Case Neck Tension - Reloading Tool Upgrade - Gauge Pins, Comparator, Micrometer, and Calipers
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- čas přidán 12. 12. 2020
- In this video we discuss some reloading tool upgrades to measure our case neck tension and COAL more accurately. We review the Short Action Customs comparator set, and demonstrate the gauge pin set to more accurately determine the dimension of case necks.
Short Action customs product video: • Modular Headspace Comp...
Neck Tension Playlist: • How Neck Tension and C...
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Excellent! Clickable outline:
0:40 Overview: Headspace Comparator, Mutitoya Digital Calipers,Mutitoya Digital Micrometer, Pin Gauges
2:30 Short Action Custom Headspace Comparator Set for setting case shoulder bump in sizing die setup and measuring CBTO (Cartridge Base To Ogive)
8:28 M2 Minus or Vermont Gauge Pin Gauges for precise measuring case neck inside diameter after sizing/spring-back of brass, precisely measure sizing bushings,
The continuing and interesting saga of neck tension...great videos
Thanks! hope you continue to enjoy them!
Excellent information as well as presentation. I do have one, probably personal tendency, and that is stay away from Aluminum gauges/measures in tooling. I agree the CTE of Aluminum and Cartridge Brass is similar, but the dies inflicting the sizing are normally carbide or steel. Finally, all of our test dials, Calipers as well as 'Mikes' are tool steel tool stainless at half the CTE of aluminum. The temperature ranges should be close to averaging out and in the 'livable' range but, again, I've seen Aluminum Go/No-Go gauges, warmed in the hand, start to drift in the results when checking loaded brass. Above all, as a retired Aerospace Engineer where tolerances can be in the ten-thousandths, I am biased away from Aluminum as a measurement 'standard'. Regards!!!
Damn it. As soon as I ordered the mandrels and dies per your great video you come out with a WAIT THERES MORE! Hopefully the new video next week shows the relation between the mandrels you pick and the actual neck tension you get. Thanks for all you do!
Hi Mike, I wouldn't worry about everything just yet. I just wanted to get the tools to put some better numbers behind the data. I expect to get questions when we start talking about the pin gauge measurements and why some of the cbto values may change. Glad you enjoy the videos.
@@BoltActionReloading I'm of the low budget reloading community lol so everything counts extra but regardless I've learned so much from your videos I've easily saved 3x of the money I would have spent on components because of the info in your videos. Between you, Cortina and JRB we are all in good hands. Looking forward to your findings!
Thanks Mike, Yes I have heard people talk about this and say that this is the best and why. I am hoping to shine some light with my testing to see if there is a universally "best" value or how you find it, hopefully without wasting too much time.
After seeing an improvement in sd/es over my machined Forster sizing die with the 21st C mandrel, and a few pins to check, I've just ordered a Short Action comparator set-up for 22 cal. Hoping for an improvement over the Hornady pieces I'm using. A one thou bump, maybe 1.5, seems to work well in my bolt gun and I have trouble getting consistent measurements now. Time will tell. Good info, as always.
I have the same comparator set it’s an awesome set I like the way the case fits so solid in it I have the bullet comparator also they did change all my old numbers I had measured for my rounds but not that big of a deal I will be looking to get some pin gauges. Thanks for the great video
They are a nice set no doubt. I am really hoping that the pin gauges can provide a clearer picture of spring back and validate my bushing diameters.
Thanks for the information. I will check out the ones you recommended and give them a try.
As a machinist, it is generally excepted that a -210,000s is the acceptable differential between the pin gauge and the diameter of the whole being gaged. Excellent video.
Thanks for sharing the information and video. Good tools for reloading. Hope to see them used in your videos. And the results of using them
Thanks, will do!
Dang I love this content and I’m learning alot thanks
Pin gauge is also good for primer pocket checks. Check after decap and save the whole that primer felt loose step after cleaning and prep.
Super interesting topic! Hoping someday I can afford to geek out over my measurements like this. :)
I am geeking out so hopefully everyone doesn't have to.
@@BoltActionReloading And we appreciate it!!
Very helpful info, thanks. I use the Hornady bullet comparator and headspace gauges, but for a bit better quality went with a very nice stainless Whidden comparator body and the Sinclair projectile inserts, as well as some of their bump gauges. The Sinclair inserts are all stainless steel and have a tiny radius and stabilize the bullet much better IMO. I guess I’d put them in between the Short Action steel and the Hornady aluminum inserts. I also got the Sinclair XL comparator body for loaded rounds, but mostly use the Hornady and Whidden bodies with the Hornady anvil. I’d love to get the entire Short Action set, but can’t justify any more comparator tools over the Sinclair/Whidden/Hornady stuff I already have. Nice to see yours though! I am going to order both the M1 and M2 pin gage sets though, and don’t know how I got by without them for this long. 👍
Great message 👍,you are always a great help,see you soon God bless you.
Glad you enjoy it!
Thanks very much! Great info!
Very welcome!
A follow up on the CBTO measurement difference with the Hornady gauge. I purchased the Hornady® Multi-Purpose Measurement Tool which came with a new set of measurement inserts. I immediately found that the bullet measurements were different between the standard bullet comparator and the new multi-purpose tool. I also notices that the new insert had a much sharper edge on it and it was very close to the .308 bullet size I was checking. It actually looks like there are two steps in the new insert, the .308 and further down a smaller size. No pin gauges in my tool box to check this out.
The problem with the new set is that the sharp edge that contacts the bullet was actually leaving a mark or indentation in the copper. This was causing the measurement to change when you repeated or rotated the bullet in the comparator. I remember seeing 3-5 thousands change. Needless to say, the new inserts are back in the box and not being used!
I wouldn't be afraid to call Hornady to see if this has been addressed somewhere. I haven't used it so I don't know. In the end they are comparators, you get relative measurements but you don't want to be digging into the jackets either.
Did you know that Hornady to an anvil that screws on the other part of the calipers? It makes a huge difference keeping the cases square and when you want/need to rotate them for shoulder and coal measurements. Sorry if you mentioned this already. 🙂
I've been using neck expanding mandrels for quite some time. Something many don't take into account is "spring-back" which will result in additional grip.
I use precision hardened gauge pins. I have a set in .0005 increments which is more than adequate for reloading. Gauge pins have really helped me understand what I actually have verses what I think I have.
Using a .222 mandrel to expand a freshly annealed case I've found spring-back is as much as .001 so the case mouth is close to .221 which gives me a full .003 grip. I've found this to be fine for hunting but I like something closer to .001 total for target shooting.
Is it a bad thing many ask? My answer is always the same; if you're happy with the results then that's all that counts.
Thank you for another great video!
I never thought I’d be jealous over a vernier gauge…….but then here we are! 😂
thank you for doing this
Good video bud!!
Glad you enjoyed it.
Got my short action custom set Nd love it....
Glad you enjoy it. It is very nice for sure.
It seems you can use the same die for different calibers ( 7.62x39 & 303 but with a ball can be used for 308 ) or 7.62x51= 308 ) I understand it mertric & standerd measurement . But could you use 6.5x55 for 6.5x52 or is it to much of a difference .
Good tip
Do you have any issues maintaining concentricity when you use the thinner mandrels to set final neck tension? Do you see any damage to your bullets from the seater plug?
What do you use to anneal? Do you anneal before or after sizing? Do you anneal after every firing?
I have a AMP. I anneal every firing. I always anneal before FL sizing.
Enjoyed you video on the pin gauges. Could you tell me what size I need for a 6. 5 Creedmoor and a .30.30 case.
Thanks.
Hi Bruce,
It truly depends on what you want to use them for. They can be purchased lots of different ways (kits or individually) and I believe in .0005" increments and either plus or minus. The minus will be the marked value with a tolerance of +0 to -.0002" and the plus will be -0 and +.0002" (they are commonly used for go and no go gauges.) I say all this for how closely you want to measure. For 6.5 you may want to measure .263, .262, .261 or depending on your level of OCD in .0005" steps. I originally purchased a kit that had everything from .251 to .500 in .001" steps cause I wanted to measure the ID of my sizing bushings. you just have to know what you want to measure. Also make sure you keep them stored with some type of oil they can rust. Hope this helped.
BAR
The headspace comparator is nice. Is it really worth it over the Hornaday? Or will the average guy not notice a difference?
The short answer is, I don't think its mandatory. I have heard that this is a better design and I don't disagree, but the Hornady has its place and so far it hasn't steered me wrong. What pushed me over the edge is really the dimensions of the bullet comparator being the same as the lands. I want to see how it correlates to different projectiles. For a guy on a budget I think the Hornady is going to work fine, if its crazy better stay tuned to the channel and I'll tell ya. Mostly made this video so everyone knows what's coming up and when I start using the tools in the videos there aren't 1000 questions about what they are. (I can just point to this video.)
BAR
Can you do a full load workup on your favorite caliber.. but do it say 3 times with seperate neck tensions such as 0.001", 0.002" and 0.003".. Then do charge, seating depths and then verify.. see if there is actually a difference in the end on paper or if you just need to do a workup with consistent neck tension? I wonder if you would just end up with seperate charge weights and seating depths but similar results down range in the end.
This the plan to some extent. I haven't loaded it yet cause I can't put it down on paper. As soon as I can define it and then make sure that its valid I plan to run it. One of the bigger issues is components. I can't be changing things in the middle of the test if at all possible. If anybody wants to make suggestions I am willing too listen, but where normally I am not too concerned about component usage, this can get crazy pretty fast.
@@BoltActionReloading was thinking 10 round Satterlee then 3 round groups and then confirmation loads.. yeah would consume some stuff to do...
But.... We know neck tension changes our groups, what we don't know is if it just changes the formula for a small group or if one thing is better than another or as long as we make consistent neck tension in development we are OK...
thanks
You're welcome!
... Do you plan on doing a Bushing shoot-out? RCBS versus Redding versus Hornady? (If I remember right, LE Wilson bushings aren't compatible in the same dies?)
I am not sure at this point. I have a couple different bushings from a couple different manufactures I would hope as long as the dimension are the same there shouldn't be a huge variation in results. I will be doing some more videos on the bushings though! If there is a specific concern that you have let me know and I will see if I can address it in the video,
I should have worded it as "comparison" instead of "shoot-out" because the main thing I would be interested in would seeing which manufacturer may make the "truest" bushing. I've only recently invested into a bushing die, and you can get RCBS's Tungsten Di-Sulfide coated bushings for a fairly affordable ~$15. Redding's Titanium-Nitride $30 option is enough to cause hesitancy. Since I'm working in 8mm, I don't think Hornady offers that size range, and doesn't have any coated options.
I would imagine that they are all trying to be as careful and consistent as they can be when making a precision product, and are only limited by the usual variation of any manufacturing product --- but what was that quote, "In god we trust, all others bring data"?
I like the SAC set up. I’ve been using the hornady tools for years. Is it really worth the upgrade? Anyone else using them?
The SAC setup is nice. I don't think its mandatory, time will tell if the info it provides is any different than I was getting with the Hornady set.. I wanted to try it out and they had a black Friday sale.
@@BoltActionReloading thanks. I really like it. I love using the hornady tool but have often wondered about the aluminum. I really pay attention to headspace and seating depth. I’m guessing you’d consider this a big upgrade without saying anything bad about Hornady?
Just a little question with observation coming from a Mechanical Engineer, trying to learn reloading from a novice viewpoint, if you trying to fit a gage in a hole that is the same size as the gage you have a transitional fit which is at best a press fit situation. So my question is do I want the opening .002 under or .0021 for proper neck tension? When you compare your pin gage to your neck sizer what are the differences in measurement?
Hi Brain, not sure the measurement has to be that accurate. The gauge pins were the most "affordable" way to measure the opening size. If your not Neck Turning (which I would never recommend to a beginner) your going to have that much variance in your neck thickness easily. I just got my amp press so I can going to go over some of these dimensions and ways to get them, show the seating force differences, and then the groups on paper. I think it will help remove some of the mystery why we pick some of the sizing dimension that we do. I just released my new brass version in case you didn't see it: czcams.com/video/aijLm-XRMg0/video.html
Best of Luck,
BAR
At the start of this video, you display an arbor press with pressure gauge...have you reviewed that in your channel? Thanks.
Hi Missy, I have a quick overview here: czcams.com/video/odkvTXzCn7A/video.html
@@BoltActionReloading Thanks! That is my next upgrade...been using an RCBS seating die with my 1972 RCBS JR2 single stage press since the 1980s.
what counts is group size at distance on target. I shoot F class so points count.
At the finish line (where ever that this at this point) is what I want to get too. All this work is just to see how these different variables change the outcome. There are great shooters that seem to use different values but still send up performing at the top. I am interested how all of these interact with each other and how the results change.
@@BoltActionReloading It's been the vane of the shooting sports. it's not the same as they did it during the 30's 50s 80's ect. , but the goal is the same.... keep them in the middle. 10x
If I have a caliber specific set of expander mandrels, like what 21st Century Shooting sells, can they be used as pin gauges to determine neck tension?
I guess it depends how accurate they are, and how accurately you want to measure. If you just want a couple pin gauges they really aren't that expensive. I bought the set so I would have them when I needed them.
@@BoltActionReloading Thanks for the info and prompt reply. And thanks for your informative videos. I'm a long time subscriber. I've been trying to figure out how to determine what the actual neck tension is after FL sizing and using a mandrel to size the neck. It seems that using a Pin Gauge to determine what the neck tension is makes more sense than doing the math and hoping it's right.
Thanks again. Keep the great videos coming.
K+M sells pin a gauge with thier bullet seating mandrel...
Shoulder bump and bullet comparator measurements are all relative measurements anyway, so I'm not sure I understand the need for these upgraded tools. Pin gages, okay, but that's probably a rabbit hole for variables that are going to take an exponential amount of time and effort to account for.
I agree that the comparators may be a bit overkill, but I can't fairly make that judgment without trying them out. The bullet comparator is of particular interest since it should be the same dimensions as the lands. I am interested hot consistent this measurement is between different projectiles. As far as the pin gauges I have got a lot of feedback on the neck tension results about this dimension and how it compares to annealed vs not annealed, etc. I don't plan on measuring every case I reload but it would be nice to accurately know the size of the result of different processes. I have had a couple bushings as well that I questioned the actual dimension that they were because of the brass dimensions after the sizing process. This will remove that question. I don't think these are mandatory for the average reloader, but I am hoping to be able to answer more if the questions that the audience has. You never know what we may find.
BAR
@@BoltActionReloading I like data too, but Cortina's recent videos have blown up my process and I am kind of in that mindset. I dialed in and verified and ran two different bushing sizes for neck tension with 100 bullets. Never done that before. Seating pressure seems to be my biggest variable so far, but it is maybe 10% of my cases that do this. Unturned Peterson annealed each time with a Bench Source, Type S Full die. I'm interested to see the variations you come up with.
Where do you get that pin gage set?
Hi Matt, I thought the link was in the video description.
Why don’t you get a ball gauge to use with the mic to get actual neck tension also to show donut
First one to view the video
No you aren't I was here at 4 seconds but I was listening instead of talking. Smile, just kidding
Oooohhhhhhhhhhhhh cookie time
you Mitutoya caliper model ?
Mine is cd-p6"s I thought it was linked in the description.
@@BoltActionReloading many thanks
Merry Christmas Happy New Year
OH MY GOUD.... You Bad Boy....
I have no idea how you find this stuff..... yeah, maybe it's cause you spend more time at this stuff than I do and .....
well, that's another reason I watch your channel.....
I know what your chasing.... Me as well....
Now I have one more exacting measurement tool that makes me feel that much closer to the absolute...
I guess my efforts and expenditures are better directed here towards precision shooting than they are towards porn, drugs and other illicit activities....
But hey bro, that's just me....
I just wanna put multiple separate shots of bullets accurately in the same target hole.....
...and the government wants to tell me what kind of tool to use to do that....
...and I really want to use a 115 mm Howitzer......
Thanks bro...
.0005 is five tenths
Except it's. 00005
@@BoltActionReloading Isn't .00005 ....50 millionths ?
@@jeffreyweekley6974 From right of the decimal…tenths, hundredths, thousandths, ten thousandths, hundred thousandths, millionths…