If You Are On the Fence About Palatal Expansion
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2022
- In this video I discuss two potential options for people who are on the fence about pursuing palatal expansion:
1) do nothing (which is better than doing the wrong thing, such as a toothborne expander)
2) consider a conservative MSE expansion of just a few millimeters, which offers some guaranteed functional and aesthetic upside while reducing risk of MSE downside.
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I learned a lot from this video. Thank you Ron for you channel and everything you do.
Ron I'm glad you're back posting regularly on CZcams, not just because you helped me on my own journey over a year ago but these new batch of videos you've been making all this time later reflect a lot of my own experiences. I'm glad to see someone who's opinion I respect in this field reach a lot of the same conclusions I did post treatment. I love the lifestyle oriented videos especially, and relate heavily to the "upward mewing spiral." Things start to fall into place everywhere.
For sure, thanks for sharing. I know when others are relating to my experiences that we must be getting closer to the truth.
Ron, your videos are always so understandable and helpful. Thank you for what you do. I was wondering if you might consider a video in the future about the logistics of getting MSE and braces done when there is no provider near you and you’d have to travel for treatment. I am encountering this issue, and considering MSE providers are so few and far between, I’m sure others are as well. Any insight would help!
Thanks a lot for the content you are providing. I would love to see a collab with mike mew and get questions concerning their approach vs mse and so on answered. I´m an on the fence case myself and in the future I surely will do some form of treatment. But, I want it to be the absolute best decision for me. So this video was especially helpful! But, I have a lot thoughts regarding the Mews current approach, how mse fits or doesn´t fit in, the results they are getting currently with young adults etc. That video would surely kill it! Take care brother
Great video as always!
Consider making one about your orthodontic journey until now (you haven’t updated us but mentioned that your are still doing something?).I think your audience will appreciate it.
Also, would be great to hear your thoughts about MARPE in general, not just MSE. And Mew’s biobloc too.
Of course, just so much to cover...it's an intimidating video to make.
Thank you I needed to hear this it’s just very difficult to find an MSE provider
good to see these videos again, jaw looks strong, good to hear your teeth are fixed bro.
Thanks brother getting there.
We have an entire playlist devoted to palatal expansion for free- czcams.com/play/PLjH1ebZYKKM0403kXa_r5LlkIS6dRmaih.html&si=PKigWRs6tgojAEfI
Great video... you've been killin' it since your return. I think you need a video specifically on Biobloc! Or even Biobloc vs. MSE... Maybe even a JawHacks/Orthotropics collab video about it?!?!
Everyone would benefit from this! I know you said all tooth borne expanders universally cause negative effects (ALF, DNA AGGA) but maybe all tooth borne expanders are not equal? The Mews had a lot of biobloc cases over the past few decades, did any turn out as bad as yours? (Maybe AGGA just sucks.)
I know Mike Mew uses both expanders, I would love to hear why he chooses one product over the other. 7 years ago he made a video stating he disapproved of rapid palatal expansion... I would love to hear what changed his mind and why he decided to start MSE cases.
Also, John Mew has recently made some comments on the orthotropic channel on the dangers of MSE that are really quite concerning.
Also MARPE in general vs MSE would be great (MARPE is super category of MSE)
Hey Ronald, I think at least part of the reason your upper intermolar width has come down since you completed expansion is because you are mesializing those molars to close your AGGA gaps, so the molars now reside more forward in the alveolar arch, and they are closer together even if the arch itself remains wide. There’s probably also some uprighting of the buccal torque.
Great observation, you may be right.
@JawHacks How would expanding the maxilla help mandibular recession in an adult?
Thanks very much for all the VERY HELPFUL commentaries. My question is the following --- for those whose functional and aesthetic "issues" are a direct result (and often a significant direct result) of having had, as a child, all 4 biscuspids extracted followed by a full course of retractive orthodontics, would you include any modifications at all (either to any of your content or even possibly to the 4-6 mm target range)? Very much looking forward to your continued feedback.....
Can you do a video on how to know what exactly needs done and how to find/trust a doctor to do the right thing?
I had the 'you look fine, your jaw looks good' treatment despite having a very oval face, rather narrow palate (John Mew felt about 33-34mm when he saw pictures) and rather setback jaw (braces and 4 extractions as a child at around 13-14) and when I went to go for tongue tie surgery a few times (a few years back) before I went to the right practitioner who actually understood mewing and it's benefits and wasn't of the mainstream orthodontic opinion. My main concern right now is my existing asymmetry with a midline discrepancy. While I'd be fine with the pre-existing asymmetry not changing (since MSE of course only expands the current palatal shape) or even getting a little worse if it means widening my face and creating better midline height (since, I notice so regularly, people with even very wide faces but asymmetries, slanted or uneven faces), I worry a practitioner might find reasons not to pursue treatment short of surgery (e.g. double jaw). I did speak to a European practitioner who Derek Mahoney forwarded me to and while he was very encouraging while aware of the asymmetry and midline discrepancy, which was fantastic, I'm still concerned he might, upon a closer, in person look, suggest surgery given the asymmetry. I do hope not if I can help it. Great content as always Ron. Always good to see you back.
Wishing you luck brother. Hang in there and tread carefully. You are right not to rush into anything. If you want to talk please consider signing up for a one on one chat (link in description). Would be happy to discuss your situation in more detail.
@@JawHacks Thank you very much mate. It's been a few years now I've been going through the motions with all things mewing and considering MSE. There's no doubt I'll be coming to you for a proper discussion when the time comes closer that I feel ready (money and life-wise) to properly invest in MSE. You're one of if not the foremost authority on undertaking MSE and I'd certainly deeply value your opinion on the road to doing it.
@@user-nv2wt4hi8t you got it brother.
@@user-nv2wt4hi8tIn terms of correcting the asymmetry, have you considered seeing an osteopath?
@@LucaAnamaria It's another one I might have considered, but after 3 physiotherapists, a functional dentist and a myofunctional therapist, I felt a little bit exhausted by external professionals who only knew pieces of the story, and have actually made more progress gathering a variety of information like how and what best different neck muscles to strengthen, how much force to apply (more-so than just lifting the tongue up like say, an 8 year old would need to, enough in my hopes to roughly emulate semi rapid expansion like Doctor John does with biobloc but not too much that you blow past the lower jaw, like in MSE) etc. That intel has only come through my personal trial and error on a daily basis for almost 3 and a half years.
hey ron! appreciate your videos. Can you please give an update on your migraine? thanks!
Any mse providers you know of near folsom or sacramento in California? Also what would you recommend to expand the lower jaw after mse? Is it still those options you listed in previous videos? Last question but how long do you think you would be able to go to work after mse?
Wait so getting maxillary expansion can help improve sunken temples?
It should.
Hey ron, i heard you say something in your past videos about mesializing your molars with Invisalign, is that possible? I had premolars extraction and my gaps still open so this option seems nice for me.
I expanded 16mm (2 MSE’s). Only lost 1.84mm when the 2nd MSE was removed after around 3 months having finished actively expanding. The extra intraoral volume is huge to mewing. Working on that positive upwards spiral you talk about brother 🙌 hope all is well much love 💙
P.S I should note I had quite a bit of asymmetry on my right side, so the 1.84mm loss was welcomed aesthetically
Hey bro how have the results been
Please tell me how you expand your palate sir😥😥
Why u needed 2 expanders?
Update?
@@omarshaahz9362mse
Can you please do a video about EASE method from Kasey Li ? when watching him it seems to me that his method is the best for getting better nasal airway
Hello JawHacks. I hope you'll see this message, with a quick question (it would be great to have your insight). My orthodontist has suggested I get SARPE surgery for a narrow palette with a toothborne expander (it is only a little bit narrow; my breathing is normal, the only issue being that my front two teeth tap my bottom front two teeth when I attempt to say certain words, meaning that I have to modify my speech a bit). I have been looking into non-surgical options, too, although my orthodontist has suggested none of them to me. Would you suggest MSE as an alternative? I would love to try it, at the very least (female in 30s). Thank you for your time.
Great information! Thank you.
You talked about earllier how ent doctors will look inside your nose and see it as a soft tissue issue, but how about someone who got obviusly swollen turbinates for example, that could be swelled down? I don't see why treatment focusing on reducing the turbinates wouldn't be a good first option before MSE
Great video
You should talk about how won moon does not use inter molar width as a metric for expansion goals. He focuses on basal width.
what do you mean by basal width ? and where did you get this from ?
That's interesting, I'd like to learn more about that myself. Makes sense because after orthodontic correction of my maxillary teeth following MSE, my intermolar width is back down to 40ish but my arch still appears much wider.
Hi ron. out of curisosity, what do you do for a living and how do you manage to afford all those expensive appliances and procedures/surgeries?
What about Biobloc? It can be used on adults and decreases indicator line.
Ron my maxilla is ressced im not sure how bad but I really want MSE and Boneborne facemask im 16 and in seattle is it likely I can get this I have breathing problems and a very flat midface. which has caused me mental pain cause i devloped maxillary hypoplasia following bad tooth extractions and it was no where near as ressced as before. would i be a good canidate for MSE???
-Thanks
Whats your opinion on the Weston Price theory where prenatal nutrition affects your skull not mewing?
Hey Ron , i had a doubt. I have an underbite of about 3-4 mm . My front teeth comes in edge to edge bite. Should I go for upper jaw surgery or try mse along with reverse pull gear to fix my issue? I m really confused pls help
Could you post an update about your journey to dental school?
I don’t want to do palate expansion as I just don’t like the idea of splitting my bone, I’m worried about the possible side effects and don’t think I’d be able to afford someone experienced outside of the uk. I also have other health issues including a feeding tube so I don’t want more problems. My intermolar width is 34mm. I’d like to straighten my teeth though. What are your thoughts on getting just invisalign without MSE and doing myofunctional therapy and possibly posterior tongue tie release?
I'm on the fence about expansion... I would also say I'm a fence case but my teeth are not great. I have a narrow (31mm intermolar width) and high palate, some blocked sinus issues when I sleep that wake me up sometimes, which normally doesn't bother me during the day unless I lie down, can nose breathe just fine otherwise. Throat airway is OK, nasal airway I feel is narrow due to narrow palate, sometimes sleep with mouth closed, sometimes open which I feel is more habitual and lack of muscular training as I can sleep with mouth taped completely and breathe through my nose fine. I look normal to "normal" people. I have no issues in social/romantic life at all and am average looking (some say good looking some say not, so average)... but I know I have aesthetic issues, knowing what I know about all this and someone with knowledge would say the same.
I'm considering some gentle expansion for health reasons first, probably using Biobloc (as I knew a few adult males who have done Biobloc successfully recently), aesthetic reasons second. Mainly widen the maxilla and hopefully allow the mandible to come slightly forward as I feel my upper canines are creating a block holding my mandible back, which will hopefully help my dodgy right TMJ (joint) that has some issues, and also give me some more nasal airway space. It would be nice to look better aesthetically too, but as someone who has suffered with chronic health issues, health is #1 above all else.
It's interesting that you would recommend a moderate expansion with MSE for "on the fence cases" of 4-6mm, that would take my IMW to 35-37mm, which is still on the narrow to below normal side... I'm sure 4-6mm it would give me some marked nasal breathing benefits, but I wonder if it would free up my mandible enough for it to come forward those few millimeters to free up my right TMJ (joint) and help it heal/remodel? limiting maxilla expansion to 4-6mm would also make it easier to attack the issue of mandibular teeth, I'm guessing my only real option would be to tilt them outwards as I'm would not get any distraction procedures (MSDO), so expanding the maxilla 4-6mm would mean tilting each side of the lower teeth 2-3mm, which would be better than expanding the maxilla 10mm meaning I'd have to tilt the mandibular teeth 5mm on each side. Sorry for the long comment, it got away from me
Great comment, thanks for sharing.
hey did you get biobloc and what was the result??
@@davsss6406 No I didn't, its still on the cards I just have to fix a couple of other things first
@@mrbrakelolDid you pursue any treatment yet? I have a very similar case to you. I also have a high/narrow palate, yet look okay to everyone. No issues breathing through nose except on occasion when lying down + tape my mouth closed at night w/o issue. Okay airway, etc etc
@@henrykwieniawski7233 Yeah you sound exactly like me... I haven't done anything yet. My plan is to do the mewingworld course first as I know someone who is getting decent results from it. At some stage I would probably like to get some expansion, but not too much, then clean things up with invisalign I think...
THANKS SIRRR !!
do u think i shld get mse/braces jaw expanders (im 16) when i have extreme facial asymmetry?
idt theres much development on this in my country, and its rlly cheap which makes me quite suspicious.
my upper jaw is rlly narrow, lower jaw is recessed. its not that bad on my wider side but quite ugly on my narrower side. i have quite nice features feminine features but theyre more masculine looking on the narrow side thus the asymmetry is ruining them. i look horribly deformed when flipped its sooo bad. also its getting worse and worse by age. please advise me on what to do
What practitioner do you recommend for a moderate mse expansion treatment? And also do you a homeoblock followed by an mse would be effective as opposed to just mse treatment?
Can you talk about V shape splitting either in the back or front?
hey do you have any experience dealing with someone with a torus palatinus? would having would affect oral posture? having mse installed? should it just be removed?
Hey Ron,
Do you have any content on the difference between doing MSE with or without cortical puncturing?
Only difference is in the likelihood of splitting your suture
I just don't think an MSE will work for me at 35 and I am not willing to go through all that is involved in the leforte procedure, so I guess I'm out of luck. I'm so sad this new insight came about after I was in the ideal age range.
Ronny, what's your opinion on Starecta?
How do I know if I have a small airway? Where cna I get s check up?
I got SARPE (w/ Marpe) + MSDO last week. It’s been a roller coaster . Max 13mm upper and 11mm lower.
How painful was MSDO and did it change much aesthetically? Not much information online about it. Hope it went well for you!
Wait, you got 11mm from msdo?? That’s massive
Update us on this please!
@@stray4445 the lower expansion didn’t hurt at all. But the upper started hurting towards the end. 13mm upper, 11mm lower. Yes, I have a wider smile now
@@bumba8154 yes but I also did 13mm on the maxila so 11mm in the lower evens out
What are your thoughts on having implants put in to replace extractions that took place during conventional orthodontics?
Would like to know if this is a good idea. I’m looking toward extraction reversal as well
@@kuppdaballsstrokedastaff429 hey did you do it
Me too
Got mine teeth pulled when I was 14 and the orthodontist said we were gonna "smush" my remaining teeth with invisalign, which it did.
I regret it
Hey man thanks for the video. Can you make a video on failure to split on males and what can be done about it ?
Yes. I'm trying to learn about the new Piezo electric surgical assist that some orthodontists have been doing.
@@JawHacks do they use the electricity to cut bone or generate bone ?
What about a Hyrax that is fixed in the palatw and not against teeth, is it bad bc the palatw fails to aplit without assistance? I am adult female
Ron, is there any appliances to expand upper and low jaw?
What are the maxilla expansion devices? I find mewing hard to do. Been trying for 15 years.
I have a narrow face , should i get palate expander to widen it or not
If not what else can i do without surgeries
Can I implement face mask treatment with Mse without the use of specific custom hooks? e.g Attaching the elastics via molar band hooks connected to Mse. Would this produce varying results?
I wouldn't. Could cause periodontal issues or twist your molars around.
Can palatal expansion help with droopy lower eyelids?
So is MSE mainly used for people after a certain age? I am close to 17 and my understanding is that MSE is used to split the suture of the palate to expand it and the maxilla after the suture has already closed. Someone of a young-enough age wouldn't need MSE if their suture hasn't closed yet correct? Is there a specific/common age for the suture to close, and how does one tell if their suture is closed or still open?
Ay bro I'm 17 in a few days, can u please reply if u found out and what can I do
@@gokusonkakarot3758 yeah I found out. MSE is great for older teens at up. So yeah don't do a toothborne expander at 17, get MSE instead
@@Will_4560 so that means surgerically opening the middle of maxilla ?
@@gokusonkakarot3758 not surgically, the device does it for you. But yeah if you want to think of it as surgical it does basically rip the suture apart.
@@Will_4560 ok thanks 🙏 for replying
Where can I book a consultation with you? Please respond.
Will moderate MSE still lead to tooth gaps/unaesthetic teeth?
I do not understand the ''balloon face'' idea. From my expirience i feel like anyone with a narrow face stands to gain atractiveness if their cheekbone area becomes wider, ''oval face'' is often used as a synomim for ''atractive face'' for a reason, then you can even limit that effect by gaining muscle arround your jaws. I really dont get how what to me is the best effect of MSE (the possibility of midface expansion) is considered a side effect for people with narrow faces, who stand to benefit from it
If I have a normal sized palate but my tongue is too big should I just do SFOT
So to achieve the benefits stated in this vid(mainly functional), you don’t need to split the suture?
A conservative MSE expansion would mean splitting the suture and then expanding only ~4-6mm
I wonder whether an MSE + facemask combination can potentially bring the zygomae forward for better eye-support.
Gotta be careful with facemask cus it only pulls the upper jaw forward. Think about what that means for the lower jaw. Could leave it in the dust.
@@JawHacks Yeah I've seen a lot of speculation about this and the general accepted belief is that the lower jaw just follows but I've always been skeptical. I remember that scientist who did those really cruel experiments on chimpanzees (you know the one) reached the conclusion that the lower jaw can only be brought forward by way of posterior pressure. As whatever device he used merely brought the chimpanzees maxilla forward, causing an open bite like you get from tongue thrusting.
This is why I am glad I didn't get facemask with my MSE, it could've caused more lip strain to keep my mouth closed (which I don't have anymore).
@@AG-uj1cp absolutely. Couldn't have said it better myself. You see it in AGGA patients a lot. The upper front teeth come way forward but the lower doesn't follow. It looks terrible.
@@AG-uj1cp I’m going to give facemask a shot, I am planning to do jaw surgery anyway
@@JawHacks Planning on getting bimaxillary surgery afterwards anyway. What I'm concerned about is whether I can bring the zygomae forward with the facemask.
Ron, will you wear a bonded retainer after your lingual braces are removed?
One more question: if you have an occlusal cant and are going to do MSE but also might do MMA down the line, should you fix the cant orthodontically or wait to see if you can do it surgically?
How does the LOWER jaw expand when the upper jaw expands?
Everybody talks about the suture of the upper jaw and how it can be forced apart and slowly expand the upper jaw. But what about the lower jaw? Everybody tells me that the lower jaw does not have a suture and cannot be expanded. But if you expand the upper jaw then the lower jaw should follow too. So how does this happen? The same goes with mewing... you put your tongue up, and that expands the upper jaw but how on earth does the lower jaw get expanded due to mewing?
Braces. I have Invisalign now
Braces. I have Invisalign now
Braces. I have Invisalign now
Braces. I have Invisalign now
Braces. I have Invisalign now
Would it tighten nasiolabial folds?
But what’s the plan for the mandible?
How much does the surgery cost?
This guy is so articulate and intelligent.
i wanna try this i'm 26 and i have a narrow arch and crooked teeth, my teeth aren't bad but i have no room for my tongue and its bugging me i hope this will work for me...
How'd it go for you? What did you end up doing?
Im being nosey but awhile back you talked about getting into dental school. Are you still on that path?
Great question bro. I was accepted to dental school but decided not to go due to the $500K loan. I was banking on an army HPSP scholarship to pay for it but I was disqualified from the military due to my history of headaches.
@@JawHacks
Okay. Thats sucks. Never realized the qualifications were so strict...
@@src3360 yeah bro, that technical disqualification from the army altered the course of my entire life.
@@JawHacks
You have any new plans?
My bf was in the airforce, was deployed 3 times, I didnt know him then. He has shared some horror stories
@@src3360 I work as a tax preparer presently.
I am on the fence but my palate looks so much worse than anyone's I've seen here so far
Will the MSE work for me if I only have 24 teeth? They removed 4 teeth before braces when I was 12 and then they took out 4 wisdom teeth when I was 20. I’m now 26, and I practice mewing. I don’t have much trouble avoiding mouth breathing but I often use my fingers to open my nose so I’m aware of how much more open my airway could be.
How do I get a consult
Hi bro. Can you please reply to my comment❓️ i want to expand my upper palate. Now my palate is 70% narrow bcz of my wrong massage. Now my face structure totally changed. I didn't like to living in this world. I want to expand my upper palate ❓️ please help me. I am not expert in english. So can you explain in 1 reply❓️❓️❓️
What about EASE?
Can you get palate expander at 44 year old
did you get lower jaw surgery?
Is there a mandibular version of MSE?
Yes it's called MSDO or DAME
@@JawHacksis there a non surgical version of this to bring the lower jaw forward
Are you happy with your results
Yes, breathing is significantly improved, facial profile is more subjective but I thick significant improvement there too (especially in the cheek area).
can 4-6 mm mse help with sleep apnea
Most definitely
Why would anyone be on the fence about losing teeth? As every dentist will tell you, expansion is not for adult.
You look different here from your old videos, not just cheekbones. Why?
Who knows brother. Aging? Two more years of orthodontics? Two more years of Mewing? New camera? New lens? (75mm vs 80mm focal length). All of the above?
@@JawHacks True, thank you!
Thousandth view😎
Nah bruh this isn’t it. I was / am a fence case and DNA changed how my face looks for the way better.
Hey I’m first
First is the worst, second is the best 😉
@@JawHacks im second
lmaoooo me ask
as f*
Can you get a pallet expander at 17 nearly 18?
Yes