A Billionaire’s Blueprint For Building Bullet Trains
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- čas přidán 27. 05. 2024
- Wes Edens has broken ground on Brightline West, his $12 billion Las Vegas-to-SoCal railway, aided by billions from the Biden Administration. But building more high-speed lines like this one won’t be easy.
Under a blazing morning Las Vegas sun, billionaire Wes Edens and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg threw a party this week to mark the start of construction of Brightline West, the first private high-speed railway in the U.S., driving yellow spikes into a section of track.
Now comes the hard part. The $12 billion project is three years behind his original schedule - delayed by the pandemic and final environmental approvals - but if construction goes as fast as the billionaire cofounder of Fortress Investment Group promises, it'll open in time to speed travelers across the desert at 200 miles per hour from Sin City to Southern California in time for the 2028 Los Angeles Olympics.
“The timeline is both realistic and achievable,” Edens told Forbes. “The impact of this is going to be long-lasting and prodigious. And I want it to be successful because I want the next one and the next one and the next one to happen.”
Read the full story on Forbes: www.forbes.com/sites/alanohns...
0:00 Introduction
2:34 The Las Vegas Area Bullet Train And The Olympics
3:24 The Bullet Train Is Nearing Completion
6:15 Brightline West Is The First Private High-Speed Railway In The US
9:23 What Is The Next Project For Brightline?
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The amount of rail infrastructure being built in LA plus the brightline gives me such hope for rail in the US.
It's mostly funded by democrats
Its funny.The U.S was made by the Railroad but one of the last ones to have a bullet train. Gives me hope to.
The worse climate change gets, the faster the US will get high speed rail, cause at some point, It'll be cheaper to invest in preventing climate damage, than to repair it.
@@_bones562Let's hope it really happens!
That's because we have planes lol
economic benefit would be enormous for both cities.
Plus the new city being build around the second airport near Primm.
Lol people from LA aren't driving 2 hours to get to a train for another 2 hr train ride then no car when they get there
@@scottg8660 as far as I know the train in LV empties at the strip and the other side empties out near the Metro station in LA. For tourists it'll make more sense as Metro connects to the main areas of LA but for business and people who live in the area it'd be a bit more of a pain.
I really hope y'all Americans get to experience the High Speed Rail (HSR) in America, as a Spaniard I am very proud to say that Spain has the second largest HSR network in the world after China, and let me tell you something, doing more than 500 Km or 310 Miles in less than 2 and a half hours is amazing and impresive, once you do it you won't stop.
Greetings from Spain! Can't wait to see it done🤞
Renfe is collaborating with several hsr agencies in north Merida so I think Spanish influence in construction and operation is bound to happen here in the US which is soo exciting!
The British settlers have been very kind to spanish settlers in latin america
Unfortunately as American, one can look to other train rides in the US and know that the cost of riding the rail will never compare with what it does in Europe, which will ultimately be what stunts any growth.
@@Mike__B it’s just a question of can we build more rail… the more we build the lower the costs. This is unlike anything the US has seen before with the exception of the acela.
Needs to be in public hands not private.
As a Las Vegas local I’m super excited for this!
Super excited, like you can't sleep because you're so super excited!!!!!😂😂😂
Don't forget democrats made it happen
@@htown148stop bringing politics into everything PLEASE
don’t be cause each ticket gonna be 400$😭
@jimmyjohn6479 bringing into everything? It was PAID FOR by dems. If they hadn't given them money the project wouldn't happen. Youre delusional
This is a milestone for America. I can only imagine the possibilities. So much potential for Brightline and maybe low-cost budget rail companies like they have in Europe.
It's only happening cuz feds paid for it aka biden
Late is better than never 👍👏
It still hasn't been finished yet, Brother. Well, if it doesn't get finished, I wonder if we can make them finish it.
The best time to plant a tree was yesterday. The second best time is today. Or however else the quote goes😅
We are only 60 years late! Japan's first bullet train line is celebrating its 60th Anniversary this year! But hopefully we will finally get a real bullet train in the states with Brightline to Vegas.. Maybe this will finally get CAHSR the support it needs to finish too someday.
@@hotrail8295 I agree 👍
@@MrJuvefrankProbably. They were on budget/time with the Miami-Orlando Brightline so I'm hopeful.
Wonderful. God bless America. 🎉🎉🎉
#separationofchurchandstate 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Compare to chinas megaproject😂china has 140 000km railways & speed of 500km per hour.😂mind blowing.
what's with people from the US and god 😂do so many of you guys really belive in that stupid fairytale?
@@gellewarsame5424china has bigger highways than USA
@@p__jaya lot of private companies build high speed trains and usa needs a private company building high speed trains
We need so many more billionaires like this
4 years is quite ambitious for America. Amtrak has been testing its new Avelia liberty trains for a few years now and it is still not in service. Hopefully Brightline will pull it off.
We also need a highspeed rail from Portland to Seattle and all the way to Vancouver BC.
I’ll give the new Alstom Avelia trains the benefit of the doubt cause they’ve gone on record to blame the teething problems with those train sets due to the old age factor of the Northeast Corridor itself. Those trains are too damn good for that mega railway.
But if those train sets are as good as they claim to be Brightline should simply buy a similar product from Alstom. It would the create a base line Bullet Train set standard for the U.S.
Extending it to Eugene would be nice.
Seimens won't drop the ball in the same way that Alstom has
partly due to bureaucracy but im sure brightline w this private equity has less bloat
@@procrastinatingpuma Alstom didn't drop the ball.... 2 in my family work for Siemens, and they only have good things to say about Alstom. They are relieved of having dodged the Acela bullet and not having to do what's Alstom has to do. They say that what's being asked of Alstom with the new FRA requirements and state of the NEC is close to being mission impossible. Entirely modeling the wheel - track interface on such a motley crew of different tracks not built to European high-speed standards is an impossible herculean task of dubious interest or relevance. It's like trying to model chaos with perfect accuracy...
On proper track this would have been long solved.
Godspeed to all involved in this project!
The LA to Vegas high speed rail makes total sense.
Connect LA to Phoenix
@@kumarv1219 That would be a smart play to tap off the Brightline. That stupid California line from LA to SF feels like it'll never get done. But if it does, having transfer stations for Vegas and Phoenix would be sweet.
Soon we'll have 40 lane interstates and it still won't be enough for traffic. We need high speed rail!
1 more. trust me bro 1 more
funny because traffic isn’t an issue on most interstates outside of urban areas
@@me-it9jn And only 20% of Americans actually live in what's considered rural
Bright Line commuters in SE Florida are upset because their 40 one way ticket trip commuter cost is going from $399 to $1400 for about a 100 mile round trip between W. Palm Beach and Ft Lauderdale. The same trip on the NY Long Island Rail Road unlimited monthly pass runs about $300 for comparison.
Well, Vancouver - Seattle definitely makes sense, do this route next.
Honestly Portland, seattle, and Vancouver would benefit for this. the MLS would benefit from this
WELCOME TO BULLET TRAIN FAMILY.......AMERICANS.
Where have you been all these past decades ?????
They've been fighting the car lobby directly and indirectly.
Spending all the money on wars 😏. That's where.
Because USA needs private companies building trains just like Japan
Americas that youngest sibling, in high speed rail terms, in the family thats born after everyone else is graduated and off to college😂
Americas that youngest sibling, in high speed rail terms, in the family thats born after everyone else is graduated and off to college😂
Great Job Pete Buttigieg! Great Job Wes Edens. You are looking at a future rider, I love trains and traveling and I am a Las Vegas Transplant from LA and I do this trip every year by plan to Ontario airport and then hop on the metro rail. takes me all the way to la and gives me a birds eye view of the city. I love trains. Best part is that I won't have to go through the TSA check lines, x-ray asault and baggage limits.. I hate that part. I hope they can keep that cost down to something everyone can afford with kids and family a high price can get expensive..
Way to go Wes! GO BRIGHTLINE!!
So happy high speed rail is coming to America!! More projects like this are needed, Vancouver, Canada to Portland via Seattle and in Texas from Dallas to Houston would be great and take cars off roads!
Great news.
I hope we get a nation wide high speed rail network by 2050.
This particular project aiming to complete in just four years is amazing. We need to speed up greenlighting such infrastructure projects.
Can we finally get the Acela up to speed? What a ridic thing that as?
Lol, not going to happen
Great job. For $12billion. Imagine what $90 billion could build if it wasn't going towards wars. There're much better "job programs" than constantly building weapons.
California has spend almost 90 billion and have nothing to show for it.
Unfortunately public infrastructure doesn't make shareholders money.
War policy/propagandas is most dangerous thing & waste of money/time for US right now.
I always want California High-Speed Rail in California and Brightline West and I always love California High-Speed Rail in California and Brightline West.😮
A spark of hope for rail
I think the biggest thing which will determine its success is ticket price. It should be cheaper than driving a car and that’s because in this economy many will choose to drive over take the train depending on the cost. If they drive they have more money to spend in Vegas. Your average car nowadays is getting around 40 mpg give or take (some Toyotas get 60 mpg and some other cars get 20 mpg). The distance between Las Vegas strip and Rancho Cucamonga is around 225 miles. At a price of $5 per gallon it would cost one person about $28.13 to travel from LA to Vegas. But also remember that a lot of people don’t go alone. So adding one more person and assuming they split the cost of gas that comes out to $14.06 per person. Therefore, I think a good pricing range would be $20 to $25 for basic seats and if brightline wants to install larger seats with more leg room like the green cars in japan they can maybe charge $50 per seat. The difference between japan and America is that in japan many people don’t own cars and trains are a common way of life over there. Here it’s not common and it’s a hurdle of getting people to start using it. Start with low pricing having a slogan of “for the price of a combo meal you can go to Las Vegas” they could win over many consumers. It may take longer to recoup the cost of building the rail, but it’d be better than many people who don’t use it at all and eventually the product ends up dying. The other reasons bullet trains are so successful is that they are easily accessible by other trains. People can easily get to the train via other transportation. For this route parking better be free until there is an LA subway system that can take them to the station or else that would also inhibit ridership in the long run. I hope they thought this all through, because many companies don’t and end up losing the entire business because they’re too greedy in the beginning and want to recoup the cost immediately. If the product is good and the overall cost is lower than people simply driving this will be a success. If not people will still drive
20 to 25 dollars for a high speed train ticket to Las Vegas? The French people have a cliche: "But you're dreaming." Anything cheap is never good, and anything good is never cheap.
You worded perfectly. As a Vegas local I hope it’s successful but feel like it will fail. I read rumors tickets will be $200-$400. That itself will be a major turnoff, as you stated. Plus, the train won’t drop you off at the Las Vegas strip. You’ll need to take a bus there which can add another 30-40 min to your commute. Even more time if you’re staying in Downtown Vegas. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how it goes. I will definitely try to ride it once for the experience.
German railways used to have a 'beautiful weekend ' ticket at a flat rate for four or five passengers to fill trains during that quiet time. So variable pricing is smart.
I don’t think it should be quite as high as the rumors say, $200-$400, I mean yea I agree that would be a massive turn off. $20 would probably be way too cheap though, I think like a $50-$60 ticket would probably be fine. I haven’t done any math to figure that out, just what I’d be willing to pay. The convenience can also make it worth it for a consumer. Comparing it to gas prices makes a lot of sense, in many aspects I think that’s how fare should be calculated… also though that fails to account for all other operating costs. The average operating cost of a car is $0.72/mile, which changes perspective drastically. Fares are often much cheaper than that on per mile basis. People also probably would more than likely decide strictly off the price compared to gas though instead of all other operating costs.
@@emiliocarver2061You make a good point. Part of Brightline’s marketing is that they offer conveniences that cars cannot. Some complain about their expensive ticket prices, but the company is able to argue that the consumer is getting more bang for their buck. For instance, rail riders don’t have to be stuck behind the wheel, they get food, they get to skip traffic, they get to work, they get to watch a movie, etc. It is for this reason that higher ticket prices could be justified. People may be willing to pay for a ticket that’s around $50-$100 if that means getting several dozen commodities not available via driving (these prices are similar to that of Brightline’s existing service, not including special discounts).
This is what we want billionaires to do. Give us INFRASTRUCTURE! Give us BUILDINGS! Give us SOMETHING!
The government should provide the infrastructure. That's their responsibility.
@@ichheieferit agreed on theory, but the US has always built its infra as public-private partnerships. Even the transcontinental railroad was done this way, as well as the US highway system. The question is just one of proportionality between the two sides, and I rather we get something rather than nothing.
@@ichheieferit…and watch the government bungle it.
@@ichheieferit in Communism only
You mean steal tax money for failures
About time the US catches up to the rest of the developed world
Why don’t you mention China !
Try catching up to the developing world first, you know, like China!
Does Australia and Canada counts?
Shoutout Pete! Hope we see him as the next rail president :D
I'm not sure he will run again. He has children now. MAGA haters certainly don't like that. Who knows how many threats he's gotten?
Chicago to STL would be awesome
Progress to some degree. When ppl have exposure to the rest of the world, you realize at times what we don't have here that is possible such as high speed rail.
Europe is way ahead of us with high speed rail!
@@The-Traveler-And-Wandererparts of Asia as well.
Lol, this is America.
I heard, about it back in 2013 while, working in Fresno!! Awesome!!
Oh yeah !!! So happy to hear the news❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉😊😊😊
Good on them for derisking it.
Seems things only get done in this country when a billionaire is involved. Politicians hardly ever initiate big changes. Hopefully one day a billionaire will care about creating walkable cities for everyone to enjoy...
Need more of this!
from downtown LA train station it is 1 hr 20 min by light rail to rancho or 1 hr by car...then connection time and getting to the down town train station.
Once they get it up and running, if the demand increases (which it most likely will) they can re zone for right of way to expand bright line into LA proper.
The problem is, nobody lives in downtown LA. They live in south bay, san fernando valley, orange county, etc. but not many in downtown LA. If you tell someone who wants to go to LV that to go car free they need to take a train to downtown, transfer at union to another train to rancho cucamonga, then finally get on this train, they are going to get in the car and drive instead of putting up with the change of train garbage.
It’s a start. Plus one can drive to Rancho to take the train and will be faster than dealing with traffic on I-15, plus one gets to relax on the way there and back.
@@jeffe_77 That’s what they anticipate. Brightline West is planning to build a massive parking structure to allow people to park and ride.
I hear that when CAHSR builds to LA Union, they will be sharing the line into LA Union. Rancho is just the temporary terminus until CAHSR finishes building
MOST freeway corridors can EASILY have rail on it, even if not high speed, and no right of way to acquire. Every freeway either has a large median to build it in, or plenty of frontage space on the sides. So let's get it done. No excuses. And freeways should be running local trains too for inner city transit, may not be the most optimal, but it is still better than having none at all. Lets. Get. it. done and stop sending stupid money to other countries!
I need a high speed rail goin from Boston to DC in less than 5 hours😡
Yes!!!!!!!!
That's a LOT of good news! Doing well by doing good! I like that🙂
At the proposed $400 a one-way ticket, I'm not convinced that they'll have a capacity problem at all.
Been living in Las Vegas for 20 years . Happy to see this project underway . China builds 5 to 8 high speed rails every month . China doesn’t spend trillions on wars . China loves China . Idk if America can say the same thing .
Yes and yeah of course California High-Speed Rail in California and Brightline West.😮
Fantastic!
Excellent news!! 🙌🏼👍🏻
Connecting Vancouver, Seattle, and Portland would be dope. I can’t wait to see what Beightline does in NV/CA
CA govt has talked about this since the 90s
We need one from the IE to Phoenix AZ
A billionaire with a vision and the desire to invest in manufacturing and infrastructure….how refreshing !
Brightline should also take over the ill-fated Texas Central railway project too!
Amtrak has recently taken over the project and is taking it forward. You should go look into it. It is too much to say in this comment. The texas central project has real potential to become a reality.
@@StefanWithTrains3222I doubt when the government is running the show.
Good luck Brightline! Even though I am not a fan of Secretary Pete I congratulate him on the effort. I hope Texas is the next on the like.
I truly support this project, but it will not be done in 4 years. The US doesn't have experiences with HSR. So maybe in 10 years?! Also, Brightline has never owned a HSR train.
I hope it gets done as planned and I hope this project becomes a model of sorts for how to build High Speed Rail in America both efficiently and affordably... Then hopefully extensions to Phoenix, Salt Lake as was originally planned by the precursor company to Brightline West...
Just look at NY. Rails are not affordable. Once you're trapped they have all the control.
This project is very unique because Brightline didn't start from scratch, and they don't have to buy the ROW for the vast majority of the route. The EIR were mostly cleared before Brightline picked up the project. It was originally done by a different company and Brighline simply updated it. EIR clearance can take several years for a project this size.
The vast majority of ROW already exists and is being leased from both states. Brightline won't own the ROW along the 15 highway.
Lastly, much of the route will be single tracked, which makes no sense for best speeds and frequencies but saves a lot of time and money.
So, no, there aren't other HSR projects as readily buildable.
@@NancyK-cu6xjWhat NY rails? Amtrak? Metro?
We also need Richmond, VA to D.C. It's a 30 minute, 3 hour long car drive, but a high speed diesel line, or some commuter train, should cut the trip in half, by only making it an hour and a half. With stops being downtown Richmond, Ashland, Fredericksburg/Spotsylvania, NOVA stops, and then D.C
This would be absolutely awesome
It will take 10 years and cost 40 billion.
Privately funded projects rarely have costs overruns. I think you're referring to the California high-speed rail project that's WAAAAY over budget.
Let's do this!!!!!
Brightline is awesome here in Florida
One of the few places it actually makes sense. But it's going to be interesting to see how they deal with the phenomena of animal migration, etc.
It rides along in the middle of the freeway median, the 15 Freeway that already exist, so it's obvsiously not a problem since that giant freeway already is there
@@ScrewyDriverTheMan This is a great 'advertisement' opportunity, as people putt away in their cars seeing others cruise by on a luxurious train.
@@stelliosbonadurer359 Not much of an advert when people realise it's not an efficient way to travel for most in this region with all the time wasted
@@ScrewyDriverTheManWhy is it? Trains seem to be faster than cars over that distance. What are they not saying?
@@ScrewyDriverTheMan I'm confused. Are you stating that train travel is not an efficient way to travel in this region or driving isn't?
This is not a train project. It's a massive real estate project that's hooked together by a train paid for by the government. The train part will lose money and become an afterthought. The real money is being made on parcels like the 100 acres in Vegas which is a huge multi use project with a casino, retail, residential, etc.
About time.
The future is here people, and it is as bright as ever.
Awesome. Perhaps they can find a way to make the Texas HSR a reality
I’m loving brightline more than Amtrak hope it can expand more
God I love when Pete talks
Pothole Pete ?
How is the Northeast Corridor not the very first place in the United States to get this... let alone to not even be listed as a next place to build one of these?! There's massive ridership. There's already a passenger rail culture. You have the population density necessary for commercial success and serious time savings. It's desperately needed to alleviate traffic with no space left to widen highways. The right-of-way corridors already exist; you would only need to acquire land for higher radius turns. It must be too costly for a commercial venture fund itself, I suppose.
Money. Land is expensive there and technically it is high speed as soon as the new tilting trains get up and running
Also there are plans to get the corridors speed up to 145/160mph on most of the corridor.
The terrain between DC and Boston has always been a problem wrt allowing the Acela to run as fast as it should have.
Also they need to make it a real express. These stops only: Boston, NYC, Phila, DC.
If the Alstom trains weren't nightmares they'd have several sets that go 160MPH, pretty close to the 186 for true HSR back in 2015.
Look! Business and government working together to bring a solution to citizens!
In order for ANY type of railway to be remotely feasible in this country, we would have to redesign almost EVERY aspect of our cities and the public transit system in each. Since I'm fairly certain that's not going to happen let's just call a pipedream a pipedream.
Bring it to Utah!!
Now they just need to finish the California High Speed Rail!
Probably would've been finished by now if Brightline had constructed it.
Bout time, just get Japanese engineers over for a visit,they are the authority in bullet trains.
Wow! I like the idea, but Japanese engineers are expensive.
The first bullet train, Japan’s Shinkansen, was opened in time for the Tokyo Olympics in 1964.
Ah let's educate American engineers!
@@robertewalt7789We can use google too. 😅
The Japanese have already been working in the US to build high-speed from Houston to Dallas.
This is a great thing for the US. I'm so glad the Biden administration is helping push American infrastructure forward.
Finally a billionaire actually building things and not just looking to suck the wealth out of everyone else.
I don’t like many Billionaires but I like him
crazy how a private company moves 10 years faster than CA state for building high speed rail. Almost like giving the government your money is a waste.
The L.A. station isn't located in downtown Los Angeles and the Vegas station is south of the airport.. That's a HUGE miss..
You can take the bus up the strip. I wouldn't be surprised if they build another train from that station to the center of the strip
@@OneManOnFire Bus rapid Transit or a light rail from the station and the total length of the strip would be amazing
They can also develop around the station as well. That would be cool
True, but we can't let perfect be the enemy of good
@@julianreymus1721 this is very true. Hopefully this good example will motivate other City pairs to make great train service
@@julianreymus1721say it again for those in the back.
They encourage you to not drive once you get to Vegas so makes sense. And just ride share to any events off the strip
Could save millions of gallons of gas a year of driving back and forward esp if they add shipping carts to transport merch lol
I just love Pete!
Need to get Orlando connected to Tampa. That would be three huge Metro areas all connected by rail. Just throw it on the I-4 corridor
Los Angeles to Las Vegas high speed railway will be an outstanding success, I have no doubt about that. The distance between the two cities makes travelling by air and road too insufficient. The success of LA-LV high speed railway will spur and inspire other cities. The US doesn't need to copy and paste what Europe. China or Japan does with respect of its high speed railways. Having cluster of city pairs of high speed railway is appropriate for US needs as Buttigieg alluded to. The US is a continent, high speed rail connecting Los Angeles to New York, or Seattle to Miami isn't realistic or needed. But clusters of city pairs like Los Angeles-San Diego-Las Vegas-Dallas, San Antonio/Austin-Houston, New York-Boston, Milwaukee-Chicago-Detroit, Atlanta-Charlotte, Cleveland-Columbus, etc. are more realistic and there is a demand for alternatives to air and road travel between the aforementioned cities.
Step 1: Make sure the project is paid for itself which doesn't include the train, in Florida they did it with real estate speculation.
Step 2: Try to get someone else to pay for it. They got a chunk of money from the feds if memory serves.
It isn't. Already took billions from the taxpayers.
Desperately hoping for the PNW corridor to be next🙏🏽 although the Texas triangle seems like the closer bet😅
Vancouver to Seattle to Portland to Sacramento to the Bay to L.A to S.D to T.J to Encenada.
as a taxpayer, I want a percent of any profits from that private business
Can we get one to Chicago to Detroit to Toronto
Hi, there, It's difficult to get one from Los Angeles to San Francisco. It's a shorter line, and it lost favor if not fell out of favor. You're not alone though, people have been hoping for that for decades. It takes a person who wants to finish it more than he wants money. People like that are difficult to find these days.
Hoping they also make bullet trains in the northeast corridor because Acela is not that fast. The northeast could use it to go from NY to Florida. Noe imagine if they would have used money that Hyperloop wasted down the drain to instead use proven technologies.
I always want California High-Speed Rail in California and I always love California High-Speed Rail in California.😮
I wish Cebu Island have a bullet train system.
This project will easily run 50+ billion. The 200mph speeds will only be on 10% of the line.
when you majored in literature but your day job is coming up with catchy video titles
It's mostly desert between both cities or most of that until nearer LA
Get the government to pay for it
United States is the best country in the world,salute USA forever by every american and by every person in the world.
time will tell.
Terrific 👍🎉
All we need is last mile transportation. For example local buses that can and will get you to the place tou need to go
The Las Vegas deuce bus route runs to the brightline station st past Fremont st. That's 95% of LV.
The guy: “Having President Biden ride it before the end of his second term” 😂 so bad they switch the scene right after. I wanted to see Pete Buttigieg’s reaction LOL
There was some awkwardness when he said it 😂
A billionaire's recipe for building a railway. Get billions in public subsidies lol.
These tickets better be below $100 bucks each roundtrip
8:41 Please make this happen, Caltrans
I urge all of the passenger rail activists to look at the enormous cost of European and Japanese high-speed rail projects, as well as the massive environmental impact. These numbers have never been examined. Then look at Spain's AVE system, which has been built at enormous expense both financially and environmentally, and has the lowest ridership in all of Europe. The Japanese Shinkansen is always presented as a great success yet its enormous cost had a highly detrimental impact on the whole country. Meanwhile the Florida Brightline is relatively new but already is losing boatloads of money.
I hope Bright Line keeps their finances seperate so that if one line goes down it doesant take the other line down with it .
THANK GOD this is at least partially private funded. Maybe this will actually get done, unlike LA-SF.