What's in Patriot's Warhead: Crash reveals jib system
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- A nosedive on Patriot strips the foredeck of it's fairings, drawing attention to the novel jib system beneath. But how does it compare to the payloads being carried by the other Cup teams?
Recon video and photos credit to Recon Photographer / @America's Cup
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#AmericasCup #AC37Recon #AC37 - Sport
I didn’t understand 99% of that but loved every bit of it as usual
Lol! Same.
Spatial thinking is not something most are comfortable with
so don't feel to bad
@@bobdillon1138 It's not so much that, as some of us aren't sailors and so the entire lexicon is a mystery.
@@dominiclloyd6651 Neither am i but got the general gist of it.
Me neither, but I pretend like I do. Then I spew non-sense to people with less knowledge like I'm an expert.
You know your sailing, Mozzy. The things you spot others miss is just amazing.
Well spotted Tom. The two jib sheet layout is super neat and I would guess this is a much lighter solution particularly if the jib boom boys have some water sloshing around in the bow garage. No doubt they will have load cells on each sheet so they will know the ratio of distribution.
I adopted on my Hanse Yacht 300 the Alinghi system with a fiddle block with becket and a double jib sheets. It works well!
I switched over to the double jib sheet system on my i14 follow the 2022 worlds and seeing how simple Archies system was. It took a minute to wrap my head around how it worked but once you understand it, its dead simple. While doing this transition, We got a new 3di north jib and just had two clew points put, one as far aft as possible on the sail and one that runs almost straight forward. The amount of control that you have over the sail shape is crazy!
Are you running 2 separate sheets then, or is there a sheet and a differential control?
@@Robinlarsson83 We are running a differential control line that can be run to each rack
I gotta say, that zipper fairing/cover on American magic is genius!
That does looks cool. Luna Rossa who I need to show another time also have a cool sliding carbon plate cover
@@MozzySails Considering the yawning gaps for the mainsheets on these boats I was surprised nobody had introduced covers there yet. The video that is on the public stream didn't really suggest there was this much going on up front. Very interesting. I like the zip track for the mast rotation arms on the US boat too. The combination line setup on Alinghi seems elegant, and seems to speak to how for instance the INEOS boat's mainsheet and jib don't have a huge amount of active differential. It seems like there was an effort to go find out just how much of each trim was necessary, and then the systems got pared back. Whereas the ETNZ/OE system left all that adjustability on board. It reminds me of the Lotus 77 "Adjustacar". They effectively built more range of adjustment into it than proved useful and ended up with a relative dog. Though watching OE's form on their first couple days of running, they seem to have gotten to grips with it pretty well.
Really interesting to see that the jib boom appears to have made a comeback at the top level! Did not see that coming. The Shape of the fairing on RB3 suggests that they may have a stubby boom under there, as opposed to the potentially full length on the ETNZ/OE boat.
Last point, is that it's interesting how much hull depth is being taken up with these systems, contrast with the tracks on the deck of T6. Makes for a completely different structural puzzle for the engineers.
The simplest possible solution to a specific problem is always the best one. However it relies on how well one has understood the problem, and how well one has explored the 'system' in total. I would think it is a choice between Alinghi and INEOS - but that impression is only from what you have presented to us.
Since that simplest solution is known (I14) then I believe that is the warning flag that it is likely not the best system, in that all the teams must have looked at it. Usually when there is a “best” solution, designers collapse on that solution, when no one knows what is best you get this wide variance.
Thanks! Love that amazing video again!
With the two sheet system on Alinghi, as the clew gets sheeted very close to the deck & the relative tension in both lines increases and approaches equality, the smallest tension change in one line will have a relatively large influence on sheeting angle - basically meaning that the system becomes over-sensitive. Small adjustments of each sheet have a big influence on sheeting angle, making the trim quite coarse and difficult to fine tune.
Having run with this system for 15 years. It’s not super sensitive. Nothing a 4:1 or hydraulics can’t handle..
The shorter the length the less actual change in angle is happening as all three points get closer together. What you get is greater load differential though.
Great analysis. It would be great to see a comparison series that compares the known approaches to hull designs (above the deck and below may be 2 episodes) and so on as the race gets closer and more details become less variable.
I'm enjoying the fact that every aspect of these yachts is open for the competitors to develop. Each will have a strength in one area but how the whole package comes together is critical. It could be that the winning team doesn't get any one particular area judged number one but across the board have most areas scoring close to the best, if you know what I mean.
Then there is the sailing and trimming in the varying conditions which may prove critical. Time on the water above and beyond the development may Trump all.
Grazie per il lavoro che fai! ❤
I wonder how much inspiration they can take from what they have done with the main sail controls. Would be interesting to compare how the controls differ? Not sure I fully get how big a difference the 2 skin main makes through. That might be an interesting topic too.
Super interesting that there is so many solutions to the same thing and that the differences are sill visable and mechanical. Cheers
Yeah would be interesting to see what effect the two main skins moving back and forth, or whatever TNZ do, have on power etc
Great to see you at your genius sleuthing again, Tom. Well done.
Alinghi’s simplicity is appealing. If they mount the track deeper under the foredeck would that defer the problem of the two sheets pulling against each other?
It all makes sense to me but I sailed Skiffs and other dinghys competitively for 20 years. I would love to see under the foredeck on the other entries. Cheers Mozzy. Getting close now mate to the cup. Can't wait! Going to be epic.😁🙏🇦🇺
Nice spotting and commentary. Like you I like the 2 sheet system but so that tension remains constant with AoA the fixed point needs to be close to the forestay . This implies a large space for the arc of movement for hydraulics under deck similar to a jib boom. Interesting issue with foredeck volume and self bailing as exposed by American Magic . Keep up the good work
Cheers
Your arguments for the Alinghi system has me convinced. I just wonder if the reason that there seems to be two different thinkings comes down to what they each believe best can handle the loads.
I also like the simplicity of the Alinghi system.
As Colin Chapman, the founder/manager of Lotus F1 team said “Simplify and add lightness.” With that in mind, I think the Alinghi jib set up seems preferable.
Thanks.
Alinghi system seems simple and the best.
3:07 Aviators used to be a bad idea in cycling crashes, which is why everyone moved to plastic wraparounds.
two sheets on a sail used to be illegal since Sopwith on the j boats. has the rule changed
Fascinating insights. Did Alinghi or ETNZ do any mods to their AC40/LEQ boats where they would have been able to get some idea on gains?. Last time round the VMG/High mode advantages of the Kiwis and LRPP seemed crucial, assume this is focus here although not sure I understand what would be required to sail deeper and faster downwind.
I love your content Moz - I understand about 50% - but I still love it - and I'm getting excited about the cup. Any news / thoughts / updates / insight about Ineos Britannia?
i think the 2 sheets system looks more functional because the 1 sheet system seems to have a really restrictive options movement.... at least in this case....
Agreed, I will always take a little more complication to save weight!!! As long as there is a simple “chicken switch” to release the whole thing in a panic.
Still, all the systems are extremely clever.
Pretty sure there is a way of sealing up the forward garage on American Magic system……
We have to take in context. If on the open ocean give me a block and pulley. But this is scraping everything out of everything to make these boats win. So break away panels, ok, probably going to kill someone. Hydraulic sheeting on Jib? Hell ya!. You'd get much better control of jib. Without a a doubt. I don't relishing it from a sailing stand point that computers are taking over sailing but it could be. Now there would be a build!
I think what you see in the foredeck for jib sheeting is what you get. I see no need for anything else between everything seen on the hydraulic arm, the track, and the cables. With a flexible deck cover and adequate drainage, that is it. No need for more weight.
So huge asymetrics will be next thing on AC boats? Ho ho ho 😁
Double trouble but would be interesting, when viewed from the shore or best of all, the bar.
Either for the main sail and the jib there’s a big miss: Italian’s. Are they remained to a cup ago sheets systems or there’s a lack of info?
Love it as always - but a little lost on this one in terms of the ‘why it matters’ - could you convert some of the explanation into analogies that describe the pros/cons? ie power gains, tacking speed, weight etc, and how impactful this stuff is.
I trying to sort a discussion with North Sails, solely on trimming, masts and rigging and what shapes the teams may aim for. Hopefully that will fill in some blanks
Alinghy - KISS
Looks like OE is using Vivobarefoot shoes. Official gear?
I been getting the feeling Alinghi is gonna be fast
Tells me AM is fragile. Pumping? Here we go again?
Hull breach potential?
What about LR? Which solution does she apply?
She looks to have a sliding cover, and the olny glimpse of the track looks like it's angled like a more standard jib track, similar to INEOS. But it's hard to see as there aren't too many photos
American magic is going to struggle with controlling rudder/foil systems like last time. Fast but unstable
Worries me that they are already crashing their boat. 🤦♂️
Any video of the crash??
unfortunately it seems the recon just missed it
You keep talking about the need to adjust for a downwind course but even when moving down wind these boats are so fast that the apparent wind will always be basically the same no matter what the course is.
Or am I mistaken?
I think it's more like normal yachts need to adjust the jib for upwind, but downwind it is not necessary. Whereas in this case it is necessary both up and down wind equally (for exactly the reasons you specified).
@@OliverBatchelor What I am saying is regardless of going up- or downwind the apparent wind is always the same so where is the need to adjust?
@@PetervanGinneken Different wind conditions, different sails etc.
@@OliverBatchelor i get that but that is what you set between races. Not during.
Just like the c-class cats, downwind they’ll sail with deeper sails.. So for the jib, it’ll be sheeted out, but harder down the leach.
KISS principle
Vorrei sapere se gli altri team anno il tempo per modificare il sistema di scotta della randa adeguandolo a quelli della barca neozelandese che usa un sistema a carrello con dei pistoni idraulici montato sul ponte ? Grazie
Hopefully not😊
@@TheCruisingKiwis😜
No, ma non ha senso devi guardare al contesto dei meccanismi. Questo e' u n particolare ma la barca e' fatta si 300 dispositivi. Certo ogni team ha le sue soluzioni e alcune sono segrete ancora. Abbiamo si e no visto il 10% della tecnologia.
what about LR?
Answered just above. Little infos but apparently on the Inos side.
How come they don’t use code zeros downwind?
Dont quote me as i am not sure I understand but the apparent wind across these boats when going down wind is not downwind if you get my gist.
They developed code zeros for the last cup but never used them. Two reasons, too much drag and changing a sail during a foiling race wasn't considered ideal
@@unsolicitedopinion101 What does it mean about the drag? How does that happen?
Code zeros being a light quickly stowable sail are hard to make efficient, especially as their downwind apparent wind angle downwind is ~15-18°. The power generated is not worth the extra drag, better to just create deeper more powerful shape with the more heavily structured sails you already have.
@@MozzySails Thanks Mozzy.
Da quello che ho capito è che Alinghi adotta un sistema di regolazione della scotta del fiocco più semplice di Ineos e Alinghi (manca quello adottato di Luna Rossa ed è un peccato che tu non l'abbia esaminato) e adifferenza dei quali, utilizza una rotaia unica su cui l'angolo della scotta viene regolato da due cime attaccate a due punti diversi dell'angolo della vela. Esatto?
L'incidente di American Magic è dipeso dallo strappo dell'attacco di angolo di scotta del fiocco in poche parole? Quello che non ho capito è il motivo della rottura.
Quel che è interessante, e spero che tu ne offra un altro contributo, è il sistema di regolazione delle scotte delle vele della randa di tutte le imbarcazioni partecipanti. Potresti farlo?
Grazie per i tuoi contributi sempre professionali.
Forza Luna Rossa
Ti prego fai un contributo su Luna Rossa: aspetti positivi e negativi delle soluzioni adottate?
Best time to have failures I guess. They've been here before. Hopefully we get to see them at their best. All the best Team USA.
I’m sorry, I love Mozzy’s analysis, but I really don’t like the direction of the Cup, I know we should push forward, and it’s fantastic, but I do long for it to go back to actual sailing, I have foiled, but I am left with a feeling of being disconnected to the water, and to have professional cyclists as crew seems very wrong to me, those kids in optimists and lasers, who won’t get a chance to sail because they are not cyclists seems very wrong, yes I will be watching the cup, but wish for the winner to return the cup to actual sailing
Whatever happened to " sheet in the main ! " it was simple !
There's more power to be had. Who doesn't want more power when racing?
Sorry mozzy but 10€ a month minimum for watching an minute long interview with Bernasconi or so its 🙈🙉🤒 sorry...
A bit normal pricing would be enough. ..
Have you been to the community page and seen the members posts there?
It really sucks that you're charging to watch content.... unsubscribed.
Not really, but anyway do as you must