The IMPOSSIBLE Turn 500FT - Engine FAILURE on Takeoff! (it's not impossible)
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
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0:00- Intro
0:15- take off
1:00- Impossible turn demo
1:55- The debate
3:00- Testing 20% bank angle
3:50- Testing 60% bank angle
5:02- Other important factors
5:42- back on the ground (why it works)
6:50- AOA and load factor
7:28- why we teach that it's impossible
13:16- sidenotes
16:12- takeaway
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Keep in mind this is not a recommendation, just sharing knowledge with others of what this particular aircraft can do under the right circumstances. While the way to lose the least amount of altitude when reversing course 180 degrees is actually far more aggressive than this (maneuvering closer to critical AOA and using nearly 90 degrees of bank while pulling back more on the controls), we chose to use the control inputs shown here as that is what felt comfortable at the time to still be able to execute the maneuver with the given energy in the aircraft. What is shown here leaves little room for error, but executing the maneuver with more bank and more pitch would leave even less room for error, and in this particular case only leave us higher above the runway that we were already able to reach.
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-Jon - Auta a dopravní prostředky
You won me over with this video. Hands down, you are the best CFI on CZcams, anyone that puts their money where their mouth is and talks to me with truth, will ultimately make me a better aviator. I’m signing up
You are an idiot. Please, do not fly without a qualified pilot in the left seat.
same
Eric Taylor what?
@@steveokenivo3256 He is praising this person for telling the "truth" about the impossible turn.
Thing is, the video is a lie, not the advise "do not try to make this turn."
While obviously not technically impossible (it can be done) it is a very difficult thing to do, and if you do it wrong, you die.
@@erictaylor5462 I'm no aviator, so there's that. But I do not fully understand what you are saying. Are you saying that the maneuver in the vid is possible, but the chances of success are so remote as to make the maneuver attempt not worth the potential risk? Correct?
Most important words in this video "Stall speed increases due to load factor not bank angle". Keep that nose pointed down, do not pull back on the stick and keep the wing flying. I have known this for a long time. It is good to hear someone who understands this well speak about it. Great video.
He never said pitch the nose down, in fact he said pitch for best glide. So what does a 60 degree bank pitched for best glide look like in a Bearhawk compared to a Skyhawk?
As long as your nose is below the horizon you wont be loading the wings in a steep bank... you know how many CFI's argued that stall is directly related to bank angle though!!
I’d rather have higher than “best glide speed” when my plane does the 60 degrees turn 😛!
My instructor used to show me slip to land while turning base to final and at approach speed (1.3Vso). This always made me very uneasy as I was taught that bank angle increases stall speed and slip is un-coordinated flight which turns stall into spin. But he says you are OK because you are nose down descending. I still don't want to try it when I am doing base to final by myself as I don't want to gamble my life to find out if he's right.
@@ZhihengCao Dont pull back too much. Thats it.. Keep the nose low on a low bank. Anyway 45 degree angle is the best way. Dont do 60..
Just finished a webinar via EAA. Four instructors who have studied this very hard made the point that this is type-specific and that there are a lot of variables including engine power available, climb angle, gross weight, runway length and glide performance, density altitude and wind. They are working on software that will analyze all those parameters on an airport by airport basis and suggest possibilities for different paths back to an airport, or a potential off-field landing site. The first example they used was based on one experiments one of them had made with a Piper Cherokee 140. Since that airplane, in those conditions, could not climb steeper than it could glide, the conclusion was that it DID NOT MATTER how high it climbed, it could not get back to the takeoff runway. In fact, the higher it climbed, the further from the runway it would land because it was also flying further from the runway and the clime/glide deficit just got worse. A Bearhawk with a fair amount of extra power is in a lot better shape for the turn back maneuver. Recording of the webinar is available on the EAA website.
I figured this out...when I was 14! All these stupid YT videos are done in light, high performance STOL aircraft. Now try it at 5000 ft fully loaded, with SAT of +25!
Agreed, and I find it rather irresponsible to encourage people to try this turn. Better land somewhere else upwind… and if your engine quits at 500 feet or even 200 feet, you already know what your options are for an emergency landing, right? If not, why not?
The trick is not being afraid to put the nose down. Airspeed is life.
Exactly; And that is what freaks out some guys. They get all panicky finding themselves having to glide turn 45 deg. bank with nose down and no engine to go around and save them anymore. Cowards.. Im a CFI of EFATO 4 kinds..
@@outwiththem hey, you Vic.. still teaching??
Engine out, yoke forward...
@@FishmanDanCo engine down, Nose Down !!..
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 .. not much lately. Covid afraid.. Are you back in the saddle again.. Or still on the motorcycle??
A few other things to take into account:
- Pulling the throttle to idle isn't a perfect representation of an engine failure. At idle the engine's still creating some power - if it's really dead the prop is either windmilling or stopped, and either way it's sucking out the energy you need to manage. So if you're practicing this, make sure you have some extra margin - if you're barely making it with throttle at idle, you won't make it with a dead engine.
- The wisdom of trying the Improbable Turn will depend on your other options. If you've got nothing but flat fields and straight roads off the end of your runway, trying to turn back at 500ft AGL is NOT your best option. If you're in a crowded residential area full of trees, houses, and twisting roads, it could be. Know your surroundings and evaluate your options BEFORE you even get in the plane.
- Those extra turns after the 180 to line up with the runway are obviously important if you're practicing, but they're less important in a real emergency. If you're in a real emergency landing on flat, open ground next to the runway, landing on a (vacant!) taxiway, or a runway excursion into open ground are all acceptable options - anything you can walk away from! Once the engine's dead, the insurance company owns the aircraft, so focus on saving yourself, not taking extra risks for the perfect landing!
im not a pilot (other than RC airplanes, but that doesnt count) but it seems to me like if the engine is idling, it wouldnt rob you of as much energy, because its not robbing airspeed to turn the engine over.. being an auto mechanic for most of my life, i know very well how much energy it takes to turn a dead motor over, fighting against compression, and that energy has to come from somewhere if the prop is "windmilling", which im guessing means the air moving over the prop is turning the engine, sort of like pop-starting a stickshift car.. so, thinking about it in this sense, it would be much more efficient if the engine was idling (like coasting in neutral, or with the clutch pressed) than if the engine was completely dead (coasting in gear with the ignition off in a car)
@@colinsouthern There is a lot of BS about that from guys that did that test on an LSA with Vglide of 60 mph or less. Those will stop the prop by itself because most fixed props will stop by 60-65 mph. So for them at say 55-60 Mph Vglide the stopped prop they is better because that is the factory Vglide they are using anyway. If they use a faster Vglide it will make prop spin, and glide faster and sharper angle. But that is the wrong way on that airplane.
Now, take an airplane with a 70 plus mph Vglide. If you try to slow down to 60 to stop the prop, you are under Vglide speed, and too close to stalling speed. You will drop at worse angle than at your Vglide, because you are under the Vglide speed. Too many tried to stop the prop, and stalled the airplane on a real emergency.
Specially at low altitude, you pull up more elevator than needed, when under stress.. and that is how so many stall at 200 or 100 agl.. And die.. Im a CFI for a while..
Thank you for spelling that out in a positive intelligent way. All you’ve said it true.
This actually happened to me while training. Early eighties around 650 ft on climb out, in a C152. Ahead was swamp and bush terrain, to the west was high, hilly terrain, to the east were suburbs. I did a 180 at around 35 to 40 degrees bank and lost around 350 ft. I was scolded for "dropping out of the sky" but it seemed I had no safe options considering I had perfect landing available just behind me. Thanks for the validation after so many years
A week ago I had to do that for real. I took off and at around 80-100 m AGL I heard a loud explosion in front of me and lost engine power. I immediately pushed the nose down and started the (right) turn back. I pushed the right pedal but it was a lot stiffer, looked around and a voice in my head just said I'm too low and it's going to be in the farmland below. I turned left to be on centerline again because to the right there is a building. In front was some farmland followed by a line of 2m trees. In the end I did a slow 50 deg right turn to get to the best spot to put it down. The land below was very soft and I expected to break the NLG and get inverted. Can't remember the flare and touch down, but obviously it was very smooth as the plane was standing on its wheels. I immediately turned the key off and rushed out. It turned out that one of the composite blades had blown off. When I went back I saw that the rudder was hanging only on the lower bolt and control cables. The upper hinge had separated from the tail. I've been lucky it didn't shear off completely. We towed the plane to the hangar, put another prop and the engine worked perfectly. 3 days later she was flying again.
Why I tried the improbable turn? Because I was sure I was going to make it. I have 60 hours in a weight shift trike and 80 in ultralights. Out of them 30% were cross country. The else were engine out practice either after take off or somewhere around the circuit. I can turn the trike and get to the centerline from 60-70m and the plane from 100m (~300 ft). This time it is good I didn't continue the turn back as there was a problem with the rudder and I was going to end up 90 deg right of the centerline and facing a building. After all the practice before, I didn't think about the nose down as the engine quit. It was a simultaneous reaction. I've trained my muscle memory to act as soon as the engine changes its noise. And that helped me. The nose was already going down while I was enjoying the "Oh f@&k" moment. It took me no more than 2 sec to start the turn back. Additionally as I felt that there is a problem with the rudder, I was afraid to bank enough (opposed to what I normally did during my practice) to make the turn tight.
I was flying a Fly Synthesis Storch. Its stall speed is 40 mph.
Excuse my English as it's not my native language.
Grrreat.. Well done. Practice pays later. I had a video of someone with a passenger on a trike doing a turnback from about 400 agl and landing tailwind very well. I do them on airplanes. Im a CFI in UsA..
Wow. Glad you made it safely. Good flying. BTW your English is fine.
I have related this with a Gryder video.
I was given a ride in a 95hp PA-11 by a friend from Phillips Field in Fairbanks AK in 1971. The engine quit on climb out- I figured we were 350 to 400 ft agl. My friend performed a perfectly coordinated 180 and landed back on the runway. It all happened so fast and I didn’t argue with Danny because I knew there was no time. I would have landed on the railroad tracks parallel to the runway. I knew that we would never had completed the 180 in my Aeronca Champ- that PA-11 was a beautiful flying airplane and we were light (out of fuel). I never rode with my friend Danny again! I recall hearing the wind singing thru the aileron cables- something you don’t hear when the engine is running. Bottom line I survived a 180 after a power plant failure but it was not my choice!
“I point the AC in a direction that is safe”
“I point the gun in a direction that is safe”
Great metaphor and worth remembering
I've made the "impossible turn" from 600' AGL when a plug blew out. Had plenty of room to spare. I became a "stick" at the airport that day.
That sounds pretty crazy!
@@fly8ma.comflighttraining199 it really wasn't that bad.
@@mattbasford6299 It really only takes your brain to allow you to return. And you do not have to make the perfect landing. But the Airport give you a lot of open land. The runway is just an option at this point. The Airport is the Target.
@@ctsteve1967 Exactly!! You hit the nail on its head!! There are tons of options: taxiways, other runways (if available), the grassy areas and so on!
Greg Plaka aim small, miss small
What is absolutely critical to pulling this off is pushing the nose down right after engine failure. If the loss of power is a surprise to the pilot and he or she keeps the nose up while trying to figure out what is going on, critical energy and airspeed is lost, decreasing the chance to return to the airport every second that passes. When airspeed is conserved by an immediate nose down maneuver, the 180 is quite plausible. Great job demonstrating this!
Its more than a 180, after the 180 you have to go to the runway and align to it too, like 250 to 270 total degrees of turning, depending on the crosswinds.
Getting back to the "Runway Environment" should be the goal (but don't pass up a nice flat field!). The Runway Environment offers flat surface, paved runways, (maybe a crosswind rwy), grass surface (practice soft field landings!), and maybe most critical, people with radios (tower, pilots) and perhaps a hotline to the CFR trucks and emer services. CFR doesn't have to hunt for you in a neighborhood, they can go straight to the airfield and drive ACROSS the airfield if needed. Time is critical.
I did an impossible turn during my flight review. The runway is about a mile long. Because this was the first time trying it and my instructor didn't really give me a heads up, I don't know the altitude, but it was somewhere between 500 and 1000 ft. I had watched this video a while back and decided to put it into practice. I banked the plane way over. My eyes were outside, so I don't know the bank angle. I also pushed the nose over to make sure I had plenty of speed. By the time I got it around, I was super high and pretty close to the runway. I had to add all my flaps and even slip the plane to get it to come down to land. It was super satisfying and a good skill to learn. Thanks for this video.
Awesome video. Lots to think about. It's probably better to turn into the direction of a crosswind regardless of normal pattern direction to let the wind blow you back to the runway to minimize those 2 30-45 degree turns to line up with the runway.
Are you suggesting more headwind in order to increase effective airflow over wings and thus make the turn more efficient leading to less drifting away from the alignment of the landing strip?
Just trying to understand the physics here.
Super happy to have you be busting this myth and opening up the conversation that better training (exploring the edges of the flight envelope with students) can make them safer/better pilots.
Better and more efficient training is key here!
Hey Jon. Started out with your online ground school and aced my written before I started training. Then after 2 check ride reschedules, a letter of discontinuance due to 40kt winds, another weather reschedule, a tornado cruising through town destroying everything, I finally finished and passed my checkride in one of the only 172's left in Nashville lol. Cheers man. Will be signing up for the instrument course soon.
Everyone's journey is different lol so glad it worked out for you though. Stay safe over there!
Raspysquares RIP Tune
thats awesome
What?? And no volcanos too?? Congrats..LOL..
I had a 40 year airline career, began flying 52 years ago, have 28,000 hours, now own a Cherokee six. This is a fabulous explanation of a return-to-the airport, via the “impossible turn”. Thanks, I’ll keep this in my knowledge bank! Davethejetjockey
I was lucky to have an instructor like him. That training has Also saved two aircraft.
Thousands of Turnbacks To Opposite Runway" have saved thousands of airplanes and pilots. Thousands. The ones that crash are the only ones most people remember, not the good ones. I know about 5 airplanes saved from crashing outside the airport using "Initial Climb Turnback Maneuvers".
Whooo hoooo....Sharkys’s! 4 months until my house is done. Fantastic video. This is a conversation i never had during primary flight training. I truly appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us.
I regularly practice these with my instructor. They arent impossible. With strong gusty winds it may be improbable. I can do them easily in a stock 172 if I have 500 agl and I'm straight ahead. I have done them from 300 ago if I'm already turned on the crosswind leg. Every pilot in any airplane should know the limits of their aircraft and what it can do. Grab a qualified instructor and get out and sweat!! Too many people get into a comfort zone and stay there. Never progressing their skills. Go out there with a instructor and get your money's worth. If you ain't sweating, you're not learning ANYTHING!! Keep the good vids coming, I appreciate your work and effort!!
No Pain, No Gain. Just like at the gym. Lets not be lazy or coward pilots..
The important point, as you said, is to overcome the tendency to pull on the yoke in high degree banking angles in order to not increase the load factor.
Great video.
And to quote Han Solo "Of course its dangerous, that's what makes it fun!!" Just kidding, its actually a safe maneuver, just let the nose drop through to maintain airspeed, airspeed is life!!
@@josepirl1 - I do those Question Mark Turns on different airplanes since I learned them in 1994. But I try not to go to 60 degrees. Why? because 45 degrees is the best median between lift and turn ratio. Of course, never pull a lot on a no power steep turn. The ones that do that are the ones that avoided practicing accelerated stalls and know nothing about them.
Just make sure you find an instructor that ISN'T sweating when you're sweating 😂
Two words,..
“Energy Management”
Excellent vid!
Keep up the great work
This is great. Back with my instructor many many years ago taught me that when I hit downwind I killed the throttle, then to base, then final. He taught this way because with that practice when I would end up without an engine it would be a normal landing for me. He told me I wouldn't test that way with the FAA examiner. Practice what you can do with an aircraft and little will surprise a you.
I used to teach "Turning to leg engine outs". Best kind of practice for engine fails on every leg of traffic pattern. Traffic Pattern has 5 legs. All of those 5 "Leg Turning Engine Outs" are different.
Please know your plane, its limits, and your limits first! How I almost ended up in tall trees.
Some years ago, I bought a Piper Colt. I had about thirty hours in it, and I felt very comfortable in this simple and forgiving plane. One day a friend and I decided to visit a private, one-way only airfield, with a substantial hill at the north side of its 1800 grass strip, and a moderate incline. We went in his Cessna 182, and the trip was uneventful.
I loved this airstrip so much that I planned to return soon. I listened to the other pilots and their advice. "There is a frequent wind shear at the beginning of the runway, so come a bit higher and faster, and you will be fine."
Friend, and I, decided to fly out one day to this fine airstrip, so there we went. I called the owner for permission and to chase the gees away from the runway. We arrived after about 20 minutes of flight, and I made an observation over-flight. No gees, so all was clear for us to come in.
As recommended by the pros, I came a bit higher and carried about 5 knots extra airspeed. With the excess airspeed and about 10 knots of tailwind, we were coming in hot. The runway disappearing rapidly behind me. With about 200 feet of the runway left, I forced the plane to the ground. I pulled back the yoke just in time to save my nose wheel, hitting the ground firmly with the mains. Thank you Piper for the forgiveness designed into the Colt to save fools like me.
No, we didn’t end up in the trees; fortunately, there was a very bumpy 400 feet dog-leg-shaped overrun that save us that day from leaving my wings in between the tall trees.
I got my advice from well-meaning Cessna drivers with planes sporting flaps, which the Colt does not have. As a previous driver of planes with flaps, I didn’t practice slips much in my Colt, so I did my best to save the day with the tools I had. You can bet that I dedicated my next full four hours to learning to slip into tight places, both with and without power.
Why this long story? Expert advice can be useful but know your plane, its limits, and your personal limits before applying it to your situation.
Also Colts use a higher approach speed than most cessnas. They are not short field machines..
I soloed on a Colt. 80 mph approaches.. Not a short field airplane.. Careful..
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
I now have about 300 hours in my Colt and I absolutely love it. I installed vortex generators and I can now safely slow down to 45 knots. Since my incident described earlier, virtually all my approaches are idle power, coming in high, and slipping it all the way down to a safe altitude, with just enough energy left to touch down within a few feet of intended spot. I love going to unusual destinations, river sandbars, beaches, and one way in/out airfields. Sure, I have to fly the plane accordingly, but this is one very forgiving plane. If I want to make a nice smooth landing at my home airport CZBB, I come in with a bit of power. Long time ago I was documenting the improvements to my Colt in a blog. If you are interested, check it out. www.c-GDNR.com
Great video. I loved how you explained that the stall speed increases in a high bank because of Load Factor and not a decrease in the vertical lift component. I think it’s really important that pilots understand that their plane can stall in any attitude or configuring if the AOA/load factor gets to high.
Airspeed will also decrease quicker with the amount of load applied as its traded for the change in attitude
This video helped me a lot, not just in regards to the subject of the impossible turn, but just in general, giving a better understanding on turns / load factor. Made me a lot more confident in the pattern.
Well how about them Apples! :-) What happens??? You ... PUSH! Forward! And land the plane. :-) What happens if you are NOT in a STOL aircraft though?
That was my thought too.
You are supposed to know what your airplane can and cannot do on EFATO. Some airplanes need 1,500 agl for this turnback to opposite runway. Pilatus PC12 train that way.
That was such a great COMMON sense approach to SMART flying. Flying is initially taught and learned by rote, but downstream pilots have got to become better pilots. I always find it amazing to hear how many new pilots or non-pilots refer to the 'spin' as the 'death spiral'. Well, it's the same thing thing that you've presented here. It's about knowing your plane, understanding the physics and practicing. So I have just over 500 hundred hours in many types of airplanes, from C150 to Navy jets, carrier qualified and own an RV-8. I have never even considered that 180 turn to the airport. And what a great illustration that a pilot should always be learning. What you talked about makes absolute sense. My next practice session I will get myself at 3 or 4 thousand and practice those bank angles, get my prop feathered, get my glide speed, be aware of the loading and track my altitude loss. Bottom line: That tip was Spot-On and is now in my Book of Knowledge
Just a note on turns at low altitudes in the event of engine failure. You are right when you say, 'Know your aircraft'. I have been flying for 50 years and have seen death and remarkable flying from WW11 pilots through to new pilots. In reference to turns at low altitudes, it's instinctive to return to the runway immediately. You must decide within SECONDS what must be the right decision You must as you say know your aircraft, especially the load you are carrying. If you are flying a 'butterfly', the chances of returning are great, however, if you are at 1000ft and flying a heavy' brick', you would be best to do a dead stick ahead. I have simulated an engine failure on fully loaded passengers and fuel on a Cherokee Six at a thousand feet It turned out the plane dropped like a brick. I hold licenses in gliders/, ultralight. /GA all sorts of aircraft. I'm conscience of the agility of all, with emphasis on the gross weights. KEYWORDS: AGILITY/WEIGHT /WIND
Amazing! My instructor showed me it in my very first emergency training and I'm very happy to see another instructors talking about that.
"Is our jobs to make our students taking a educated decision" - there is no better way to build a safer aviation.
Thanks for sharing.
don't pull back stick while on the deep bank. thank you so much
Straight ahead - aggressive no power stall - kick full left rudder - half turn - recovery. Loss 100 feet - perfect alignment with end of runway. of course if you lack the proper skill you might damage the airplane - bigly.
@@johnwhitehead5457 I'd rather land straight ahead than plunge into the ground trying to do your maneuver.
@@johnwhitehead5457 Prove it. Let me see you doing 3 spin entries at 500 agl and land with a tailwind after that. PROVE IT..!!!
@@mathieuclement8011 That's easy for a renter to say. When you're the owner, it's your baby, and you might be willing to sacrifice your life for her. Plowing in is 100 certitude of destruction of your baby. The renter says as he hands the keys back to the deshoveled FBO and says, wow that was close, I'm gonna go get another drink at the tavern. Anybody else in?
@@johnwhitehead5457 No, it's easy for a former owner to say. The instant you initiate a crash, you mentally hand the keys to your insurance company. Then you get yourself down safely, and congratulate your insurance on the mangled airplane they just bought and thank them for the check they gave you to replace it. Your mentality is dangerous, and I only hope you don't take innocent people with you if it actually gets you killed.
As a retired engineer and a CFIG, I have some experience here and I’ve also done the math: in gliding flight, in order to complete a turn with minimum energy loss (i.e., minimum loss of altitude for any given constant airspeed), the optimum bank angle is 42° of bank. It doesn’t matter what you’re flying or whether the prop is turning. You can argue that it’s better to make an even steeper bank to reduce the amount of extra turning required to get back on the runway centerline; that’s true, but it’s hard to calculate. As a rule of thumb, I used to teach my rope break students to turn *into the crosswind* (if a crosswind is present this is crucial), in a 45° bank, at minimum sink speed or slightly above: that minimizes the cross-track distance you have to make up to get back on the runway centerline after completing the 180 and it gives you a lower ground speed if you have to abandon the reversal and land somewhere other than the runway.
exactly, energy management, you throw it out the window once you increase the load factor past a 45 degree bank, Plus the critical AOA goes up drastically.
To opposite runway is a Question Mark Turn, not a 180.
@5feetgoaround fullflapsC150 Of course, and that’s what I alluded to when mentioning the cross-track distance you need to make up after completing a 180° turn: it’s an additional S turn that can be minimized by making the initial turn back to the runway INTO a crosswind and not AWAY from it.
@@SteveZimmermannPhotography -Right. This kind of Question Mark shaped turnback have killed many that dont know it when doing GRM over a spot and they want to turnback to that point after flying over it. You need to fly away from the spot about 2,000 feet away BEFORE STARTING the 45 degree bank to reverse the course and flyover that spot again. They stall it when flying away less distance, then a too sudden tight steep turn to align is needed and an accelerated stall is done. Even ATP's die that way. Most USA flight schools never teach those 2 kinds of GRM Turnbacks. They dont know them either. They should teach them instead of those useless S turns over a road.
Better practice the 2 kind of turnbacks over a road with power on and you select a spot on a road etc. A spot where to finish it. Level Altitude Question Mark Turnback To A Point I call that maneuver. Better use the Vglide for the level turnbacks too. Too fast or too slow is problems.
After learning them level, then you do them descending power off to the point on road too. Those are GRM Turnbacks to a point on road. Better learn them on GRM, then on initial climb at a planned well airport. Better learn them right. They can bite yours if you think you know them well and you them wrong, specially without power on initial climb turnbacks.
This is the best analysis of the “1000 ft” turn controversy I have seen on CZcams.. As a 50 year plus flight instructor and aerobatic competitor I can only say that aerobatic training incorporated into pilot certification could be a key element in saving many lives in these situations. One point to make here is that your lightly loaded AC was a good example. A Cessna 208 would have been a different story in decision making.
Good work! Keep it up!
My pleasure, Thanks! Glad you'd like it
This video definitely makes GA more human ... Awesome information!
Great video, I fully agree with your views. The "impossible turn" can be the safest option depending on the situation
Its called not "The Probable Turn".. Its not impossible if you know when and how to do it..
Wow. I hadn't thought about the bank angle like that. Thanks for the lesson. I need to get up to altitude and see what it does on my Cessna 210 and then decide what my procedure will be taking off from now on.
This video just taught me something new that might save my life one day, and convinced me to subscribe. Look forward to learning more.
Great video! I attended a pilot proficiency course specific to the aircraft I purchased (Comanche PA24-250) and when the CFII asked "what you like to do/learn in your new plane?" The first words out of my mouth were "the impossible turn!" He said, "ok, lets GO!" Awesome experience and with some practice became less intimidated...not to suggest over confident but understood how my plane flys and its limitations. Your vid was a great reminder for me to work this back into my practice routine...I'll admit its been too long! Thanks!
This makes me think of a few lessons my CFI gave me. We practiced the "impossible turn" at 800 ft. There is a significant mental load to execute the maneuver while simultaneously running through the start and shutdown checklists. A novice pilot should not attempt these without some significant practice. No one should attempt a 60 degree, power off, turn at low altitude without practicing first at an altitude to safely recover from a stall.
Other thoughts brought up in this video...
Regarding setting down a safe place in front of you, you should think about where this will before you take-off.
Regarding the take-off at "shark beach", never further over water than you can glide back to shore if you don't have to. Similarly, don't fly into mountains with no escape to a safe landing zone if it can be avoided.
To the degree possible, these critical decisions should be worked out on the ground.
Do it first on sim. 45 degree banks is the best, not 60 degrees.
Thank you from a CFI here.
Happy to help!!
You just got a big fan! I’ve done this maneuver on my ppl training and once I posted a video of me doing it on a Facebook group and people were shocked, laughing at me and saying that one day my CFI would kill us both. I just ignored those comments because I knew it’s “danger” maneuver, but possible if you have the skills, proficiency and confidence just like you said. This is the best video ever on explaining that maneuver.
Do you still have the video?! Would like to see how deep the nose goes down in a cessna (I have assumed that you fly C172 by your channel)
Marco Fonseca Hey Marco, I need to look for it but I’m sure I have it. Btw, are you Brazilian?
Marco Fonseca Marco, achei o vídeo aqui. Me add no Facebook que eu envio para vc. Procura como Eduardo Grillo.
My instructor also has us do them to prove it’s impossible at our airport with short runways. But the first day we did it there was a good headwind and we easily returned 😂. We did it again on a calm day and it was much harder and we would’ve ended up in the trees outside the fence
@@Alex-us2vw No good on short runways unless you have some crosswind. but no more than 12 knots.. I teach them for years those turnbacks..
Or spend some time learning how gliders (sailplanes) fly, where having no engine is normal.
But no engine sounds sooo dangerous! Lol
Little bit different game though in a 40:1 glide ratio sailplane vs a hersey bar Cherokee.
@@1krr For sure. But it's still great experience to get learning pilots used to the concept of no engine. Once they get their subconscious used to that, they can easily adjust for a steeper glide ratio.
@@1krr well if you are used to gliding maybe you can transfer that to the brick glider?
@@kurttappe Yeah I agree though I'd say get up on the airplane you are flying and pull the power. I think the biggest problem is no one does it once they get their private and when it does hit the fan, they have to think through things they should have kept trained up enough to be instinctual. I do get up periodically in my Cherokee near a not busy airport and run scenarios sometimes taking it all the way down to the runway.
Thanks Jon, exceptional VLOG. Probably your Best yet.
It's much appreciated!
John C. Eckalbar goes into great detail about this in "Flying High Performance Singles and Twins."
He does the math: the optimum angle of bank for all airplanes is 45 degrees.
Use a speed slightly slower than the best glide distance speed in your handbook.
The closer you fly to the stall speed at a 45 degree angle bank, the less distance you cover, and the more you tighten the turn radius.
Add whatever margin of safety you need to keep from ending up as a smoking hole in the ground.
you sir, are a gentlemen and a scholar absolutely love your videos, as a student pilot i feel you are filling many large voids in my training regime. Youre saving lives.
Absolutely fantastic video! You are employing the same tactics as a crop duster would use in a button hook turn around....just without the power. It does work! I have played with this in a Champ and our Piet and as long as you don't load up the g's and keep the stick forward it can work.
Back in the late 1970s my Commercial instructor --- a fine pilot, later a career airline pilot -- and I discussed this and he was of the opinion that our training aircraft could return to land after a power loss after takeoff at 500 feet. Our airplane was, as I remember, a Piper Arrow. I flew it to 500 feet, he pulled the throttle back and as instructed I immediately rolled into a 60 degree bank turn back toward the runway. We wouldn't have (quite) made it but could have safely made it to the taxiway.
A recent issue of EAA's "Sport Aviation" analayzes this thoroughly. It's possible all right, depending on aircraft, loading, etc, but in general not a good idea.
Why it is a better idea to crash on houses and cars than land at airport?? I teach that maneuver. It is not for coward pilots. That unplanned steep turn Turnback practice is no good. You do it first on sim, then at alt., then at airport..
@@outwiththem Hey Harold, remember 60 degrees only if nose really down. otherwise 45 degrees only. The lower the speed, the level the wings have to be. Anddont pull back in panic never..
Awesome Video Jon,,
We should call you the (myth buster)!! Thanks for the insight with knowledge behind you!!🤠👍👍
We should call him, the "Aviation Whisperer" 😂...
Great video. Just made me a subscriber. Lots of great information. You’ve also shown how useful an AOA indicator can be. Helps to appreciate load not bank angle.The one thing I would add is maybe before going up and practicing these turns at a safe altitude that the student review spin recovery for his particular type of airplane. Just in case it’s nice to know how to get out of that situation. I’m a Bonanza driver and I’m going up tomorrow to practice those steep turns.
This video will make anyone a better pilot. The interpretation of the ac and the aim is perfection. Thanks for the great content.
Wish I lived near you so I could have you as an instructor. Key factor is nose down enough to maintain lift. Airspeed maintained no stall no spin. Tried this at safe altitude and it works.
Another thing to mention is to turn into wind (where possible). This means the wind will push you towards the runway, rather than further away (this is what we are taught with glider rope-break 180s)
Hey Jon, thanks for another fantastic video, really appreciated! This is why I liked the idea of the "pre-takeoff briefing" so much which is mentioned in FAA's airplane flying handbook and also in many good videos out there. At my "home base", there's plenty of fields around so I normally say... in case of engine failure and not enough runway available, there are enough fields in the area to try and make a safe forced landing. However, I will fly to other places soon and I need to know the area and know what is safe to do at which point. This video is VERY valuable for exactly this fact. If I can try to provide some honest feedback, I did feel the part where you mention other CFI's are perpetuating this "myth" because they don't know any better... maybe you could just have said that they are afraid their students will attempt the maneuver without the necessary skills and are just trying to protect them. It felt like you were taking a dump on other CFI's without a real need here. Anyway, just trying to provide some honest feedback. Also, watching the video it makes me hold my breath, that final right turn to the runway, it feels that your wing tip gets awfully close to the ground. Does it bother you at all? Cheers!!
This is an excellent video and you did a good job couching the message. One really crucial aspect is just aircraft type. This will vary widely and for that reason getting out and doing air work to set your personal numbers for pre-takeoff briefing is not just a good idea but crucial.
I’ve done this a hundred times on my simulator but am anxious to try real world in the plane. Not the best answer every time, but I agree for the sake of argument it can be done.
Find a brave CFI. Dont accept excuses not to learn all emergency maneuvers..
Practice it at altitude. It is much safer and at the very least, you will have the mechanics down if it ever occurs.
@@mikekopf1173 - At altitude you wont get all thoses sensations of low altitude maneuvering that can make you make mistakes. Pilots need to do all kind of emergencies at airports too, not only at altitude fake take off emergency practice.
Loved the firearm to aircraft comparison! Super super relevant!
tell that to the gun haters
@@ctsteve1967 you can't tell those people anything...
@@Jonnydeerhunter can't shoot 'em either.
@@slickrock1371
Didn't have any interest
Greg Plaka Not a fan of guns but I thought it was a reasonable reference?
Fly8MA is hands down the most insightful instructor I have come across. There are many videos out there perpetuating dangerous advice, such as having to push down on the controls to feel negative G's etc.. Steep coordinated banks are not dangerous. What kills people are uncoordinated turns with high load factors.
All pilots should know "A Possible Turn" from An Impossible Turn". I have a formula for small singles Turnback Maneuver. The 777 Turnback Rule. I taught aerobatics and 2 kinds of turnbacks in my 1990's CFI years. 4 kinds of EFATO and partial power too.
For heavier singles i have The 999 Turnback Rule for heavier singles. Use this formula i used about a hundred times to teach EFATO Turnbacks when CFI. It works well. I have 3 engine fails on take off on Cherokee 180 and all i landed back with no damages ever.
FOR TOTAL ENGINE FAIL Use the 777 EFATO Turnback Rule for light singles. The 999 rule is for heavy singles.
The 777 rule can be done even when on preflight or driving to airport. Will I be able to climb over 700 fpm? Yes? Are the winds over 7 knots? Yes? Then mark the altimeter to 700 agl for EFATO turnback.
THE 777 TURNBACK RULE NO POWER- FOR LIGHT SINGLES.
Between me and my 1990's students we had to do 4 turnbacks due bird strikes, loose engine cowls an engine problems on take off. 4 airplanes saved i know.
iGNORANCE of TurnbackS is not the solution, IGNORANCE is the problem.
And this is the situation where many accidents with crop dusters happen, a high bank turn at low speeds.
Jon, great video.. My home airport is KPVF in California. You may have even flown into it. It sits at 2580 MSL on top of a small mountain and people joke and say it’s like an aircraft carrier. 4000ft runway and nothing but trees and few houses all the way around. We have one small clearing to the south at a lower elevation then the airport, but it’s very, very tight with 50’ trees all around. In the past I practiced the turn with a CFI during my BFR at 1000 and we easily made the runway. I have practiced this turn in my Luscombe at altitude several times just in case I ever need it. This isa perfect example of an airport without many options and the possible need for the skill set you present here. Hopefully I never need to use it. Keep up the great content.
Nice job with making sure to practice!
thank you so much for that video, i am a student ( 80 hrs ) with an up coming check ride, and have practiced this with my CFI at just under 500 AGL in a 172 and was accomplished easily, i was concerned because our runway 5 at our airport ( KWVL ) maine, has no option to land ahead.. i would always climb out at VX to a safe altitude then VY ... i have watched hours of your videos and learned so much !! thanks again for all you offer...
One of your best videos. Great info. Definitely something worth applying and practicing up at 5000 ft.
I'm a glider pilot and our procedures consist of below 200 land straight ahead, then above 200 make the 180 In a steep bank
Its not a 180-It is like a ? shape. Around 270 total degrees of turn. 180 + 45 +45. Only if you turned towards a big crosswind your degrees of turning will be less due crosswind will make the turn less radious and then that crosswind will help push you towards runway- requiring less turning. In a strong crosswind, You might have to turn 225 degrees total more or less.
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC yea, I get what ya say, just kinda simplifying it
Its The Question Mark Turnback. It is shaped like a ?. I taught them for years.
Also a glider pilot. To expand on Matthew's note. Pre-takeoff glider checklist includes: Note density altitude, wind direction, speed. 1. Turn into crosswind for straight in return. 2. What is density altitude today & effect on performance? How far will I be if rope breaks/power fails at 200 feet? If calm high density altitude day u may be 1/2 way to Timbuktu before usual "decision altitude"; & that changes plan. If cool weather & headwind @ sea level you may be at decision altitude quickly. 3. Make return altitude decision before take off, & at reaching altitude say it out loud e.g. "250 feet agl". 4. At loss of power or rope break release tow rope (if glider, obviously) & get the nose down to maintain speed. 5. Execute with steep coordinated bank .6. Maintain safe speed. Know your aircraft's glide ratio and best L/D speed. Practice at safe altitudes frequently.
@@davidglosser6301 Exactly about the density altitude details. That is why I post on all these videos that if you are climbing at shallow angle for any reason, even from 1,000 feet agl, you better dont try to Turnback to airport area unless you still have level altitude power at least. You will be too far out when you hit the 1,000 feet mark. Unless some power, dont turn back.
In 1998 one of my former student with about 80 hours total had a partial power engine failure on take off at only 300 agl. His instrument CFI (I moved away from that area) wanted to keep going forward and make a sharp 90 degree turn into a truck congested highway and crash land there.
He said, forget about that, I know what to do. He did as we practiced a year before. A 45 degree bank into the crosswind at Vglide or slighly under, Full flaps to land tailwind. He landed tailwind with no damages while the CFii screaming, NO, NO, NOOOOO!! The so called expert CFii was very ashamed after the landing was safe. He went away from that airport.
I was laughing at the event when he told me. 300 agl is my minimum altitude for any turnback to opposite runway IF power over 1,500 rpm. I know about 4 airplanes I saved from crashing forward by doing Turnbacks to Opposite the right way.
Excellent video. Wish my instructor would have taught me this. 👍🇺🇸✈️❤️
He pushed to my check ride at 40.2 hours.....I did not know better at the time the injustice at the time.
Happy to hear this helped ya then
Very well stated! The added & emphasized perspective of thinking “safe” as a PIC lends oneself to better evaluate training required to make the better decision if & when required. Coordinated/controlled steep turns should be a muscle memory manure we all need to have in our tool bag. Promptly (immediate) making the right decision & taking action will make the difference between good-bad consequence. Now I need to practice & improve my steep turns.
Coordinated and controlled is the key!
Hot damn, I wish I could find an instructor out here with that type of understanding. I've watched this video some time ago and and I've had CFI's laugh at me for wanting to do this maneuver before I did a solo, saying exactly that, it is impossible.
That is "The Question Mark Turnback". It is shaped like a ? . The period is where you want to finish it and touch down. A CFI taught me that turnback in 1994 on a short wing Cherokee. I had to use it in 1997 due fuel pressure problems. Landed with 10 knot tailwind with some crosswinds. Saved me from crashing on houses. Initial Climb Turnbacks with winds are easier to do. You have to climb at over 800 feet per minute or good angle of climb. We practiced at 2k over a straight country road of around 4,000' long to sim our 4k runway. Practice the Question Mark Turnback. This is another tool on your "Emergency Maneuvers Toolbox" that can save you later.
Very good I am glad you were able to put your skills to work. Great Job. If you can reply do you think you would have as good of a job landing with our your prier Training?
@@ctsteve1967- No way I could have done "A Turnback Turn" with no training on it, about 10 CFI's and examiners i had, all only told me to crash forward only. Many hours of cruise emergency training I had, BUT NONE on EFATO. Just crash forward, and never turn back BS from around 10 CFI"s i had flown with in 10 years and 300 plus hours.
I had over 300 hours from many flights schools due I moved and I had my PPL with instrumens and multi engine license too for over 10 years. My job took me many places where i rented after taking checkouts. Many checkouts from many flight schools, in northeast USA and Midwest USA. None taught me EFATO. Bunch of coward CFI's all over i noticed after EFATO training in 1994.
I could have been one of the many that could had a EFATO partial power at 600 agl, kept going forward due didnt know Turbacks To Opposite Runway, and crash on houses outside the airport. Partial Power ? are easy from 600 agl. But dont do it, my 10 previous CFI's told me. Yeah, crash in those houses will be easier?
From the 1970's, to the millenium, forced landings on take off and during "The Initial Climb" where required to be taught by all USA CFI's BEFORE SOLO. But none taught me that. Why not? BECAUSE THEY DIDNT KNOW those forced landings I noticed in 1994. All schools ignored them until last few years. There are basically 4 kinds I learned. 2 partial and total power loss at around 30 feet and land in front. (4,500 feet to do that). That is "The 30 feet RTO". Then 2 on initial climb; The partial power kind at 500 agl (?). Then no power (? turn) at 600-700 feet agl depending on winds and weight.
@@ctsteve1967 Hundreds of "Initial Climb Turnbacks" like in this video are done each year and saving pilots and airplanes by landing back on runway instead of outside the airport. BUT ONLY the crashed ones are published by the media or FAA. If the pilot did it wrong and crashed, they blame the maneuver instead of the Lazy Coward that tried something he refused to practice well before. This maneuver is a great tool.
That gives these needed maneuvers a non deserved "Impossible Turn" status for pilots that dont know them. Dont pay attention to the talkers, listen to the doers only. In aviation, and most dangerous things there are talkers that just like to lie to you because they cannot do.
But now they call it also "The Probable Turnback". It is impossible if too low, or too flat climb away from the airport. Practice them with some power on first on simulator. They are also useful if hit IFR on initial climb and you need to come down to VFR and land on opposite runway instead of going around the airport on too low downwind leg..
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC Ohhh you.. here.. still kicking around.. LOL.. Im Jay C.. new channel.
wow, very thought provoking, reasonable and informative. Thanks
Happy to help! Keeping informed is crucial
Gene C exactly
Love your channel! Keep up the good work!
Thanks, I appreciate it!!
Wow, always did this standard takeoff briefing, "rotate speed, how much flaps, if engine failure on takeoff roll, power idle and apply brakes, if engine failure after rotate with remaining runway, pitch down apply brakes, without remaining runway, under 1,000 feet, shallow turn left and land in field, above 1,000 land in the opposite threshold. Never had an engine failure, but always thought if my engine failed under 1,000 feet, I would end up in a field.
I just passed private check ride, so I guess I will practice this at high altitude.
Learned a lot from your channel, great video! Thanks
Bat Man so do I, I just passed my Pvt and I will practice that.
For the ones that say that this is a 2 passenger airplane, My CFi of 1995 taught these Turnbacks to opposite to me in 1995 on a Cherokee 140 4 seater, short wings. He used to teach power on and power off Turnbacks on all kinds of cherokees, from 150 to 260 hp. And Piper Tomahawks. Cessna 150,152, 172 and 182. Grumman AA5's and more during his CFI years of 1990's.
Short wing cherokees were a bit marginal.
He used to put a blue line on the Vglide speed. And a small suction cup on altimeter marking the minimum turnback altitude for that specific take off. With power for most airplanes it was 400 agl. No power was depending on weight and winds. 3 of his former students saved by Turnback Training as far as I know. No accidents ever teaching them.
Hey, victor.. See the links I posted above for Airliners practicing Turnbacks from 2,500 agl after take off and safely landing back at opposite runway. B737, A320 and even a B777 doing Turnbacks to opposite and landing safely..
That’s why I love FLY8MA. You keep it real and to the point, thanks for giving us real knowledge.
At 22, with about 230 total flying hours, I had a mechanic on board a C-150 that was running rough for the owner. After taxiing out, we did an extensive pre departure run up, but could not get it to miss out. A couple of quick runs down the runway with a lift off and then setting back down on the runway did nothing. We decide to do a take off, and yep, as soon as we passed the end of the runway, not only did the engine stumble, the prop stopped. Ahead of us was a mobile home park, and for some odd reason, I turned to "Art" and said calmly.."We are not going to die!"
I remembered the phrase "land straight ahead, do not turn back to the airport" Of course, I totally ignored that voice in my head and made that 180 turn. All I kept saying to myself, was "Keep that nose down, so you do not stall" I managed to get us back on the runway and land with no incident.....47 years later, I am still not sure which one of us was more surprised that I accomplished that!
Elevator position is directly indicative of AOA no matter your bank angle or airspeed. Fantastic video!
Thank you for this video: it really is something CFIs should talk about openly.
There are however a few points I would like to raise. Different aircraft will need dramatically different height, it should be thus important to practice it in free air to understand the peculiarities of the aircraft you are flying. Here I should stress, 180° will not cut it: as you correctly pointed out you need 270° with space to spare, thus at a bare minimum look how much you loose after 360°.
However there is one variable which has not been mentioned: pressure altitude. You made it easily in 500ft. In a hot day on a high airfield you might have crashed. It is important to factor that in and decide the decision height BEFORE roll-up.
The next part is load factor and drag (fluidodyamics are my daily bread). Load factor increases exponentially after 60° bank. At 45° it is just about 1.4G. Incidentally this is, for most aircraft, the sweet spot beyond which drag/rate of turn peak. While it is true that you can have high bank with no increase in load, you cannot have a turn without an increase in load. Thus in order to maximize the rate of turn at minimum height loss you should bank about 45° ad then increase load (carefully) up to almost stall while maintaining IAS at about 1.5 VS.
Sounds complicated but one afternoon of practice with plenty of height to spare will make it almost instinctive.
The bank angle/load figures you quote are for constant altitude/level turns , right? At least that’s what the FAA FTH says .
But what about descending ( or climbing for that matter ) turns , because that’s what’s under discussion here ?
@@davidwhite8633 That's something people always miss when talking about bank angles and load factors. I can pull a 90deg bank angle at 2G no problem, making all the 360's I want, I'm just losing lots of altitude to do it. The books will tell you a 90deg bank angle would require a near infinite load factor, however. Once you take out the constant altitude part out of the equation, load factor goes out the window.
In gliders, (we pulled the release to simulate a rope break) we could do them at 200 ft. I always had my students do one or two before I soloed them. If they skidded the turn or failed to do it at at least 45 degrees they had to do it again. Lower the nose, not too much speed though or the 180 is too big. 45-55 degrees to do it quickly, the longer it takes the more attitude you will loose. Practice them at 2000 agl and simulate the ground is at 1500.
Did this on surface tow and aerotow in hang gliders. The same principle applies when I fly GA. Stuff the nose.
I was surprised on my rope tow break that the glider had an excess of speed ( despite everyone saying push the nose down ). I actually did a slight climbing turn with extra energy. Of couse then I had to deal with a 30 kt tailwind.
@@christheother9088 Yeah right. 30 knot Tailwind. Bet it was 10 knots. Anyway thanks for the post about your Turnback to opposite..
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 LOL it was blowing...the other flight instructors were white as a sheet when we landed and one was clutching his chest.
@@christheother9088 Brave guy. Some are born pilots. Some are born to drive only..
Great video man! I tried these this weekend at 500 AGL, in a Cherokee 180, on a 4500ft runway. Did three, made 2. I also learned something else about taking off. I was taking off with with 2 notches of flaps all the time, I’m based at a short field. I took off with no flaps and never realized how much faster the climb comes VS letting the airspeed build up to 80-85 a few feet off the ground. Now I’m going to practice taking off with one notch at my home field and see how that feels. Again thanks for the content you put out!!
Thank you for not just teaching the theory, but demonstrating how it CAN be done.
Great video Jon. I really would have love to see you doing this maneuver in the Cherokee 140. I tried once at altitude with an experienced instructor and we lost about 350 ft with a 45 degree turn.
140's are heavier than the LSA on this video. And 140's have a short wing too. With say a 10 knot headwind on take off, if climbing over 700 fpm at least, you will need 600-700 feet agl. for a no power Question Mark Turnback to opposite. 45 degree bank at Vglide speed. Dont use short or narrow runways to practice. With some power on, over 1,500 RPM, I have done them from 400 agl. Practice with some power on first from 500 feet agl before the "700 agl No Power Question Mark Turnback".
An engine at idle still produces thrust. You're dead if the engine isn't turning. Seriously dangerous. If your aircraft climb gradient is NOT clearly greater than your glide ratio, DON'T DO IT.
As aircraft engines became more reliable, training priorities shifted away from emergency landing skills, which is a shame. If you can afford it, find an instructor like this guy and practice until you know your aircraft's stall characteristics under all circumstances.
Engine fails on take off and climbing out and Box Canyon Turnbacks done wrong are the main cause of fatals in USA. Most via pilot error stalls even if not TurningBack Turn after take off.. They just stall the airplane even going forward. Lost of control. Practice this well and learn how to stay alive.. I do..
My 1995 CFI that taught me 3 different kinds of Turnbacks used to say againts the critics of turnbacks; "Just because he coward cannot do a 40-45 degree bank at Vgl from say 700 agl, that does not mean all others cannot do them too. He is trying to stop you from learning what he coward cannot do, even if he needs that maneuver too. You dont learn from cowards.
"We do Turnbacks power on from 300 agl on banner towing to pick up the banner, And Crop Dusters do them from 200 agl every dam day of the year. It is a matter of not pulling too much and stall it like an idiot will do". You get used to turnbacks..
I said, I want to learn how to do them right too, Lets go practice them.. They saved my life years later from crashing on houses ahead. I did the turnback at 45 bank and landed tailwind.. The engine was full of rust inside..
Great video I did many trips around the VNC pattern, did my Private checkride there as well. Working on IFR at PGD in a 7ECA
Good luck with IFR!
I wish I lived in Florida so that you could be my cfi. I learn so much from your videos.
It's much appreciated!
@@fly8ma.comflighttraining199 his vids helped me pass my written
45 degree bank could work too, specially towards any crosswind. Better climb at over 800 fpm to have a higher climb angle. Shallow climb angle you cannot Turnback from 500 feet agl if no power or from any altitude because you will be too far away from airport at 1,000 feet or more.. But it is very probable with partial power on (Depends how much power left and airplane weight, etc). Better practice these Question Mark Turns with partial power first. On sim first, then at at 2,000 agl. Then on a safe to do airport. Most engine failures are partial power, not totally off. Lets learn these Turnbacks Emergency Maneuvers well.
This was a great video Jon. I need to come fly with you sometime or get you to come down to TX to fly with me in my 182 and show me what other instructors won't.
Thanks for this highly educational, safety enhancing, calming video.
Thanks for posting this video, Jon. I find that a lot of pilots get so caught-up in suggestions and recommended "standard" procedures that they completely forget to think and use common sense. SOPs are great under ideal circumstances, but following them means nothing if you lack fundamental stick-and-rudder skills. Learn your airplane and develop your skills so that you can handle anything and everything when the time comes.
"The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." You're in control--not the book or the words of your instructor, who's currently on the ground, unaware of your situation. Learn your aircraft and fly it.
As a junior... I still don't think I have the balls or courage to try this at 500ft, but it's amazing how many times even at 2k I get told not to do a 180. Since I only fly a Aeroprakt A22 (Foxbat), it has the strength and stability would be awesome to try this. I am going to attempt this safely at 5k and see the results. Thanks.
I just wrote an extensive article on the turn back maneuver that will appear in a future issue of both the Piper and Cessna Owner Magazines. I fly a Pilatus PC-12NG professionally and practice the engine failure and turn back maneuver in the simulator every year. In fact it is the final maneuver on the day 3 check ride. If I don’t make it back, I don’t pass. On the check ride, the engine fails at 800 feet. I have made a successful return every time in the past 6 years. I have even made it from 600 feet. What we are trained to do is immediately feather the prop (Prop control immediately full aft on piston powered airplanes), then lower approach flaps, 45 degree bank, and 85-90 knots, or best glide speed on your airplane. The idea is to keep the diameter if the return circle as tight as possible so as to not overshoot the runway or even the airport. The approach flaps lowers the stall speed which protects you in a 45 degree bank. The slow airspeed keeps the turn diameter tight. And I say exactly what was said by this pilot and that is to keep the nose down! Also, pilots need to practice and be proficient at the forward slip as it will be needed if you are too high.
*_There's a really easy and 'safe' way to train this move. Same as we do in the UK with 'slow flight' training_*
Get up to 3000+ feet. Do your checks.
Then ask your CFI/instructor to pull the trigger.
Then do the move 180 degree steep turn with nose down and airspeed good.
Measure your drop in altitude. Anything more than say 300ft lost means you go back and do it again.
Train it along with your other EFATO's and PFL's.
*It's just another string to your survival bow!*
45 Degrees after nose down, not 60. Dont pull to decrease speed under Vglide. I learned them decade ago.
45 not 60 bank. Most pilots cannot do 60 bank so low without pulling and stalling. 45 is safer and glide shallower too.
Hmmmmm.
I dunno man.
There’s been a lot of Human Factors research gone into this, and it’s been found that the safest option for the average weekend warrior is to go straight ahead.
A tough call!
Straight ahead to where?? A schoolyard, a Flea Market, a crowded beach like that california disaster a few years ago...?? BS.. if over the Turnback Altitude, be a man and Turnback..
@@CFITOMAHAWK It’s not my suggestion. It’s the CAA’s (or CASA, or whoever you’re governed by).
I do agree with you, that there are times where turning back, from upwind, may be the safer option, and that is obviously part of your pre-take off assessment, but generally going straight ahead gives you the choice of where to crash. Turning takes that choice away from you.
The problem with the demo, in this video, is that it totally neglects human factors.
The panic, confusion, fear, cognitive reasoning, assessing, etc, all take time.
Even Sully, with his 16000 hours and fast-jet experience took 8 seconds to make any control inputs. EIGHT!
The guy in this video is an excellent instructor, and makes great videos, but I don’t think it’s wise, to be making suggestions contrary to the CAA.
@@CFITOMAHAWK I fully agree about a ‘turn back altitude’ though. Past that point, it’s a no brainer, but I don’t think that it’s upwind at 500.
@@normannutbar424 Above Turnback altitude a pilot can turn 45 degree bank with nose down and Turnback.. It is a matter of not freezing on controls and do stupid things.
Pilots are not supposed to do stupid things... I used to teach those turnbacks on different airplanes in my 1990's CFI days... "Human factors" can be controlled by been a good human.. A real PILOT...
@@normannutbar424 I agree not at 500 agl either. Used to teach them power off from 700 to 900 agl. Houses under us. With power i taugh them from 400 agl and troubleshooting before Turnback.. I have videos landing with 16 knots tailwind after turnbacks on cherokees. 1995..
Awesome stuff John! Man I love your new Aircraft! 😊
Thanks, I'm definitely loving it too!
Great Video! I most especially enjoyed the preparation you did for your take off BEFORE even getting in the plane. One thing I would add to that emergency landing site evaluation on take off is to have a preferential bias to turn in the direction which puts your stall tab on the LOW WING. But I would practice it at safe altitude in both directions incase one day you have no other option. Also use of rudder in a stall during a high load low speed turn would be awesome and give us a heads up which could save us when the SHTF, especially if you can do a flying demo like in this video.
Wut? You turn into wind! What the hell has the trim tab got to do with it?
We need to see this in a Skyhawk rather than a Bearhawk.
Skyhawks are safer.. More wing..
@@tonyari223 No.. you are wrong. That is for a very looong runway. On a normal USA Ga of average 3,000 long you will be about half mile after end of runway when at 500 agl on an average 700 fpm climbing single. Averages.. Not extremes. Dont promote BS citing extremes..
@@tonyari223 Wow, the excuses the coward try to use not to practice this needed maneuver.. You say that "Density altitude can HUGE CHANGE AT 500 agl from ground level". WOOOOOOW!!, that will be A HUGE difference!! WOOOOW !! Buaaaaa !! Buaaaa !!
@@outwiththem I would rather be a live coward than a dead blowhard. Also, get over it, *you lost* .
You can do it where you did it, in the plane you did it, at the GW you were at, and with the environmental conditions you had. What about tomorrow?
We should teach our students to know understanding their aircraft and know how it will perform along a spectrum of those factors. I don’t like hard set rules either, but the biggest factor involved is pilot knowledge, experience, and ability. You touch on this late in the video, but should have hit this hard from the very beginning.
While not a big deal, you said something that creates unrealistic expectations and self-doubt in young pilots. The statement that there should never be a delay in recognition is unrealistic. Human factors engineers and experimental test pilots have studied pilot cognition for decades. With full engagement in the task at hand (e.g. engine failure) there may be no delay in recognizing a change is flight conditions. Under normal circumstances, at least two seconds is normal. What if you are looking at a bird coming near your flight path? What if the tower is giving you departure instructions? What if you had a strong thermal and with your 200 hours you are concentrating on getting your airspeed and altitude back where you want it? What if you just sneezed and your cool sunglasses are sitting sideways on your face?
My point is that you spend very little time in a regime where attention is not divided and there is no delay.
All that said, the word “impossible” in front of anything is just as limiting as using “never.” Use it sparingly.
180 degrees does not get you lined up with the opposite runway you took off.. would need to turn more than 180 to intercept the center line, then another turn back to get wings level. depends on how quickly the pilot lowers the nose, maintains best glide speed. also aircraft type, glide ratio, etc. great video!
in most cases you really do not need to turn the full 180 you can glide back on a angle to the runway. and still land with ease. And you do not have to land on the paved part the grass is also a place to land. But what ever. Do what you have to to survive.
I recommend to my students to learn how to fly RC airplanes. That really helps a lot.
He said that in the video
@@Brandon-dh5rd Missed that. Thanks
@@ctsteve1967 My flying GA has been materially affected (positively) by my RC and hang gliding. Vastly better as a result.
Very good and informative video. Thanks for sharing John.
Bravo. I never bought into it being "impossible". It's about knowledge, ADM, and your options as far as potential landing sites. As a student, I would look at the geography of the immediate area for any of the airports I flew to..and know my "options" for a power loss during takeoff/climb. I've engrained this into my preflight/planning..as part of my way of "doing business".
Low time ppl here so my 2 cents are probably only worth 1 but I think this is very airplane dependent. Best option I feel is to see what your plane can do like you did in the video at a safe altitude, maybe get some spin training to know what it feels like to stall in a bank, and consider: certain task might be easier if I fly straight(remebering to drop the gear again, engine recovery checklist (turn on fuel pump, switch fuel selector, etc.), take out flaps from our short feild takeoff for a better glide slope). Just some thoughts.
I agree, it can be dependent and it's important to learn about your plane
Too many variables in this situation to make an absolute statement. In my Cub I would do a 180 as well, BUT I have lost friends doing this in other aircraft. Be careful how you recommend this .
I used to teach them on all Piper Cherokees with short wings. Piper Tomahawks too. 45 degree banks.-Never do those 60 degrees (Dangerous). From 7-800 feet agl, after climbing at over 700 fpm. If climbing shallow you cannot turn back unless have some power left on engine, but no way w/o power. Shallow climbs you will be too far away from airport at 700 agl and even farther at any altitude above that. Shallow climb?? Only with power on you can Turnback to Opposite..
First vid I watched, great info! Thanks for sharing!!
Wonder how some of the V tails would perform in a low 180 like that?
Think I saw a vid from last Oshkosh where one came in banking hard and practically stalling and hitting the ground pretty hard.. (Id have to look that up again though)
We used to practice this when i was a newbie pilot at less altitude. And still make a headwind landing. Ground effect is a wonderful thing