I disagree but If Capcom won't try to remake the Tri style of Underwater Combat, how about this, czcams.com/video/ndR1xPetOsw/video.html from Ragegamingvideos where he redoes Underwater Combat in a interesting way?
exactly. idk why some people are so focused on the meta gaming aspect of monster hunter (you have people complaining about turf wars for the love of god). I honestly couldn't care less if underwater is clunky, that's sort of the point. it's not your domain. you can add in-game mechanics like gear sets to counter some of the disadvantages, etc. You can absolutely get creative with it. some people dont care about immersion at all in MH, and just wanna see big damage numbers and create all kinds of meta builds with 20+ skills on an equipment set. i hope they dial it down by a lot tbh. MH was fun when they kept things simple
@@ashfields9273 People claim that immersion is why MHWorld is the best, or Monster Hunter Dos for it's seasons. But this is why MH3 is the most immersive. No artificial restrictions in where you can go. Imagine if GTA6 removed swimming, boats, submarines, carriers, and the entire coastline, just cause some people thought it was clunky. That's ridiculous. Now imagine if they did so while 77% of the playerbase wanted it in, and making certain missions take place on remote islands, with objectives that enter the water, which you can't follow. Outrageous honestly. GTA gives players the freedom to enter water for _fun. Despite it being a waste in that game._ MH should give players the freedom to enter water, *_because that's what hunters do._* Limited development resources are an invalid excuse here. Monster Hunter is Capcom's best selling franchise, and TONS of resources were devoted to making World more immersive, _without any new combat dimensions to show for it._ Guess the boils on Vaal Hazak's ass were too enthralling.
A cool new addition would be Nakarkos underwater. It's been hinted at being aquatic before so it may be interesting to see the bone squid in a different environment.
a third phase at 20% health where the bone graveyard falls through into a deep underwater cavern. narkarkos's shell can now be broken, relealing the pulsing glow of the cuttlefish skin. it is fast, and uses its dragon cannon in more frequency.
I agree, but not necessarily as a "fight"... my headcanon is that Nakarkos wears the bone armour on land but not underwater; as the bones would limit it's maneuverability, so if you found it underwater it'd be boneless but my idea isn't to fight a boneless Nakarkos underwater; my idea is to show the ecology between Nakarkos and Ceadeus... you are tasked with protecting a pod of juvenile Ceadeus (which would be about the size of an Orca) from various underwater predators, first Royal Ludroths, a Gobul, a Lagiacrus and then finally a Nakarkos... but the Nakarkos cannot be slain, as it is too strong for you to handle at the moment and starts massacring the young Ceadeus, with you powerless to stop it... but just as the final juvenile Ceadeus is about to be killed; an adult Ceadeus comes from the depths and dukes it out with the Nakarkos, with the Ceadeus being victorious and the Nakarkos forced to flee This quest would show you why the Guild wants to protect/monitor the Ceadeus, while they are dangerous in certain circumstances; Nakarkos are the greater threat by far and so by helping the young Ceadeus mature, they'll be able to keep the Nakarkos in check, and hopefully by protecting the carves from the Nakarkos; these Ceadeus might become more passive around hunters
sure giant whale with 2 horns or giant volcanic bipedal dragon that has volcanic eruption instead of wings are cool af but seeing giant kraken like monster covered in bones with circular mouth filled with teeth underwater would be scary
@@HeavyWings yeah, but what I was imagining was that we could see one in the open ocean, in it's natural habitat, competing with Ceadeus for dominion over the ocean... I always thought it'd be cool for there to be "Observation Quests", which would be non-hunting quests that allow you to observe monsters living their lives, maybe doing so unlocks extra info in the Hunter's Notes, and even a special layered armour set... these could range from watching a Rathalos/Rathian kill an Aptonoth and then you could follow it to it's nest where it'll be feeding it's young, with a baby Silver Rathalos among their ranks to something extreme, like wandering around the Sacred Land and getting a brief glimpse into the life of an Alatreon, watching it's elemental energy shift the lava lakes of the Sacred Land into obsidian rock almost instantly These quests would give their own unique rewards (like layered armour, or special armour decorations or even something akin to the weapon talismans from Iceborne) and could give great insights into the monster's lives when they are not trying to tear us to shreds...
Honestly that transition from land to sea came with a sensation that you were entering a realm where the monster held the advantage, bringing with it a greater sense of danger, made mastery of undersea battles all the more satisfying.
I remember seeing how Flooded Forest looked in Rise and, never having fought the monster granted, I thought "y'know, a terrestrial Gobul could actually work in a muddy place like this, it could hide in the shallow water still, and could catch us by surprise by lurking just below the surface. Imagine it sticking its bulb out from the water while we're on land, that'd be cool." I too did not know about this 3U version of Gobul before this video and omg when I tell you seeing the exact bulb attack on land that I had in my head already existed I was SHOOK. Kinda surprising we didn't get Gobul in Rise considering that, here's hoping next game.
3U was my first and STILL to this day only MH game ive completed. Im shocked to this revelation. No underwater ever since then . and gobul, one of my favorite leviathans…. never the same 😂 gobul feels so natural in mh3u.
the best part of gobul for me its sucking player into its mouth, even niblesnarf cant suck player with its powerfull vacum stomach on land. without it gobul kinda not scary at battle, maybe thats why it does not appear on rise.
Disagree on the fair part. This dude is a meme for broken hitboxes and is the poster boy for the most ridicule I've seen in the community. Funnily enough his fight was literally fixed in his 3u return, but since his FU fight was so egregious people STILL ridicule him for that🤣🤣
It is really interesting to see evolutions, retrospectives, and other stuff from earlier games as a rise newcomer. Thank you for making these videos, I love them.
On one hand underwater Nakarkos On the other hand we saw the results of a year of dev time in Zorah Magdaros On a personal note I don't want the Deserted Island and Lagiacrus to return without underwater
Man, this video makes me want to be a fly in the wall at Capcom and find out what their internal stance is on Underwater Combat is, specifically how hard their, "No, we aren't doing that again," is. My friend who really got me into Monster Hunter actually started with Tri on the Wii, and mains Lance to this day- so He's particularly fond of the mechanic. He also however, admits that's its most likely never going to return. Nothings really going to change the fact that Developing Underwater Combat is basically making a 2nd Game, and require the resources and time to do so. To the point most likely the best situation for getting Underwater Combat again will be, "Here's the New Monster Hunter game... It's literally the previous one but it now has Underwater Combat now and nothing else new."
We know at the very least Capcom isn't completely against the mechanic, as the book Dive into Monster Hunter World revealed World initially planned underwater combat but ended up scrapping it (maybe we would've gotten it if they hadn't focused an entire year on Zorah Magdaros, yes, they spent the first year of development on that, so maybe water combat isn't seen as that big an investment anymore lmao)
Monster hunter is Capcom's biggest IP that has generated nearly 50 million copies with 5th gen sales alone. They probably have all the resources to try whatever they want. What it comes down to is development time and whether or not they're actually willing, not whether they're able to Underwater combat is a generally disliked mechanic in most games. Sekiro is the only game where it didn't feel like a hindrance due to the fact that you swam extremely fast and could dash to cover massive distance I personally want them to retry water combat and give us levels of mobility like we had in Sekiro. I also personally like underwater in games because unlike even horror games, exploring deep underwater sections in games (especially with the fear that there is something lingering beneath) actually terrifies me and excites me. Subnautica is such a game that really made me realize my fear for the depths of the ocean. I'm sure monster hunter could capture this if they were to make deep sections of underwater like a fully fledged sea area with monsters hidden in them and many secrets waiting to be found! That's just my take tho
@@marcusaaronliaogo9158 I think you missed my point, Marcus. I was specifically referring to the *mobility* of swimming around and dashing. Just general movement that's done outside of combat for traversal. During combat, I agree they'd have to think long and hard about how they would design the 14 weapons to play out underwater: stuff like attack speed, underwater combos, whether or not there should be s since underwater combat in 3rd gen lacked this. There would be a lot to consider. Ultimately, this is where the risk lies. If they don't nail the underwater combat then it's going to pull the game experience down. This is why I said that developing something that's very intricate and nuanced requires time to think and play test, which increases development time. Now, what it comes down to is whether Capcom is willing to go out of their way to do this, not whether they're able to. They have generated a lot of money that they can probably hire as many employees as they want to focus on this part of the game. I just personally want them to give underwater another shot
I hated it while playing through it on the 3ds. Recently, I started to emulate it on my PC while using a proper Xbox controller... And I really appreciated it much more this time around. My main gripe with it was that it was clunky because of the touchscreen/ dpad camera control, but using a proper analogue stick almost instantly erased most of my complaints about underwater combat. I really want to see it again. I always felt really cool when the monster would flee and I'd be like "oh no you don't!" And this puny ass human would dive after and chase a giant thunder crocodile IN THE WATER. I felt like the coolest, ballsiest mf-er in the land.
@@HeavyWings Yeah I remember you saying that about the Wii U, and you made a lot of good points in the video about why it shouldn't come back... But, as a selfish hope, I still wish that they will try it again.
I mean I get the idea that they need time to create whole new movesets, but we're already getting oversaturated with attacks to the point they had to give us a crappy version of DMC's weapon switching mechanic melded with style switching just to be able to use them all. You could easily bring the switch movesets as a way to bolster the underwater's moveset. It definitely shows that CC is starting to run out of options in that giving us more options that are all available to us at easily at once. The core movesets are there, unless they pull a world or a tri, unless they add nothing, they aren't being hurt. They certainly aren't afraid to add a large amount of attacks that a large amount of people aren't going to pay attention to. Underwater combat's greatest strength is diversity. It changes things up, in gameplay, in monster design and ecology. In my eyes it needs to come back for the latter two being more than a good enough reason. Giving monsters like Lagi their full movesets outside of water just feels cheap, it'd be like making Rathian the only Rath in a game. And it takes away from the ecological element of seeing monsters in their element. Watching them in their environment, instead of waddling like Jyra. Which is more comical than anything. Putting in a lot of effort into underwater in one game lays the foundation, once that foundation is set, just like the ground based combat, it can built off of just as easily or re-used just as a easily. Sieges are more asset wasting than that, yet there a groups of people that love them. A lot of work, for a smaller amount of the game can really add to the game. It's also building on that overall loop of gameplay without completely shuffling the core up, for example, the wirebug or speed of rise, which many people were not fans of. Hell imagine the work on World with it's ecological elements, be it turf wars, or monster interactions, or environments, the size of the maps, lots of changes that people could of decided not to like. But Capcom took a risk that changed the DNA of monster hunter in a lot of ways, and it payed off. It can pay here as well in the same ways.
I'm a person who wants underwater to come back but I admit I have to agree with everything you said. Underwater as a mechanic would be risky to bring back unless it was a main part of the game like Subnautica. EDIT: I did not see that Jyratodus Plot Twist coming... (my least favorite monster lol)
So I’ve seen the video now and I’ve got some thoughts. I understand the points you made but I’m not sure that I agree. Without getting into my “ideal” monster hunter game, I do have some ideas that I think will likely be implemented in the next game given the trend in the series. 3 had underwater. 4 added verticality. World has a focus on a new living world with lots going on in the maps. Rise added the wirebugs which were essentially magic methods of traversal I don’t think we’re getting the clutch claw or wirebugs back, instead I think we’ll get a basic grappling hook that has limited combat use. It will primarily exist for exploration/traversal. But the main change will be an “open” world. Maybe not to botw extent, but making all the different maps into one giant one might make sense to especially if it’s specifically a follow up to world. Maybe not set in the new world but just in terms of theming. You talk about how most of the games focus on adding onto what was already there, and how they should stick to that rather than essentially adding a new game mode. My thing with that is what else would they add to combat? Tbh I don’t think adding more to the main combat system is necessary, and at some point it would just become overwhelming. Adding underwater, plus the grappling hook and potentially a hang glider (which already kinda exists in world it’s just limited) would allow you to explore nearly everywhere. I’m not sure if this is the “right” way for the series to go, but given the past few games adding more dimension to the world in general, I think it would make pretty decent sense. Also you talk about time and resources here which I kind of disagree with. Primarily because of how much of an advancement they were able to make with world, I kind of assume they’ve grown their studio tremendously, so I think they’d have more resources available.
Well, this comment has aged quite well from what we're seeing in Wilds, lol. Underwater is still up in the air (my guess is probably not, they're probably putting all the work into the huge world), but you guessed gliding which seems to be incorporated into the mount, and it looks like we might be getting the slinger back too, which originally had a grappling hook function with the wedge beetles that could possibly be returning.
Four words. Lagiacrus underwater turfs wars. If that's not cool enough on its own to bring back underwater elements then what are we even doing with our lives?
I just dream about a MH game mainly fochus on the sea. Like, sea monster hunters. Navigate a ship, use harpoons and follow up the monster using jetski-like mounts and other stuff to make the hunting on the water faster and more fluid. Its a bit of a stretch because you also need to adapt the humungous weapons of MH to that concept, but the idea is just so cool.
yes i think it should return people say underwater combat was clunky but that was part of the mechanic you as a human was out of your element same as when a underwater monster was on land it was limited and clunky in way with its move set Glad to see you are back again with another video i hope you are healthy and eating well as always i love your videos😂🤣
I think a good way to satisfy the people that want under water back would be making a smaller spin off game with less/new weapons that is at least 70% underwater I've never Experienced under water Combat before and I haven' t really thought much about this "spin off game idea" conseguence's to the franchise but i think it would be cool to basically "become" like under water monster with a Little things to do above water and a lot under
You could also just play the old games, they can all be emulated relatively decently, and Tri is soon going to get a working online private server so most of its content will be accessible again.
I personally would rather have Underwater over Super Skills like Arts or Wire Skills, or annoyingly mandatory gimmick like Clutch Claw The thing with Underwater, its not really a gimmick its a enviroment change, the only problem really is to make equally huge amount of Water fight monsters as there is Land fight monsters But its WAY easier to balance than Arts and Wire Skills who make the pacing of fights to go either too fast or too slow, but its not forcefull like Clutch Claw who only give you negatives on top of negatives
"But its WAY easier to balance than Arts and Wire Skills" I wouldn't be so sure. Depth perception is a significant issue in an action game, especially in one with as heavy action commitment as Monster Hunter, and it's one that affects shorter weapons much more significantly than the longer ones, and the only way to 'fix' it is to make all fights take place on, or very close to the sea/lake/w/e floor, at which point you just have ground combat with extra steps.
@@val7885 Yeah i do aggre the Smaller weapons get treated unfairly Then we have Switcaxe and Lance who somehow are really fast Gunlance was a joke as allways since Gen 2 Game But idk, i feel like its easier giving new moveset to underwater fight to make every weapon feel equal or stronger compared to land compared to how Capcom seems to not knowing how to make usefull Arts and Wire Skills but having stupidly powerfull moveset like Valor Longsword or just downright broken ones at the cost of base moveset being treated like garbage like Switchaxes Or you get nothing at all like Gunlances, Insect Glaives, Hunting Horn, and Chargeblade
I think it really should. Just imagine the possibilities from the return of monsters like Abyssal Lagiacrus, Gobul, and Ceadeus to the addition of new ones. They could even add underwater mechanics to monsters like Zamtrios which came after underwater combat.
Thank you so much for this video I'd didn't think you would actually make it. Here's a comment for the algorithm. And oh everyone watching this video remember to give the video a like I genuinely love this channel and I hope heavy wings stays motivated to make more videos.
typing as i watch but the answers yes, at first i thought walking on the sea floor and having them "swim" above you might work as an inbetween, but then narwa and ibushi fought like that and they were awful. i only ever played tri with the classic controller on a decent tv screen, using mostly greatsword and longsword, had 0 issues with it, i can only imagine how it was on 3ds with a tiny little screen and no proper sticks. especially if we stick with world/iceborne's focus on ecology, water environments would feel like natural parts of the ecosystem. quality of life and mobility would help a lot underwater, it would never be 1:1 with what it was, it'd likely be way better. resource wise yes it'd be a lot, but as we saw with the non flat environemnt of world and their initial attempts to get leviathan's working their they are ambitious. world alone was capcoms biggest single game, bigger than any resident evil, any street fighter any marvel v capcom, and rise, sunbreak and iceborne on top of that make up over half of all monster hunter sales in history, it's a behemoth of a franchise now, one they want to keep pushing. Piscine wyvern's are pretty crap, and amphibians lack any underwater fighting, adding underwater would help flesh them out/their movesets. the sink into ground swim is honestly worse to me as it just means you can't hit the legs and it looks very silly. as for lagi, i'd rather he stay gone than have no underwater, he's one of the best monsters but without underwater he's no threat.
While under water combat certainly took up a lot of resources, Tri was a very experimental game with every monster either being new or redesigned and with a new weapon of its own, no reused maps, a whole new monster skeleton and other features like dynamic lighting; plus I think it’s a bit of an exaggeration to say every weapon needs a new move set for underwater, the move sets are more or less identical to the surface version with some minor tweaks and as someone who started with tri, it wasn’t that hard to get to grips with. All that combined with using a different console from a different manufacturer that’s also under powered and I think it’s understandable why the game is light on content. Even despite that though, the immersion and beauty of the underwater environments was unmatched, probably until world came out and I can only dream of what they’d be able to accomplish with modern tech.
Underwater combat making Plesioth less frustrating is an absolute win for me so i really want UC to come back with new aquatic monsters not just for Lagia
Id like to point to one thing that always has been in all monster hunter games: Sand! In mh sand has alwasys been a sort of 'solid ocean' - by this I mean many sand monsters can move under the surface freely and attack from below (eg.diablos, nibelsnarf). Jhen mohran is basically a whale and humans are shown to travel on deserts using sail powered sand ships. Im not sure what my point is, I just thought the way sand is like water in mh would be relevant to your idea of worldlike mud / rise water areas.
No risk, no gain Definitely should come back. With better controls and monsters with more complex move sets, it would be very cool and immersive. In addition to having an awesome aesthetic that cannot be replicated in any other way
I thought you were gonna mention Nakarkos when you mentioned new monsters underwater. I didn't think about till you mentioned squids, he does have the swimmimg phase in gen that kinda sucks.
I’m just gonna say, as a newcomer to 3U with no other context of the series, Plesioth was one of my favorite fights in the entire game, and might be in the series now. It felt like it fit so well, and was arguably more fun in the water than on land, where being able to hit it is incredibly limited. It was just a really cool fight because of how well it worked. I cant imagine which fights now might be improved because of underwater combat, specifically Jyratodus.
As fair as this video is with swimming, I can't say I appreciate how dismissive you were to the clutch claw, especially when the discourse around it is so muddy from the lack of distinction whether people refer to the entire claw and all the actions it provided or if they're referring to just tenderizing (which seems like the root of most people's distaste). Though maybe that'd make good video material: a dive/review of other tertiary mechanics like this, giving them fair looks and what they did right and wrong for the series
34:15 i should point out, that out of those 18 monsters in mh3, only 3 are returning (rathian, rathalos and diablos) so yes, less monsters than ever, but the largest percentage of new entry out of the total game roaster by far
Mainline series has not created a single new leviathans since Tri (p3rd and 3u are done mostly by portable Game iirc) so that speaks for them how they handle Leviathans and underwater combat as whole
Though there is separation and Portable titles in capcoms eyes fall under spinoff, they still categorise it as mainline too. It's a spinoff within mainline.
I love the hate he has towards Jyuratodus, it is really funny how he edits his own voice to reflect the disgust he has towards the brother of the Hot fish that white Fatalis eats with SALSA. Edit: But who would think the mudfish would be the future of water combat?
My two cents is Tri Underwater Fighting at the time wasn't the worst but definitely needed improvement and if Capcom focused on making fighting underwater as smooth as what they did with climbing the future of underwater battles could be epic.
Personally I think underwater combat should return because it has so much potential with new maps and monsters! And the combat is supposed to be somewhat clunky as you are out of your element in the water, it's meant to be more challenging. Nice video nonetheless!
This video is going to be incredible, I almost commented on your last video asking about more long-form content but didnt want to be greedy. Thanks Wings!
Personally i wish it would come back. I feel like there is a way to bring it back in a limited way. For example only using certain weapons underwater. They could add special customization to bowguns and those weapons to allow more fluid underwater combat. If they introduce some device or something like wire bugs but underwater if could make it interesting. It could bring back old monsters as well as add new ones. Maybe they can have 1 completely submerged area underwater and maps that change with season. You could have one new map like the flooded forest where in a quest could be dry season and another flooded. It could add to that map and have different monsters. This way it does not fully use a lot of resources in animating all the weapons but just a few and only certain monsters. I believe it can be done well. I really liked swimming underwater in the flooded forest it did feel cramped but had an amazing atmosphere. Never knew what was lurking in those murky waters. It also allows for more unique water dwelling monsters. I hope it comes back at some point.
So what is made of the weapons that can't fight underwater? Locking people out of using their favourite weapon for a new gameplay mechanic is a very questionable thing to do.
I really can't argue with the amount of resources needed to make Underwater Combat work in the first place. And I'm honestly not expecting it in the 6th Generation of games. Even with the move to the RE Engine and the massive strides they are making with it, Underwater Combat needs a whole lot more time in the oven if it's supposed to be anywhere near good. That said however, I do think that they will try it again eventually. The RE Engine is one of the major reasons why I think that this most controversial of mechanics is going to return. After extensive internal testing, of course. Why? Monster Hunter has used custom builds of the MT Framework for most of its life. The same basic engine was used for both Monster Hunter 2 and Iceborne. Different iterations, but the same core. This worked relatively well, giving us the celebration that was Generations and Generations Ultimate. But it also had drawbacks when they did more than it was ever intended for. We see this in Tri and World with their limited roster and skeletons respectively. In both cases their Expansion greatly increased the number of Large Monsters, close to tripling and doubling respectively. This does speak a very clear message of finding footing and pushing further. Do you want to know how Rise and Sunbreak compare? Both outnumber World and Iceborne respectively. Rise adds a third on top of World while Sunbreak has only 10 more than Iceborne currently, but this is despite using a new engine. With more unique skeletons being used. There are individual challenges, but there is little doubt that Capcom will eventually reach a point where all the basic rigs will be in the RE Engine with a lot of creativity freed up. How do you innovate after that? Verticality is reaching its limit and some form of fast movement will likely return. As will Palamutes if Iori's parents are anything to go by. But what would be truly new to most if not everyone? While more half-submerged Monsters are definitely going to happen, Almudron and Somnacanth being four other examples with Beotodus being a fifth, they will be the same as regular new Monsters. Novel at first, but par of the course the third time around. This leads me to believe that Capcom is going to revisit Underwater Combat eventually. It's the only true expansion to gameplay left at this stage. In fact, I'd even say that the half-submerged state represents an "in-between" for when underwater Combat does return. This could replace the awkward run to deep water while the Monster's moveset still changes. I'll admit that I am incredibly biased towards this, but I don't see much of a possible evolution that avoids the ocean indefinitely.
Land-based verticality mechanics are fairly optimized. What more could Capcom do short of changing the left hand tool to improve verticality if it's already working as intended? The only people who found underwater combat a bane were people who failed to adapt to movement in water and those that didn't want to. If movement was the issue then Capcom could increase movement in water just as they sped up the movement of sluggish weapons like the gunlance, greatsword, even the hunting horn. A hunter shouldn't have had trouble moving at increased speeds in water if s/he can lug around weapons that weigh a ton and take attacks from monsters that weigh more. Adding new underwater specific attacks to existing monsters that CAN swim could be a bit difficult but most aquatic monsters share the same skeletons with different skins over them. Most of them already share the same movement. There are animations and mo-caps that exist for older weapons and many animations on new weapons are shared from old ones, on land AND underwater. Even the new weapons that don't have underwater animations would just take some of the mo-caps from existing weapons that do. Making new underwater maps would be as difficult as making new land based maps so that's moot (Coral Highlands should have been the Coral SEA). It WOULD take resources to add all of the above, but it likely won't be as intensive as one would think. Capcom still has those resources from all the games they made (including the "wasted" TRI) to, as you put it, "build upon what already exists." I dislike the idea of a Lagiacrus fighting like a Jyuratodus. A Rathalos (as well as other monsters that fight in the air for extended periods like Bazelgeuse, Kushala, etc.) is fought in 3 axes and THERE'S NOT ONE SINGLE COMPLAINT given about combat on a 3rd axis in those fights. You claim that a Lagiacrus doing the same attacks on land that it does underwater as unremarkable, yet it DOES have one or two unique attacks underwater. Does a Rathalos not have the same attacks on the ground that he does in the air? Why are the unique Rathalos air attacks remarkable and not the Lagiacrus' underwater ones? Lagiacrus is the ruler of the SEA, but you would rather fight it in a shallow pond locking to the X and Y axes, while the hunter enjoys a Z. A Rathalos and a Lagiacrus are equal in a sense; the difference being one flies up on Z and the other swims down. You can make the argument that the fights are different because the hunter is locked to the X and Y on land. Except you made it a constant point throughout your video that verticality is great. In addition to wall climbing, ledge-hopping, etc, the Insect Glaive, left arm tools, and hunter arts have taken away some of the Z-axis advantage flying monsters had. This advantage on Z is intrinsically removed in waterborne monsters because you can simply swim to it no matter where it is on that axis. The Jyuratodus template doesn't answer how to incorporate aquatic elders that many want to see return. Dire Miralis' problem of hitting the chest has been solved because of the aforementioned ways to achieve verticality to hit its chest or grapple to it outright. But what of Ceadeus? Would you relegate it to a boring Jhen Mohran ship fight, have it sliding around like a Jyura in shin-high water, or mayhaps have it move on land on it's flippers like a seal? Capcom has more funds and (after announcing a 2025 release) more than a year to make underwater combat work in WILDS IF they chose to. Don't shut the idea out because YOU feel it would be a "bad decision" for them.
I've heard alot of people complain saying it doesn't make sense because he seems to be soley for the coral highlands but I love the idea of him dropping in the ocean and just being "well this is amazing"
I'd really love it to come back. I know they can do it bigger and better than it's ever been before, no matter how long it takes. But, even if they never return the mechanic some of us would absolutely love a switch port. A second analog stick makes it much easier.
As annoying and sometimes clunky the underwater combat was, it still was a fun time fighting water monsters in their environment. It really makes you feel you are fighting them at their peak.
Thing is, underwater combat is SUPPOSED to feel clunky, since now the hunter is in an unfamiliar environment they aren't used to fighting in. That's why most leviathans and aquatic monsters seem so awkward on land, they're out of their element
@@xenomorphoverlord I doubt that. The great sword suffered the most underwater. It was clear some weapons were way better underwater. It was a nice idea but nothing Id like to do again
I love underwater combat because it makes so much sense for a game like Monster Hunter to have it, following the monster & adapting to the situations they put you in it's just so immersive & doesn't matter if it will always feel more clunky than land combat, it won't be an inefficient use of resources for development time if it was used more effectively than in Tri, sure it's no easy task but it's definitely possible.
If it will always feel more clunky than land combat, then that sets a limit to how far they can refine it, giving them less reason to pursue its development in the future. It _definitely_ matters.
@@purpleemerald5299 yeah well I meant for the players that won't really matter much because the point of underwater combat isn't to be an equal to land combat, it's it's own kind of navigation & experience.
I love underwater combat because it added another dimension of play to Monster Hunter; the movement, to me, was graceful; and the mechanics taught me patience, to pay better attention to what I'm doing and what's going on around me, and to learn the monsters move sets both in and out of the water. It also helped me learn more about the range of the weapons I used.
All the problems you listed can't be solved if they don't try to, underwater combat is bad because we only have 1 example of it, take the clutch claw, it was really bad, but now we have the marionette spider, and everyone loved it, in an space of 1 gen, we've gone from one the hated mechanics in the series to a loved one. We could be fighting somnacanth or plesioth in an area where there's lakes divide in levels and see him jumping between them, mh3 underwater combat shouldn't be seen as the norm, and that can't be changed to something better and that improves on the monsters and maps. We have the base to underwater combat, but if we don't do anything with have it back, its not going to be improved. If continue getting world-like games and it doesn't have underwater combat, the game would feel incomplete.
I agree that underwater combat wouldn't be that great, mainly due to the fact that a lot of the monsters that came after Tri, even the amphibians and the more aquatic ones, wouldn't work logically. Tetranadon doesn't seem like he'd be capable of swimming underwater, he'd probably burrow in shallow muddy water to ambush prey or walk on the bottom of deeper bodies of water but that's about it. Mizutsune would probably be horrible at under water combat since his bubbles would just float upwards and he'd probably lose a ton of his bubblefoam just going into deep water, also his long claws seem like they're mainly for fishing on the surface. Somnacanth could work, she seems much more adapted for living underwater, idk how her sleep powder would work tho since everybody's gonna be holding their breath, unless they'll be focusing on making her use those clams or whatever more I don't see how she'd work, but even then they'll have to work in where she gets them from since we see her dive underwater to get them in Rise. Almudron also wouldn't work since he's not a swimmer, he just burrows in mud and uses a golden liquid he produces to dissolve rocks. Most of them feel more like animals that live close to water and probably require moisture to live, rather than living in water, and some of their abilities just don't work under water from a logical point of view. It's as you said, they'll have to dedicate a ton of resources to making a massive roster of new monsters and waste resources that could've been spent on polishing the rest of the game, kinda like what happened during the development of base World, where they spent a lot of their resources trying to get the game to run with Zorah, an incredibly boring hunt that most people either didn't care for or outright hated.
Regarding mirewalker I would like Waterwalker Lvl 1 - Nothing Lvl 2 - Negate the effects of shallow water (shin height) Lvl 3 - Make the effect of deep water (hip height) be the same as what shallow water would be were it not negated. Mind you this would rely on a return to the old slot system but keep the new skill system. Another bonus of this system would be that you could create a gem loadouts that you could apply to any armour set. Skill slot 1 = Gem A Skill slot 2 = Gem B Skill slot 3 = Gem C If you have an armour set with only 2 slots and you equip this gem load out you would have Gem A and Gem B, but with a set with 3 slots you would get all of them.
I think underwater should return because of how much the hardware has progressed since the wii. Part of the problem with underwater feeling clunky was the hardware limitations. Also i don't really agree with the whole "theyd have to make underwater from scratch" argument. They could very easily just take the underwater areas from 3 ultimate and update them to the new art style and gameplay. And if were being honest they really wouldnt have to rework many weapons. Sword and sheild would have to be re worked of course, but dual blades, lance, hammer, greatsword, hunting horn, gunlance, bow, light and heavy bowgun, long sword, switch axe, none of them would have to be reworked because they all already worked pretty well underwater. Insect glaive and charged blade would have to have new movesets made, but ultimately i think it would be worth it. Also i dont agree at all with underwater not being a big part of tri and three ultimate. Yea there aren't many underwater monsters, but there are more quests than just monster hunts. Also the story of both tri and three ultimate completely revolves around the idea of underwater combat. I think it would be easier to design underwater today being that they have hardware that works on multiple platforms as well. It should be noted that monster hunter tri had a big portion of its development time dedicated to re working it for a console it had never been on before. Monster hunter went from a psp series to now being developed for the wii because it was the most popular console at the time. And to my knowledge the monster hunter team had never worked with any other hardware than the playstation at that point. It could become a lot easier today being that the games are developed across multiple platforms today.
I can't say I agree with you. I do absolutely see the logic in your arguments. It's just...I had fun. I loved the change of pace between fighting on land and underwater and Lagiacrus to this day remains my favorite monster (with Jhen Moran and the original Alatreon in close 2nd and 3rd). I saw underwater combat as a chellenge to step out of my comfort zone and fight the monster on its own terms, rather than just a limitation of my movement. Depth perception has never been an issue for me, neither have the controls. The one negative memory I have is from sometimes unintentionally dodging up or down when I wanted to go back, but I view that as something that could be easily improved upon. Also I can't help but feel like a lot of your later points boil down to 'stick with the old stuff that works and play it safe, rather than implementing something completely new' which I also disagree with. So yeah, I would absolutely love to see underwater combat and environments make a return.
I personally think switch skills should be done away with in the next game and they simply focus on really getting the weapon balance right. However, I think UNDERWATER COMBAT presents an opportunity for some of them to come back. Think about it. How do you do a longsword Helmbreaker while underwater? It wouldn't really work. So, on land have the standard moveset, but underwater, be able to do a sacred sheathe instead. Lots of switch skills, while I think they wouldn't work outside of Rise on land, would be perfect for underwater. Surge Slash Combo for greatsword might be great underwater. Spiral slash for dual blades seems like it's practically made for underwater. Blast Dash for gunlance would be sick to have back underwater exclusive. While not a switch skill, (it totally should have been though) Energy Blade could replace SAED, since underwater you can't really slam the ground with an SAED. Insect Glaive couldn't really have the normal aerial combo underwater, so why not let it use kinsect slash instead? Like spiral slash on dual blades, it seems like it's practically made for it.
Loved the video and left a like, but just wanted to address something. You mentioned how being underwater limits you, puts you at a disadvantage, and how that’s a negative. I wholeheartedly disagree. To me it makes perfect sense that being underwater would put the monster at a huge advantage - you’re out of your element. You’ve entered their domain, of course you won’t be as agile as they’ll be when underwater, you’re fighting a giant sea serpent and you’re just a guy. They live underwater, we’re simply visiting.
Before finishing the video, I strongly believe that it should return. Considering things the devs have said in the past I'm certain it will return in 6, but only time will tell.
Monster hunter NEEDS underwater combat back. I dont know what new land-based mechanic they could add to keep the game fresh, but a much improved version of underwater combat would add a wide variety of new mechanics and cool monsters, and would make the game feel fresh, imo
You mentioned there's nothing new added to 3U in terms of underwater combat, but there actually is something. If you hold down the dodge button and either forward or backwards on the analog stick, you'll swim straight up/down (relative to your camera). On top of this, you can now dodge up or down, which really screwed me over when I played through Tri and was already used to 3U.
Tbh I actually rather like the Rampage It's cool and unique and I rather like playing them I would have liked if they had put them in Sunbreak in some way tbh, I mean it makes sense for them not to be as we're not in Kamura anymore But would have been interesting to see them expand on it more Heck I would want to fight some monsters in that style such as Lao
Adding water combat and then taking it away is painful. Even if its not good it should still be in the games. Seeing water and not being able to take a swim anymore is torture. Must return. The games have felt empty and soulless ever since the removal. I went back and played some 3U a few months ago. Its not great, annoying at times, dreadful at others but this feeling remains nonetheless. I love underwater combat. It adds so much to the world, so much immersion. There is no doubt it can be improved and be made great.
I actually agreed with it's removal in 4, due to their most cited reasoning being that was the focus on improving and mastering ground combat which was a worthwhile sacrifice at the time and world was a reinvention of the game mecanics, so I gave it a pass has well. That being said, I will be really dissapointed if 6 doesn't bring it back in any way, has a I feel that it is the perfect time for it.
I would like them to give it another shot. It felt better in 3U than in vanilla tri. I would've expected them to improve upon it further in 4U but they just scraped it entirely, which annoyed me a bit, because I really liked Lagiacrus.
i think that that they are going to bring underwater back in (maybe) the next MH, as for me well i dont know, havent experienced underwater combat yet so i need to play it first. anyways, i'll be watching this later while eating. i love long videos like this thanks!
If they ever bring back underwater combat, they should expand on it with a new way to hunt which is by ship like the sea beasts movie from Netflix where the new way of hunting are called Voyage hunts Hunters could have their own ship that they can customize from its weapons, sails, etc, then go out with their boat to hunt monsters like Royal Ludroth, Plesioth, Lagiacrus, and even Ceadeus in Sea Voyage Hunts There could also be sand Voyage hunts that can be a High rank thing where you can hunt monsters like Cephadrome, Nibelsnarf, Monoblos, and even Jhen Mohran Sky Voyage hunts can be a Expansion thing where you’d hunt monsters like Paolumu, Legiana, Rathalos, Bazelgeuse, Valstrax, and many more including Amatsu the next MH game that would ever have that sort of idea might as well be called Monster Hunter Voyage, while it’s expansion could be called MH Voyage Skyward
Monster Hunter Tri underwater combat is special. Nothing impacts gameplay like it did. That seemless transition of locamotion. It's not our native environment as a Hunter. We directly go in to fight on the monsters turf. It's a tug of war for the advantage where both the Monster and Hunter need to adapt depending on who has the control of a zone. You have an active objective to push the monster out of the water and back to land. That balance of power is really cool. The Developers at Capcom are more talented than ever before they can definitely bring back underwater combat and truly evolve it into something more than a gimmick. Flying Wyverns wish they could affect the fight like a Royal Ludroth could.
I started playing Monster Hunter back in 4U so I do not have a strong opinion towards a mechanic I never played. However, none of my friends who have played 3 Ultimate had anything positive to say regarding underwater combat. Great perspective shared throughout the video and I agree that the team should focus on what works
I have a lot to say about underwater as a Rise newcomer who has been working backwards, but to keep it short: Yes, I think underwater should come back and I disagree with you. What I think could be worth doing however is make another poll to see whether people still want underwater, to see whether people have changed their minds after the video or if people really are adamant about it. You could also make a poll whether people would want underwater vs half-water (vs no water?), because in the event underwater never comes back I think half-water would work great (it's something I've even thought about myself prior to this, when thinking of how they could bring back underwater focused monsters).
I recently got 3U and am playing it solo for the first time, which has given me a new perspective on underwater combat. Before I experienced underwater for myself, I used to really want it back, because it just makes so much sense for MH, and could potentially be made really great. Now... I still want it back. I find it really fun in 3U! But I think the way it's implemented should be changed. I used to think that the main problem with it was probably the camera controls being clunky without a 2nd joystick. But honestly, I don't find the 3DS controls that bad. I've adapted to them. What I think they should do however, is NOT make your movement tied to the camera. As it is now, you move in the direction the camera faces. But I think it could be much better if instead, your normal movement only moved horizontally, exactly like on land. And to move up and down, you have the shoulder buttons for ascending and descending. That way, you minimize issues of the camera not cooperating, or it just not being ideal. Like for example, probably my biggest complaint about underwater in 3U is that holding backwards moves you toward the camera, making you need to think backwards kind of, because if you have a tilted camera, going forward is on an upward/downward angle, and going backward is the opposite of that angle. Plus, it sometimes forces you to take the camera off the monster if you need to get away from it. Maybe they could keep the function of swimming with the camera in some form, but I think there really just needs to be dedicated ascend and descend buttons. The biggest issue I see with this is not having that many buttons on the controller. But maybe they could free up that extra space by going back to the old functions of the shoulder buttons. Like in GU on the switch, only L and R do anything. ZL and ZR don't really have a purpose. So R is one of your attack/guard buttons when your weapon is out, and is your run button when sheathed. Y is also the only way to sheathe, and to draw your weapon with your second draw attack requires pressing R+X+A. The new controls that World introduced are better, no doubt, but it's not like the old ones are bad at all. Once you adjust to them, they feel just as good, so I wouldn't be mad at all if they went back to them just to give us up and down buttons for underwater combat.
Tri has ZL and ZR buttons you can use to go down and up in underwater. It was probably removed by accident when they cut out the PS2 controls you could have in Tri
I'd like to see them make underwater exploration a thing just to.. test the waters?~ Jokes aside I don't think I'd be a bad idea to add underwater areas but without the combat part. That way the developers can get feedback from the community about how they felt about the movement and mechanics without diving too deep into it and if it's well received then adding the combat and monsters in a later game or expansion. Ya know?
Glad you made a shallow water segment, it is a compromise that could work as a replacement for underwater combat I said "glad you talked about shallow water" because when you started talking about the negatives, your tone considerably shifted to an aggressive one that was unusual to hear from you after your entire catalog of videos After this video i came to more Conclusions than before: Underwater combat should return with many changes because verticality may went to far... People can say whatever they want but verticality and orizzontal movement in rise went way to far, i don't like it's flashy combat sistem at all, it isn't the same series anymore basically Underwater combat should return for just one entry with a major focus only to later use shallow water to momentarily replace it No matter how you counter this part, potential for new water monsters is big... Especially considering that out of all the monsters in the series, around one third of them are fire monsters (and sunbreak is adding even more) Also i need to see a mh6 trailer as soon as possible just to see what to expect from it in regards of underwater, the wait is killing me and this video is killing my hopes for underwater combat returning Yes shallow water would be enough but it would be a shame... Capcom can make one of the first good water combat systems, breaking this standard of bad water levels in gaming
I didn’t know that OG MHTri’s caves were dark… which actually could be implemented underwater, imagine hunting a Namielle in the water and then it suddenly lets out a flash of lightning that obscures your vision before descending into the dark abyss below, before racing towards you and unleashing a powerful electrical discharge This is the kinda thing that makes me hope for underwater combat in the next MH game
I think for me especially considering Tri was my first experience with MH, I will always want underwater areas to be a part of the hunting experience. I think even just having explorable spaces with water and caves/geysers etc as well as coastal sandbars or swampy jungles allows for the worlds we inhabit in the MH universe to feel so much more lively and authentic. You could have hidden air pockets and secret beaches inside a vast cave system, fog-laden swamps eerily beckoning you into the mist. After 3 Ultimate, playing in 4 or Gen and going to a map like the Jungle or Deserted Island and not being able to swim felt so agonizingly heartbreaking. I would even be fine with limited combat options/spear fishing small monsters like Sharqs and other fish. I think the versatility of having partially or fully submerged areas on a map on its own is a huge reason why it should at least be seriously considered as an addition to a new MH game. Monsters like Tetsucabura or Tetranadon could lie in wait and pounce at hunters like we’ve seen them do with small monsters in various cutscenes in the series. We could have an octopus monster creating smoke screens to obscure vision and create sneak attacks, crocodile monsters like Lagiacrus getting a death roll pin attack. There are so many crazy interesting and incredible fish species in our ecosystem and it seems a shame to co-opt them for a terrestrial creature. I don’t mind the angle of using a semi submerged combat system ala Jyuratodus, but I think it should work in concert with a system that allows for fully submerged gameplay. You could go the Rage Gaming route and have hunters fall to the sea bed and hunt creatures as they attack from above and the sides, or utilize a new movement mechanic like a wire bug to move through the water. On that note I think it could be fair to speculate that hunters could simply just move as quickly as on land in the water, for Tri/3U the movement slowed down, but as we know that wasn’t as well received, I can imagine the dev teams would take that into account and streamline the combat experience, moving it in line with the terrestrial combat that makes the series so fun. Whose to say that underwater combat has to be this massive departure from the gameplay we know and love - it should serve to deepen the game through the options it provides in area traversal, exploration, and the monster roster opportunities it could create. If a monster is difficult to target or hit, have an item or trap that serves to lure it/immobilize it. Monsters like Azure Rathalos and Legiana can be particularly annoying in the air and I would argue fighting them while they’re flying everywhere can be tedious and frustrating, that’s where things like bounce bombs and flash pods come into play, to even the playing field and regain control. The same could be said for underwater combat. And even beyond all that it would allow for the return of one of the most beloved and requested flagships in Lagiacrus.
I have a weird opinion on this topic; I want underwater combat, but I want a "low friction" concept that IMO would be better than the Jyuratodus method. Let me explain my pitch: *I want hunters to be able to walk on the seabed as if they're on land.* _(eg. you get a device that releases a coating of mizu bubblefoam to explain it)_ This would be active only when your weapon is drawn, so while sheathed, you can swim in 3D like you'd expect. When you draw your weapon, controls revert to as if you were grounded, complete with you falling and able to do aerial attacks, with no animation changes except new VFX to reflect you being underwater, and perhaps some _slightly_ slowed animations to produce the underwater feel. This would integrate "underwater combat" into the main gameplay loop. Instead of Capcom having to design full 3D fights, underwater monsters could be designed like flying monsters, with you fighting them on the seabed and them floating just over it. It'd have enough differences to feel distinct, without so many that the feature is unreasonable to implement or feels bad to play with, because it _is_ essentially land combat with small changes, not much different from fighting Amatsu. People might complain this loses some of the appeal of 3rd gen, but IMO the uniqueness tradeoff is worth it. Besides the new ecology/atmosphere variety which is the main reason I want it, I do think you underestimate how hunters' inability to swim is limiting Capcom's world design in 5th gen.
I can see your points and the problems Gen 3 showed underwater. But that is a bit of a problem more so on the engine and the hardware the game played on. And i whole heartenly disagree with the notion that underwater exploration and combat should be fully axed from the games. Not only is it opening up new monster types, fully aquatic like sharks, cephalopods and the like, but also completely different level designs and mission designs. And the main problem Tri and 3U had with their movement isn't even a hinderance on todays hardware and software. I want to highlight three games here: The Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion, Assassins Creed 4 Black Flag and ABZÛ Oblivion let you fight underwater. It took some mechanics away, like shooting a bow and long ranged spells, but you were still able to go in there and fight well with not difference in movement Black Flag has about 10 ship wrecks you can visit via a giant dive bell the movement is a bit slugisher than your movement on land but it is still fair, you can get around every obsticale quite easily and your movement is free from the camera. And then there is ABZÛ. It is built around water movement and exploration and it is amazing. I love that ocean game to bits. The movement is fluid, you have special abilties, the animals in the water feel good it is just amazing And like in Black Flag you can decide how to move freely without the camera. Granted that was thanks to holding down a button to swim forward and using either the control stick or WASD for controlling your direction, but that can be easily added for a game like Monster Hunter. Instead of the sprint you swim at a steady pace and you use the regular movement to control your direction. It would change a bit of the movement in the hunt, but that could be implemented quite well. So no Underwater exploration should not be completely cut from the game. Only going the save route lets us only play the same game with a new coat of paint. Pokémon is a good bad example of that. taking risks should be welcomed here and there. And the giant leviathans like Lagiacrus would work rather poorly in a swamp like Jyratodus. Lagiacrus is by far the largest of the water dwelling Levithans. The only other monster in this class in that size range is Agnaktor. Lagiacrus is around twice the size of Jyratodus and Royal Ludroth and is a primarely marine Leviathan class monster. Fighting him in a knee deep tide pool would feel like a ripoff. And about the standard attacks for the Leviathans, that part is by far not unique to them. Capcom takes this "shortcut" with almost all of their more wildly used monster skeletons. I take World/Iceborne as my example here. Take a look at Pukei Pukei, Rathalos, Rathian, Paolumo and Yian Garuga. They have quite a few animations that are just copy and paste from skeleton to skeleton. That makes sense, similar body plan leads to similar movements and attacks. Even some Elder Dragons have that. Kushala, Velkana, Teostra and Lunastra all have a similar bodyplan to each other. And Namielle and Vaal Hazak share their skeleton. This wouldn't be too much of a divergence from their usual work. Remember they had to build World from scratch, a huge risk upending the classic style completely. And yet it paid off better than any other game in Capcom's history
Something I've thought about is having hunts still fight under water, but the hunters have a weighted belt that keeps them at the sea floor and the monsters swim around you and fight you. But to give the hunters a bit of mobility to fight the monster's mobility, the hunter can jump at the monster. Jumping would also be the mechanic of the game so it would be incorporated in the main game and the hunters moveset would only need some minor tweeks or simply slowing down the attack animations
I definitely agree with your suggestions. Make arenas with more gimmicks and aspects that monsters can make of. Maybe a hunt with a leviathan can start on dry land, but it'll retreat to water zones after some fighting time. The leviathans could then make use of swimming and skating to attack faster, and maybe make use of features like geysers or waterfalls. We already saw this a lot in world, where monsters had special additional mechanics tied to their lairs, like TziTzi or Diablos. Obviously, coding these gimmicks in took a lot of effort to only improve one or two fights, but it probably didnt take as much time as a whole gamemode.
Yes. Everyone is asking for Lagiacrus back and he is absolute dogshit in GU for the most part. He NEEDS water combat. Same with other monsters. Everyone says the controls were bad but remember, Tri released in 2009/2010, and 3U in 2011/2013. A time/generation where all the controls were still clunky as hell. 4U and then GU were a bit better. Remember what it was like before World? World onward is where things improved immensely. The game engines can make water combat AND movement leagues better and can open up so many possibilities for other combat and movement options outside of water. If there was ever a time for water combat to return, it's the next game and they will make it incredible
23:14 I was not expecting to see just... a normal shark, lol Something that didn't hit me is that they have to make new animations for all underwater moves. Just that alone is a large time cost, and if they wanted to add a new move they'd need to animate it twice for land and water. Then how would IG's vault work? There are no aerial attacks under water so that could be a mechanical problem for IG. Not to mention all of the new moves like perfect rush, TCS, and savage axe that would need to also get water animations Even with this cost I do hope it makes a return eventually. I'd like to see Somnacanth, Namielle, and Jyuratodus get underwater versions since not many 5th gen monsters would be capable of swimming. It would be a mechanic that would add a lot of depth to the series
Maybe we could have "underwater" combat in form of utilizing the the way shallow water works but instead you stay near the top of deeper water almost like how Olympic swimmers spend most of the time on the top or near it and the monsters would fallow suit with this you could have all of the pros of land combat have the unique water monsters and their movements and eliminate the issues of using your camera to change your directional movements and their could be an "set infinite" item like your kuni or sharp stones in rise that allow you to swim faster and have normally movements it'd just be a case of not using them would be like having infinite bubble blight where moving or attacking will drift you in the direction you face
Even if it's a gigantic undertaking to create functional maps, monsters, movement and weapon animations, I still think underwater combat deserves at least a second chance. With the current state of the technology plus the many years of experience the devs have gained after so many games, it would be even more of a waste to just let the concept drown after only one attempt.
I like how you put it. It's too much of a waste to NOT at least try again. 2 whole weapons never got a chance with it. Tons of monsters would fit perfectly in it. Without it, some monsters might never even have a chance to come back. It works way too well with Monster Hunter's overall theme of environments and functional ecosystems. I'd honestly be fine if some things were sacrificed to bring it back. For example, reuse the slinger (not the claw, although I personally like it) as the game's "thing" and expand on it a bit. Slinger bursts in weapon movesets were super interesting and underrated in Iceborne. They gave certain weapons like longsword the ability to change direction and extend combos. Buff slinger damage a bit, add some new types of ammo, and incorporate bursts into more weapon combos and I'd say that's enough for it to be the central mechanic again. In fact, borrow off of a lot of World's mechanics. I know it's "cool" to hate on World and Iceborne, but the sales numbers don't lie. It was an amazing game that people loved, and many are hoping for some kind of sequel. I say basing a lot of the game off of World's mechanics could save them enough time and resources to invest in improved and polished underwater combat. Two birds with one stone. A sort of sequel to World, and Underwater combat.
Sekiro is the only game that I've seen with good underwater combat and mobility, and it therefore added to the experience I think mh deserves a second chance considering that it is possible to make that system work
I think it's gonna have to come back for one simple reason, it'll open up space for brand new monsters that could potentially be very unique. Even now I feel like a lot of the monsters that are new are starting to feel kinda same-y
Historically, I wasn't a big fan of underwater, but I had an idea combining it with something I'm also not a big fan of, wirebugs. Being able to zip around, with a scooter thingy or something, but only underwater would make the three-dimensionality more explored and it would become a fusion of both. It'd also differentiate the movesets perhaps. I don't know if it would work, but I like the idea.
I completely agree with you and I'm glad someone said it because I keep seeing people start to try to defend underwater combat. I started the series with 3U back when it released and I remember I went to great lengths every time to try to force the water monsters onto land to fight however I could. I always dreaded underwater combat; it was just miserable to play and added very little to the game. I honestly think most of the people who say they want it back just never actually played Tri or 3U.
This is why the wire bug is one of the most greatest addition to the monster hunter games and why it should be brought back in MH6. It gives a reasonable answer for a hunter to walk on the surface of the water and gives the leviathans their full moveset.
You don't have to point the camera away from the monster to move away. Just like on land you just have to move towards the camera. The depth perception was a major problem for 3U. If they had made it for the WiiU first then they could have kept Tri's HD graphics which is why tri didn't have that problem.
Hope you enjoyed this video! Curious as to what you all think about underwater combat. Remember to like and subscribe!
www.patreon.com/HeavyWings
Your best work yet! 👌👍
I disagree but If Capcom won't try to remake the Tri style of Underwater Combat, how about this, czcams.com/video/ndR1xPetOsw/video.html from Ragegamingvideos where he redoes Underwater Combat in a interesting way?
This is a well put video. I can refute a lot of what you said but your points are thought out and presented well.
The main thing about underwater to me is the immersion it brings. It so cool that you are able to pursue those big leviathan in the water so seemless
Exactly
and the environment, the story that the stuff hidden under the water told without saying a word, that did it for me, it just looked stunning
And fighting them in their habitat... chills
exactly. idk why some people are so focused on the meta gaming aspect of monster hunter (you have people complaining about turf wars for the love of god).
I honestly couldn't care less if underwater is clunky, that's sort of the point. it's not your domain. you can add in-game mechanics like gear sets to counter some of the disadvantages, etc. You can absolutely get creative with it. some people dont care about immersion at all in MH, and just wanna see big damage numbers and create all kinds of meta builds with 20+ skills on an equipment set.
i hope they dial it down by a lot tbh. MH was fun when they kept things simple
@@ashfields9273 People claim that immersion is why MHWorld is the best, or Monster Hunter Dos for it's seasons. But this is why MH3 is the most immersive. No artificial restrictions in where you can go.
Imagine if GTA6 removed swimming, boats, submarines, carriers, and the entire coastline, just cause some people thought it was clunky. That's ridiculous.
Now imagine if they did so while 77% of the playerbase wanted it in, and making certain missions take place on remote islands, with objectives that enter the water, which you can't follow. Outrageous honestly.
GTA gives players the freedom to enter water for _fun. Despite it being a waste in that game._ MH should give players the freedom to enter water, *_because that's what hunters do._* Limited development resources are an invalid excuse here. Monster Hunter is Capcom's best selling franchise, and TONS of resources were devoted to making World more immersive, _without any new combat dimensions to show for it._ Guess the boils on Vaal Hazak's ass were too enthralling.
A cool new addition would be Nakarkos underwater. It's been hinted at being aquatic before so it may be interesting to see the bone squid in a different environment.
a third phase at 20% health where the bone graveyard falls through into a deep underwater cavern. narkarkos's shell can now be broken, relealing the pulsing glow of the cuttlefish skin. it is fast, and uses its dragon cannon in more frequency.
I agree, but not necessarily as a "fight"... my headcanon is that Nakarkos wears the bone armour on land but not underwater; as the bones would limit it's maneuverability, so if you found it underwater it'd be boneless
but my idea isn't to fight a boneless Nakarkos underwater; my idea is to show the ecology between Nakarkos and Ceadeus... you are tasked with protecting a pod of juvenile Ceadeus (which would be about the size of an Orca) from various underwater predators, first Royal Ludroths, a Gobul, a Lagiacrus and then finally a Nakarkos... but the Nakarkos cannot be slain, as it is too strong for you to handle at the moment and starts massacring the young Ceadeus, with you powerless to stop it... but just as the final juvenile Ceadeus is about to be killed; an adult Ceadeus comes from the depths and dukes it out with the Nakarkos, with the Ceadeus being victorious and the Nakarkos forced to flee
This quest would show you why the Guild wants to protect/monitor the Ceadeus, while they are dangerous in certain circumstances; Nakarkos are the greater threat by far and so by helping the young Ceadeus mature, they'll be able to keep the Nakarkos in check, and hopefully by protecting the carves from the Nakarkos; these Ceadeus might become more passive around hunters
sure giant whale with 2 horns or giant volcanic bipedal dragon that has volcanic eruption instead of wings are cool af but seeing giant kraken like monster covered in bones with circular mouth filled with teeth underwater would be scary
Nakarkos in GU G Rank is perfect as is imo.
@@HeavyWings yeah, but what I was imagining was that we could see one in the open ocean, in it's natural habitat, competing with Ceadeus for dominion over the ocean...
I always thought it'd be cool for there to be "Observation Quests", which would be non-hunting quests that allow you to observe monsters living their lives, maybe doing so unlocks extra info in the Hunter's Notes, and even a special layered armour set...
these could range from watching a Rathalos/Rathian kill an Aptonoth and then you could follow it to it's nest where it'll be feeding it's young, with a baby Silver Rathalos among their ranks
to something extreme, like wandering around the Sacred Land and getting a brief glimpse into the life of an Alatreon, watching it's elemental energy shift the lava lakes of the Sacred Land into obsidian rock almost instantly
These quests would give their own unique rewards (like layered armour, or special armour decorations or even something akin to the weapon talismans from Iceborne) and could give great insights into the monster's lives when they are not trying to tear us to shreds...
Honestly that transition from land to sea came with a sensation that you were entering a realm where the monster held the advantage, bringing with it a greater sense of danger, made mastery of undersea battles all the more satisfying.
I remember seeing how Flooded Forest looked in Rise and, never having fought the monster granted, I thought "y'know, a terrestrial Gobul could actually work in a muddy place like this, it could hide in the shallow water still, and could catch us by surprise by lurking just below the surface. Imagine it sticking its bulb out from the water while we're on land, that'd be cool." I too did not know about this 3U version of Gobul before this video and omg when I tell you seeing the exact bulb attack on land that I had in my head already existed I was SHOOK. Kinda surprising we didn't get Gobul in Rise considering that, here's hoping next game.
3U was my first and STILL to this day only MH game ive completed.
Im shocked to this revelation. No underwater ever since then . and gobul, one of my favorite leviathans…. never the same 😂 gobul feels so natural in mh3u.
Funnily enough the relic records in the flooded forest do reference a giant fish so...
sounds like another Nibelsnarf, but for swamps
the best part of gobul for me its sucking player into its mouth, even niblesnarf cant suck player with its powerfull vacum stomach on land. without it gobul kinda not scary at battle, maybe thats why it does not appear on rise.
Plesioth is iconic for being difficult and fair.
**reality-bending telekinetic powers intensify**
Disagree on the fair part. This dude is a meme for broken hitboxes and is the poster boy for the most ridicule I've seen in the community. Funnily enough his fight was literally fixed in his 3u return, but since his FU fight was so egregious people STILL ridicule him for that🤣🤣
Honest to god he's not even that bad.
@@WisdomAkpan211 I think what is said is supposed to be sarcasm, I hope.
@@marcusaaronliaogo9158 It wasn’t, as his comment here shows. And I agree with him.
It is really interesting to see evolutions, retrospectives, and other stuff from earlier games as a rise newcomer. Thank you for making these videos, I love them.
@@user-er1bm8uz9e hard because artificial difficulty
On one hand underwater Nakarkos
On the other hand we saw the results of a year of dev time in Zorah Magdaros
On a personal note I don't want the Deserted Island and Lagiacrus to return without underwater
Yeah, Lagi is basically just long ludroth out of the water. Not nearly as cool.
Either underwater combat and lagi or no lagi. He deserves to shine
Man, this video makes me want to be a fly in the wall at Capcom and find out what their internal stance is on Underwater Combat is, specifically how hard their, "No, we aren't doing that again," is. My friend who really got me into Monster Hunter actually started with Tri on the Wii, and mains Lance to this day- so He's particularly fond of the mechanic. He also however, admits that's its most likely never going to return. Nothings really going to change the fact that Developing Underwater Combat is basically making a 2nd Game, and require the resources and time to do so. To the point most likely the best situation for getting Underwater Combat again will be, "Here's the New Monster Hunter game... It's literally the previous one but it now has Underwater Combat now and nothing else new."
We know at the very least Capcom isn't completely against the mechanic, as the book Dive into Monster Hunter World revealed World initially planned underwater combat but ended up scrapping it (maybe we would've gotten it if they hadn't focused an entire year on Zorah Magdaros, yes, they spent the first year of development on that, so maybe water combat isn't seen as that big an investment anymore lmao)
Monster hunter is Capcom's biggest IP that has generated nearly 50 million copies with 5th gen sales alone. They probably have all the resources to try whatever they want. What it comes down to is development time and whether or not they're actually willing, not whether they're able to
Underwater combat is a generally disliked mechanic in most games. Sekiro is the only game where it didn't feel like a hindrance due to the fact that you swam extremely fast and could dash to cover massive distance
I personally want them to retry water combat and give us levels of mobility like we had in Sekiro. I also personally like underwater in games because unlike even horror games, exploring deep underwater sections in games (especially with the fear that there is something lingering beneath) actually terrifies me and excites me. Subnautica is such a game that really made me realize my fear for the depths of the ocean. I'm sure monster hunter could capture this if they were to make deep sections of underwater like a fully fledged sea area with monsters hidden in them and many secrets waiting to be found!
That's just my take tho
@@WisdomAkpan211 The reason sekiro is easy to implement is because there is only 1 weapon type.
@@marcusaaronliaogo9158 I think you missed my point, Marcus. I was specifically referring to the *mobility* of swimming around and dashing. Just general movement that's done outside of combat for traversal. During combat, I agree they'd have to think long and hard about how they would design the 14 weapons to play out underwater: stuff like attack speed, underwater combos, whether or not there should be s since underwater combat in 3rd gen lacked this. There would be a lot to consider. Ultimately, this is where the risk lies. If they don't nail the underwater combat then it's going to pull the game experience down. This is why I said that developing something that's very intricate and nuanced requires time to think and play test, which increases development time. Now, what it comes down to is whether Capcom is willing to go out of their way to do this, not whether they're able to. They have generated a lot of money that they can probably hire as many employees as they want to focus on this part of the game. I just personally want them to give underwater another shot
id buy world again under those conditions
I hated it while playing through it on the 3ds. Recently, I started to emulate it on my PC while using a proper Xbox controller... And I really appreciated it much more this time around. My main gripe with it was that it was clunky because of the touchscreen/ dpad camera control, but using a proper analogue stick almost instantly erased most of my complaints about underwater combat.
I really want to see it again. I always felt really cool when the monster would flee and I'd be like "oh no you don't!" And this puny ass human would dive after and chase a giant thunder crocodile IN THE WATER. I felt like the coolest, ballsiest mf-er in the land.
Yeah I mentioned the 3ds camera controls as an issue, but I did make a point to say that CC was generally fine on the Wii U where you have 2 sticks.
@@HeavyWings Yeah I remember you saying that about the Wii U, and you made a lot of good points in the video about why it shouldn't come back...
But, as a selfish hope, I still wish that they will try it again.
Kinda reminds me of the super Mario 64 remake for DS.
The game too needed an analogue stick.
I think it would be really interesting to see insect glaive as a propeller underwater
Submarine gameplay lmfao 😭
That's what I was thinking lol. Would be awesome😂😂
@@TspriggZ Renoplos set for the proper big daddy experiance.
I mean I get the idea that they need time to create whole new movesets, but we're already getting oversaturated with attacks to the point they had to give us a crappy version of DMC's weapon switching mechanic melded with style switching just to be able to use them all. You could easily bring the switch movesets as a way to bolster the underwater's moveset. It definitely shows that CC is starting to run out of options in that giving us more options that are all available to us at easily at once. The core movesets are there, unless they pull a world or a tri, unless they add nothing, they aren't being hurt. They certainly aren't afraid to add a large amount of attacks that a large amount of people aren't going to pay attention to.
Underwater combat's greatest strength is diversity. It changes things up, in gameplay, in monster design and ecology. In my eyes it needs to come back for the latter two being more than a good enough reason. Giving monsters like Lagi their full movesets outside of water just feels cheap, it'd be like making Rathian the only Rath in a game. And it takes away from the ecological element of seeing monsters in their element. Watching them in their environment, instead of waddling like Jyra. Which is more comical than anything.
Putting in a lot of effort into underwater in one game lays the foundation, once that foundation is set, just like the ground based combat, it can built off of just as easily or re-used just as a easily. Sieges are more asset wasting than that, yet there a groups of people that love them. A lot of work, for a smaller amount of the game can really add to the game. It's also building on that overall loop of gameplay without completely shuffling the core up, for example, the wirebug or speed of rise, which many people were not fans of. Hell imagine the work on World with it's ecological elements, be it turf wars, or monster interactions, or environments, the size of the maps, lots of changes that people could of decided not to like. But Capcom took a risk that changed the DNA of monster hunter in a lot of ways, and it payed off. It can pay here as well in the same ways.
bro some weapon moves straight up do not work underwater. like the helmsplitter. Also are you implying rise as "bad"?
Wdym dude? The DMC charge blade was really great, what are you on about?
I'm a person who wants underwater to come back but I admit I have to agree with everything you said. Underwater as a mechanic would be risky to bring back unless it was a main part of the game like Subnautica.
EDIT: I did not see that Jyratodus Plot Twist coming... (my least favorite monster lol)
Yeah the workload to implement it is just too much.
So I’ve seen the video now and I’ve got some thoughts. I understand the points you made but I’m not sure that I agree.
Without getting into my “ideal” monster hunter game, I do have some ideas that I think will likely be implemented in the next game given the trend in the series.
3 had underwater. 4 added verticality. World has a focus on a new living world with lots going on in the maps. Rise added the wirebugs which were essentially magic methods of traversal
I don’t think we’re getting the clutch claw or wirebugs back, instead I think we’ll get a basic grappling hook that has limited combat use. It will primarily exist for exploration/traversal.
But the main change will be an “open” world. Maybe not to botw extent, but making all the different maps into one giant one might make sense to especially if it’s specifically a follow up to world. Maybe not set in the new world but just in terms of theming.
You talk about how most of the games focus on adding onto what was already there, and how they should stick to that rather than essentially adding a new game mode. My thing with that is what else would they add to combat?
Tbh I don’t think adding more to the main combat system is necessary, and at some point it would just become overwhelming.
Adding underwater, plus the grappling hook and potentially a hang glider (which already kinda exists in world it’s just limited) would allow you to explore nearly everywhere.
I’m not sure if this is the “right” way for the series to go, but given the past few games adding more dimension to the world in general, I think it would make pretty decent sense.
Also you talk about time and resources here which I kind of disagree with. Primarily because of how much of an advancement they were able to make with world, I kind of assume they’ve grown their studio tremendously, so I think they’d have more resources available.
Well, this comment has aged quite well from what we're seeing in Wilds, lol.
Underwater is still up in the air (my guess is probably not, they're probably putting all the work into the huge world), but you guessed gliding which seems to be incorporated into the mount, and it looks like we might be getting the slinger back too, which originally had a grappling hook function with the wedge beetles that could possibly be returning.
Four words.
Lagiacrus underwater turfs wars.
If that's not cool enough on its own to bring back underwater elements then what are we even doing with our lives?
LAGIACRUS vs MIZUTSUNE vs ALMUDRON
I just dream about a MH game mainly fochus on the sea. Like, sea monster hunters. Navigate a ship, use harpoons and follow up the monster using jetski-like mounts and other stuff to make the hunting on the water faster and more fluid.
Its a bit of a stretch because you also need to adapt the humungous weapons of MH to that concept, but the idea is just so cool.
Before even watching the video i say yes
Same. They can do it better.
We all did
Before watching it I say no but you do you
Same
Preach good buddy
yes i think it should return people say underwater combat was clunky but that was part of the mechanic you as a human was out of your element same as when a underwater monster was on land it was limited and clunky in way with its move set Glad to see you are back again with another video i hope you are healthy and eating well as always i love your videos😂🤣
Thank you!
The Wiis controls were not ideal for underwater cont.
I think a good way to satisfy the people that want under water back would be making a smaller spin off game with less/new weapons that is at least 70% underwater
I've never Experienced under water Combat before and I haven' t really thought much about this "spin off game idea" conseguence's to the franchise but i think it would be cool to basically "become" like under water monster with a Little things to do above water and a lot under
A "Hunter Diver" of sorts, perhaps? That could be interesting and also explore the underwater world of monster hunter more.
You could also just play the old games, they can all be emulated relatively decently, and Tri is soon going to get a working online private server so most of its content will be accessible again.
I personally would rather have Underwater over Super Skills like Arts or Wire Skills, or annoyingly mandatory gimmick like Clutch Claw
The thing with Underwater, its not really a gimmick its a enviroment change, the only problem really is to make equally huge amount of Water fight monsters as there is Land fight monsters
But its WAY easier to balance than Arts and Wire Skills who make the pacing of fights to go either too fast or too slow, but its not forcefull like Clutch Claw who only give you negatives on top of negatives
Bro you might ascwell make a different game.
"But its WAY easier to balance than Arts and Wire Skills"
I wouldn't be so sure. Depth perception is a significant issue in an action game, especially in one with as heavy action commitment as Monster Hunter, and it's one that affects shorter weapons much more significantly than the longer ones, and the only way to 'fix' it is to make all fights take place on, or very close to the sea/lake/w/e floor, at which point you just have ground combat with extra steps.
Too clunky thank god they got rid of it
@@val7885 Yeah i do aggre the Smaller weapons get treated unfairly
Then we have Switcaxe and Lance who somehow are really fast
Gunlance was a joke as allways since Gen 2 Game
But idk, i feel like its easier giving new moveset to underwater fight to make every weapon feel equal or stronger compared to land compared to how Capcom seems to not knowing how to make usefull Arts and Wire Skills but having stupidly powerfull moveset like Valor Longsword or just downright broken ones at the cost of base moveset being treated like garbage like Switchaxes
Or you get nothing at all like Gunlances, Insect Glaives, Hunting Horn, and Chargeblade
I think it really should. Just imagine the possibilities from the return of monsters like Abyssal Lagiacrus, Gobul, and Ceadeus to the addition of new ones. They could even add underwater mechanics to monsters like Zamtrios which came after underwater combat.
Thank you so much for this video I'd didn't think you would actually make it. Here's a comment for the algorithm.
And oh everyone watching this video remember to give the video a like I genuinely love this channel and I hope heavy wings stays motivated to make more videos.
typing as i watch but the answers yes,
at first i thought walking on the sea floor and having them "swim" above you might work as an inbetween, but then narwa and ibushi fought like that and they were awful.
i only ever played tri with the classic controller on a decent tv screen, using mostly greatsword and longsword, had 0 issues with it,
i can only imagine how it was on 3ds with a tiny little screen and no proper sticks.
especially if we stick with world/iceborne's focus on ecology, water environments would feel like natural parts of the ecosystem.
quality of life and mobility would help a lot underwater, it would never be 1:1 with what it was, it'd likely be way better.
resource wise yes it'd be a lot, but as we saw with the non flat environemnt of world and their initial attempts to get leviathan's working their they are ambitious.
world alone was capcoms biggest single game, bigger than any resident evil, any street fighter any marvel v capcom, and rise, sunbreak and iceborne on top of that make up over half of all monster hunter sales in history, it's a behemoth of a franchise now, one they want to keep pushing.
Piscine wyvern's are pretty crap, and amphibians lack any underwater fighting, adding underwater would help flesh them out/their movesets.
the sink into ground swim is honestly worse to me as it just means you can't hit the legs and it looks very silly.
as for lagi, i'd rather he stay gone than have no underwater, he's one of the best monsters but without underwater he's no threat.
Well, I've played on a New 2DS XL, and it was pretty alright from what I remember. The best description would be "sufficiently functional".
While under water combat certainly took up a lot of resources, Tri was a very experimental game with every monster either being new or redesigned and with a new weapon of its own, no reused maps, a whole new monster skeleton and other features like dynamic lighting; plus I think it’s a bit of an exaggeration to say every weapon needs a new move set for underwater, the move sets are more or less identical to the surface version with some minor tweaks and as someone who started with tri, it wasn’t that hard to get to grips with. All that combined with using a different console from a different manufacturer that’s also under powered and I think it’s understandable why the game is light on content. Even despite that though, the immersion and beauty of the underwater environments was unmatched, probably until world came out and I can only dream of what they’d be able to accomplish with modern tech.
Underwater combat making Plesioth less frustrating is an absolute win for me so i really want UC to come back with new aquatic monsters not just for Lagia
Id like to point to one thing that always has been in all monster hunter games: Sand!
In mh sand has alwasys been a sort of 'solid ocean' - by this I mean many sand monsters can move under the surface freely and attack from below (eg.diablos, nibelsnarf). Jhen mohran is basically a whale and humans are shown to travel on deserts using sail powered sand ships. Im not sure what my point is, I just thought the way sand is like water in mh would be relevant to your idea of worldlike mud / rise water areas.
So you're saying Nibelsnarf is the actual blueprint?
@@HeavyWings Always has been
@@HeavyWings its actually way before that (probably) :
Cephadrome
No risk, no gain
Definitely should come back.
With better controls and monsters with more complex move sets, it would be very cool and immersive. In addition to having an awesome aesthetic that cannot be replicated in any other way
Imagine if we got an underwater only map with only the camps at the surface or in underwater caves with air bubbles.
WE DID. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CORAL HIGHLANDS.
@@kingofflames738 Imagine if they made a fun game instead of that?
I thought you were gonna mention Nakarkos when you mentioned new monsters underwater. I didn't think about till you mentioned squids, he does have the swimmimg phase in gen that kinda sucks.
I’m just gonna say, as a newcomer to 3U with no other context of the series, Plesioth was one of my favorite fights in the entire game, and might be in the series now. It felt like it fit so well, and was arguably more fun in the water than on land, where being able to hit it is incredibly limited. It was just a really cool fight because of how well it worked. I cant imagine which fights now might be improved because of underwater combat, specifically Jyratodus.
As fair as this video is with swimming, I can't say I appreciate how dismissive you were to the clutch claw, especially when the discourse around it is so muddy from the lack of distinction whether people refer to the entire claw and all the actions it provided or if they're referring to just tenderizing (which seems like the root of most people's distaste). Though maybe that'd make good video material: a dive/review of other tertiary mechanics like this, giving them fair looks and what they did right and wrong for the series
For me its the simple fact that we know creatures exist in the water, and as a hunter, I must hunt where the creatures are
34:15
i should point out, that out of those 18 monsters in mh3, only 3 are returning (rathian, rathalos and diablos)
so yes, less monsters than ever, but the largest percentage of new entry out of the total game roaster by far
YES PLEASE BRING OUR GOBUL BACK
Mainline series has not created a single new leviathans since Tri (p3rd and 3u are done mostly by portable Game iirc) so that speaks for them how they handle Leviathans and underwater combat as whole
To be fair, they might have tried in World but were perhaps unable to. But yeah.
Though there is separation and Portable titles in capcoms eyes fall under spinoff, they still categorise it as mainline too. It's a spinoff within mainline.
Mitzusune and Somnacanth are leviathans
@@nidohime6233 i refer to mainline as the numbered/home console releases.
I love the hate he has towards Jyuratodus, it is really funny how he edits his own voice to reflect the disgust he has towards the brother of the Hot fish that white Fatalis eats with SALSA.
Edit: But who would think the mudfish would be the future of water combat?
Yes, yes it should. Besides, they're already selling cosmetic stuff now, they could sell a lot more of it with underwater theme
My two cents is Tri Underwater Fighting at the time wasn't the worst but definitely needed improvement and if Capcom focused on making fighting underwater as smooth as what they did with climbing the future of underwater battles could be epic.
Personally I think underwater combat should return because it has so much potential with new maps and monsters! And the combat is supposed to be somewhat clunky as you are out of your element in the water, it's meant to be more challenging. Nice video nonetheless!
This video is going to be incredible, I almost commented on your last video asking about more long-form content but didnt want to be greedy. Thanks Wings!
Personally i wish it would come back.
I feel like there is a way to bring it back in a limited way. For example only using certain weapons underwater. They could add special customization to bowguns and those weapons to allow more fluid underwater combat. If they introduce some device or something like wire bugs but underwater if could make it interesting. It could bring back old monsters as well as add new ones. Maybe they can have 1 completely submerged area underwater and maps that change with season. You could have one new map like the flooded forest where in a quest could be dry season and another flooded. It could add to that map and have different monsters. This way it does not fully use a lot of resources in animating all the weapons but just a few and only certain monsters. I believe it can be done well. I really liked swimming underwater in the flooded forest it did feel cramped but had an amazing atmosphere. Never knew what was lurking in those murky waters. It also allows for more unique water dwelling monsters. I hope it comes back at some point.
So what is made of the weapons that can't fight underwater? Locking people out of using their favourite weapon for a new gameplay mechanic is a very questionable thing to do.
@@overdriveseal it can also be a good way to get people to.use other weapons and maybe find new ones they like works either way
Yes, with the new wirebug and clutch claw movement, yes.
Should underwater combat come back? YES
I really can't argue with the amount of resources needed to make Underwater Combat work in the first place. And I'm honestly not expecting it in the 6th Generation of games. Even with the move to the RE Engine and the massive strides they are making with it, Underwater Combat needs a whole lot more time in the oven if it's supposed to be anywhere near good. That said however, I do think that they will try it again eventually.
The RE Engine is one of the major reasons why I think that this most controversial of mechanics is going to return. After extensive internal testing, of course. Why? Monster Hunter has used custom builds of the MT Framework for most of its life. The same basic engine was used for both Monster Hunter 2 and Iceborne. Different iterations, but the same core. This worked relatively well, giving us the celebration that was Generations and Generations Ultimate. But it also had drawbacks when they did more than it was ever intended for. We see this in Tri and World with their limited roster and skeletons respectively. In both cases their Expansion greatly increased the number of Large Monsters, close to tripling and doubling respectively. This does speak a very clear message of finding footing and pushing further.
Do you want to know how Rise and Sunbreak compare? Both outnumber World and Iceborne respectively. Rise adds a third on top of World while Sunbreak has only 10 more than Iceborne currently, but this is despite using a new engine. With more unique skeletons being used. There are individual challenges, but there is little doubt that Capcom will eventually reach a point where all the basic rigs will be in the RE Engine with a lot of creativity freed up.
How do you innovate after that? Verticality is reaching its limit and some form of fast movement will likely return. As will Palamutes if Iori's parents are anything to go by. But what would be truly new to most if not everyone? While more half-submerged Monsters are definitely going to happen, Almudron and Somnacanth being four other examples with Beotodus being a fifth, they will be the same as regular new Monsters. Novel at first, but par of the course the third time around. This leads me to believe that Capcom is going to revisit Underwater Combat eventually. It's the only true expansion to gameplay left at this stage. In fact, I'd even say that the half-submerged state represents an "in-between" for when underwater Combat does return. This could replace the awkward run to deep water while the Monster's moveset still changes.
I'll admit that I am incredibly biased towards this, but I don't see much of a possible evolution that avoids the ocean indefinitely.
Land-based verticality mechanics are fairly optimized. What more could Capcom do short of changing the left hand tool to improve verticality if it's already working as intended? The only people who found underwater combat a bane were people who failed to adapt to movement in water and those that didn't want to. If movement was the issue then Capcom could increase movement in water just as they sped up the movement of sluggish weapons like the gunlance, greatsword, even the hunting horn. A hunter shouldn't have had trouble moving at increased speeds in water if s/he can lug around weapons that weigh a ton and take attacks from monsters that weigh more. Adding new underwater specific attacks to existing monsters that CAN swim could be a bit difficult but most aquatic monsters share the same skeletons with different skins over them. Most of them already share the same movement. There are animations and mo-caps that exist for older weapons and many animations on new weapons are shared from old ones, on land AND underwater. Even the new weapons that don't have underwater animations would just take some of the mo-caps from existing weapons that do. Making new underwater maps would be as difficult as making new land based maps so that's moot (Coral Highlands should have been the Coral SEA). It WOULD take resources to add all of the above, but it likely won't be as intensive as one would think. Capcom still has those resources from all the games they made (including the "wasted" TRI) to, as you put it, "build upon what already exists."
I dislike the idea of a Lagiacrus fighting like a Jyuratodus. A Rathalos (as well as other monsters that fight in the air for extended periods like Bazelgeuse, Kushala, etc.) is fought in 3 axes and THERE'S NOT ONE SINGLE COMPLAINT given about combat on a 3rd axis in those fights. You claim that a Lagiacrus doing the same attacks on land that it does underwater as unremarkable, yet it DOES have one or two unique attacks underwater. Does a Rathalos not have the same attacks on the ground that he does in the air? Why are the unique Rathalos air attacks remarkable and not the Lagiacrus' underwater ones? Lagiacrus is the ruler of the SEA, but you would rather fight it in a shallow pond locking to the X and Y axes, while the hunter enjoys a Z. A Rathalos and a Lagiacrus are equal in a sense; the difference being one flies up on Z and the other swims down. You can make the argument that the fights are different because the hunter is locked to the X and Y on land. Except you made it a constant point throughout your video that verticality is great. In addition to wall climbing, ledge-hopping, etc, the Insect Glaive, left arm tools, and hunter arts have taken away some of the Z-axis advantage flying monsters had. This advantage on Z is intrinsically removed in waterborne monsters because you can simply swim to it no matter where it is on that axis.
The Jyuratodus template doesn't answer how to incorporate aquatic elders that many want to see return. Dire Miralis' problem of hitting the chest has been solved because of the aforementioned ways to achieve verticality to hit its chest or grapple to it outright. But what of Ceadeus? Would you relegate it to a boring Jhen Mohran ship fight, have it sliding around like a Jyura in shin-high water, or mayhaps have it move on land on it's flippers like a seal?
Capcom has more funds and (after announcing a 2025 release) more than a year to make underwater combat work in WILDS IF they chose to. Don't shut the idea out because YOU feel it would be a "bad decision" for them.
imagine namielle in an underwater fight
I've heard alot of people complain saying it doesn't make sense because he seems to be soley for the coral highlands but I love the idea of him dropping in the ocean and just being "well this is amazing"
I'd really love it to come back. I know they can do it bigger and better than it's ever been before, no matter how long it takes. But, even if they never return the mechanic some of us would absolutely love a switch port. A second analog stick makes it much easier.
That's why I bought the new 3ds XL with the stick. Was totally enjoyable with it
Yes , yes it should . However they should try and make controls better
As annoying and sometimes clunky the underwater combat was, it still was a fun time fighting water monsters in their environment. It really makes you feel you are fighting them at their peak.
Thing is, underwater combat is SUPPOSED to feel clunky, since now the hunter is in an unfamiliar environment they aren't used to fighting in. That's why most leviathans and aquatic monsters seem so awkward on land, they're out of their element
@@xenomorphoverlord I doubt that. The great sword suffered the most underwater. It was clear some weapons were way better underwater. It was a nice idea but nothing Id like to do again
@@xenomorphoverlord tbf, if some weapons are straight up almost unplayable because of underwater, would you blame people disliking it.
@@xenomorphoverlord I get what you mean but hoo boy, sometimes those hitboxes are annoying haha
@@OverlyCriticalAnime GS is great underwater though? You can head snipe the head much more easily than when the monsters are on land.
I love underwater combat because it makes so much sense for a game like Monster Hunter to have it, following the monster & adapting to the situations they put you in it's just so immersive & doesn't matter if it will always feel more clunky than land combat, it won't be an inefficient use of resources for development time if it was used more effectively than in Tri, sure it's no easy task but it's definitely possible.
If it will always feel more clunky than land combat, then that sets a limit to how far they can refine it, giving them less reason to pursue its development in the future. It _definitely_ matters.
@@purpleemerald5299 yeah well I meant for the players that won't really matter much because the point of underwater combat isn't to be an equal to land combat, it's it's own kind of navigation & experience.
@@bass2126 Oh. Well then yes.
In 3U they did have all of the weapons. I never played Tri, but I didn’t know it had so few of the regular features
Yeah, kinda weird how they cut so many weapon options, but we got them back in 3U, so that's that.
I love underwater combat because it added another dimension of play to Monster Hunter; the movement, to me, was graceful; and the mechanics taught me patience, to pay better attention to what I'm doing and what's going on around me, and to learn the monsters move sets both in and out of the water. It also helped me learn more about the range of the weapons I used.
Its crazy how the best new feature added to combat gets the most hate
All the problems you listed can't be solved if they don't try to, underwater combat is bad because we only have 1 example of it, take the clutch claw, it was really bad, but now we have the marionette spider, and everyone loved it, in an space of 1 gen, we've gone from one the hated mechanics in the series to a loved one. We could be fighting somnacanth or plesioth in an area where there's lakes divide in levels and see him jumping between them, mh3 underwater combat shouldn't be seen as the norm, and that can't be changed to something better and that improves on the monsters and maps. We have the base to underwater combat, but if we don't do anything with have it back, its not going to be improved. If continue getting world-like games and it doesn't have underwater combat, the game would feel incomplete.
I agree that underwater combat wouldn't be that great, mainly due to the fact that a lot of the monsters that came after Tri, even the amphibians and the more aquatic ones, wouldn't work logically.
Tetranadon doesn't seem like he'd be capable of swimming underwater, he'd probably burrow in shallow muddy water to ambush prey or walk on the bottom of deeper bodies of water but that's about it.
Mizutsune would probably be horrible at under water combat since his bubbles would just float upwards and he'd probably lose a ton of his bubblefoam just going into deep water, also his long claws seem like they're mainly for fishing on the surface.
Somnacanth could work, she seems much more adapted for living underwater, idk how her sleep powder would work tho since everybody's gonna be holding their breath, unless they'll be focusing on making her use those clams or whatever more I don't see how she'd work, but even then they'll have to work in where she gets them from since we see her dive underwater to get them in Rise.
Almudron also wouldn't work since he's not a swimmer, he just burrows in mud and uses a golden liquid he produces to dissolve rocks.
Most of them feel more like animals that live close to water and probably require moisture to live, rather than living in water, and some of their abilities just don't work under water from a logical point of view.
It's as you said, they'll have to dedicate a ton of resources to making a massive roster of new monsters and waste resources that could've been spent on polishing the rest of the game, kinda like what happened during the development of base World, where they spent a lot of their resources trying to get the game to run with Zorah, an incredibly boring hunt that most people either didn't care for or outright hated.
Regarding mirewalker I would like
Waterwalker
Lvl 1 - Nothing
Lvl 2 - Negate the effects of shallow water (shin height)
Lvl 3 - Make the effect of deep water (hip height) be the same as what shallow water would be were it not negated.
Mind you this would rely on a return to the old slot system but keep the new skill system.
Another bonus of this system would be that you could create a gem loadouts that you could apply to any armour set.
Skill slot 1 = Gem A
Skill slot 2 = Gem B
Skill slot 3 = Gem C
If you have an armour set with only 2 slots and you equip this gem load out you would have Gem A and Gem B, but with a set with 3 slots you would get all of them.
I think underwater should return because of how much the hardware has progressed since the wii. Part of the problem with underwater feeling clunky was the hardware limitations. Also i don't really agree with the whole "theyd have to make underwater from scratch" argument. They could very easily just take the underwater areas from 3 ultimate and update them to the new art style and gameplay. And if were being honest they really wouldnt have to rework many weapons. Sword and sheild would have to be re worked of course, but dual blades, lance, hammer, greatsword, hunting horn, gunlance, bow, light and heavy bowgun, long sword, switch axe, none of them would have to be reworked because they all already worked pretty well underwater. Insect glaive and charged blade would have to have new movesets made, but ultimately i think it would be worth it. Also i dont agree at all with underwater not being a big part of tri and three ultimate. Yea there aren't many underwater monsters, but there are more quests than just monster hunts. Also the story of both tri and three ultimate completely revolves around the idea of underwater combat. I think it would be easier to design underwater today being that they have hardware that works on multiple platforms as well. It should be noted that monster hunter tri had a big portion of its development time dedicated to re working it for a console it had never been on before. Monster hunter went from a psp series to now being developed for the wii because it was the most popular console at the time. And to my knowledge the monster hunter team had never worked with any other hardware than the playstation at that point. It could become a lot easier today being that the games are developed across multiple platforms today.
I can't say I agree with you.
I do absolutely see the logic in your arguments. It's just...I had fun. I loved the change of pace between fighting on land and underwater and Lagiacrus to this day remains my favorite monster (with Jhen Moran and the original Alatreon in close 2nd and 3rd).
I saw underwater combat as a chellenge to step out of my comfort zone and fight the monster on its own terms, rather than just a limitation of my movement. Depth perception has never been an issue for me, neither have the controls.
The one negative memory I have is from sometimes unintentionally dodging up or down when I wanted to go back, but I view that as something that could be easily improved upon.
Also I can't help but feel like a lot of your later points boil down to 'stick with the old stuff that works and play it safe, rather than implementing something completely new' which I also disagree with.
So yeah, I would absolutely love to see underwater combat and environments make a return.
I personally think switch skills should be done away with in the next game and they simply focus on really getting the weapon balance right. However, I think UNDERWATER COMBAT presents an opportunity for some of them to come back. Think about it. How do you do a longsword Helmbreaker while underwater? It wouldn't really work. So, on land have the standard moveset, but underwater, be able to do a sacred sheathe instead. Lots of switch skills, while I think they wouldn't work outside of Rise on land, would be perfect for underwater.
Surge Slash Combo for greatsword might be great underwater.
Spiral slash for dual blades seems like it's practically made for underwater.
Blast Dash for gunlance would be sick to have back underwater exclusive.
While not a switch skill, (it totally should have been though) Energy Blade could replace SAED, since underwater you can't really slam the ground with an SAED.
Insect Glaive couldn't really have the normal aerial combo underwater, so why not let it use kinsect slash instead? Like spiral slash on dual blades, it seems like it's practically made for it.
Short answer, yes, long answer, hell yeah
Loved the video and left a like, but just wanted to address something.
You mentioned how being underwater limits you, puts you at a disadvantage, and how that’s a negative. I wholeheartedly disagree. To me it makes perfect sense that being underwater would put the monster at a huge advantage - you’re out of your element.
You’ve entered their domain, of course you won’t be as agile as they’ll be when underwater, you’re fighting a giant sea serpent and you’re just a guy. They live underwater, we’re simply visiting.
I would love to fight Namielle underwater, that'll be really cool
Before finishing the video, I strongly believe that it should return. Considering things the devs have said in the past I'm certain it will return in 6, but only time will tell.
Damn, the word “yes” stretched over 56 minutes. Quite the impressive feat.
Monster hunter NEEDS underwater combat back. I dont know what new land-based mechanic they could add to keep the game fresh, but a much improved version of underwater combat would add a wide variety of new mechanics and cool monsters, and would make the game feel fresh, imo
You mentioned there's nothing new added to 3U in terms of underwater combat, but there actually is something.
If you hold down the dodge button and either forward or backwards on the analog stick, you'll swim straight up/down (relative to your camera). On top of this, you can now dodge up or down, which really screwed me over when I played through Tri and was already used to 3U.
Tbh
I actually rather like the Rampage
It's cool and unique and I rather like playing them
I would have liked if they had put them in Sunbreak in some way tbh, I mean it makes sense for them not to be as we're not in Kamura anymore
But would have been interesting to see them expand on it more
Heck I would want to fight some monsters in that style such as Lao
I would have liked it if it was in mr and was completely Optional that way if people didn’t want to do it they didn’t have to
@@oeeo6thealatreon118 I can understand that
Tbh I legit don't see the criticism for it but that may just be me
@@omega13whitelucario95 yeah I honestly liked it too they were just fun to do every once in awhile
@@oeeo6thealatreon118 yeah :3
Sadly they are not as useful anymore :C which makes me sad
@@omega13whitelucario95 at least you can see the satisfying damage you do during them if you do them with mr weapons lmao
Adding water combat and then taking it away is painful. Even if its not good it should still be in the games. Seeing water and not being able to take a swim anymore is torture. Must return. The games have felt empty and soulless ever since the removal. I went back and played some 3U a few months ago. Its not great, annoying at times, dreadful at others but this feeling remains nonetheless. I love underwater combat. It adds so much to the world, so much immersion. There is no doubt it can be improved and be made great.
I actually agreed with it's removal in 4, due to their most cited reasoning being that was the focus on improving and mastering ground combat which was a worthwhile sacrifice at the time and world was a reinvention of the game mecanics, so I gave it a pass has well. That being said, I will be really dissapointed if 6 doesn't bring it back in any way, has a I feel that it is the perfect time for it.
Imagine insect glaive underwater being a like a seabob
I would like them to give it another shot.
It felt better in 3U than in vanilla tri.
I would've expected them to improve upon it further in 4U but they just scraped it entirely, which annoyed me a bit, because I really liked Lagiacrus.
30:00Unless the hunters have a diving suit which would allow them to hunt like they're on land without compromising mobility or weapon choices
i think that that they are going to bring underwater back in (maybe) the next MH, as for me well i dont know, havent experienced underwater combat yet so i need to play it first.
anyways, i'll be watching this later while eating. i love long videos like this
thanks!
If they ever bring back underwater combat, they should expand on it with a new way to hunt which is by ship like the sea beasts movie from Netflix where the new way of hunting are called Voyage hunts
Hunters could have their own ship that they can customize from its weapons, sails, etc, then go out with their boat to hunt monsters like Royal Ludroth, Plesioth, Lagiacrus, and even Ceadeus in Sea Voyage Hunts
There could also be sand Voyage hunts that can be a High rank thing where you can hunt monsters like Cephadrome, Nibelsnarf, Monoblos, and even Jhen Mohran
Sky Voyage hunts can be a Expansion thing where you’d hunt monsters like Paolumu, Legiana, Rathalos, Bazelgeuse, Valstrax, and many more including Amatsu
the next MH game that would ever have that sort of idea might as well be called Monster Hunter Voyage, while it’s expansion could be called MH Voyage Skyward
Monster Hunter Tri underwater combat is special. Nothing impacts gameplay like it did. That seemless transition of locamotion. It's not our native environment as a Hunter. We directly go in to fight on the monsters turf. It's a tug of war for the advantage where both the Monster and Hunter need to adapt depending on who has the control of a zone.
You have an active objective to push the monster out of the water and back to land. That balance of power is really cool. The Developers at Capcom are more talented than ever before they can definitely bring back underwater combat and truly evolve it into something more than a gimmick. Flying Wyverns wish they could affect the fight like a Royal Ludroth could.
I like it for the world building opportunities and the fact that the creatures live in this world
I started playing Monster Hunter back in 4U so I do not have a strong opinion towards a mechanic I never played. However, none of my friends who have played 3 Ultimate had anything positive to say regarding underwater combat. Great perspective shared throughout the video and I agree that the team should focus on what works
I have a lot to say about underwater as a Rise newcomer who has been working backwards, but to keep it short: Yes, I think underwater should come back and I disagree with you.
What I think could be worth doing however is make another poll to see whether people still want underwater, to see whether people have changed their minds after the video or if people really are adamant about it. You could also make a poll whether people would want underwater vs half-water (vs no water?), because in the event underwater never comes back I think half-water would work great (it's something I've even thought about myself prior to this, when thinking of how they could bring back underwater focused monsters).
It should but it needs a complete rework
Underwater combat could be better, but the monsters you fight underwater are sooooo cool. It really feels like you're in their space.
I recently got 3U and am playing it solo for the first time, which has given me a new perspective on underwater combat.
Before I experienced underwater for myself, I used to really want it back, because it just makes so much sense for MH, and could potentially be made really great.
Now... I still want it back. I find it really fun in 3U! But I think the way it's implemented should be changed. I used to think that the main problem with it was probably the camera controls being clunky without a 2nd joystick. But honestly, I don't find the 3DS controls that bad. I've adapted to them.
What I think they should do however, is NOT make your movement tied to the camera. As it is now, you move in the direction the camera faces. But I think it could be much better if instead, your normal movement only moved horizontally, exactly like on land. And to move up and down, you have the shoulder buttons for ascending and descending. That way, you minimize issues of the camera not cooperating, or it just not being ideal. Like for example, probably my biggest complaint about underwater in 3U is that holding backwards moves you toward the camera, making you need to think backwards kind of, because if you have a tilted camera, going forward is on an upward/downward angle, and going backward is the opposite of that angle. Plus, it sometimes forces you to take the camera off the monster if you need to get away from it.
Maybe they could keep the function of swimming with the camera in some form, but I think there really just needs to be dedicated ascend and descend buttons. The biggest issue I see with this is not having that many buttons on the controller. But maybe they could free up that extra space by going back to the old functions of the shoulder buttons. Like in GU on the switch, only L and R do anything. ZL and ZR don't really have a purpose. So R is one of your attack/guard buttons when your weapon is out, and is your run button when sheathed. Y is also the only way to sheathe, and to draw your weapon with your second draw attack requires pressing R+X+A. The new controls that World introduced are better, no doubt, but it's not like the old ones are bad at all. Once you adjust to them, they feel just as good, so I wouldn't be mad at all if they went back to them just to give us up and down buttons for underwater combat.
Tri has ZL and ZR buttons you can use to go down and up in underwater. It was probably removed by accident when they cut out the PS2 controls you could have in Tri
I'd like to see them make underwater exploration a thing just to.. test the waters?~ Jokes aside I don't think I'd be a bad idea to add underwater areas but without the combat part. That way the developers can get feedback from the community about how they felt about the movement and mechanics without diving too deep into it and if it's well received then adding the combat and monsters in a later game or expansion. Ya know?
Glad you made a shallow water segment, it is a compromise that could work as a replacement for underwater combat
I said "glad you talked about shallow water" because when you started talking about the negatives, your tone considerably shifted to an aggressive one that was unusual to hear from you after your entire catalog of videos
After this video i came to more Conclusions than before:
Underwater combat should return with many changes because verticality may went to far... People can say whatever they want but verticality and orizzontal movement in rise went way to far, i don't like it's flashy combat sistem at all, it isn't the same series anymore basically
Underwater combat should return for just one entry with a major focus only to later use shallow water to momentarily replace it
No matter how you counter this part, potential for new water monsters is big... Especially considering that out of all the monsters in the series, around one third of them are fire monsters (and sunbreak is adding even more)
Also i need to see a mh6 trailer as soon as possible just to see what to expect from it in regards of underwater, the wait is killing me and this video is killing my hopes for underwater combat returning
Yes shallow water would be enough but it would be a shame... Capcom can make one of the first good water combat systems, breaking this standard of bad water levels in gaming
I didn’t know that OG MHTri’s caves were dark… which actually could be implemented underwater, imagine hunting a Namielle in the water and then it suddenly lets out a flash of lightning that obscures your vision before descending into the dark abyss below, before racing towards you and unleashing a powerful electrical discharge
This is the kinda thing that makes me hope for underwater combat in the next MH game
I think for me especially considering Tri was my first experience with MH, I will always want underwater areas to be a part of the hunting experience. I think even just having explorable spaces with water and caves/geysers etc as well as coastal sandbars or swampy jungles allows for the worlds we inhabit in the MH universe to feel so much more lively and authentic. You could have hidden air pockets and secret beaches inside a vast cave system, fog-laden swamps eerily beckoning you into the mist.
After 3 Ultimate, playing in 4 or Gen and going to a map like the Jungle or Deserted Island and not being able to swim felt so agonizingly heartbreaking. I would even be fine with limited combat options/spear fishing small monsters like Sharqs and other fish.
I think the versatility of having partially or fully submerged areas on a map on its own is a huge reason why it should at least be seriously considered as an addition to a new MH game. Monsters like Tetsucabura or Tetranadon could lie in wait and pounce at hunters like we’ve seen them do with small monsters in various cutscenes in the series. We could have an octopus monster creating smoke screens to obscure vision and create sneak attacks, crocodile monsters like Lagiacrus getting a death roll pin attack.
There are so many crazy interesting and incredible fish species in our ecosystem and it seems a shame to co-opt them for a terrestrial creature. I don’t mind the angle of using a semi submerged combat system ala Jyuratodus, but I think it should work in concert with a system that allows for fully submerged gameplay.
You could go the Rage Gaming route and have hunters fall to the sea bed and hunt creatures as they attack from above and the sides, or utilize a new movement mechanic like a wire bug to move through the water.
On that note I think it could be fair to speculate that hunters could simply just move as quickly as on land in the water, for Tri/3U the movement slowed down, but as we know that wasn’t as well received, I can imagine the dev teams would take that into account and streamline the combat experience, moving it in line with the terrestrial combat that makes the series so fun. Whose to say that underwater combat has to be this massive departure from the gameplay we know and love - it should serve to deepen the game through the options it provides in area traversal, exploration, and the monster roster opportunities it could create. If a monster is difficult to target or hit, have an item or trap that serves to lure it/immobilize it. Monsters like Azure Rathalos and Legiana can be particularly annoying in the air and I would argue fighting them while they’re flying everywhere can be tedious and frustrating, that’s where things like bounce bombs and flash pods come into play, to even the playing field and regain control. The same could be said for underwater combat.
And even beyond all that it would allow for the return of one of the most beloved and requested flagships in Lagiacrus.
I have a weird opinion on this topic; I want underwater combat, but I want a "low friction" concept that IMO would be better than the Jyuratodus method. Let me explain my pitch:
*I want hunters to be able to walk on the seabed as if they're on land.* _(eg. you get a device that releases a coating of mizu bubblefoam to explain it)_ This would be active only when your weapon is drawn, so while sheathed, you can swim in 3D like you'd expect. When you draw your weapon, controls revert to as if you were grounded, complete with you falling and able to do aerial attacks, with no animation changes except new VFX to reflect you being underwater, and perhaps some _slightly_ slowed animations to produce the underwater feel.
This would integrate "underwater combat" into the main gameplay loop. Instead of Capcom having to design full 3D fights, underwater monsters could be designed like flying monsters, with you fighting them on the seabed and them floating just over it. It'd have enough differences to feel distinct, without so many that the feature is unreasonable to implement or feels bad to play with, because it _is_ essentially land combat with small changes, not much different from fighting Amatsu.
People might complain this loses some of the appeal of 3rd gen, but IMO the uniqueness tradeoff is worth it. Besides the new ecology/atmosphere variety which is the main reason I want it, I do think you underestimate how hunters' inability to swim is limiting Capcom's world design in 5th gen.
I can see your points and the problems Gen 3 showed underwater.
But that is a bit of a problem more so on the engine and the hardware the game played on.
And i whole heartenly disagree with the notion that underwater exploration and combat should be fully axed from the games.
Not only is it opening up new monster types, fully aquatic like sharks, cephalopods and the like, but also completely different level designs and mission designs.
And the main problem Tri and 3U had with their movement isn't even a hinderance on todays hardware and software.
I want to highlight three games here: The Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion, Assassins Creed 4 Black Flag and ABZÛ
Oblivion let you fight underwater. It took some mechanics away, like shooting a bow and long ranged spells, but you were still able to go in there and fight well with not difference in movement
Black Flag has about 10 ship wrecks you can visit via a giant dive bell the movement is a bit slugisher than your movement on land but it is still fair, you can get around every obsticale quite easily and your movement is free from the camera.
And then there is ABZÛ. It is built around water movement and exploration and it is amazing. I love that ocean game to bits. The movement is fluid, you have special abilties, the animals in the water feel good it is just amazing
And like in Black Flag you can decide how to move freely without the camera. Granted that was thanks to holding down a button to swim forward and using either the control stick or WASD for controlling your direction, but that can be easily added for a game like Monster Hunter.
Instead of the sprint you swim at a steady pace and you use the regular movement to control your direction.
It would change a bit of the movement in the hunt, but that could be implemented quite well.
So no Underwater exploration should not be completely cut from the game.
Only going the save route lets us only play the same game with a new coat of paint.
Pokémon is a good bad example of that. taking risks should be welcomed here and there.
And the giant leviathans like Lagiacrus would work rather poorly in a swamp like Jyratodus.
Lagiacrus is by far the largest of the water dwelling Levithans. The only other monster in this class in that size range is Agnaktor.
Lagiacrus is around twice the size of Jyratodus and Royal Ludroth and is a primarely marine Leviathan class monster.
Fighting him in a knee deep tide pool would feel like a ripoff.
And about the standard attacks for the Leviathans, that part is by far not unique to them.
Capcom takes this "shortcut" with almost all of their more wildly used monster skeletons.
I take World/Iceborne as my example here.
Take a look at Pukei Pukei, Rathalos, Rathian, Paolumo and Yian Garuga. They have quite a few animations that are just copy and paste from skeleton to skeleton.
That makes sense, similar body plan leads to similar movements and attacks.
Even some Elder Dragons have that. Kushala, Velkana, Teostra and Lunastra all have a similar bodyplan to each other. And Namielle and Vaal Hazak share their skeleton.
This wouldn't be too much of a divergence from their usual work.
Remember they had to build World from scratch, a huge risk upending the classic style completely. And yet it paid off better than any other game in Capcom's history
Great essay.
Your argument at the end convinced.
Continue to build on what you have rather than take a plunge into the depths and hope for the best.
Something I've thought about is having hunts still fight under water, but the hunters have a weighted belt that keeps them at the sea floor and the monsters swim around you and fight you. But to give the hunters a bit of mobility to fight the monster's mobility, the hunter can jump at the monster. Jumping would also be the mechanic of the game so it would be incorporated in the main game and the hunters moveset would only need some minor tweeks or simply slowing down the attack animations
I definitely agree with your suggestions. Make arenas with more gimmicks and aspects that monsters can make of. Maybe a hunt with a leviathan can start on dry land, but it'll retreat to water zones after some fighting time. The leviathans could then make use of swimming and skating to attack faster, and maybe make use of features like geysers or waterfalls. We already saw this a lot in world, where monsters had special additional mechanics tied to their lairs, like TziTzi or Diablos. Obviously, coding these gimmicks in took a lot of effort to only improve one or two fights, but it probably didnt take as much time as a whole gamemode.
Yes. Everyone is asking for Lagiacrus back and he is absolute dogshit in GU for the most part. He NEEDS water combat. Same with other monsters. Everyone says the controls were bad but remember, Tri released in 2009/2010, and 3U in 2011/2013. A time/generation where all the controls were still clunky as hell. 4U and then GU were a bit better. Remember what it was like before World?
World onward is where things improved immensely. The game engines can make water combat AND movement leagues better and can open up so many possibilities for other combat and movement options outside of water. If there was ever a time for water combat to return, it's the next game and they will make it incredible
Plesioth is known for being difficult and “fair”
As the shown clip is a hip check, absolutely killed me XD
23:14 I was not expecting to see just... a normal shark, lol
Something that didn't hit me is that they have to make new animations for all underwater moves. Just that alone is a large time cost, and if they wanted to add a new move they'd need to animate it twice for land and water. Then how would IG's vault work? There are no aerial attacks under water so that could be a mechanical problem for IG. Not to mention all of the new moves like perfect rush, TCS, and savage axe that would need to also get water animations
Even with this cost I do hope it makes a return eventually. I'd like to see Somnacanth, Namielle, and Jyuratodus get underwater versions since not many 5th gen monsters would be capable of swimming. It would be a mechanic that would add a lot of depth to the series
Sharks in the mh world is called a "sharq"
Go figure lol
Maybe we could have "underwater" combat in form of utilizing the the way shallow water works but instead you stay near the top of deeper water almost like how Olympic swimmers spend most of the time on the top or near it and the monsters would fallow suit with this you could have all of the pros of land combat have the unique water monsters and their movements and eliminate the issues of using your camera to change your directional movements and their could be an "set infinite" item like your kuni or sharp stones in rise that allow you to swim faster and have normally movements it'd just be a case of not using them would be like having infinite bubble blight where moving or attacking will drift you in the direction you face
Even if it's a gigantic undertaking to create functional maps, monsters, movement and weapon animations, I still think underwater combat deserves at least a second chance. With the current state of the technology plus the many years of experience the devs have gained after so many games, it would be even more of a waste to just let the concept drown after only one attempt.
Hehe "drown"
I like how you put it. It's too much of a waste to NOT at least try again. 2 whole weapons never got a chance with it. Tons of monsters would fit perfectly in it. Without it, some monsters might never even have a chance to come back. It works way too well with Monster Hunter's overall theme of environments and functional ecosystems.
I'd honestly be fine if some things were sacrificed to bring it back. For example, reuse the slinger (not the claw, although I personally like it) as the game's "thing" and expand on it a bit. Slinger bursts in weapon movesets were super interesting and underrated in Iceborne. They gave certain weapons like longsword the ability to change direction and extend combos. Buff slinger damage a bit, add some new types of ammo, and incorporate bursts into more weapon combos and I'd say that's enough for it to be the central mechanic again. In fact, borrow off of a lot of World's mechanics. I know it's "cool" to hate on World and Iceborne, but the sales numbers don't lie. It was an amazing game that people loved, and many are hoping for some kind of sequel. I say basing a lot of the game off of World's mechanics could save them enough time and resources to invest in improved and polished underwater combat. Two birds with one stone. A sort of sequel to World, and Underwater combat.
Sekiro is the only game that I've seen with good underwater combat and mobility, and it therefore added to the experience
I think mh deserves a second chance considering that it is possible to make that system work
Yes. Absolutely.
I think it's gonna have to come back for one simple reason, it'll open up space for brand new monsters that could potentially be very unique. Even now I feel like a lot of the monsters that are new are starting to feel kinda same-y
Historically, I wasn't a big fan of underwater, but I had an idea combining it with something I'm also not a big fan of, wirebugs. Being able to zip around, with a scooter thingy or something, but only underwater would make the three-dimensionality more explored and it would become a fusion of both. It'd also differentiate the movesets perhaps. I don't know if it would work, but I like the idea.
I completely agree with you and I'm glad someone said it because I keep seeing people start to try to defend underwater combat. I started the series with 3U back when it released and I remember I went to great lengths every time to try to force the water monsters onto land to fight however I could. I always dreaded underwater combat; it was just miserable to play and added very little to the game.
I honestly think most of the people who say they want it back just never actually played Tri or 3U.
This is why the wire bug is one of the most greatest addition to the monster hunter games and why it should be brought back in MH6. It gives a reasonable answer for a hunter to walk on the surface of the water and gives the leviathans their full moveset.
You don't have to point the camera away from the monster to move away. Just like on land you just have to move towards the camera.
The depth perception was a major problem for 3U. If they had made it for the WiiU first then they could have kept Tri's HD graphics which is why tri didn't have that problem.