Alcos battle 2 1/2% Keating Summit grade, 6 06 09
Vložit
- čas přidán 12. 06. 2009
- Four WNY&P Alco's are at the skillful hand of engineer Brain Welch as he gets a run for the fight up the 2 1/2% grade to Keating Summit at MP113. We are on the old PRR (PC NS) Buffalo line. As he passes at the bottom of the grade, you can hear it has already slowed down when the hind end passes. We paced him for a very short period half way up, and the girls are down on their knees working their hearts out. We then go to the summit of the grade to catch it cresting. As Brain notches the throttle back, first one unit quits, then a second. The train was brought to a stop at CP Liberty to try to restart the hot Alco's. Then a third unit quit. The units where hot from the 11 mph pull up the grade. So hot, they couldn't start them unless they had gloves on. Two where back on line, but the C430 #431 would not start. Brain later got her fired up at the engine terminal at Olean. It was truely a battle of Alco's, and the mountainous grades. Thanks for looking Jackmp294
All parts of this video and trademark are protected. Copy or use is forbidden by law.
copyright Jackmp294.5™ © 2009
do not use without permission... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
That's what north-central, PA railroading is all about, often un-noticed because the Class I's backed out of this area, but great oppurtunities to find hardcore shortline action with classic engines climbing big hills. I really wish the area was as busy as it was years ago.
WOW!! Very nice work Jack. A very different perspective from this view too. Yeah ... the ALCO's were really strutting their stuff and sounding pretty brawny that day ... and yes, the sand sure was flying too!! We too had a fun week working the DFT and battlin' the mountain!!!
Yes it was Bob a fantastic sight, and Brain is a true expert at putting these great machines to work. Hope everything is going well with you in the UK. Take care, Jack...
Yes! We all had a great time, and thanks for the show. Jack
Awesome vid, love the sound of those old boys working their guts out! Great job! The Buffalo line is great for fanning.
The skill comes in knowing the size, length, and tonage of your train so that you know when to get a run for the hill without braking company rules. Wet leaves, rain, snow, and weather also has a lot to do with your climb to the summit. Then you are dealing with 40+ year old units that are not as dependable as they use to be. Weigh in all these factors, and YES!!! It takes skill to traverse the incline...
Brian has the skill to get them up, and get them back down the hill. Hats off to him...
Thanks Ian. Hard to believe there are still some around. They are getting ready to put two more into service. 41 which is having MU problems, and 47 on its way. Thanks for watching. Take care, Jack
gotta love the canadian alcos doing there finest work making and sounding great.
Glad you enjoyed it Bob, and I agree about keeping these fine machines running. But with units pushing 40 years old, and out of production for years, I think its only a matter of time. Not to mention, the class 1's will be purging themselves of older EMD's that have parts available yet. So these railroads are like opperating museums. Take care, Jack
What an amazing sight Jack, awesome power in the hands of an expert...fantastic video and thanks for sharing it...5* Bob
According to an old CN hog head "nothing pulls like those Alco C-630 and 636 locomotives. This shows just how hard they work.
Thanks for the complements and 5*. Alco's are tops on my list also, and nothing sounds as good as them. Many people don't even read the info boxes, as I get lots of emails asking "where is this, when was it shot" I just tell them to go to the info section. Its in there. Glad you enjoyed the clip, and take care. Jack
awsome video, love the scenery and the alcos
Interesting Video Jack, this is quite an impressive grade for these alco's to hit. Im surprised thses Alco's did as well as they do here.. This is how freight is supposed to be pulled, the hard way.
Jack, Great footage as usual! I really enjoy your vids
It used to be a double rail system , My whole family worked for the railroad out Emporium ,miss those days
Great video. I know the area well. Was born in Renovo but moved to Levittown PA in my first year. Morrisville yard became my area. My family was born and raised in Renovo and all worked for the Pennsy. We spent many weeks in Renovo when I grew up though. It was common then for 100 to 110 trains with pushers out of Emporium. I still have seen pushers occasionally there. NS runs a much bigger engine though over that stretch.
Liked the video Thanks
Wayne Dibert
They were hard to beat in their day, always loved the engine sounds.
The sand was flying!!!!
Great video! An epic battle!
Thanks, Rich...
We have used SD 40s on Keating Summit too ... a much better puller and everything usually works. One rarely has to get an all out run for the climb with EMDs in order to get as far up the hill as possible, or through a tight curve before the locomotives make transition ... or back of the throttle repeated times in dicey spots. Being right on the edge of a stall for upwards of 30 minutes at a time, and coaxing them ole ALCOs up the mountain demands much more than Notch 8 and sand.
Thank you for sharing.
Great engines with a “human-like” personality, like when someone passes out from running too hard and can’t be revived until he/she cools down if you know what I mean.
Yes. I knew the engineer, and he said the same thing. The conductor tried to restart them after they cooled down. Thanks for watching...
Dave,
More than Likely, it wasn't Brain. I Brain was working the Hornell job last week, and just covering the DFT for a while. I too, want to get back up there. Video just doesn't do it justice. The sound coming up under the bridge was deafening, and fantastic. Thanks for watching,
Jackmp294
Sweet catch jack! 5* Rich
That is just spot on!!!!
Everything is fine over here Jack, and I hope all is well with you...Bob
Awesome climb up the grade. That would be a steep pull for any locomotive. 5*
theres no tunnel on this line I know I used to be a conductor for Conrail.thats why Conrail used to run autoracks up this way to Buffalo.I guess the grade was a "train killer"for Conrail and NS,although I guess NS still runs a few once in awhile when theres a derailment above Taylor junction (where the DH and Lehigh lines come together.
Thanks brickly for your comment. I have a good friend that was an engineer on this line in Conrail days. He does have some neat stories that he shares about Keating. I especially like the one he told me about the trainmaster telling the crew how to handle the hill. Geeezzz. Thanks for watching...
That was the reason for GE (Cooper-Bessemer's) success over Alco. CB narrowed the block via the use of a slave connecting rod for one side of the engine. That enabled CB to put the air boxes on the side, like EMD does, and allows for cooler air to be charged, and also for it to take a more direct route through the engine (hence the louder "bark" on GE's). Alco never used one-piece "powerpacks", they insisted on using separate heads and liners. Relapping is a pain.
No, we do not run super heavy tonnage trains up Keating Summit. 40 - 48 loads or 10 -12 loads per locomotive is about the max we can handle with the ole' Alcos ... but, the same held true for the SD 40s too, they just handled the task a bit better and ya' felt more assurance that there would be no problems during the ascent. I'd love to try a pair of SD 70 Macs or some big GE 4400 AC's .. or anything remotely modern! LOL Yes, by all means my friend, you should venture up here if you ever can.
from route 155, how do i get to the bridge that the train goes under as it pulls the hill? i live in olean next to the tracks and love it when the train goes by.
i saw a coal train sitting in port waiting to pull the grade southbound with 6 pulling and 3 pushing
Jack,
Can't say enough good things about your footage. I was lucky enough to be able to witness a similar scene yesterday... 636, 630, 637, and 638 led a similar train up the hill, just as in your video, but it was all he could do to make the summit. Don't know if it was Brian running, but my hat is off to whoever it was! The audio coming up the gorge as I paced him was like nothing I've ever heard before - overwhelming! I will definitely be going back to capture it! Great job!
Dave
CP359
does NS run on these tracks too?
Sad these scenes are all but a memory now. GEs just don’t put on shows like this.
It is possible to go up the mountain if your rail is long enough.
If there is a tunnel on the line Gary, I never found it. That is a pretty good hill, if you got a heavy load on. Thanks for watching...
Was this once double track?
Yes it was. Just a shadow of what it looked like years ago.
One of the major problems with the Big Alco's was the inability of the engine cooling system to handle the demands of hot weather operation...I used to open the engine bay doors on our CP units in hot weather prior to running up a long grade - it would give you a few more miles before they shut down due to overheating.
+tprdfh51 Well, bad maintenance had something to do with that, sure, but the problem even a bigger radiator and fan wouldn't fix was Alco's screwup they kept from the 244s of putting their charged intake air through the vee where it picks up ALL that heat from the upper cylinder area, made worse by the fact that 251s were a "wet block," thus making those surfaces in there at least near 200° all the time...and "unfixable" problem. That's why leaving the doors flapping on your CP Alcos gave you a few more miles.
+tprdfh51 Yep, I concur with the "open engine bay doors" method too. Prior to departing Driftwood for the tough climb up Keating Summit with heavy tonnage on a hot day. Conductor 'A-Rod' and myself would open up side doors on the old Alcos that were most prone to overheating and shutting down. We had bungee straps to hold the doors open in the best position that allowed maximum airflow through the entire length of the bay and across the engine. The trick was to open the front-most folding doors on both sides of engine bay a little bit less than half-way and lash 'em to the hand rails - thus making a pretty good sized air scoop that channeled cooling air in across the entire length of the V-16 engine. Next step was to do the same thing on the rear-most set of engine bay doors - open them up about halfway, lashing 'em to the hand rail - making a pretty large rearward louver and exit for the hot air to escape. Depending on how many locomotives we had in our power consist (usually 4 or 5 .. sometimes 6) ... the procedure took a bit of time to configure before departing. But, it REALLY made a big difference in keeping the water temps out of the red and the engines shutting down during the long, notch 8 near hour long climb up Keating Summit. * As a side note here. I recall another time doing this to a pair of Alcos when one day we found ourselves rescuing a stalled NS coal train that lost an engine on Cuba Hill. What an adventure and feat that was too! Still cant believe we pulled it off either. After waiting in nearby Wellsville siding for the NS train to clear with half their train (or so we thought) and forward east to Hornell. We made our way to Cuba to tie on to the other half of their train .. thinking all along the way how the heck are we even goanna budge 42 loads on an uphill grade with just a pair of old whipped Alcos - one 6 axle and a 4 axle??? After tying on and getting our marker to the rear of the train ... we discovered there was 46 loads! Not the 42 we were told. For whatever reason, the NS guys left us with the bigger half of train to move. The bigger half .. with, for all practical purposes - about half the power they had.Their consist was 3 engines - a pair of the newest SD70's - 4,300 HP each .. and an older GE Dash9 40 that conked out. 8,600 horsepower they had of brand new, great running EMD power and traction. Wow!Us ... we had a cantankerous old C636 that hardly loaded until it was in notch 6, and an old whipped B430 that hadn't made it's rated HP in decades. On paper - we had 6,600 horsepower. But, in a more truer reality and knowledge based upon running 'em for years ... I'd say the pair was maybe 4,500 to 5,0000 HP tops. They were the worst two in the fleet .. Lol. Hardly the pair ya wanted to be doing a rescue mission with.How we got that train moving ... inched and squealed it up and over Cuba hill ... ran it full out in notch 8 for two hours .. making little better than 10mph on the level ... both locomotives over heating and rarely running together. Pulled it up over Tip Top - the highest point on the former Erie Lackawanna system ... and plunged it down the 10 mile long, steep Hornell Hill .. with only one (very weak) operating dynamic working - the 4 axle ... is entirely another chapter and story for another writing.But, needless to say. That's when having a superb Conductor is priceless. And yes ... all the engine bay doors were wide open!
bmwelch320 The saving grace on those old Alcos were those GE 752 traction motors, which could take TONS of abuse and still keep going. Everything else on the Alcos was poorly designed and practically unmaintainable (Cutler-Hammer switchgear? Ever try to get parts for THAT?), but as long as you could get a voltage across those GEs, it would indeed move just about anything. SP learned that about the C628 demos back when they came out...those thing would oupull their SD9s and GP35s nearly 2 to 1 on a hill. Couldn't do much of anything else very well, but they could start any train on a hill! Same with the C630s, but they were even worse on reliability. All of the Alcos either got scrapped after doing time as hump donkeys (which they were very good at) or were cut down into slugs, which they were also very good at!
They sound like an Alco. What gives?
If memory serves me correct - there is already an ALCO graveyard started on one of tracks in Olean yard. * The 636 - burned out generator. * The 631 - broken crankshaft ... along with a few other 4 axles in various states of disrepair and likely never to run again
I know the fans and foamers love em .. but, the ole Alcos are really quite awful from an operating standpoint - garbage!
Two 3000 hp EMD SD 40's could most always perform better, and do more than two, sometimes three 3000 or 3600 hp Alcos.
I recall on a really hot summer day in 2008 pulling 28 loads (roughly 3650 tons) up Keating Summit with a pair of SD 40s. Sure they were right down on their knees and slipping a bit ... but no way two C630 Alcos would have done that without overheating or something else bad going wrong.
+bmwelch320 That might be just toasted diodes on 636's alternator. Little good it'd do...those things can barely outpull a good SD-9.
Yep I agree. Them older SD's were really good pullers. A pair of them together were pretty impressive in what they could do!
Alcos have four stroke engines,,,this is the disadventage,,,,more friction,,,bad turbocharger,,,bad acceleration at low rpm at full throttle,,with a lot of smoke(the charger is very bad),burt these problems at high rpm engine ,doesn"t exist..........the EMD loco engine,,,accelerates faster,,because is 2 strokes,,,with exhaust valves,,,one rpm,,,one ignition ("cycle,),,, the Alco engine 2 rpm 1 cycle... at 1000 rpm,,,2 strokes, engine fires 1000 times,,,,the four stroke,,,,500 time.s this is the adventage for the two strokes engines,more contimuous ignition and better efficiency in power.delivery.
even in 2018, new parts are available, for the 251, engines.
all electrical parts as well ....
Strange all these railroads keep them in service after 40 yrs. Alco must have gotten something right. Why exactly were alcos used over emds or GEs used to pull the extremely heavy iron ore trains for the LS&I bc they didnt pull as well? Makes so much sense
You put way too much hype into a single engineer. It takes ANY skilled engineer to run trains like this. 2.5% is big, but it's also not constant.
However, it's not as easy as "notch 8 & sand" like the initial idiot's comment, that sounds like a typical foamer remark. When you have larger tonnage freights & no helpers, you find out just how much harder it is than "8 & sand".
To my knowledge, this piece of the BUFL hosts only WNYP traffic as of early '11.