🌳 Oak Bark Tanning Cattle and Sheep Hides #7
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- čas přidán 5. 03. 2021
- Proceeding with tanning sheep and cattle. The sheep are on maintenance and the Cattle hide goes into the oak bark tan liquor. Full playlist for this series: • Tanning Sheep Skins Se...
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I understand that spending the time to shoot, edit, and post one of these videos can feel like a waste of time, but you have added enormous value to the internet and thereby to the world as a whole. Thank you.
Thanks, you're welcome :)
Appreciate the content!
Would love for you to do a story time video explaining your vision of the tannery, it’s purpose, etc.
Yeah, that's at least one long ass video and an even longer blog post. I do hope to do that one this year though.
Hey Steven thanks for the video. Don't Think that these long form or Video are a waste of you time. They are some of the reason I contribute to your Patreon. I came for the apple taste videos but stayed for the primative skills.
Today my mind went off on --
How could I manage to do tanning myself?
I lack the hand and arm strength to stir hides. So, my thoughts never went beyond learning about the process in general.
But. .. today the thoughts of rolling a barrel came to mind.
Please look up
"barrel drum rollers "
These machines have wheels to hold and rotate a barrel .
They are simple.. a solar panel could run the appropriate motor.
Fins added inside would flip the hides inside..
Even without a motor , rotating the drum by hand would be possible. I see a real possibility for those of us off the electric power grid, and lacking the physical strength to stir hides...
I believe I could build and use a barrel roller to make this task manageable.
The barrel idea might work well. You could also do layering, where you put layers of chopped bark between the hides, add liquor and let it sit for long periods of time.
Rolling barrels, or wet drums and pressure tanners are commonly used in the fur tanning and taxidermy, even by small time guys. The pressure tanners are pricey. And there's debate about whether the pressure really helps much. My current solution is a Harbor freight cement mixer with a lid. Just started experimenting with it.
I bought a 300gal plastic tote to use as my tanning vessel.The small deer hides will be hung from rods similar to the english pit style without the active agitation setup.
That sounds interesting. I've hung folded over a rod. I just made sure to move it along the rod to not end up with untanned strips. If you can fill the tub with enough hides, you won't need as much liquor. Obviously, ideally the hides would not be touching, but if there is agitation, partially solved if they are not too crowded. Too far apart and you again just need more liquor. The traditional tannery I visited in the late 90's before they closed, used a system like that. Big masonry pits in the ground and overhead drive lines with some kind of cam system that gently rocked the skins constantly. The other possibility is adding pieces of wood or plastic or something to take up more space. 300 gallons is a heck of a lot of liquor. If it is rectangular, that helps a lot. Balancing the size/shape and amount of liquor and hides can be a major problem. If the container / hide ratio is too far off, you either end up with way too much strong liquor, or way to much weak liquor. I think for a small scale tannery, some kind of pits or rectangular containers, but with space fillers to make them effectively smaller as needed, could be pretty good. with modern technology, it would be pretty easy to rig up some simple rocking mechanism that comes on periodically. Then again, with modern tech, it might be worth just looking at building a spinning drum or modding a front loading washing machine. Drums are kind of the norm now Another option is doing a partial tan in liquor to get the skins started, then laying away in chipped bark to finish. No maintenance and takes up very little space. It takes longer, but it was long considered to make superior leather to fast tanning in liquors.
if you want to go the hanging method, my idea would be to lay flat your hide and place a large enough venetian blind or bamboo straw blind over the top of the hide. Roll your hide up completly and tie off to hold roll. Submerge the hide in the tall container.
It would be ideal to pre soak the blind in a tannin solution prior to laying on the hide so the wood does not steal tannin from the solution, instead helps to introduce tannin to the hide.
That would cause the same problem as the hide touching itself. If it is touching wood, or anything, the liquor is not getting to that part of the skin at all, unless it comes from the side, or the other side of the hide.
@@SkillCult Damn. I thought pre treating the wood with tannin would surely help but yeah i suppose anything that's not the solution will just hinder the absorption.
Quick question kindof off topic. Have you ever made Mead?
I was intrigued about your orchard, particularly you 100 variety tree... that would make a unique mead, plus Mead calls for tannins. The mead will literally be infused with your interests and home
thanks for all you do,its appreciated ! found a way to auction scion off yet? planted several seedlings out this week i started from seed from you. keep up the good work.
I'm deciding in the next week and getting them out. I'm thinking of listing them all at once on ebay, but ending 5 minutes apart. That should create total chaos lol. I'm pretty much at a loss as the the best way. I don't have time to run consecutive auctions, so it will look something like 6 or this variety, 18 or that one 10 of another and all ending 5 minutes apart on a sunday evening. I hope to learn something from this year, but I think auctioning multiple iitems at once is just problematic. ebay used to do something called dutch auctions, but they stopped. I don't really understand how they worked though.
@@SkillCult will these be single scion offerings or bundled? i hope single scion offering myself. i would like/hope to see a few single auctioned off on patreon if thats possible. i would think patreons might be willing to pay a bit higher for items in support of the apple projects.but who knows right now in the weird economy thats going on right now.either way i will be bidding. let the c-19 money fly...lol
@@elkhound25 I thought I might just do a patron % discount on the final auction price. What do you think of that? I also have odds and ends that I might give away or something. Some of them are going to trades or apple friends. I think they will all be singles.
@@SkillCult Singles sound great. as far as % off for patreon well only speaking for myself i would rather you have the extra funds toward all you do for the homestead community.i cant wait to see whats going to be offered and get in on some bidding.
One of those antique ringer washers that just agitates slowly but nothing more, would do nicely. You could set the motor up on a timer fairly cheaply.
I have one of those, a maytag from the 40's But I have to share it with other people who will probably freak if I tan hides in it.
@@SkillCult 😂😂 “I need to do a load of laundry”
You: “ok, just give me a minute to get my sheep hides out of it”
I have one of those- I may need to try that. Sourcing more tannins at the moment.
Great content! I've been binging this past weekend. I've always wanted to make better use out of my deer hides and farm animal hides farmer friends throw away but wasn't sure how. My biggest problem would be what would substitute tan oak up here in Alberta Canada? Most of the oaks or hardwoods are out east. Firs maybe?
Lot's of conifers, probably most have plenty of tannin and have been used a lot. You also have willows. I have a big article online that is a just basically a huge compilation of sources on tanning content and qualities of different species. skillcult.com/blog/tanningmaterials You'll find plenty of info in there. Birch too I think. And alder! you probalby don't have many species of tree or shrub that are low in tannin. Good problem to have.
Hey mate, loving your videos! I watched your video on how to make the bark solution and I have a few questions;
1: how long do you cook your bits of bark, and how hot?
2; this one kind of sounds dumb but if I find a dead tree with bark on but the tree has been dead for a number of months to years, is the bark still usable, as long as the tree hasn’t started to rot?
EDIT;
Also just heard you say your going to put bark in with the hide, is there any draw backs to that? Or can I always leave the bark in the liquor, or should I seperate it on most occasions
Thank you so much for the videos!
I'd love it if you could do a video working with pigskin, I've always wanted to use it from razorbacks I hunt but it's hard to find any info about people tanning their own.
It bark tans great. The plate is freakin' weird though. I haven't done enough of them to know what to do with that yet. There is actually a boar skin here in lime, but it's old and might be ruined. Hopefully not and I'll learn some more doing that one. For now, I would take part of the skin that is easy enough to deal with and not covered in 1/2 inch of armor, flesh it well, wash in warm soapy water and then lime. You may have to use a sharp tool at a right angle to shave the skin down to get the tissue and fat off enough. But it will hopefully be easier to get more after liming. Wash again in soap and warm water. Soak and scud until it seems clean enough and bark tan it. Super cool skin that barely stretches. it's about getting enough fat out in prepping the skin before tanning. lime helps some.
@@SkillCult Thank you!!
Hello Steven. This was a very informative video. You covered an interesting topic which was the removal of lime residue from the plastic tubs. I wondered if you had any ideas on how to get rid of tan liquor stains on the plastic tubs, and eventually also on concrete flors (I bark tan in an old stable with such type of floring). Please let me know if you know of something!
I think bleach would probably do it, maybe try 10% chlorine/water
Or strong hydrogen peroxide, but stronger than the stuff in the drug store. Harder to get than chlorine.
Update on Osage orange.... no good. I tried 2 solutions: bark for one, wood for other. Test piece of deer hide in each and.a bonus squirrel.
Grew bacteria. pH was a tad over 6.
Besides, the interwoven grain and thin bark makes it a vital to harvest efficiently... and the thorns. Beautiful caramel color, but... not acidic enough I gueaa.
I think that it will work, but it's going to take a crap ton. Also, I thik the more you grind it fine, the more you will get out of it. I saw an operation in I think India or pakistan where they use some kind of wood and basically grind it. Also, I think quebracho wood, possibly the most used tan source in the world, is ground up for extaciton as well. I have to wonder too about the lack of sugars in wood vs. other materials. Bark especially has a lot of carbohydrates in it. Those lactoferment into acids, but also those bacteria likely offer competition to molds and undesirable putrefaction bacteria. I haven't really researched it or paid a lot of attention, but I think adding some carbs in the form of another material, or even just starch or sugar might be useful. Traditionally a lot of hides were actually tanned with blends of different tannin sources. I don't remember what it said, but I think there is a tannin percentage for osage in the vegetable tanning materials article on my website.
Thanks for the reply.
What you said about fermenting.... exactly what it smells like.
I left a piece in the solution...see what happens.
@@SkillCult ...grinding... funny you mention that. I plan to cast a couple concrete rollers with 1/4" mesh wire hardware cloth embedded to make something similar to a grain mill for processing bark, etc
would you recommend splitting big hides (like moose) in two halves. one half being the thin belly half and brain tan it for clothing and bark tanning the thicker back half for utility stuff? does that makes sense?
check these diagrams out; I do the one on the right,but there are options. They are designed to make tanning easier originally and to divide out the best and worst. www.zackwhite.com/Selecting-Leather
I notice that when you're done with the fleshing, dehairing, and rinsing of the hides your go straight into the bark tan with the hides dripping wet. Doesn't that dilute the tanning solution a bit? Also would the hide absorb the tannins from the solution and tan faster if you were to ring the excess water from the hide before going into the tanning solution?
It isn't enough water to matter. If it is, you would need stronger tannin. If you were concerned, you could just drip it out for a minute. You want it to be completely soaked up, because the tannin starts to set and work right away. If parts are not soaked up, it won't start out evenly. For tanning step especially, you want it fully hydrated throughout with no dry spots. I think it would be okay to wring and put in, and then work it right away to be sure it is well hydrated, but not necessary. It's going to take a long time no matter what, so I don't think it would be worth the effort.
8:40: Instead of using a pump, i had an idea to contain the hide and solution in a pressurized container. The positive pressure will force the soaking of tannin into the hide quicker... though this would need experimentation as I don't have such a container thus don't know if the pressure would negatively effect the hide in any way... just a logical idea.
I bet if you look there will be a patent on that from the 19th century. There are jillions of old tanning patents out there. It seems like a very sound idea. Maybe a drum that you create a partial vaccuum in, with hides and liquor, then tumble it. I'd be almost surprised if that hasn't been tried. Good idea! A little high tech for me tho ;) But here is something cool. I read an other account where they would sew goat skins together into a two hide bag, put some liquor inside, blow it up and then float it around, turning it with sticks in a warm liquor. The hide would of course puff up from the warm air and be pushing the liquor inside through the skin. I don't recall whether they put the grain in or out, but i would guess out, as air travels that way more easily.
@@SkillCult
Patents... of course.... Now you got me on a quest to look and print some good ones up.
That account is epic. That'll be kept in the organic hard drive for sure. Thanks
I’ve never tanned before, and may never actually get the time and energy to do it myself, but two basic questions. I have a lot of varieties of Red Oak on my place. Considering the acorns (which do take two years to mature) are higher in tannin than white oak (which I collect every year), are they a better source for tanning leather? And if there’s a problem with weak solution, is there any harm in overloading it with tannin? Thanks
Any oak will have enough tannin, but my friend back east is not a fan of red oak bark for some reason I don't recall. They will make leather with different characteristics. As far as the acorns, they are rarely if every used for tanning and it doesn't make a lot of sense probably, but you could and a more bitter acorn will probably have a lot more tannin. The caps are probably a better source if they have not been rained on and one species in the mediterranean and middle east is used extensively in tanning. but it has a fat corky cap that is produced in abundance. You have an axe and trees, so there would be little point for you to go that route. As I said in the vid, you can get something called case hardening if the liqour is too strong. It is uncommon, but it happens. Usually once the hide is well underway, the liquor can be very strong without any harm.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah I guess the bark just makes more sense. I have a lot of oak on my place. I will probably never get ambitious enough to give it a try, such is the price of living a modern life. Can’t wait to see how yours come out! PS: I did go ahead with the goat rawhide collar project. It looks great. I’ll post a pic on Cordwood page if I remember and I’ll let you know how it holds up over time. Thanks for the advice
Would love to see that horse hide
I think I show it in the bark tanning clinic video with zach
So the traditional pit style you mentioned in one of your videos; did they actually bury it? Or leave the pit open so they could service it like you are here? I suppose it would have to be the latter?
They are large masonry pits in the ground big enough for a spread out hide. They would lay down bark, then a hide, then shovel in bark to a certain thickness, etc. so that the hides don't touch each other, then fill with water and leave it for X number of months, before changing it out. It is said by some to make superior leather, but it's slow and wasteful of tannin. I'm not sure if anyone does it anymore on a commercial scale.
@@SkillCult shame to loose quality like that. I just got access to a butcher about an hour away so I'm gonna go load up on hides for the spring.
Last batch ended up all hide glue as I was very persistent on cleaning them and slicing them up. Oh and a freak snow storm blew through as I was skudding the elk hide and me being an idiot thought "that's fine, it will keep it cold if not frozen till it melts off a little" came back to a very green/blue hide covered in black spots... but still have about 50lbs of bark so should be able to get one in the spring.
Have you ever done a urine and wood ash Tan I know its nasty but it does work
No. I still don't entirely understand the chemistry and uses of urine in tanning. There is a long history though. It does get very alkaline as it ages, but I'm sure there is more going on than that.
I have been experimenting with fish skins and plan on urine tanning some in the future. This is taken from the book “Fish Leather, tanning and sewing” by Lotta Rahme and Dag Hartman
“Urine contains another substances, Formic acid and uric acid which have a curing effect on the skin. When urine is left to stand, ammonia is given off. Ammonia leads to the breakdown of fats in the skin creating glycerol and free fatty acids. These fatty acids penetrate the skin and react with with the leathers fibers, tanning the skin. - it goes on to note that they have had better luck with using baby’s urine. - I bet that’s fun to try and collect 😂
@@TJHutchExotics
Wow! I had no idea there was such a tradition in tanning. I wonder if this was discovered by accident or if someone thought, hmm, why not just piss on it. Lol
@@KevinsDisobedience there is SO much history. Stephen has tons of no longer copyrighted books on his website. I’ve delved into them some- but I’m weird amd prefer reading on paper. - I’ve wondered about various “discoveries” on a lot of things. What really intrigues me is how they figured out what plants are medicinal and what they treat. 🤯 lol
I have recently boiled some mesquite wood and bark for dyeing and retanning porpouses, poured some ferrum acetate to modify the end colour.
The liquor started growing mold on top.
Can that be a problem?
So, some ideas. One is that chemistry varies a lot in different solutions. There is way more sugars in bark and they ferment, like saurkraut or yogurt, creating acids. In the absence of that competition, you might get more mold in a soltion made mostly of wood with a lot less carbohydrate. In commercial tanning, materials are often mixed together. Also, if it is very weak, it is more likely to grow stuff. A little is okay, but keep the hide submersed.
@@SkillCult
Can decreasing the pH (acidify it with vinegar) help till i got to strengthen the solution, chop some more wood and boil it.
Haven't got to soak the hide just yet. So there's nothing floating on the liquor on this moment.
@@dblackpillespanol1255 It may, though most of the acid formed is probably lactic in natural fermentation. I think they may add sugars, or again, other higher carb materials sometimes. I don't know that much about it and I never measure ph. I just ignore it and do what I do and hope it works. But I'm rarely using low carb materials. Also, you probably don't want to overdo it. It could be an interesting experiment, but I think if you put enough in to completely suppress mold, it will be a bit much.
@@dblackpillespanol1255 Also depends on how it is tanned and how long it takes. If quick tanned, it isn't sitting in there for months and there isn't as much time for the skin or liquor to spoil. Did you read all the stuff on my webpage about mesquite? maybe there is a clue in there.
So I've got some willow bark and hides soaking in it..turned almost pink..is willow a good tannin source do you know..I mean I hear mixed reviews.
It varies greatly in tannin content, but in general, yes and it's been used extensively, even commercially. The free stuff section of my website has some books on willow cultivation and one of them has a table of tannin contents of basket willow barks. But you're not going to know about your own species. You might be ablew to find data, but experience is probably more useful. Almost no one uses enough of anything. If the source is a little weak, you'll need a whole lot of it. also, dried and cut fine. Fresh bark or especially fresh and not chopped will not let go of it's tannin as easily.
and color just varies a lot between materials. It also varies due to pretreatments, because PH has a major effect on dye colors.
Thanks for the insight..the bark is fresh so that explains why it looked weak after simmering all day in an old hot water tank ..I did check out ur website and am gonna order some basket willow from you. You are like my go to guy for anything tanning thanks for all ur advice on the subject.
Hi ! I have a question about methods to remove hair from hides. I read in an old tanning manual a method called "à l'étouffée" (it's in french because I'm French ^^). It could be litteraly translated by "smothering". The manual explain we have to put hides in a closed chamber, and let them start to "ferment" (which can be accelerated by a smoke fire to heat them). After that, hair should be easily removed, as with lime.
So, do you know this method, do you use it, and how to use it ? (I haven't seen any video where you talk about it)
It is sometimes called sweating. Basically bacteria and enzymes attack the skin and destroy the hair roots and epidermis first.. It is basically controlled decay. It requires careful attention so that the skin does not decay too much. I would not start with that technique. Lime is more reliable and easy to use. You can experiment with sweating later if you want to refine the process. There is a school of thought that says lime damages hides and hides that are dehaired by sweating are better.
And, no, I don't use it, though I'm curious. I would not try it with dry or old hides, only very fresh. usually they are stacked in piles, and as you said sometimes in a warm I think warm damp room, so that bacteria act quickly and evenly on the skin.
@@SkillCult Oh, I hadn't seen your answers !
Yes, what you explained it's what I read
But, it's also wrote that deliming skin with calcareous water take more time and steps than with "pure water"
And, my water is very calcareous ^^
So, that's why I would have preferred to use sweating
@@le_marchombre You can use drenching to remove lime and acidify water. Ferment a few handfuls of wheat bran in a bucket of water and soak the hide for a day or so while fermenting. It helps remove the calcium. It can damage the skin, so be careful and just do it for a little while. There are other ways to remove calcium from water. Not sure what would be easy.
@@SkillCult Ok, thanks for these infos
And, do you now if ash lye can be used a bit as lime, to prepare the skin for hair removal ?
Supposedly they used hemlock bark around here in Appalachia, could that be a thing or is it bs? Thanks
Yeah, they did. It was a gigantic industry. They basically swarmed the forests, cut down the trees, stripped the bark and left the wood. duckduckgo.com/?q=hemlock+bark+tannery+yard&t=ffab&iax=images&ia=images
Please use japanese knotweed leaves, sumac leaves, or oak bark in appalachia. Hemlocks are rare and dying.
@@dennislanigan1082 I’ve got a ton of hemlock on my land here in East Tennessee that’s infested with the algid, I’ve been treating my biggest trees and the ones along my driveway but it’s too expensive to treat them all, sadly they’re going the way of the ashe, elm and chestnut. I’m planning on this summer cutting some for lumber before they just die and rot. If there was someway of getting the chemical from the state or government I’d love to treat everything but I can’t find any freebies, if anyone knows of any, please let me know.
@@shanek6582 looks like there's research on predatory beetles in Knoxville. ag.tennessee.edu/EPP/Pages/Research/RearingHWA.aspx
Maybe the county extension office has some ideas? In NC they will pay for chemical treatment. But yeah I hear you. If I was surrounded by dead hemlocks I would likely use them for tanning too. I used to tan with hemlocks out west. The leather is nice. Just saying that Japanese Knotweed, Sumac, and oak bark have higher levels of tannins than hemlocks if you'd like to avoid them.
This group might help: www.twrf.net/tennessee-hemlock-conservation-partnership
Friend, does the bark of the Sidr tree work or any other bark?
I'm not sure I know about that tree. Watch this. there is a link to a long list of tanning materials, some from different parts of the world. czcams.com/video/gbD2h3g0_Nc/video.html I would look the tree up on the internet searching for either tannic acid content, or if it has been used in the tanning industry.
Thank you for your beautiful information
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Shorts Please I want to know about tanning through your content in order.