threw them away. That was almost 20 thousand miles ago........... Why don't you do a video of a motor, running without them ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Good morning Mr. Moore, Our original cam chain tensioner video was not a video to open dialogue on whether or not cam chain tensioners are necessary on Harley motors. The tensioner feature has already been decided by the designers and engineers at Harley. The video intended to share information and educate viewers on how they work, and their importance per the design. With regard to your comment about running these motors without tensioners, we simply don’t recommend it. Timing chains on all engines will wear and stretch over time. The tensioner in any engine is meant to take up that stretch so that the chain, or belt in some cases, does not jump time and destroy the engine. In your case, 20,000 miles is simply not a lot of mileage for any motor so it is not a good measure of your success. Further, if you did not measure deflection of your chain before you removed the tensioners and subsequently measured deflection after 20,000 miles you cannot suggest all is well. Further still, older twin cam engines used a spring tensioner as opposed to newer tensioning systems that use oil pressure. We cannot comment on your motorcycle as you did not reveal which one of these systems you have, however, an owner that would remove a tensioning system that tensions with oil pressure would have to block off the oil passage holes or run the risk of oil pressure loss across the entire system. This long winded point means to suggest that your motorcycle does not represent all the different types of tensioning systems which further supports that the removal of these tensioners is not as simple for everyone and not a good idea. In closing Mr. Moore, we certainly don’t mean to suggest that you have not personally experienced success in the removal of your tensioners. Since we have a small following of viewers and listeners we have a responsibility to protect everybody who reads these comments. That being said, while you may have successfully removed your tensioners you have also removed your engine’s ability to take up the slack of the timing chains as they age and stretch. The removal of these tensioners can give your engine a greater chance of jumping time and we suggest that you re-install your tensioners per Harley specifications. A simple inspection of these tensioners every 30,000 to 35,000 miles while keeping them installed in the engine is all that would be needed to make sure that all areas are covered. Mr. Moore, it is for these reasons that we will not be making a video of a Harley twin cam motor running without tensioners. In all this we do hope that these tensioners systems continue to improve over time so that the past issues of the tensioner pads breaking apart or wearing down prematurely is no longer an issue. Zerk Motors supports factory approved improvments that enhance the riders experience and enjoyment of their motorcycles.
@@zerkmotors3096 Engineers at Harley Davidson are skeemers.... I am not a skeemer... Skeemers trying to control their little world. I am not a skeemer. I only show just how pathetic their little plans really are....
We are going to shoot a CZcams video ; of a twin-cam 88 running with the cam chain tensioners pulled. Then, we are going to look for a Mil-8 motor ; pull the hydraulic tensioners out ; plug the oil feed ; and re-shoot another video of this motor running without those chain tensioners.......
Can anyone tell me will a 07 hydronic plate bolt right up in place of 05 spring tension plate ?
I have said so many times that whenever i cracked open a cam chest I install a gear cam set in and call it a day. Now why Harley does not use gear cams is beyond me.
runout on them will crack the gears over time, and they are make more noise. best would be gears on inside and chain on the outside. nobody makes that.... with the new cam bearings outside and adjustable rods, this would be a pice of coffecake.
CRANK SHAFT RUNOUT! DISASTER JUST FOUND A HOME! 😬
When the twin cam first came out, the local dealer tried to sell me their first model. They took that bike to have it dyno'd and the cam chest blew up! I kept my evo for 30 years. I had enough problems with my evo. Just bought a M8. So far so 👍
Does anyone knows the parts number on Harley web site?
How I permanently fixed both my twin cam chain tensioners. I sold them and bought a 98 Evo Farboy and problem solved.
Would it run o.k. With the tensioners removed ?
I've done a lot of reading on this subject and it seems that the only reason those plastic shoes were installed (interior & Exterior)was to reduce chain noise, they're not keeping the chain tight so it doesn't pop off of the sprocket. But hey, what do I know?
Your timing will jump without the tensioners.
Makes me even more glad for swapping my twincam for an evo. Great info though.
Fixing to do one of my other bikes for shits and giggles. I'm going to try the gear drive on that one. I may machine me something to gear drive the cams as well.
Do you check cam or flywheel runout?
Also, the 05 model year and the years behind 05 (the spring tensionor years) were known to have issues as low as 20k and as far as 40k. Some a little longer. I took mine down at 18k. It was o.k. but I did it anyway. My bike had been babied. Bought it used but knew the history. Very informative video. Thank you for your time and effort.
Richard, my 2002 Low Rider has 15,000 miles on it. I’m considering just replacing the spring tensioner with the hydraulic kit at 18,000 just as you did, just for peace of mind. I don’t quite have the tools or space but a buddy does . How big a job is it to change to the hydraulic kit? I’m guessing even just updating the hydraulic kit with cam plate takes hours with removing tank and rocker boxes etc Also did you replace the cam bearings
05 was the last of the spring tensioners. 06 Dyna series got the hydrologic tensioner. 07 they were standard through the brand.
Nice matter of fact & informative video. I gotta fix my 02 heritage for that reason & like this video more than any other I've seen. Thank u. Im gonna go ahead and do the hydraulic upgrade since my chain also seems to have some wear. If I gotta replace more than just pads it cost basically the same toupgrade it all.
The first time one checks the tensioners is a good opportunity to upgrade to SE or aftermarket cams, and the pre '06's can also upgrade to a billet cam support plate, higher capacity oil pump, and hydraulic tensioners.
Where do I buy this at? I can't seem to find it
Alex Seme, These replacements are Harley factory parts. You can get them at your local Harley dealer. They come in a kit of two.
'89 XLH1200: I have a sound that sounds like a metal object ringing a bell sound, thought it was keys hitting the horn shroud, but it's not. I'm wondering if it's cam chain play???
Xlh evolution motor is gear drive cams. Bad lifter? Broken valve spring, worn cam etc. Goid luck
A little to clean for credibility? Where is the oil film?
Great video I've added a link for an easy solution czcams.com/video/ONxDmoWSheY/video.html
Also make sure the bolt holes have ZERO oil in them or you can pop a hole in your head when you tighten the bolts down
Do you take off both rocker box covers?
I'm about to switch my 05 ST over to a gear drive but I heard tell if you polish the casting marks off the chains you get more life out of the stock pads...thats if you decide to keep them
Bring back the EVO.
this is not a big issu, it was in the early once, but early evo was shit also, late shovel was good...
Harley junk! If Harley would have pin the crankshaft like S&S they could have used gear driven system but with the money saving pressed fit crankshaft Harley needs to use these plastic tensioners . To check the inner tensioner is a major job, this type of maintenance is way to hard for most people cause these tensioners could last long or not there's no way of knowing the life of them. Don't forget Harley dealers will fuck you every time.
YUP - you nailed it... and Harley should have pinned it- just like you said. To make matters worse- they designed this piece of garbage and then refused to acknowledge the issue but- they'll gladly sell you the ScreaminEagle 'upgrade' kit cuz- well, $24K wasn't enough to spend for the bike apparently. My 2006 Nightrain WILL be my LAST Harley. I still have both my Evos and they run awesome, both with over 60K on them - one of them needed a front head gasket and a stator; the other, rear cylinder rings and blew a rivot plate on the clutch--- that's it- 60K on each bike.
My 2002 fat boy is solid crank . I wonder why they did not stick with that.
@@John-ob7dh .... 2002 was the last year for Tenken bearings also. Money , makes the world go around.
@@goodboyringo9716 Yep it seems that way .I read they used timken bearings from 1955. (The old saying ), if it ain't broke , don't fix it comes to mind )
@@John-ob7dh ... Not only that but Harley doesn't support ( with parts ) any older bikes . I have a 2000 Road King that I bought new . It has about 25,000 miles and now I can't buy parts from Harley. This is only one reason I don't respect HD any more. I'will never buy a new Harley again.
Excellent explanation. Thanks for posting this video.