FIRST Start in DECADES!? Testing Old 3 Phase Machines ~ Installing a Rotary Phase Converter ~ Part 3
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2020
- Let's see if the 3 phase machines I have been gathering even start up!
Check out Part 1 & 2 and you can see all the work that led to my ability to start up 3 phase monsters!
Part 1 - Preparing for 3 Phase Power here at the shop - • FINALLY Getting 3 Phas...
Part 2 - Installing a Rotary Phase Converter - • WHAT is 3 Phase Power?...
So now that I finally have 3 phase power it's time to start up some of my old monster machines!! I've been collecting them for awhile and been unable to power them up, but not any more!
We'll do the initial start up & overview on these 6 machines:
- Van Norman Duplex Milling Machine No. 2
- Kalamazoo 6"x48" Belt Grinder / Sander
- Lincoln Electric Power Wave 355m with a 25m Power Feed
- Cincinnati Hydrashift 17x54 Engine Lathe
- J.A. Fay 38" Wood Cutting Bandsaw from the 1880's
- J.A. Fay & Egan Universal WoodWorker Setup as an 18" Wood Jointer from around 1900
I have many more to start up and put back to work, but I figured this would be a good start!
I'd love to know your thoughts on this project!
If you have any suggestions, questions, or comments, please leave them below!
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#StartingMachines #3PhasePower #SalvageWorkshop - Zábava
Quite a bit of work had to happen before I could fire these machines up, but it was WELL worth it! Check out the rest of the project here:
Part 1 - Preparing for 3 Phase Power here at the shop - czcams.com/video/bKgyg6Va0c8/video.html
Part 2 - Installing a Rotary Phase Converter - czcams.com/video/qDknqdYLztw/video.html
The Cincinnati lathe is “preselector”. Somewhere around maybe the 50’s a couple of the big American lathe manufacturers started building these types of speed change mechanisms into their lathe with the idea it would speed up the changing of rpms. While a good idea, the complex mechanism often proved counterproductive as keeping them properly functioning often proved difficult. They were often callled “Rube Goldberg” mechanism, referring to using an unnecessarily complicated mechanism to perform a task easily done by simpler means. Goldberg was an old time cartoonist that drew humorous overly complicated mechanisms in his cartoons. When these lathes are functioning correctly they are great though.
While I haven’t used a Cincinnati lathe with this control, I do own a big LeBlond with the same type of headstock shifting, called a “servo-shift”. These use a small hydraulic pump to control custom proprietary fluidics inside the headstock to shift the various forks and thus make the gear changes. Operation is by “pre-selecting the speed the operator wishes. On the leblond, and I assume the cinncy is similar, you have your typical lathe forward/reverse spindle engagement handle on the headstock and a redundant duplicate handle on the carriage that is basically rotating what’s referred to as the “third rod” (leadscrew is 1st or top, feed screw/shaft is below that/2nd, and control rod below that at the bottom/3rd. This control rod/3rd rod is what the spindle fwd/rev on/off handle directly rotates. It is mechanically coupled to a drum switch typically.
The Servo-shift leblonds have 5 positions (rather closely detented) on this handle or knob on newer versions.
Center-off and spindle brake applied
One notch up or down from center is brake off/motor off but lathe is still “in gear”
Fully up/down from center is on fwd/rev respectively.
To change speeds select one up/down from center to the motor off/brake off position and select rpm on dial. Drop lever to center position and the spindle will oscillate slightly in what is termed “crawl speed”. The hydraulic motor spins up and the internal mechanism slides the gears around to make the shift. You only want to leave it in this position for a few seconds, long enough to move the gears into position which if you listen closely you can hear the clunk inside the headstock as they move into position. Move the lever up/down one detent to go to machine off/brake off or all the way up/down to fire up the spindle and begin your turning.
From then on is where they get the pre-selector part of their name. Anytime while machining a part or otherwise when the spindle is turning, you may “preselect” your next speed by simply changing the dial to desired rpm. The next time you engage the center position on that main spindle/brake on/off lever it will, after braking, go into the above described crawl speed shifting process.
Parts/problems to look for at least on the leblond that might cause the shifting problem (which again I assume is very similar and was even built in Ohio-the machine tool capital world)-
-Zero speed sensor-was a mercury switch to let the analog electronics know the spindle had stopped and it was ok to initiate a shift.
-Wires going to the electromechanical brake. They reside under the change gear/end gear train cover. Left side of headstock where you were questioning the engagement of that bull gear with the feed/threading gearbox (quick change gear box). The brake itself is very durable in my experience.
-Small motor that runs the hydraulics for shifting gears
To answer your question about the gears on the end of the quick change feed/threading box-yes that gear should be engaged with that large bull gear. Those gears on the left of a lathes headstock is called the end gear train or change gears as early lathes and smaller hobby lathes typically requires changing them to attain different feeds and threads. They are adjustable in their engagement in that they are mounted on a banjo or quadrant that has slots so you can move them in and out of engagement for the different size gears used.
The system in the Cincy is much simpler. The third rod (technically second since the Cincy uses a combined feed/threading shaft) controls a neutral position, engages a clutch to run, or a very similar clutch to brake. The motor runs the whole Time. When the spindle is turning the pump which supplies oil to lube also stops the hydrashift mechanism. No electronics in that headstock.
Robert Mason.... i read your post with awe and utmost respect i never understood a word of it but loved it non the less hell i dont even own anything bigger than a hobby table saw but love watching this guy,, i am wanting a hobby piller drill but that would be my limit lol i am more likely to huirt my self with anything bigger my wife would kick my ass if i do lol
Love those old machines, especially the bandsaw and jointer
Just a bit of trivia..Corry’s Machine &Tool , Bonaparte Iowa was a huge dealer for Cincinnati Tools and a few others. From a small town of 850. They sold equipment all over the country and even exported to Europe.
I am in a nursing home in the adjacent village of Keosauqua Iowa. I’ve been here for 2 years and one of the first person I met was a Richard Cory. His brother Frank Corry was the main salesman along with agents scattered all over the country. Richard was in charge of delivery and setup and traveled the country sometimes hauling up to 8 machines on his flatbed. Lots of storytelling from the old guy..
Sadly these days Richard is suffering from dementia and is pretty unsteady on his feet. He would get a kick out of seeing an old machine he probably delivered and not forgotten. Last week here at the Care Centerwe celebrated Richards birthday,,,, not sure if he knew what was going on but he liked the cake.
I have a 17" Cincinnati hydrashift that I've been getting running. I've had some of the same problems as you. Yes, adjust those big gears to be in mesh. Smash a piece of paper between them to provide the proper clearance. Mine were loose at first and it sounded horrible. The gearbox issues- take that top cover off and take a poke around inside. Right underneath is a big manifold with three shift forks to manipulate the gear sets underneath. On my lathe I found that the gear forks were not positioned correctly on thier shafts. (They're only clamped with pinch bolts). There are two hydraulic pumps. One to supply lube while the spindle is turning and one to supply hydraulic pressure while the spindle is stopped to shift gears. You can run the machine with the cover off, but prepare yourself for oil getting sprayed everywhere.
Excitement never ends with your toys!
Both the bandsaw and the planer motors will need rebuilding properly...
That Cincinnati lathe:
If it's similar to the ward prelector and the Herbert pre-op types (UK turret lathes)....then it'll have a multi port selector feeding hydraulic slaves for changing the gears...
They'll likely be a load of copper small bore pipes inside coming off a manifold and going to various selectors...🇬🇧👍
You know you have some bad ass machines, when one of them is a stick shift LOL
This old machinist showed me this weird tip. When I'm talking old machinist, i am 72 and this was when i was much younger. When searching for noises on an old machine that has questionable bearings try using a stethoscope and if you do not have one use a section of wooden broom handle. Grab the wooden handle so the top of your fist is level to end of the handle, then put the other end on suspected noisy bearing and then press your ear to the top of your fist on the end of the broomstick and listen. Surprisingly, it works a lot better than you would think, It also works on car engines, because an old mechanic showed this to me on a defective water pump bearing that was just starting to make noise. Watch abom79 he is a frickin genius with machinist arena. Put some oil in it and see what happens..
I love the tips you get from the old grey beards
I used a long screwdriver to listen to conveyor belt motor bearings. One of the main mine fans had bits of brass coming out with the grease at the D/E bearing cover, motor was 1350HP, no chance of getting close enough to listen to the bearing. I notified my Foreman we had a problem, he brought a harmonic bearing instrument underground. It showed the bearing was failing. Turned out the shaft was out of alignment with the fan drive shaft, direct coupling. Although the whole motor and fan assembly was on a steel "I" beam cradle, the concrete was being "lifted" by ground movements. We were 3/4 mile beneath the surface. After the bearing had been replaced the whole lot had to be shimmed until the shafts realigned.
We used hammer shafts and screwdrivers to listen to motor bearings on underground machinery. Very effective.👍🏻
Screwdriver,chissel or so. I am not so sure about wood or ,,plastic,,. Might deffening the sound.
I work in the old Van Norman building in Springfield, MA. It’s awesome to see you getting this working!
That is AWESOME!! I love that! They made some incredible machines!
Glad to see some of them work! I was half expecting a fireworks show with that bandsaw though....
Great job getting the machines running! That is a LOT of puppies!!!!! =D
These are some awesome tools. I can’t wait to have a large workshop to have such toys.
Lots of new toys. Have fun, Can’t wait to watch.
I love love LOVE you enthusiasm of machines, whether there working or not! Gotta save history bro cause once there gone there gone! Love you dogs SO SO much that I can't care to show anything you do to my wife I kids just in CASE you show them lol but as for me?? Nah I'm good hahahaha yeah right! Cheers and keep'm coming, stay safe PLEASE!
Always amazed at your different talents. You will figure them all out. How about the puppies.
Love to see you saving these Machines
Watching videos like yours and others is slowly building my courage. My wood mill has two ancient bandsaws sitting out in their yard and I'm beginning to think even I could take one apart and restore. I already have a 14" band saw but frankly it's a 'toy' when compared to these bigger monsters.
love your shows. You really get into things. Its great!
..good revival of old iron and eventually putting them back to work..be safe and have a great week..
Excellent work👍👍👍. Thanks for sharing. A TON of restorations in the Horizon.
Loved watching and learning the electrical systems with you!!!!
Love to see old machines come back to life! Please just don't let them explode in your face though man.
Wow, I see some pretty cool videos in our future! Thanks, that was a good one!
Wow, I think this is the first video of yours I watched and I hadn't seen the previous two - now I appreciate much more what you were building up to and how big a deal it was getting 3phase power in the shop. Really look forward to seeing the old joiner an 19th century ginormous band saw running - that should be another amazing restoration project! And wow you raise a lot of pups!
A project for another day? Imperial days must be longer than metric ones 😁
Glad you clarified that the puppers were a different litter. I was thinking " damn those critters grow up fast" 🤣
Plenty of future projects! I'm anxious to see you working on them!
You've got some wonderful old machinery sitting around your shop!
The belts are directional, and must run the way the arrow is pointing
Yes correct
Yes and the direction running up not down is actually correct
@@thelostbushmanlg1765 Never ever seen a belt sander that lifted the piece being sanded off the plate, they all run so as to push the piece onto the table otherwise the table is of no use whatsoever. Also if you run the belt like you say your face will be full of sparks, 99% of any gringing wheel, belt sander or even hand grinders all send the sparks downover. get your facts right before posting something like that as your reply could injure someone if they take any notice.
The belt seam should be up as it self rotates down toward the work piece plate.
@@robertparker8022 Most all splices for the past 30 years are butt splices and non directional.
I bought a projector to teach my kids during this pandemic. Wish I had that cart.
Cant wait for u to finish. On the other hand enjoying the process as well
Love that bandsaw, wish I could find one like that to restore and use!
Hello SW. Love all the puppies, the kids are in puppy heaven. You sure have some hard work ahead of you, but you are definitely no stranger to hard work. Regards, Dave
If you can put some oil on the working surfaces to stop further rusting especially because those machines are stored outside. With some oil on you can leave it indefinitely without having problems with even more rust.
Man I wish I had you here in Chile to help me with things like this! Awesome tools. Jim in Chile
Fireball tool channel did an excellent referb of a band saw that looks just like this. It's freeking awesome.
That K-Zoo grinder just needs a little love and it will be good as new. Toasted or not, if you have it pulled apart, replacing all the bearings would keep it running trouble free for ages. Be done with it.
You sure have your hands full between pups. and little ones I’m sure those machines are a nice break LOL beautiful litter.
Sure is nice to see someone taking the time and effort to rescue these old machines. I would love the jointer, but it would take up 1/4 of my garage shop.
made good use of school cart!... love it!...thanks 4 video. be kind.
Gonna be nice! Gotta do some guards for those and keep the pooches locked up tight when running those things though. Good job as always!
this is awesome! keep up the great content :)
love your passion in your work.. interested in your pups..
look on youtube for abom79 the guy worked with these types of machines all his life and knows a lot about them , he pretty helpfull too
Can't wait to see your little bandsaw going!
I really enjoy watching this stuff. I've learned a lot. Keep it up. I would love to see more progress on that Cat 955 dozer!
The Van Norman machine is a good find and it would work well for you in your shop.
Gorgeous equipment- particularly the Cincinnati. You will need a bunch of emery cloth and 3-1 oil
Change out all motor bearings on the machines you're going to immediately use, and then more machines as you intent to bring them into service; cheap insurance..
yeah, if a bearing decides to lock up, it can turn a lot of things to metal shavings
and clean&grease everything. But he knows...
Man, I think your ambition exceeds your given number of future heartbeats for the repair of these fine old behemoths. If you are ever going to get a few of them up to running you need some retired bored machinist/electrician/ mechanic, jack of all to get on board. [like me] While storing those machines outside, and even if you are tarping them, you badly need a few gallons of my special mix oil in a pump up sprayer. Very roughly I use mineral spirits as the base, say one gallon, then a half gallon of hydraulic oil or clean used transmission fluid, and boiled linseed oil maybe a quart or so, experiment. The mineral oil is the transport vehicle and penetrant and the linseed and light oil stay behind, the linseed forming a film. Motors are cheap, time is not. Buy surplus and auction motors and junk the old crap. The sheaves cost more than the motors. The Bandsaw motor is scrap but the jointer motor might be worth opening up. Weird how it's locked with play. The lathe will defeat you! The innards of that thing require a week full time study to get to know and then a month of cursing and torture opening it up. There is a reason many old tools sell for scrap value.
I once dug a 32" Fay bandsaw out of a mud hole and made it work. Just. The cast wheels scare me, one is brazed. Works great but I wear a motorcycle helmet when I run it for more than a minute. In my older, richer days, I laugh at my younger self. Good bandsaws sell pretty cheap at auction when the economy is down. I used to build a lot of woodworking machinery. Some times better than fighting the rust. I hate rust. MIX UP THAT OIL AND FLOOD ALL YOUR INVENTORY!
if you want no bullshit and no guff, and you just want good honest results, check this guy out. love this channel, keep up the good work fella.
I look forward to seeing the band saw running.
I hope someday i can find a big bandsaw like that, but i'll probably have to build one myself.
Question
Is there really a market / demand for these older machines?
With all the new computer driven equipment, are they in demand?
Just asking.
Excellent.
Beautiful puppies! 13 little balls of energy to haha!
Both of those machines are nice
Yup, old belts break like that. good machine
Oh hell yeah it’s a lot better than the stick machine, lot cleaner!
That was awesome
Some nice stuff there.
I don't know anything about those big machines but 45 years ago i used to work for a company that sold all the replacement bearings and gears for them so I used to deal with a lot of old time machinists. My strongest memory of those guys is that none of them had all their fingers, toes, eyes etc etc. . . Because of that I have always been terrified by those big machines and every time you power one up my heart skips a beat. . .
That bandsaw is huge. Nice find
well done !
It looks like the sanding belt came apart because it was put in wrong so the seam got caught by the workpiece.
Awesome series. Was considering 3 phase for the utility for the shop but this looks like a cheaper AND easier option!
Power company will charge a fortune to bring it to your panel, yeah!
you have the right size Cinni now you can make parts for the Cat traxacator and that long screw is the lead screw.
Also, that fluke tester you are using is known as a "Widow Maker" by electricians for a very good reason. I own a couple, and never ever use them to make sure something is turned off, like you do at 8:44. Great way to get killed.
I'm sure you don't! But you also don't video what you do... It was how I showed on camera that the power was off... It wasn't my only check, but you're an electrician, you knew that!
After you get a few of those machines running, your next tool needs to be a bending brake so you can make some guards for those exposed belt. Those are some real man eaters.
My Grandfather had a larger Cincinnati Lathe he bought New in the 70’s I think.On his every other speed on the hand wheel was for back gears (low range) and if yours is the same there might not be anything wrong with it. Fingers Crossed,Ross
Hi, the quadrant gear train needs to be adjusted to engage the main head stock gear to the feed box. Depending on the cogs fitted, you rotate the assembly and adjust the slider to get a good gear mesh.
Yours Andy UK
Liked,shared. All my best.
I am very impressed by your knowledge of wiring and machines and even more impressed by your eager willingness to take on these challenges (the band saw is my personal favorite). The puppies look great....beautiful coats and color. As always, best wishes and stay healthy.
Thank you my friend! The bandsaw is also my favorite! Once I have a place to keep it indoors, it's going to make an AWESOME restoration project!
I think the motor on the planer/jointer just needs bearings.
Those are some real pretty pups you have there.
On the lathe you have small motor that run a hydraulic pump for gear shifter check the rotation is no pumping oil change the input wire to change rotation of the lathe and check again
The lathe uses only one motor. Their is a second pulley to run a small pump from the main motor. The pump supplies the same flow output regardless the input direction.
Recent Sub...enjoy old Iron restore video's and that's some MAJOR Iron. Loved the puppy fix too....that's a lot of pups and can see why you have different colored "collars" !
Cool video! I too am a fan of clearly labeling wires but, I was a sparky by trade till retirement...
Over the past decade, I’ve started taking pictures as well as labeling everything, and depending on the complexity, I also sketch something simple but, effective especially, when a project is going to be slow going for whatever reasons.
Hello, about a year ago I suggested you apply a coat of oil to the jointer bed, and the same to the band saw then cover them with Tarpaulin sheeting. This type of machinery is not the best left open to the elements, I am a 74 year old Joiner and have been in my trade since 1961. The motors could be locked up solid, and using a puller on the cast iron pulley could snap off a section of the " V " pulley. Unless you know exactly what you are doing, look into the correct removal and disassembly. It would also be safer if you had a qualified professional electrician to check out the wiring, 240 volt is bad enough, but 440 is deadly, for you own safety get it checked out. Best wishes, Geoff Lewis, Wales, UK, 🏴🏴🏴
I sure like my jacobs rubber flex chuck. I have the whole set with the rubber plugs for short pieces.
I also have that type chuck for 5C only because I have all good quality 5C Collets. Mine are not that big of a mount, I have L00.
That's awesome to hear! I do have the full set of rubber collets as well! I do want a larger 3 or 6 jaw chuck for larger work though! A 5c chuck would be cool too! I'v got a couple sets of the collets.
If you use a little Johnson's Paste Wax on the bare metal, it will help in reducing the rust greatly, and keep everything moving smoothly. And stay away from that wire brush.
Err, before you go fiddling with that lathe you better get some time travel tips from This Old Tony because your lathe has a load of levers I've never seen before and all I can think of is that thing can switch time travel AND take you to alternate dimensions!!! 😂🤣😂
I can't wait to see these machines in the future, I'm really interested in learning a bit more about 3 phase machines 👍👍👍
That "Americana seeds" plate is cool...
A bomb on CZcams
He is very experienced and run his own machine shop
Hope this helps
The lathe is awesome
About, he's a Hella machinist. He can probably help
Awesome
The gears on the head stock that you can engage and disengage are for the half nut .that is for chasing threads. You can't use the feed screw and the regular feed at the same. Now there is a speed selection on the left to set the speed of the feed screw. Speed is determined by the threads per inch you are trying to turn
Well, you now have a lathe, milling machine and belt grinder that at least look like they can be made usable with minimal effort & expense. Congratulations!
Great video, amazing machinery! But I HAVE to say, please find an old electrician who has controls experience and abides by relatively modern safety standards and work with him for a day, or humbly pick his brain a bit. It’ll do wonders and may keep you in the land of the living where you can show us more amazing machines!
bless the inventor of the tek screw! (Buildex btw but not sure about the actual person)
cute puppies!
Contrary to what some people believe they really did build stuff that was easier to maintain and last forever back then plus I love that old style shut off switch it's pretty fucking cool
When you turn that dial you are shifting gears either you got some dogs bad or bad shifting fork.. Keith Rucker will have service manual documentation at vintagemachinery.org..
Not quite true with the hydrashift. It moves a valve internal to the headstock which will only move the gears once the spindle stops.
FYI, if you watch for them on Ebay, you can pick up anywhere from a .5hp to around a 3hp 240v single phase input/3 phase output for around 500 bucks each.
I sure wish I saw your video earlier. I missed an old van norman milling machine, I believe #26 that came out of a school. The guy wanted $650. I wish I bought it now seeing how yours worked. The bench top model I was just eyeing was 5000. I need to smarten up.
Sanding belts are a glued lap systems & should have a direction in which it should run. Look for an arrow on the inside of the belt. When using whe belt, you shouldn't hear a thumping sound from the glued flap
Oh my god!!! Love the puppies!!!! Awesome
had the same problem with old belts on a BURR-KING 2 1/2X60, notice they are coming apart at the seem, old adhesive letting go. also make sure the platten is slightly rounded at the top as the belt comes to it
I would say you have some cleaning to do before you start any milling
I use the kalamazoo 6x 40's like that everyday. They still make the units here in the USA new. They are absolute Beast's.. I'll post the bad ass belt we use on them tomorrow when I read the box.
Awesome! I've heard they are monsters! I'd love to know what belts you use!
Re your band saw... Assemble a 440v power supply from a 220v/three phase motor set inline with a 440v motor. You will then have the 440v's you need. I've done it with single phase to three phase and it worked great. Save big $'s on big power.