Threading Dial Indicator for Metric AND Imperial Threads
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- čas přidán 19. 04. 2020
- A video about the extended threading dial indicator which I designed and built for my EMCO V13 lathe, to speed up the thread cutting process. What's special about this indicator, is that it works with metric AND imperial threads, while it doesn't require any drive gear changes. Also this video contains a discussion about the threading dial indicator theory, with particular emphasis on the differences between it's use with metric and imperial pitch lead screws and threads.
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That's a great explanation of the threading dial. My metric Colchester Bantam didn't come with one, and your video inspired me to design one for my lathe. I'll only utilise the two metric dials. Thank you for making this video.
Most underrated machinig channel!
Absolute thruth !
Brilliant discription. Anwsered years of threading problems in a short video. Excellent
I am very happy that I found this channel! Thank you.
You did the math! Thank you! This is the content I yearned for and thanks to Stephan GTW for recommending you. Subscription button smashed and the like button smashed. Looking forward to more.
Very funny, thank you!
they still teach that you have to have the clasp nut engaged at all times. I tried to explain it to some oldtimers in my company and they were stunned when it actually worked. Although I measured the leadscrew pitch to be safe and it was 5 instead of 6. I used your formula for the pitches you can disengage the clasp nut and all of them worked.
I always like your work because it’s cleverly designed
Great video..........'every day is a school day', as they say! Thank you for your time in putting it together!
Mate you've got an excellent channel. Mathematics is important to understanding. You have properly explained the relationship of the tool to the spindle when threading which is of great help to me.
That's the complete story how it works, thank you!
I had to figure that by myself out with a pencil and Excel some month ago, because your video wasn't existing. ;-)
Super glad to see you making more content Alex! We all want to see it. Cheers from a toolmaker in Australia!
Thanks for your kind and encouraging comment, Sir.
All of the metric threading kits for imperial lathes have a 127 tooth change gear in addition to many smaller gears and I never really knew why. This video clearly explains it, thank you!
extremely nice work! very thorough explanation, also
I come here by a Stefan Gotteswinter indication and wow! So much technical information! Thank you!
Lovely work and explanation!
Alex, I am really impressed by your comprehensive engineering approaches to the situations and phenomena you describe, and your very clear explanations. I also enjoy your attitude and sense of humor. I came to your channel because of the discussions of welding distortion. I am an electrical engineer learning TIG welding, and my electronics training is not much use for welding! I am welding a stainless steel project, and knew that the response of stainless steel to heat would be much larger than for mild/carbon steel, aluminum, etc. I watched your videos and did some experimenting, and now I have been able to quickly and easily reverse the distortion that my welds have caused.
Glad you find the content useful, Sir.
Explained the process very well !
Very helpful explanation. Thank you.
This screams for a small rotary encoder based solution. I love that you built a clockwork device, and I know there are computer controlled lead screws (the optimal solution) but for someone who wanted to "keep it real" having a small electronic unit to do all this conversion without having to go as far as you did would make some sense. I think I will build one for my mini-lathe before I go full conversion (which has seemed overkill.)
Great explanation of the problem. Need to make an electronic dial to do all the calcs with a display of a dial. Thanks for sharing, enjoyed.
All the best for your build!
Hi,
I have the EMCO Super 11 that I purchased in 1989 (imperial). I also bought the threading dial which I think they used on both metric an imperial. The dial is a little different then the dial in your catalog. My dial has three meshing gears on it, 14, 15, 16 teeth. I use the 16 but I don't use it much. I built a lathe stop foot brake pedal like the one in the original catalog so I stop my lathe at the end of the thread and reverse the spindle.
On imperial lathes it is easy to know which threads don't require a thread indicator. If the thread is divisible by the lead screw then you can engage it anywhere. On the Super 11 the lead screw is 8 tpi, so 8,16,24,32,40, etc. work with no problems.
I don't remember if the Super 13 came with a foot brake but this makes threading very easy. On critical threads where I want to stop at an exact place I use a hand wheel on the rear of the spindle.
Alex- found your site from our friend Stefan. I enjoyed your video. Want to check out your other ones now. thanks
I will never sell my Imperial tool room Okuma (yes 4TPI ledscrew) - but that didnt stop me from frecently buying a CNC lathe - one for show and the other for serious productivity improvement - I wont say which is which -:) Thanks again for an interesting and well presented video. Your spindle Bearing video was equally well appreciated - cheers Pete
Thanks Pete for your kind comment. I will make a silent guess wich is which ;) All the best, Alex
Excelent explanation, thank you
I am new to your channel and just wanted to say that I found this very interesting.
Thanks!
Very nicly done. Good explanations and demonstrtions.
Instant sub. Looking forward to watching the rest of your videos. Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing!!!
Thanks for the math! I only cut metric threads, changing the dial gear is not difficult on my Chinese lathe, but *remembering* to change it is!
Excellent Video. Thanks and subbed. Thanks to SGTW for pointing out your channel.
Hello Alex, I just subscribed. Your explanation of how this works is perfect. I really appreciate the video. By the way, Stefan Gotteswinter showed a link in his recent video and I am glad he did.
Many thanks, Sir!
Nice job and well explained, in my personal case I think 90% of the threads I have to single-point are multiples of the leadscrew pitch so I can probably reverse the spindle for the rest of them. I have the brake and everything after all.
Awesome video. Would love to see how you made the metric thread pitch indicator attachment.
Great work, and great video. Please do a full video on the build and machining of the dial. Id like to replicate it, with some slight improvements, for my 6mm lathe leadscrew.
I have "screwed" up 3 threading jobs over the years because i forgot to change the thread dial gear. This would help greatly as im getting much older and foresee many more similar blunders in future.
Subscribed. 🤙
I'll try to make a detail video about the indivator if I find the time. At the moment I have no drawings for it, because I made it on the fly.
But the design for a 6mm pitch lead screw is very simple: 10 tooth gear meshing with the lead screw. Small 10 tooth gear and 10 position indicator disc on that same shaft. 35 tooth gear on second axle, driven by 10 tooth gear on 1st shaft. 127 tooth gear on third axle, driven by 2nd axle (i.e. the 35 tooth gear).
Just love your channel. Peace
Thank you! I need to make threading indicator like this.
Thanks finally I understand what it’s all about. I will try to replicate the metric part but I have a small lathe 3mm lead screw so I think I need to calculate the number of teeth for the 2 small gears.
Spectacular device
IMPORTANT SUPPLEMENT: In the example at 9:15 I messed up the numbers, sorry guys. The fraction 4.8 is for a thread pitch of 1.25mm, not 1.75mm.
yes was a little confused and came looking in the comments. 6/1.75 is 3.42857143, not practical to have an integer in this situation i guess? do i just keep the LS engaged and reverse in this case? making a M12 drawbar. thanks for the videos
Gratuliere! Tolle Konstruktion !!
Servus aus NÖ!
Danke und schöne Grüße nach NÖ!
Thanks for the analysis Alex. Metric guy here as well, had an apocalypse when I found out that I could break the 'half-nut engaged' rule for threads whose pitch fits integer number of times in the leadscrew pitch! :) (it is a bit risky though, since, without a dial, you may end up with mis-engaged nut: half closed nut that can drag your carriage but with a phase offset....Not nice if the thread is a difficult one o a valuable part...)
(now I have ended up with an imperial lathe and though I can disengage nut when metric threading in order to stop at a shoulder I do have to reengage and reverse the spindle to go back...)
Enjoying your work very much, thanks for sharing.
BR,
Thanos
Hi Mr. Thanos,
right, if the nut is not thoroughly closed, braking the rule is dangerous. On my lathe, luckily, the nut closes nicely and you can clearly feel it when it is fully closed.
Greetings, Alex
@@anengineersfindings Hi Alex,
right, you can always tell if halfnut is fully engaged, especially if it's your lathe that you're working on. But still, if things are tight when starting back the thread, first try in closing the nut might result in 180 deg out of phase. Halfnut won't close of course but it will touch on the peaks of the leadscrew thread and will start dragging the carriage. Ask me who I know...:)
BR,
Thanos
The handbook for my metric Colchester lathe makes a comment about when and when you can't disengage the half nuts, but folks used to working in imperial are wary after the first mismatch. Took me awhile to be certain when, but now i know for sure.😊
@@chrisstephens6673 actually, you can disengage anytime, as long as you don't miss your spot and re-engage at the same spot going in reverse :)
You will be thanking Stephan a lot I'm guessing, subbed.
But thank you for this in depth analysis of the threading dial problem.
And it still is a problem!
I'll be reviewing this vid a few times, perhaps a drawing of your gearing/dial mechanism would be popular.
From Oz
Thank you, Sir! Yes, I am very overwhelmed by the impact of Stefan's shout out. If I find the time I'll try to provide a drawing of this indicator.
Stephan has huge credibility and respect within the engineering CZcams community.
Any recomendation or endorsement by him, and I'm trying to remember another of a CZcams Chanel, has earnt a trial.
You have passed and exceeded!
Now watch the subs climb.
Well done.
Carl from Oz.
I love the calculations for this. Just some additional finishing touches on the dials/gears and it'd be perfect.
Exellent video
I think you should do some videos on your V13! I just bought one to replace my V10p. My v13 looks identical to yours. I will be installing a VFD soon.
A couple of thoughts on avoiding changing indicator gears:
First: gears of 20, 21 and 22 teeth will do everything you want. Cut all three gears on a gear blank sized for 21-teeth then the mesh centre distance does not change. Put all three on the same shaft. Then you can shift gears by sliding the shaft up and down.
Second: gears of 35 and 36 teeth will do all apart from 5.5mm and 11mm pitches. Cut both on a blank sized for 35 1/2 teeth. Shift by sliding. Have a reversible graduated dial with seven divisions one side and five divisions the other side. The other graduated dial would have 12 and 9 divisions.
Your method is very good but I would get confused over dots, double dots, squares and triangles.
Absolutely brilliant explanation. I have the same machine. Where did you find the original documentation? If you'd ever consider scanning & sharing i would love to add that to my collection. Cheers!
Great information for sure.
But i think i will stay with my current way of Cutting Threads on a Manual Lathe.
Metric Lathe with a Metric Lead Screw:
disengage and re-engage for Metric
drive back out for Imperial Threads.
educational... thanks!
Just Fantastic, well explained. Make me one. lol :)
Sub'ed thank Stefan
THANK YOU SIR!
Your welcome ;)
Wauw, this is really amezing. thank you very much for explaning it so nicely. I like to copy this for my AI Hembrug DR133. Can you give details of the gears you used? kind regards Harry
I have been thinking about making a thread indicator for metric threads and was discouraged when I found it would take changing gears on the indicator to make it work. Is your design somewhere so that I can download?
Sorry, I have no drawings for this indicator. In fact I got the gears and just machined the housing on the fly, so as to place the gears to each other with the right axis-diastance. This indicator is very simple, there is only one gear per shaft.
you say 25 POINT 4 but you write a comma! ~~~~ very interesting video! Did not know metric lathe dont have threading dials often!
This always drives me nuts too- but I use a lot of swiss tooling in watchmaking, and this is a thing they do instead of decimals. I have no idea why- and have never seen an explanation for it.
Sorry about the comma, but this is how here in continental Europe we learn to write numbers in school.
An Engineer's Findings so how is a number like this written? 123,456.7890000?
@@Joemama555 A comma separates the full number and it's fraction. Pi for example is written 3,1415
A dot separates thousands, so for example one-hundred-thousand is written 100.000
Or did I misunderstood your question?
@@Joemama555 I EU world 123.456,78900000
great explanation. I have a Boley 5LZ with a 6mm leadscrew and an internal gearing which makes the "pitch" 4mm per rotation of the spindle. Does this interfere wirh your formula's
thanks: subscribed and liked. Hope you keep producing!
Thanks. I'm not sure if I understand your explanation right. Do you mean, your lead screw moves your slide 4mm for each spindle revolution? Does this mean this lathe can only cut 4mm pitch threads? Or does the slide carry the threading gearbox?
Does “n” is for the number of teeth for the gear?
Great video, thank You!
Subscribed to Your chanel. I hava a weilier condor sort of similar to Your Emco. No indicator, may copy Your idea. Mine has a 2 speed motor and an electric brake that speeds up threading somewhat.
Thanks for the sub!
Brilliant description and not in your native tongue, great kudos to you.👍
Many thanks, good point, glad you understand my blabbing..
This is a great video, however the ending was rushed. I have a 1930's IXL Leader lathe with 6tpi lead screw. However this machine is flat belt driven so there is no reverse. I have to confess I got lost with the math at the end... if I understand it correctly if I am cutting 2mm pitch I have to wait for 40 revolutions? How does you dial indicate when the 40 revolutions has passed exactly?
I would love to know how the old timers cut metric threads on these lathes with no reverse, no brake etc. I believe how they did it is to stop the lathe after the cut and use the tumbler reverse to reverse the lead screw, making sure to engage on the same number as the carriage is reversed.
So on my Emco V10p, which has a metric gearbox and 3mm pitch leadscrew, i can open the half nuts if i'm cutting 1mm, 1.5mm, or 3mm pitches?
Right. Also with 0.75, 0.5 and 6mm pitches.
@@anengineersfindings i'm going to give it a try. I was always taught to keep them closed for metric.this will be a huge time saver. Thank you for the video!
Give it a try and let me know if it doesn't work.
Great video.I see your lathe has frosting marks on it. Did you scrape your lathe in , . I see your home country is the same as your lathe. I need to try make a gap for my Emco v13 as it is a poor design and I am suprised Emco would have done this.
How do you stop your lathe so quick while thread cutting.? Have you got your lathe running on a vfd with a break resistor. Happy to have found your channel. Thank you.
Some years ago I scraped cross and compound slides of my lathe. Right, Emco is in Austria, not far away from where I live actually. My V13 has an electric spindle brake, which was optional back in the day. Thanks and regards, Alex
@@anengineersfindings I seem to be one of the very few owners of an Emco v13 that has a permanent gap . It has a much longer compound to compensate for work close to the chuck. If I use my original Emco three jaw and am working within 50 mm to the chuck the carriage is hanging over the gap. So dirt gets under the ways all the time. Rigidity is severely compromised. I need to make a gap.Did you ever document your emco refurbishment.?
Wow, the gap issue is weird. Can it be that a pre-owner just didn't give you the bridge when you bought the lathe? Sorry I only have two or three pictures of my lathe refurbishment and DRO-upgrade.
@@anengineersfindings No the casting in the gap is rough and there are no hold down bolt holes.The topslide is also 285mm long. Much longer than standard.I dont know how long the standard compound slide is.?
Could you share the plans of your creation?
any chance of video showing thread dial construction?
Sorry, I didn't film machining this thing. But it is very easy, just three indicator gears meshing with each other.
I watched it again, I need to check if both of my lathes do metric and Imperial threads.
Interesting - seems like the right way to fix all this is with a resolver and a tiny computer board. A solenoid could time the engagement more perfectly protecting the nut and lead-screw..
That's surely possible. In my case, however, I was looking for a mechanical solution for simplicity.
A closeup of the indicator during threading would have been nice to really understand the function, in the video we unfortunately can see nothing.
Is any plan or schematic available including the required gears? That would it make a little bit easier to understand and maybe to adapt to an other leadscrew pitch.
If I find the time, I'll try to make some plans available. Thanks.
@@anengineersfindings Maybe just a short clip with a closeup and an explanation what is happening and how to read the scales maybe enough and done with less work than plans?
Dankeschön :-)
This is engineering apply to machining at is best! Mixte this with the Colchester quick thread and you may just have something as nice than a Hardinge :)
Thanks ;)
my lathe has a 5 TPI, I know, no joke. Do I have a metric or imperial lead screw?
5 threads per inch is an imperial pitch, not a metric one.
@@anengineersfindings I was trying to 3D print a gear which I could use as a threading dial. The lead screw has a 5TPI and the pitch diameter of .0.8265". So to find the diametrical pitch, DP=num of teeth/pitch diameter. So DP= 6.02... To match gears, the DP of both gear must be the same(keep in mind that i am meshing a screw ACME to a gear). The CAD program I was using just required me to input these givens and it produced the gear for me. I printed the gear and it didn't mesh with the lead screw. Since I used the TPI value for my calculations, It is not a gear, so I multiplied the DP I found by Pi and it gave me a result of 18 approximately Diametrical pitch. So I 3d print a gear with 35 teeth with a DP of 18 and it worked. Is this a coincident, maybe.
@@dlfabrications If your lead screw has 5 TPI, then the spacing between the threads is 1/5th inch. Your gear needs to have the same pitch between it's teeth. I.e.its diametral pitch should be 0.2". I don't know about the inputs on your cad though.
@@anengineersfindings No. You are confusing diametral pitch and CIRCULAR pitch. A 5 tpi leadscrew will mesh with a 0.20" circular pitch gear. There is a standard formula to convert between circular and diametral pitches (0.2" CP ~=15.7 DP). This place: www.engineersedge.com/gear_pitch_chart.htm or khkgears site is very good in this respect.
To simplify things why not two indicators - a metric and an imperial. One on either side of the saddle? Cheers
What is "opening the clath"? The part that engages the leadscde is called half nuts. Not a clutch.
Seems like I need to change out my 4tpi leadscrew to a Metric 6mm one then! Aw man :(
Bud Spencer! 😝😂, nice!
Right, he is my Idol ;)
With regard to Threading with a TDI, If you have time and desire, take a look here:
czcams.com/video/Be8DHO4EaG8/video.html&ab_channel=Atelier-MD
Is a Full-geared universal thread dial indicator
In the description text of this video are all the information such as the entire technical drawing can be downloaded ALL FREE!
Ich möchte mich ganz herzlich für dieses Video bedanken, habe ich mir die Inspiration für mein Gewindeuhr Projekt hier geholt!
Beste Grüße aus Nordrhein Westfalen!
This tool combine with an auto retract would really speed up thread cutting (See this link for a auto retract prototype czcams.com/video/ZKOxnBFKKtk/video.html )
Bisch Du e Össi oder e Schwizer? ;)
"In the Metric World it's a little more complicated". But, but Metric is simpler 🙄
I still think a reversing lead screw would be easier. Not only to build but also to use
Right. Or a lathe with automatic disengagement, like a Hardinge-type.
Or a VFD and an automatic lift clear threading tool like the Victorians had, oh and me.😉
@@anengineersfindings
Maybe I got spoiled. Where I retired from we only had 5 Hardinges
One reason metric is inferior to imperial.