Karlheinz Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge: Analysis
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
- Composer Samuel Andreyev analyzes Karlheinz Stockhausen's seminal 1955-56 electronic piece, Gesang der Jünglinge (Song of the Youths).
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Thank you for doing this ,as well as the Beefheart and all the other analysis.Invaluable.I am learning so much.
YES! It's really a great thing you're doing on this channel. Thanks man!
a nice "sing-along" piece. I sing it every day.
This was desperately needed . A name everyone knows but very few know what he is doing . Verbal scores, spacial composition. Wow almost every piece initated new ideas and movements ! So glad to hear you talk about this music . Hope you do more . I was lucky to hear Eotvos conduct 1st version of Punkt (Point) in Miami .
Thank you Samuel for the education, I am not a musician( a painter) but I have heard Stockhausen's name over the years over and over : so thank you for the introduction.
Within 30 seconds of hearing this piece all I could think of is Zappa and how HEAVILY this work influenced works like We're Only in it for the Money and Lumpy Gravy.... my jawed dropped when I realized all the analysis and comments concerning these works never mentioned Stockhausen first and foremost as a direct influence regardless of what Mr. Zappa admitted to. I am a missive Zappa fan and so I needed the introduction and clarification. Respect and Thanks ❤
You are a missive fan? Ah, write.
Also, the early Residents.
You are who I shall point to when people insist that analyzing a piece of music so meticulously takes away the charm. It reminds me of the John Keats remark of “unweaving the rainbow”. On the contrary, this piece now moves me on a much deeper level having such insight into it’s internal logic. Thanks to your videos I have found the music spoken of simply ambrosial where before I found it opaque and even insufferable. Consider one day making a video analyzing “Stimmung”. The recording by the Theater of Voices is sublime.
Thank you for your kind comments -- I couldn't be happer to know that you feel this way about the work I've been doing. (I'm a fan of Stimmung, by the way).
While I believe he was a showboater and somewhat kidding us, there is no denying the breadth of innovation and subsequent influence.
I heard it all for the first time in 1974 and was fascinated, despite being at a loss and with no clue. I heard it hundreds of times when I was a teenager, discovering new sounds every time and still have the record and the Spotify link in my playlist. Today, I found several explanations and reasons why I should go on listening! Thank you for this; simple and clear, yet cultivated and very informative. Great work.
I learn so much about the art of listening every time.
Thank you for this! I hadn't really focussed on Gesange der Jünglinge until now, but this is very fascinating. Trying to get my head around the formula compositions (watching Stockhausen's lectures to the Oxford Union in 1973 helped considerably), and this seems a credible precursor, as well as a beautiful piece in its own right.
Thank you for this Samuel, it means a heck of a lot to me. I love Stockhausen, this is like another Christmas present :)
***** lol, sorry it was a brainfart. I've had a long day, but this video was excellent like usual. Thanks for covering a Stockhausen work! Your channel is the best classical related thing on this site, in my humble opinion :)
John Appleseed Thank you so much for your kind words. Glad you enjoyed it.
Thank you for the time you put into this! This piece has long intrigued me, but I've never been able to make much sense of it. You've given me the categories to help me begin to comprehend what Stockhuasen was trying to do.
You were right, Samuel. That was a most enlightening video. As I watched it, and you described how frequency cutoff and resonance filter white noise, I had to pause the video to emulate the idea on my Moog. I've thoroughly understood these ideas intellectually, but not so thoroughly experienced it sonically. Stockhausen reminds me of the people who say this or that isn't music - "Rap isn't music," confusing their tastes for the objective. All the while I listened to your commentary, I couldn't help but think what the people who say Rap, or any other form they don't prefer, for that matter, isn't music would think about Stockhausen. For my part, I will be listening to him for a long time. Thanks again.
My first impression was absolutely that. "This isn't music, this is just noises". It may be academically noteworthy and certainly reminded me of a less structured Zappa or Frusciante (at times) but it's not a song. I'm comfortable with my ignorance. ;) But yes, one of the first things that came to mind is the "rap is not music" people. This would make their heads explode. Play this for them on a road trip, and they would be begging to go back to listening to Run DMC.
These videos are really interesting and thought provoking. As a musician I love finding videos and channels like this that are in depth and well researched. Thank you, I've been looking for a good introduction to Stockhausen for a long time and this is what I have been looking for. Please continue to make such interesting videos!
Please stop never making these videos. I just binged watched them all and I need more immediately.
More coming soon. Hold on!
Great you are doing this - taking up good old music analysis - looking at the music itself and its anatonomy, as you say. That really can open perspectives. Here, and with any other good music, as you practise it.
Another excellent video! Thanks for taking the time to record these. One interesting point about this piece that you overlooked is that speech perception is categorical- there's a very clear line delineating what we perceive as voice-like (or speech-like) and not voice-like: it's almost a binary division between the two. This is why Stockhausen's continuum works only in theory- in practice we actually perceive almost a flipping of a switch between synthesized sound and voice, not the beautiful gradual morphing between the two that he originally intended. This categorical perception is likely an evolutionary development- we've been rewarded to prioritize the sound of speech and human utterance above all other sounds. Stockhausen had no way of knowing this in the 50's, and it's still an incredibly impressive technical feat, but it accounts for why we don't perceive the acoustic continuum that he carefully crafted as a clear interpolation between voice and sound.
CarcharodonMusic Great point. I find that often, Stockhausen's theoretical notions are not particularly pertinent in terms of actual perception, but that they result in a surface quality that couldn't have been obtained otherwise.
Very true. His theoretical concerns were often very much under the hood- pretty common for most serial composers.
Thank you for these brilliant videos, I've learned so much from them. I'll be sure to tell my fellow music-friends about your channel!
Enda Thank you for saying that. Hope to hear from you again.
Analyses of the music of Stockhausen, Xenakis and other composers of the time are really helpful to those of us who don't dismiss such music, but need some foundation for understanding it. Thank you for this video and others.
Wonderful material. Thank you
What happenstance, I've bee listening to musique concrete for the last couple of weeks and just as I'm really getting into it, you release this indepth analysis of one of the masterworks of the genre. Very, very nice
Cool! Synchronicity!
Incredible analysis. Such intense work went into this piece of music. Thank you for the incredible work you’ve put into the analysis, too.
The spectral/phonetic aspect of Stockhausen’s composition are incredible, which to the untrained ear, might sound arbitrary. Nothing arbitrary here.
Fascinating (the work and the analysis). Some months back I saw here on CZcams a lecture Stockhausen gave in English c. 1970 (I think). It provides a good look at his thinking over time and includes excerpts from Gesang, Gruppen, etc.
And here's what Frank Zappa had to say about it in 1967:
_There's a record by Karlheinz Stockhausen on the Deutsche Gramophon label called "Gesang der Jünglinge", it's the "Song Of The Youths"; "Kontakte" ("Contact") is on the other side. _*_Buy that_*_ (DGG 138811)._
Although, he wasn't very fond of Stcokhausen's other works, apparently. Nevertheless, listening to this piece, I can hear sounds/techniques Zappa used on the earlier albums with the Mothers.
It's funny how you've been going through the composers Zappa had on the "Freak Out List of Contributors". I'm starting to wonder if this is some sneaky plan. If so, well played. If not...you must be in tune with _The Big Note_.
Once again, a fascinating presentation, Mr. Andreyev. Thanks!
@SteppenWolff100 Is it _Conceptual Continuity_ at work? 🤔
Zappa included Eric Dolphy on that extensive list. He was appreciating the new jazz right in its emergence. I personally think Zappa is the greater musical figure.
The most intelligent and thorough musical biographies on the CZcamss and, arguably, the web.
Fascinating and eloquently presented…Bravo 👏
That was beautiful, thank you.
Der S. is so important but I never really knew why. It's so strange that my college textbooks left out the really important critical information you elucidate in the first 2 minutes .The idea that often each new work elaborated and initiated or suggested a new genre or approach to music . Boulez is much easier to listen to and with his standard notation not impossible . I could devote a lifetime exploring this man ! Thankyou -I cant believe it has taken this long to find visual treatment I know there are tens of thousands of pages written about him .
Very many thanks.I wish I'd had this years ago when i was trying to explain Stockhausen to friends! Now I know far better how I should have explained it.
Lovely analysis!
Brilliant teaching. Thank you.
In
The Stockhausen “Gesang der Jünglinge” found its way into my record collection in 1964 and remains one of the few “electronic” compositions that I continue to find interesting. Another such piece is Luciano Berio’s “Omaggio a Joyce” (1958) for voice and electronic sounds which begins with a reading of a portion of James Joyce’s “Ulysses” by soprano Cathy Berberian followed by an electronic composition synthesized (entirely, apparently) from the reading. In both pieces a human speaking voice is juxtaposed against an electronic accompaniment which I generally find more interesting than “pure” electronic sounds.
It was a surprise to hear that Frank Zappa was so fond of the Stockhausen piece. I knew he liked the music of Edgard Varese. Being someone who enjoys jazz, I became very fond of the Zappa album “The Grand Wazoo”, presumably a jazz fusion set that manages to avoid Zappa’s tendency to sometimes be repetitive and has its roots in modal jazz originating from such greats as George Russell, Bill Evans and Miles Davis. Zappa’s satire on the Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper album was titled “We’re Only In It For the Money” and contains some of the most interesting electronic scoring that I know of.
Have you heard Willie. Green s version of Blessed Relief ?
That's a sweet encouragement at the end!
Fantastic, Samuel. This one of the first pieces that Karlheinz Straetmanns let me analyze back in the day.
The Stereo LP of this work has been in my collection for about 50 years. I don't believe it was ever issued on CD. I've listened to Gesang many times and consider it to be one of the really great achievements in electronic music. Your analysis of it is invaluable.
Of course it‘s been issued on CD. Stockhausen himself issued it on CD and sold it by mail order. I‘ve owned the CD for nearly 20 years. You can now order it here: www.stockhausencds.net/Stockhausen_Edition_CD3.html
HotSketch - is entirely right. Stockhausen is one of the few composers who holds the rights to his recordings and owns his master tapes. That‘s why the CD reissue was not on Deutsche Grammophon but on his own label. It‘s a wonderfully done reissue, btw (the entire series is) with copious liner notes by Stockhausen himself.
Could you possibly ever do an analysis of Mikrophonie I? Amazing piece (as are nearly all of his pieces!)
Thanks for the great video!
Thanks for giving credit to thid genius, but highly underrated composer.
Fantastic as usual.
Thank you
That book of stockhausen transcripts looks interesting. Could you do a video discussing/showing some of your favorite books concerning music and composers?
"Philosophy is to Art as Ornithology is to Birds" Barnett Newman
Simeon Banner I love that quote. He's my favourite painter. Why do you mention it in the context of Stockhausen? (Also, he was referring to aesthetics, not philosophy).
Thanks a lot for this magnificent analysis. And of many others. I dig these. Always wondered if you can analyze "Stimmung" for it is my favorite Stockhausen piece. Although it sounds like a simple one tone piece, I would love to see some stuff said about it. Thank you for giving more perspective to these pieces!
This is so introguing!!
Thank you :D
Paul McCartney liked “Song of the Youths” and brought it to Lennon’s attention. The electronic stuff on the “White Album” comes from this.
love it!!
And as we all know now, an important influence for Aphex Twin-you can hear it in a modern beat context quite clearly in Boy Girl Song and other works.
Mm! For Squarepusher too. He even mentions it in an interview.
Thank you for this insightful analysis. Are you by any chance familiar with the electronic duo Autechre, who like many other musicians from the IDM (Intelligent Dance Music) scene are immensely influenced by Stockhausen? Autechre use max/msp extensively in their works.
Such a good video thank you!
Awesome video! I'm wondering if there are any books you might recommend for further study of this kind of electronic composition, or of music in general?
composing electronic music by curtis roads
amazing, thanks... best to choose the stereo over the mono version on Spotify I'm guessing.
It would be better if there were a pentaphonic version. It can be done with Dolby encoding, easily.
Thank you
Samuel, can you do a follow-up to this continuing on with your analysis?
Awesome video. never in my life have i seen someone blink so much as you
Okay, okay. Several people have mentioned this. It's because I wear contact lenses and I have to stare into the camera's light while I make these videos. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.
haha pardon me, I hope it's not upset you, I just thought of it as a funny quirk.
Thanks for putting these videos out for free, they're really fantastic
You're welcome. They're not free though -- they come with a hidden cost! Watch out!
the cost is that we have our own analysis to do now! :D
xXDimistreoXx ;)
Dear Mr. Andreyev. Could you please explane again, how S created the second horizontal row in the square? Thank you.
It's working in a mod 7 numeric system, meaning that you return to 1 after 7 (1234567123..). 7 is also interchangeable with 0 in this type of system, just like the 12 on a clock is also 0 (but that's mod12). So, in this system 4 + 4 equals one, rather than 8, since 1 follows 7.
Thank you simply thank you
Thanks for this, can you look at Berio’s (Laborinthus II) and Stockhausen’s Kontakte
This was very interesting, thank you! I just went to 'aus LICHT' this week, a 15 hour selection of pieces from Licht performed in the Netherlands, very impressive. Do you have any good books on Stockhausen and his works that you would recommend?
If you read German, you might find the collections of Stockhausen's writings, published by the Stockhausen Verlag, to be interesting. Otherwise, the book of interviews with Jonathan Cott makes for absorbing reading.
@@samuel_andreyev Ah thanks! Will look into it
brilliant...thx!
Excellent analysis.
If you ever plan on doing more Stockhausen analysis in the future. Will you ever do an analysis on Mantra?
HI i'm Sam Thanks. Mantra would require a 2-hour video :) I heard it last year in Strasbourg -- magnificent work.
The paradox is that this kind of music is the most easy to "understand" : just go with the flow like looking at abstract art.
Yes, but pattern recognition is much more difficult here, hence the perceived barier to comprehension!
@@samuel_andreyev : well yes but just like for instance the late John Coltrane or Ornette Coleman I think the point is just to let the sounds "hit" you and dont try to grasp it.
Heya can someone explain why the numbers don’t make sense when he’s explain the table? Like 7+4 does not equal 4 but the way it’s framed makes it look that’s what’s going on
This is a really fantastic analysis of one of my favorite works; I'd love to see you look at Ligeti or even more Stockhausen!
Noah Mayer Spore Thank you -- I will be doing a video on Ligeti. Probably the Zehn Stücke..
Samuel Andreyev Not a piece I'm familiar with, but I'd love to see your view on it nonetheless. With respect, though, I've noted that many of these analyses tend to involve modernist chamber music that try to completely disregard the past on a general level; I feel like for variety's sake, you might consider one of the later concerti, like the piano, violin, or Hamburg, which have a very distinct folkish flavor to them (not to mention the latter two deal with just intonation!). Just a suggestion, but I would be ecstatic to see something on one of the sixties pieces like Zehn Stücke just as well!
Noah Mayer Spore Good suggestion, although the later concertos are really beyond the scope of what I can cover in a 30-40 minute video. The piano etudes would be a good option..
Samuel Andreyev The études would be a fantastic choice, and something that really ought to be fun to analyze.
I really did not get the part with the serial square. Could you please go into more detail about this? How do I get from 7 to 4 (2nd row)? I'd really wish to understand.
Found the answer! One year ago Alex Cook asked the same. This conversation explained it all.
Always loved this piece, but didn't have any real insight into it. Now I do (although I'm a bit of a dunce, and will have to watch this video a couple times). With the morass of dross on CZcams, it's great to find something of substance. I've looked at your video list, and we either have similar tastes, or it's a happy coincidence. Either way, thank you for taking the time to put this together.
No problem. Glad you found it helpful.
Iam confused by the total serial-ism section. once the horizontal and vertical numbers are combined how does 7 and 7 make 4? This part is discussed at 27mins and 25 seconds .
Any help would be great.
Thanks
Alex Cook Hi Alex. In the case of this series, 7 is the last item of the list and therefore the highest possible value. By adding numbers you are really advancing by a certain number of positions on the list. So if you want to add 4 to 7, you have to return to the beginning of the list. That's why 7 +4 = 4 in this case. Hope that helps.
Hello Thank you for your reply. I think I understand now, so you apply the differentials to each row independently. So for example when applying the differential (+5) to the third digit 5 on the second row (6, 7, 1, 2, 3) you get three. Thank you for your help. Love these videos.
Alex Cook That's exactly right. And you're most welcome.
if you put the basic series in a graph (values on y) it looks like an acoustic impuls with decreasing amplitude, so maybe not so arbitrary after all? Anyway, love these videos, i just binged your whole channel!
Very interesting.
Hi Samuel !
I love you & your videos !
Amazingly organized knowledge! I am not good expressing my thoughts and feelings with words!
I just want to thank you!
I really want to ask you a question :
1. I am studying music history of the past two centuries. I really learn some things on www.musicmap.info (great website) . But I really want to learn more details about genres and subgenres, to discover more composers , bands and songs. The details of its genre and subgenre ,the situations that gave birth to them etc. .
Do you have any bibliography available ?
I know that that would be a massive bibliography , but maybe you have some books that lead to other books.
Thank you for you time :)
Take care :)
Να είσαι καλά !
Please explain Stockhausen's "Kreuzspiel".
Stockhausen never composed in traditional forms.
Each composition had its own unique form particular to the work.
this is super…thx!!!
I like how innovative Stockhausen’s pieces are, but boy do my ears hate it lmao
Thanks
What is the program that someone can use for electronic classical music?
Audacity
Samuel, I was told that the taped song was not soprano but a rare recording of 'castrate'... ?... I went to see him in person in 1984 in London as he sat in the center of the auditorium mixing the composition somehow.. It was quite scary at times due to the volume... My girlfriend was spooked... There was a kind of insane beauty... But not an attractive work. Maybe one needs to listen often enough...? I never forgot the intensity of the performance...!
The voice was recorded by young Josef Protschka, who went on to be a successful operatic singer.
@@samuel_andreyev - Ok, thanks. Well, that shows how easily these rumours start as I had believed what I was told all these years... so, thanks for putting me right.
Thanks for your work.
take a shot every time he blinks
I absolutely adore Stockhausen
What's the piece playing during the outro? (I assume one of yours?)
Yes, it's one of mine -- it's the outro music for all of my videos now. It's an excerpt from Strasbourg Quartet (2014-15), for flute, clarinet, percussion and cello.
Excellent, thank you! I felt like I'd seen this question answered before, but couldn't find or recall the response.
Yes. Stockhausen was a phenomenon. I studied with him, took part in one of his Darmstadt classes. A feature of “Gesang” amd many other pieces from this period that should be pointed out is the “scientific” and objective, even materialistic, approach. The role of intuition is essentially eliminated; to be precise and scientific was the highest value. This cannot be overstated: the romantic approach, the very notion of “expression”, is dismissed. I believe that Stockhausen came to regret this, and sought to find ways back --- through psychedelics, meditation, and even quite bizarre fantasies of receiving messages from distant stars (according to the music gossip network). Comments from Mr. Andreyev would be appreciated.
That is extremely interesting! Thank you for the comment.
Why did they obsess on TOTAL serialism? Why was it so important to let go of personal control in favor of arbitrary order? Trading one straight jacket for another straight jacket.
i don't understand the serial square
excellent, thank you. don't forget Catholicism and the Book of Daniel.
How about a video about some music by John Cage?
I'm planning that
@@samuel_andreyev Great, looking forward to it!
can you love and hate the piece at the same time? stockhausen was right in predicting parametric nature of electronic music and realising it this way, but i absolutely hate the end result.
Nailed the german aswell, are you fluent?
Sneysher Not yet -- although I live only 10 minutes from the German border and I'm starting to pick it up.
*see Roland Kayn comment on other video ;) thanks Sam*
11:25, 12:09, 13:07, 18:22, 20:00
😐😑😐😑😐😑😐😑😐😑😐😑😐
can you please say maxmsp again. i will pay you. from sf.... to k..... it says "fuck"
payment in advance pls
A lot of tape splicing. He could have probably ran a clinic on tape splicing and editing.
Peccato che il commento non è in italiano
(追)耳に刺さるロックは聴けない、演れない。10代の感性は保てないね。おれの年齢でロケローしてるやつはすごい。夜はロケローだけど音楽では無理だ。今の僕が一番いいなと思うのはこういうのなのかな。アンビエントでも知的操作を感じないものは無理ですね。そうするとこういう古典になるのかな••
I find the music of stockhausen music scary...
Thank you, this was very interesting.
However, I remain very sceptical about the whole approach. From a logical standpoint, this complexity, made up out of arbitrary parameters, is ultimately pointless. It's basically artistic voodoo. There is only some deeper sense if you want to believe that there is some deeper sense.
Not that it is not worth to listen to this piece. The electronic sounds have a new quality of something that you haven't heard before. Which is fascinating, at least for a while.
This “music” will never be popular of course. It will remain elitist. Singular. But it is refreshing in these times that he never became a victim.
My 8 year old brother engaged with it really creatively. Robert Lowell’s daughter said of a piece by Webern that was playing on the radio ‘it sounds like wild spiders crying, but without any tears”. Children and many adults who are happy enough to connect with experience vividly are always curious about such music.
@@tejasnair3399 bless u for that response tejas
But I do think it’s more important to expose children and people generally to the music of Mozart than Stockhausen’s, for moral epistemological reasons that can be discussed. In short it’s more effective in making peoples lives better, and is therefore more ‘good’.
@@tejasnair3399 why is it more effective?
why are you blinking so much lol
Cuz I'm rich & faaaamous
Where's your neck tie young man? Tut-tut.
If you know Morse Code you will be able to decider what the presenter is also saying via his spastic eye blinking.
I don't mean to offend anybody, but this is music for the insane.
How anyone could find this enjoyable is beyond me.
I guess I must be insane then :)
Skipped the last section and no actual consequences? Total serialism was a serious distraction. Sorry, Absurd random whatever.
Do you really like it? hahaha
why do you blink so much lol
dertdood It must be a byproduct of my extraordinary analytical acumen.
bodyslam
great. now I can't unsee the blinking.
Eva Alcantara it's your own fault for reading the comments section.
Samuel Andreyev i know i know.
this is not music
The only sensible definition of music is organized sound. So, certainly it is music.