The Fokker Dr.1 was Good, But It's Not Why You Think.
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- The Fokker Dr.1 and for that matter the Sopwith Triplane were good airplanes. They had good performance and were combat effective, but why?
It can't be because they were triplanes, otherwise we would have seen more triplanes. In this episode I'll cover the Dr.1 and explain why triplanes are a poor design choice but how Fokker got around that and make the Dr1 so good.
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Baron Von Richt was clearly an ork...red made his faster.
Thank you again Greg - your insights are always interesting to hear.
The figures are only for Sopwith Camels with the Clerget 9B. Camels flew with 150 ho Bentley BR1s in the Royal Navel air service. They also used 140 hp Clerget 9BF engines and 160 hp Gnome Monosoupape 9N. A Bentley or Gnome engined Camel would be a different kettle of fish.
But....
What about...
The QUADRAPLANE????
Huh?
HUH???
You forgot mention that the propellar was bolted on the engine, and the whole engine rotated.
That caused gyroscope effect.
The richoffen mentioned "devil" was about that.
The fenomen made some turns and manovers hard to do,
but also in right hand You could use it, and the Fokker would turn nearly in the spot.
Same effect was the cause of Camels bad reputation,
as many new Camel pilots died from it.
If Gilette had been making airplanes in WWI, they'd have had five wings by 1918.
@@jaym8027 the Italians did so in about 1920...
I think it might have been six, three at each end of a flying ship. I'd need to look it up to check
😂 5 wings and a lubrication strip.
"60 'Transaereo' a massive aircraft schemed to carry 60 people over a distance of 850km (528 miles). A patent for a six-wing flying boat had been lodged by Gianni Caproni on 6 February 1919. Design and construction of what, at the time, was without doubt the largest aircraft ever produced began the same year"
@@jaym8027 oh man ! - - go home , cut your lawn . And after that - study books about aerodynanics !
Baron von Richthofen was a smart guy, he knew if he painted his plane red it would go faster that way he could make up for the triplane being a little slower.
Maybe he found the surface to be too rough and decided to go for some nice finish xD
The problem with painting it bright red, was that it attracted unwanted attention from Highway Patrol... he wracked up a lot of tickets because of that paint job.
Red wunz go fasta!
@@wolfshanze5980 I was doing 80 mph a RED Ferrari Flew by me at 120 . I saw hit Coming so Thumbs up and he Turned around and Waved..Two hours later no pull over for him.😁😁😁😁
Truman Sparks contends that it's the stripes that make it look fast, not the color.
The dr1 was so well known for the baron its often forgotten, the majority of Richtofen's victories were in Albatros types...
Neither was he the only one flying DR.I.
@@ottovonbismarck2443bruh
Indeed, only the last 11 of his kills were in a Dr.1. And the one he was flying when he was killed wasn't even painted red.
Werner Voss is in my head the DR.1 guy. His even had a mustache :D
Since I started learning more about the period my mental image of Richthofen changed to him in a red Albatross. It doesn't "help" that his book ends before he got his Fokker, tho I think he did a test flight in it. (as far as I remember)
The DR1 had a nasty reputation for shedding it's lower wing while recovering from a dive. This often resulted in a crash with a dead pilot.
It's worth noting: Germans knew the Sopwith F1 "Camel" Clerget engine was better and a direct bolt in replacement of the DR 1 Oberusel. They would grab every engine from captured/crashed Sopwiths and swap out for the added horsepower and reliability.
In this era, 20 extra horsepower was huge.
Almost a 20% boost over the 100 and change listed for the Fokker in the table.
Engine power (to weight, somewhat) was everything, even well into WW2.
Josef Jacobs used the captured Clerget in his Dr1. Jacobs flew the Dr1 for much longer when pilots were already converting over to the DVII.
@fhuber7507
Check out Jane's fighting aircraft of world war one.
Often they would salvage gnome' engines from downed French aircraft, and put them in dr1s.
The gyroscopic effect of the radial piston engine was a huge problem.
The advantage of the Dr 1 was its maneuverability and ability to turn on a dime almost hang in midair
You can thank the Wright brothers for the thin wings. They did extensive wind tunnel research, but their wind tunnel was quite small, so the wings being tested were also quite small, only a few inches. At that size, a thin wing IS better. Reynolds numbers were not a thing yet, so they didn't realize the effect didn't scale up. I'd wager the university where the thick foil was invented had a full size tunnel.
Prandtl in Göttingen got his new windtunnel 1916/17.
And you can thank Australian aeronautical pioneer Lawrence Hargrave for developing the boxkite wing form used by the Wright brothers
Additional factor that might have influenced the Wrights, they used wing warping instead of ailerons, which I would imagine favored a thin flexible wing.
@@edwinball985I was just thinking that as well. I’d guess it would be difficult to warp the wings to turn with a much thicker wing, though I’d guess that was likely just a benefit of the thin wing that they developed, based on their wind tunnel testing.
No Wrights' wings were not the same construction of later wings, they were tilting wings and too light.
Another straightforward easy to understand explanation for why Snoopy was constantly foiled.
Why has no one secured a license to make scale Snoopy figures for scale models?
@@jwrockets
Good question!
Dude ( whispers ) Snoopy had a root beer problem
I would have expected Snoopy to have a natural advantage in a dogfight, but apparently not.
I always thought that triplanes were better because they allowed a more compact design with a short span, better roll rate, and even sturdier because of the shorter wings. But I also knew the Dr.1 has build issues and was slower, so the things I knew, I also knew I didn't really know, and I didn't know what I didn't know.
Now I do know what I didn't know. Thanks.
Short span does help roll rate, however the Dr.1's roll rate wasn't great anyway.
and you are not going really fast anyway
The Sopwith Triplane had ailerons on each wing, a total of six. The Fokker had them on the top wing only; just two. That must have made a difference to roll initiation.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles But how would having a wing area like a triplane in a monoplane be feasible back then with out it being a bomber?
@GreenBlueWalkthrough why do you want the wing area?
How refreshing to hear a human on CZcams
you've been hanging out on the wrong side of youtube brother
Also, it truly seems like it was written by the narrator.
The tone varies with the material and moments of excitement are perfectly appropriate. Subscribed :)
Dude Greg’s channel is full of absolute banger videos. He knows what he’s talking about and finds a ton of juicy original documents.
@@Spit823 my nick here is maybe a leak to my past.
Do you usually watch video's without humans in them?
Tom Sopwith stated that one reason for his triplane was to improve visibility for the pilot as three narrow wings blocked out less of the sky. Strangely the Fokker dr1 has very wide wings and visibility is awful as attested by the late Don Eliss who crashed his friends Dr1 right in front of me as he came in to land ; a broken prop and damaged wing tip was the result. He said (basically!) One has no idea where the ground is, the wings block your view forward and below. Fun fact :- Tom Sopwith pretty much saved England in both world wars ! he had aircraft and designs ready for WW1 as he could see what was coming ;and after the Government bankrupted him postwar, he carried on with a new company name :- Hawker (named after Harry Hawker Tom`s dead test pilot friend) so Sopwith then got Hurricanes ready (designed by Sydney Camm) before WW2 broke out! (thanks mate!) Then there's the Harrier ! they should all be Sopwiths !!
When taxiing the DR 1 the pilot had to weave back and forth to see.
The DR1 gets grounded soon after the Red Baron's death. The DR1 had a nasty habit of sheading it's lower wing when stressed. This usually resulted in the pilots death.
Nice to know 'England' was saved!
Also, the SHar which whacked so many of the Queen's enemies in the South Atlantic!
Tom Sopwith was a great designer, not always a great businessman. Under the Hawker name things were better run
As an engineer (BSME and MSE), my comment is that you are pretty darn good at engineering understanding and interpretation as well as interesting videos. Nice videos and channel.
Thank you.
currently in school for my BS in Mechanical Engineering and i have to concur
He missed the part were Triplanes OP for the times because speed didn't matter but packaging,clime and manvuvering did... Much like in V tails and 4 props. Which I guess comes from a lack of understanding how in engeering you need to solve for your limitations... Which I'm sure if they could have built F-22s they would have... But they couldn't and likely wouldn't as what radar?
@GreenBlueWalkthrough did you watch the video?
@@01Bouwhuis No because he's sounds sumpriming aeogant and made mistajes he never has before...
A French pilot had escaped from Dunkirk and found himself at a DAR fundraiser one month later.
It was his turn to speak, with the hopes of selling lots of war bonds.
He started: "Madams and mademoiselles, the battle, she was que terrible. I shot down two German bombers, but then these three Fokkers came shooting at me..."
At the enunciation of the word "Fokker", especially given his French accent, the DAR members gasped loudly, crystalware was dropped to the floor, and Mrs Belvedere's chair broke. It was chaos. It was pandemonium.
A volunteer quickly jumped to the microphone and announced "ladies, ladies.... 'Fokker' is a type of German aircraft", to their great relief.
The French pilot resumed his story: "... anyway these three Fokkers were in Messerschmitts"
In a book called "Iron Men with Wooden Wings", it details the acceptance of the DR1 (among many other things in that amazing book). Richthofen initially rejected the DR1, saying it was "slow." His chief rival (whose name I cannot remember for the life of me) tested it after that and said, "She's slow." The Fokker reps were crushed, then he grinned and said, "She's slow, but I like the way she dances. I'll take a squadron." His squadron was so successful that Richthofen ordered the plane as well.
I read that book long ago.
Was that Werner Voss?
Thanks for mentioning that book; it ROCKS! Came out the same year as the movie "The Blue Max" and really gave you a feel for what early air-combat was like.
@@heneagedundas YES! I remembered that it started with a "V", but drew a blank after that.
@@heneagedundas That was going to be my guess. I think Udet flew with Richthofen, as did Goering although he's not legendary in that company.
Obviously, as any expert would know, being painted red made them climb faster.
@@larsandersson5974 Unfortunately Göring's LUFTWAFFE had forgotten this fact...
I knew a guy who had time on a replica DR 1 with an O320, some on extended x country. He said it was a lot like a helicopter in cruise, neutrally stable to mildly unstable, requiring full time attention, and quite tiring. He said he could yaw it and it would just stay where it was pointed and could do crazy tight flat skidding turns, sort of like a dirt track car. That was without the rotary gyro effects adding to the fun.
How different is that from other planes of the era?
I’d imagine that designing for static stability was difficult at best with their rudimentary knowledge and crude early wind tunnels.
@@Justanotherconsumer Static stability is simply weathervaning effect and that part was understood at the time. I've read that the Camel was similar, but the DR1 being more extreme because it was so short coupled and had no fixed vertical stabilizer. Its yaw stability would only come from the aerodynamic center of the fuselage side area being aft of the C of G. Not much stabilizing moment. I think these airplane were the way they were on purpose for point-and-shoot purposes.
Another advantage of the Dr1 was the flat turn ability. This was a skidding turn which basically allowed the airplane to appear to fly nearly sideways for a moment. Since the guns were facing forward, the severe skid ability allowed the guns to be swung to a different direction, left or right, other than the direction of travel. Werner Voss was very adept at this maneuver and surprised his adversaries by suddenly bringing his guns to bear without banking the aircraft. This was noted by his seven adversaries in his last dog fight and probably lost to history by those who didn't survive their encounters.
Agreed. I had the privilege of flying a Dr1 early on in my flying career. I remember how much you could slip and skid the aircraft. I thought to myself back then that “Wow, you can point the guns in a wide circular field without changing direction of the aircraft.” And how much of an advantage that must have been. The other thing I recall was even though the visibility forward was limited, the view behind you was unobstructed which must have made it harder for an adversary to sneak up on you. Just my 2 cents from an old pilot.
What an interesting observation! Thank you!
The manoeuvre is called Deflection Shooting. What was not mentioned was the Fokker Tri-planes instability, due to said short wings and short fuselage, you had to be a skilled pilot to fly it.
@@brianholden2724 This is not that.
In this manoeuvre a Dr.1 pilot would fly alongside their target then kick the rudder hard so that they ware facing their target for a moment and open fire with their forward firing guns.
Deflection shooting came into it -as with all dog fighting tactics- but this was a manoeuvre I've only heard about being used with the Dr.1.
@@chrishartley4553 An aircraft has only three rotations of axis Pitch, Roll & Yaw. The "maneuver" which is being called a skid is Yaw. Yaw is a maneuver that was employed before the advent of dog fighting. All aircraft land with a nose up approach because of the pilots position the nose of the aircraft would obstruct their view, to overcome this the pilot would yaw the plane to give himself a view of the airfield out the side of the plane, this is also used to land in cross winds. the attacking pilot would not fly directly behind but to either the left or right of his opponent and Yaw not to point his guns AT the plane but in front of it, called leading the target. He was shooting at the point where the plane was going to be in its flight path at the same time the bullets did, hence the name defection shooting, because they were not aiming directly at the aircraft. The Fokker was particularly good at this because of it's short fuselage enabling it to yaw at a more acute angle.
Such a lack of WW1 content out there with planes since obviously ww2 just casts a big shadow over it. I am excited for more of this as well as interwar stuff. There is just nothing so cool than the 20s especially when talking about the mail and transportation sectors of aviation at that era. The designs were all over the place in every country.
As a kid, I always thought the DR1 was some sort of killer machine. Never understood why it wasn’t copied. (Before I found out about the Sopwith Triplane).
Later, I assumed its greatness was due to roll rate, or something along those lines.
After not having thought about this plane much for decades, it will be good to learn the truth.
there was a great video from tommy sopwith who said they copied his triplane but forgot the importance of the wing cutouts so pilots could see below.
If Rise of Flight's representation of the Dr.I is anything to go by, "pure" roll rate is quite atrocious in this plane... although, IIRC, if you're used to WW2-era sims, most of the ones in RoF will feel super sluggish in the roll, anyway. The ailerons seem to hardly have any effect at all.
One trait of the simulated Dr.I that initially confused the hell out of me and then developed into my favorite trait the plane has to offer, is how insanely well it responds to rudder inputs. You don't initiate a flat turn by rolling the plane over using the ailerons (those hardly seem to do anything when employed on their own), but you give it a good kick of rudder and if you get it right, she will really turn on a dime. And I think RoF (and probably IL-2 "Flying Circus" more recently, but I don't own that module) really got it right here - having flown the Dr.I quite extensively back in the day, the incredible story of Werner Voss' last dogfight really started to make complete sense.
Internally braced wing. No flying wires. No flying wire drag.
The prototype DR1 didn't have the interplane struts. They were put in because the German air force demanded them. The airplane flew just fine without them.
@@fhuber7507even when under high loads when turning hard?
One factor not mentioned was that the Germans were also often fighting defensively and over their lines, it's low top speed was less of a disadvantage there as it was seldom chasing.
The discrepancy in Camel pilot reports vs Dr. 1 pilot reports, for turn performance, could even be as simple as one plane having a newer engine than the other; since these were the days when time between overhauls was measured in dozens of hour, it could easily be that a Camel which had been flying all week with the same engine would have a disadvantage against a Dr.1 with a freshly-overhauled engine, and same thing the other way around, thus leading to a possible discrepancy.
absolutely right.
@@Telamon8 Camel also had three different engines, depending on sub type. The Germans lacked castor oil for the rotary engines, they had more reliability issues and shot-down Allied planes often had their engines taken for German use.
The DR1 was a master’s fighter mainly suited to pilots who could capitalize on its eerie flat turning capability and sudden climb capabilities. Read up on Werner Voss, maybe the greatest DR1 pilot (imo, the dogfight that killed Voss very likely would have killed Richthofen as well). Both of them were able to fly to the triplane’s strengths and brilliant enough to overcome the speed deficit.
I am not going to speculate on who was the better fighter pilot, both were superb! And yes I agree the air battle that Voss lost would have done in the Baron as well! Against that many opponents, they only had to be lucky once! And they were quite good opponents!
His only real chance was to have attempted to escape, but he apparently forgo several opportunities in order to continue the fight!
Combat fatigue or just overconfidence?
@@mahbriggs I think Voss was the more skilled flyer, but Richthofen probably would have avoided getting into that dogfight in the first place.
@@jeremypnet Richthofen's tactic was to use his aircraft engine as a bullet proof shield and to fly directly at the enemy plane.
@@mahbriggsAlthough escaping in something as slow as the Dr1 against something as fast as the SE5a would have been a challenge in its own right.
@@heneagedundas
Agreed!
Perhaps why he did not try.
I am just repeating what the attacking pilots stated in the after action reports.
I have read several differing accounts of the battle over the years. Some quite confusing, none of them the same!
Not surprising, a lot happened very quickly under a lot of stress!
“During WWI, aircraft design was happening so rapidly that it was outpacing aircraft understanding.” A great line, that basically summarizes the video. Thanks again for your deep insights Greg, always a pleasure.
I have seen several in person, and in museums, and I never ever cease to be amazed at how small it actually was. the first time I saw one on the wall at a museum in Germany I thought it was a 1/4 scale model..... no, that's its actual size.
Saw a B17 at the Museum of Flight in Seattle and it seemed amazingly small, especially next to an F4.
@@Justanotherconsumer It's really funny seeing modern "small" tactical fighters like the F-18, F-16, MiG-29 etc fly formation with 4-engine bombers of WW2 and realize just how close in size they are, with comparable bomb loads.
In 1969,as a kid I visited Old Rhinebeck. There was a Bleriot fastened vertically to a wall of one of the sheds. Absolutely tiny airplane. First time I smelled aircraft dope. There was a guy fixing the wing of an SE5. The memory sticks with me .
@@100thdragoonI still remember info on the side of the box of the first F-4 model that I built as a kid: "...over twice the bomb load of a B-17..."
My theory as to why people thought thin wings = more speed is that they decrease the frontal area and thus produce less drag.
Some high speed jets used razor thin wings, most notably the F104 Starfighter.
Well things get weird when you approach mach 1.
@@philiphumphrey1548 The F-104's wing isn't that thin, remember that thickness is considered relative to the chord and the Starfighter's wings are tiny. The unique part is that the leading edges are sharpened instead of being rounded.
As an example, the F-104 has a consistent thickness-to-chord ratio of 3.5%, the F-4's thickness ratio decreases from 6.4% at the root to just 3% at the tip.
@@smittywjmj The chord of the F-104 is very long, though. It's wings actually are quite thin relative to their chord. The sharp leading and trailing edges and thin wing improve supersonic drag dramatically at the expensive of massively increased subsonic induced drag.
@@J7Handle It's thin, just not incredibly so. It's a consistent 3.5% ratio across the span, which is thicker than many tapered wings at the tips. The F-105 has a 3.7% tip, the F-4 is just 3% at the tip. Of course, neither of these planes have wingtip hardpoints like the F-104. The F-5 has a thicker 4.8% ratio for a more direct comparison, and which is still fairly thin.
Basically I'm only saying that the phrase "razor thin" is hyperbolic and perhaps misunderstanding the sharpened leading edge.
1) The death of Baron Manfred von Richthofen actually had nothing to do with the Fokker Dr. 1.
2) The Baron was Prussian aristocracy.
3) Oswald Boelcke was the first professional fighter pilot. He was the first one to develop dogfighting rules. Literally he was the father of dogfighting!
4) Captain Oswald Boelcke taught Baron Manfred von Richthofen.
5) The cause of Baron Manfred von Richthofen's death goes back to when he flew an Albatros D.V. During a dogfight he was severely wounded in his head. He was never the same. His flying skills, decision making, personality and more.
6) After each dogfight he was laid up a long time in terrible pain.
7) With the new person he became everyone was very concerned about him. His family begged and pleaded for him to be released from the military due to all of his problems since being shot in the head.
8) Despite his health, Baron Manfred von Richthofen refused to stop and no one forced the issue for his sake.
9) When he was shot flying the Dr 1 he was violating the rules he had for everyone including himself. He flew over the oppositions trenches. He was hit with one round that killed him. He still managed to land the plane albeit a was a bit rough. The landing carriage would need to have been repaired.
10) Souvenir hunters decimated the plane. There was very little left.
Please forgive me any typos, grammatical/spelling errors or errors other errors as I am only human and not an A.I. All information was cited in good faith.
Forgive me but I am working on memory.
There are things so deep and complex that only intuition can reach it in our stage of development as human beings.
WW1 is by far my favorite era of military aviation. To have Greg provide a technical analysis of what made a plane like the Dr.1 tick is absolutely amazing. Thank you sir, your videos are a joy for those of us who enjoy learning about the quantifiable performance characteristics and engineering behind these magnificent machines.
Mr. Greg must not sleep with all this awesome content he puts out. It’s not like it’s something simple, I could get an engineering degree with how detailed the videos are. The research is beyond adequate, it’s AMAZING!!! Thank you Greg for all your dedicated work.
Yes, it seems unlikely that Greg sleeps. And I hope he doesn't start
The DR-1 doesn't have wire bracing. All of the other planes before the DR-1 had a bunch of wires crisscrossing between struts and wings. The DR-1 doesn't . The wings are short wingspan, and if you look inside the wing there are TWO different spruce wood spars from wingtip to wingtip that are the main backbone of the wings. Most wings had just one. That means the three wings are strong enough to hold up without any wires to stiffen them up. All those wires are drag that is missing on the Fokker DR-1.
Indeed, Anthony Fokker wasn't even going to put those single post braces between the wingtips, but that scared the pilots. So simple post braces were put out there to keep the pilots happy.
-It was Hugo Junkers that developed the thick wing section with it much higher CLmax etc that made the unbraced monoplane possible. He had focused on metal construction and a monoplane. Junkers wanted to reduced drag by getting rid of bracing so he had thick wing sections tested that could a thick enough spar and was delighted by the much lower induced drag and higher CLmax of the thicker sections. Anthony Fokker was working for Junkers at the time and basically stole the Junkers technology and applied it.
-The Aerodynamics at Goetingen also claimed the discovery which is due to Reynolds effects but Junkers got things moving. .
Drag was also decreased by the Dr.I's lack of bracing wires. Excellent analysis as always.
That's one thing I noticed in the pictures of it, pretty clean lines between the wings compared to others.
The beauty of the thicker wing design was the internal bracing, making the bracing wires redundant.
I´d also say that having such short wings helped the plane to achieve low radial stability, something that the ace pilots reportedly loved, and the rookie pilots hated. Especially due to the rotary engine that amplified the gyro effect when its RPMs changed.
Ludwig Prandtl carried out his aerodynamic investigations in the wind tunnel of the AVA (Aerodynamische Versuchsanstalt, today: DLR) in Göttingen on Bunsenstraße. Later, there was also a building of the Aerodynamische Versuchsanstalt at the air base in Göttingen (where the Horten brothers carried out trials).
Snoopy always got shot down flying his Sopwith Camel doghouse against the Red Baron's Fokker.
The doghouse variant of the Camel had lousy aerodynamics and Snoopy was a noob.
Always figured Snoopy fought in a Bristol Fighter. He engaged the Red Baron with a flexible gun mounting.
Doghouses don't have a very good a rate of climb.
I only came to the comment section looking for Snoopy. Thanks.
@@TheSaturnVthe power to weight is pretty lousy.
A dog isn’t even a single horsepower, and there’s almost nothing helping the dog transfer power to the craft.
7:44 I remember this airfoil profile discussed in an aerodynamics book I read while trying to find a thesis. Thin wings are good at low reynolds number but at high speeds, the thicker ones have most of the wing in turbulent air, which has lower viscous pressure drag at higher reynolds number (i.e. higher speeds).
I have 2 RC models of the DR1. They are extremely agile, climb quickly and turn swiftly with rudder input. They are a bit scary to fly actually and keep me on my toes. I'm a retired mechanical engineer (Boeing) and appreciate your analysis and data review. I actually have a obsession with WWI biplanes. I have over a half dozen RC models of various makes.
There are two terms which relate to the reasons for the triplane phenomenon:
-illusion of causality: This is where something appears on the surface to be the cause of some other effect, but isn't.
-misattribution of causation: This is where someone believes an effect to have a specific cause, when their belief is incorrect. In this case, it's people falling for the illusion.
Brilliant. Thank you, that's a really good way of putting it.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Glad to help!
WW1 gets far too often overlooked these days, and I've read this book and many others, and so knew the truth about the Dr.1, glad to see more videos sharing this info and more on WW1. There was a lot of innovation and things tried, and many misconceptions about what did and did not work and why, as this very perfectly highlights.
I remember writing a "How To" article for the game "Rise of Flight" on how to turn left in a DR1. The DR1 could out turn everything in a right hand turn but an enemy player knew to try to force a left hand turn against a DR1. The reason why most people would not want to turn left is the gyroscopic procession of the rotary engine would immediately cause the nose to climb and induce a stall in a left hand banking turn. The paper I wrote changed that dynamic as people could now even out turn planes to the left and it took away any left hand turn advantage any inline engine plane had.
Good points and well made. From a "Rise of Flight" perspective, the DR I is THE superlative dogfighter - but, you can't catch anything that don't want to be caught, and you cant disengage from a bad situation. Already by late 1917, for myself anyway, speed is king.
For me it was the day the US successfully used energy fighting techniques vs Japanese zeroes for fighters, and for bombers an early mosquito raid, not sure which.
I have read that one of the things about the Sopwith Camel was that it's larger rotary engine and corresponding torque gave it the ability to make much tighter turns to the right than the left. So if a pilot got into a turning fight that frequently gave him an advantage.
It also made them predictable, if they saw tracers they'd always bank right, so could be followed easily with the guns with rudder input and that forewarning.
Hence these things aren't so simple when analysing the effectiveness. Especially since doctrine has a huge effect.
In ww2 the US developed on german energy fighting techniques to counter A6M fighters (zeros) as they were superior in every way other than speed. This rendered the zero effectively obsolete in fighter combat. However, this unfortunately had the effect of the Japanese putting them in a far more cost effective role than any amount of dogfighting- kamikaze. Less pilots and aircraft were lost per sortie and it inflicted huge losses on allied forces and was not cost effective to counter- a huge volume of AA fire was the best solution found, and severely restricted the allied navies operational freedom.
My point being is an advantage's strength is only measurable with regards to its countermeasure.
I love how this guy had a different quality microphone for every single one of his videos
Fokker was a remarkable character and his company with his name too. Anthony Fokker was Dutch, born in the Dutch East Indies, now Indonesia, and somehow ended up in Germany building warplanes for the German emperor. Somewhere around 1918 Fokker saw the writing on the wall and somehow managed to clandestinely smuggle his airplane factory by freight train to Holland, where he established Fokker again and build early airliners.
Well done, as expected!
I was surpised that you didn't mention wingtip vortices as another disadvantage for the triplane. 3 wings ought to result in a 50% increase in that source of drag, over the biplane.
Given the short, fat wings of the Dr.1, the resulting drag should be all the greater .....
They got rid of a lot of drag by not having to have as many bracing struts and wires. Those things create far more drag than most people realize. A low thickness to chord ratio doesn't have much in the way of drag reducing benefits until much higher speeds are reached.
@@Ensign_Cthulhu That was in the video.
Wingtip votices are something different.
As a simple layman and history buff I would like to say your explanation of the engineering, designs and performance is excellent and well presented. Thank you.
I usually find I'm learning something new from your videos Greg. This was yet another one!
Thanks for another fascinating historic aviation documentary.
Another factor in the DR-1's favor is that the wings don't require external support-- note the lack of flying wires. The outboard struts, AFAIK, were added for psychological and political reasons. Being able to deal with torsional stresses without external bracing was a big advance.
The DR 1s had a catastrophic problem with structural integrity, they were repeatedly pulled from service due to wing failures, improvements in quality control didn't fix the problem.
The outboard struts were an absolute necessity, you'd want to reinforce the wings at much as possible and not overstress them during flight.
Did you know that when the prototype was rolled out of the hanger for the first time, the Test Pilot who had never seen it flat out refused to fly it dictating that the upper wing would fall off due to only the struts by the fuselage supporting it. Herr Folker promptly rolled it back into the hanger to modify it. The struts near the wing tips are COSMETIC, absolutely not needed for structural strength. They were installed only to appease the Test Pilot without his knowledge!
"Turn like the devil, shoot straight from the sun
Climb like a monkey out of hell where I belong""
Iron Maiden's brilliant song about it - from Book of souls - Death or glory - Loved how Bruce used the real quote.. and it's a cracking song...
There IS a rotary engine powered DR1 replica at the Old Rheinbeck aerodrone in upstate NY. However, they use their radial or opposed engine powered replica in their air shows. The rotary engine is just to unreliable to fly, they just run it up on the ground for demo.
That's interesting.
Do you know if contemporary rotary engines were also so unreliable way back then?
It makes sense now to use a radial if the rotary is too unreliable because the air frame will be so rare.
@@localbod Well they had their disadvantges, such as a totally waste oil system, the hollow crankshaft served as the intake manifold which limited the possible horsepower, and the engine mount was a bearing that probably wore out very quickly. The A/P's at Rheinbeck were good at maintaining the engines, but it was a lot of work. Also the rotary engines used castor oil, and the oil spray had the same effect on the pilots as drinking it. I guess the Red Baron wore diapers!
@@KennethScharf Thank you for your very knowledgeable reply.
I knew they got sprayed with a lot of oil but I never realised that!
The 'Incontinent Baron' doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
👍😎
Power regulation during landing with a rotary engine required a 'blip switch'. Essentially you slowed down for landing by cutting the magneto in and out. The thing is, while the ignition may be cut off, the fuel flow was still open and could accumulate within the cowling. It may be ignited when the spark came back on.
Greg has way too much fun finding all these wonderful pictures of his subjects. These were fantastic.
I never knew this, and I know a lot.
I remember reading something. It explained that the triplane had a unique advantage of each wing having a different stall speed. The faster wing would stall quicker. The slower wing would aid fast short take-off. Making the plane almost impossible to stall. I often wondered why this phenomenon was not utilized more for Carrier planes. Why not now?
Burt Rutan's designs used front canards to the same affect.
Modern monoplane designs use wing washout to achieve a more gradual stall. The root of the wing is at a higher angle of incidence than the tip, meaning the root stalls first while the ailerons are still effective.
The term I’ve heard used for doing something because it worked elsewhere but with a lack of understanding of why is “glomming”, as in “glomming onto an idea”
The Sopwith Camel could do "whip turns" to the right because its engine acted like a huge gyroscope. In fact to turn the plane, you had to turn 90 degrees to your projected flight path, just like with a gyroscope.
I really need to talk about this one day.
I went to Reinbeck NY for an airshow with Dr1, d7, sopwith camel and more as a kid, 50+ years ago. Thanks for bringing back those memories, and presenting your data so well.
Interference drag can be a bit better explained in layman terms, if I may. Each wing crates a high pressure zone underneath it, and low pressure one above it, so putting another wing on top of your wing means your first low pressure area is impacted by the upper wing's high pressure area. They literally degrade each other's lift generation.
This is the reason you'll see biplanes (and triplanes) with the wings staggered longitudinally, with the top wing placed ahead of the low wing. Staggering them this way staggers their pressure influence zones and reduces interference. You could stagger them the other way (top wing behind low wing), but that would put the top wing in the wake of the low wing at high alpha.
Beechcraft Stagger Wing is opposite bi plane wings
@@salex5442 To maximize the pilot's forward visibility, apparently.
This wouldn't explain how interference drag can be generated where a wing intersects the fuselage.
@@axelandersson6314 It does, actually: the fuselage has its own pressure field not unlike a wing, but more importantly, it has physical volume, and sits right in the middle of the wing, where the lift would otherwise be the highest, completely impeding airflow.
@@Æhere11 That is a completely different explanation to the one you gave initially. Your initial explanation also would predict that you could eliminate the increased interference drag of a tri plane design completely if your wings are sufficiently staggered, and this wouldn't be the case if we assume your second explanation is correct.
When I was young and dumb, post WWII, I was That Kid who asked too many Q's.
So, inevitable, Why Three Wings?
Answer. The plane could make it back home no matter how badly the wings were torn up. There was still sufficient lift.
We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing
As a novice of aviation, I very much enjoy your videos but I get this uneasy feeling going back to my college days.....that at the end of the lecture you are going to hand out a pop quiz to see who paid attention....
More WW1 content please Greg!!!
It's coming at you very soon. If this video does well, then I'll do another WW1 video in the next month or so.
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles thanks Greg!!
Well, I now know what plane Iron Maiden was talking about in their song Death or Glory:
"...outside you will fear my name
I ride a blood red triplane
Turn like the devil
Shoot straight from the sun
Climb like a monkey
Out of hell where I belong..."
Pretty good song, as far as their new stuff goes...
Thanks for the video Greg
Iced Earth did a good song about the red baron as well....Im a huge Maiden fan😉👍
@jasonrackawack9369 Just checked it out, not bad. I had heard of Iced Earth but never listened to them till now.
Nobody can touch maiden though🫡
Regarding induced drag, this is primarily generated by tip vortices, of which a triplane has six
Just to show how you can over-do a good idea; Fokker insisted that his head designer Reinhold Platz follow up the Dr.1 with a quintuplane, reasoning that five wings would be even better than three. Even Fokker had trouble flying this abomination and it was quickly rolled into a hanger and forgotten about. Btw, stunt pilot Frank Tallman flew both the Dr.1 and Sopwith Tripe and said that the Sopwith "club sandwich" was much nicer to fly.
Given the 'Tripehound' was mostly out of service before the DR1 was operational (not including the two prototypes), are there any reports of the two ever meeting in combat? The prototype Sopwith Triplane was over the Western Front in mid 1916 - by the time the Germans decided they wanted a copy, the concept was more or less obsolete, as engineering and design had caught biplanes up.
@@thosdot6497 I've never come across any accounts of the two meeting in combat. Only about 140 Tripes were produced, which shows what an impact its performance had. Also, the Dr.1 was suspended from operations because of a series of fatal crashes; by the time it was restored to service the Tripe had been replaced by the Camel.
You literally turned my world upside down: i, like many others i'd wager, thought that the winning solution was the triplane configuration...thank you again Greg for another scientific, clarifying, informative, deeply researched vid!!!👏👏👏
Perhaps the shorter span of a Triplane was also chosen by Reinhold Platz (Fokkers designer) to give confidence to the then very unusual unbraced cantilever wing design. It used a novel lightweight built up box spar. It was the fact it was glued together that gave Fokker the quality control problems. Conventional braced thin wing designs used solid wood spars.
The layout for the earlier Sopwith triplane was in part chosen as for a given wing area it gave narrower chord wings for better pilot combat visibility.
"Someone might try something and it would work but the reason it worked would be misunderstood and cause subsequent projects to go off in the wrong direction I'm sure there's a name in engineering or human factors for this sort of phenomenon but I don't know what it is."
This is applicable even for today.
There is a word for this phenomenon, but it contains slurs within a phrase.
@1:45 Likely because of bad logic due to Confirmation Bias. The Fallacy that fits this problem would be Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.
I’m actually pretty impressed at how good the CD0 and lift to drag ratio were, given the limited understanding of aerodynamics at the time. These guys were literally inventing the entire science as they went!
I'm probably wrong, but the 3rd wing acted like a kite or wind drag? They wanted to get above planes and attack whilst flying down, so if doing a u turn to go back up, the wind would force the plane back, so they could get a tighter upturn?
They were designed to get high, shoot down, then get high again?
16:28 Let's not forget the Fokker and North American connection, making the Fokker Dr.1 connected to the P-51 Mustang and F-86 Sabre.
I loved all the photos from Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome. I got to go there in 1981 and hope to go again someday.
Thats how I think when I go out for a beer. One beer is good, two is bether there for 15+ must be awesom!
I'll be darned! I never new anyone built triplanes other than the Germans. Imagine my surprise when I hear the Sopwith Triplane came out first!. Just goes to prove the old adage... you never too old to learn something new. Excellent job sir.
1:22 : “Meta”
VERY interesting! It is a bit of a mystery why most early airfoils were so thin. Surely they could not have been worried about frontal area, as these machines were really draggy to begin with. The bird analogy is as good as any to explain it. Thin wing airfoils don't lend themselves to sturdy wing structures, either, at least at that time period. Thanks for the video!
It's one of those counterintuitive things that seems to make sense but is wrong at least some of the time. It just seems like thinner should be better and as we found out in the trans-sonic days, is better at higher speeds but at lower speeds, thicker and more rounded can be much better.
its down to wind tunnel results.
The nature of the wind tunnels back then showed that the very thin wings were better than thicker wings.
The airplane builders went with the wind tunnel results.
Into the 60s, Wind tunnels were leading aero guys to place podded jet engines as far away from the wings as possible- interference drag.
CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) showed that the engines could be snuggled right against the bottom of the wing.
Wind tunnel testing data of that proved that the CFD data was correct.
There was another factor in maneuverability and that was engine torque. The Camel for one had a very high torque to the right that helped it turn better to the right and less to the left. It is one of the two reasons for the nickname Camel. As a Camel 🐪 is known to bite you as you ride it. The second was the slight hump where the twin machine guns were located. A Sopwith Camel was hard to control for novice pilots.
The Camel was a progression from the Sopwith Triplane which had some design problems for maintenance such as the placement of the fuel tank.
I am surprised that the RAF S.E. 5A wasn’t discussed. It was one of the fastest WWI aircraft with a 20 mph advantage over the Fokker triplane and one of the longer time in front line service as well including post war. Not as maneuverable as either the Camel or Fokker Triplane but had the speed to to enter or retreat as necessary.
I was about to make the same comment about the camel's rotary engine gyroscopic effect, but your comment had more detail.
@@MyMongo100 Thank you
I think the triplane design was developed more to cope with the fact that wing design was oriented towards ones of thinner section and the only way to get enough surface with good strength was to stack shorter wings. You notice this also if you look to the monoplanes of the time, they used guy wires stretching from the wings to a "mast" in the center of the fuselage and to the carriage beneath
Great video, very interesting new informations for me Greg! 🙂 Maybe the Fokker D.VIII should get an own video in the future?
It's amazing having ww1 aircraft engineering explained by dagoth Ur! Love your voice mate, carry on🎉
5:29 the Sopwith Camel also suffered from aerodynamic issues, what with it being a doghouse and all...
As a Naval aviator (long retired) with a good amount of electrical engineering and as a maintenance test pilot, Gregg in my view is great. I have flowed his videos for about 3 years. He is great.
excellent video and good useable information (for me) .... my full scale replica: it is slow, it is near impossible to see out of on the ground, in the air its not much better for visibility...you end up lifting a wing to see "around the corner" ... I can only fly it for about 25 minutes and begin getting tired...you have to hold a good amount of forward stick to keep it from climbing. Takeoffs require you to lift the tail early in the run to see where you're going...lots of rudder and some right aileron to keep her level...takeoff run is short; on landing you can come in very high pull power and dive steeply, it doesn't pick up much speed...on rollout keep forward stick to see ahead and let the tail down slowly; and then you're blind again!
Thanks, it's nice to hear from someone with a replica.
Greg, you are up there with the best professors I studied under in college. Indeed, your videos should count as college credit.
Personally I would rather like to fly SE5A with the ability to fly fast and high. To have the option to choose if I want to fight or just use the speed and avoid the fight if odds were against me. Not many German planes could catch it. Other option would be SPAD XIII.
Greg: you never cease to impress! Thanks again for a well developed video!
The Red Baron was shot down bcs he flew too low .... too close to infantry- weapons ... and hehad ignored the doctors advice NOT TO ENTER AND FLY before his head-injury had not completly healed....
97 / 5,000
Great to see the best channel on youtube adding new videos this often again. Thank you!
There was a really good reason why most planes during WW1 was biplanes. While monoplanes in principle is the clearly better design (i don´t know to what extent that was known at the time) the main reason for a bi plane was to proved additional strength to wings that in most cases was built of poor to medium quality wood
Basically the wings of a WW1 fighters basically acted like the upper and lower spar of a conventional wings, with wires binding them together.Basically just needed 2 wires on each wing and a spar. (while most planes had twice that). compare that to a monoplane of the era that had loads of wires and even needed a small tower to connect them to.
The "other" wing is basically just a stabilization beam for the first wing. And just making it a wing have basically no drawback. Some planes in the end of the war had a very tiny lower wing that was there basically only as braising.
Me knowing that since.. well i was pretty young, the 3 wing planes never made any sense to me. The middle wing doing basically nothing, apart from adding weight and drag.
Maybe its as simple as this was not known at the time, or there was some other reason.
What is really strange was that triwings was still made in the early 1920 when it really should be known that there was no point in it.
So basically basically basically'ying
Simply put, the bays formed between the struts and bracing wires of a biplane turns those two wings into a open wing box for structural strength.
It has nothing to do with the quality of the wood. It's because fabric skin provides no structural strength. On a metal or wood-skinned wing, the skin provides a substantial amount of strength to supplement the wing spar.
HA! The Triplane at 15:24 was of a reproduction flown at Rhinebeck... The Olde Rhinebeck Aerodrome near Kingston, NY. I'd recognize the Hotel d' Paris scenery any day!! The annual Mid-Hudson Giant Scale RC Jamboree alongside their full scale counterparts is a must see for any early aviation fan. I'm hoping to fly my 1/3 scale Sopwith Pup up there again sometime soon! Thanks again, Greg, this was a fun episode!
The Bristol fighter avoided interference drag as neither wing met the fuselage.
Every single one of those struts, braces and wires creates interference drag both where they meet the wing and also where they meet the fuselage.
That was probably the designiner's intent, but the center of the lower wing was so close to the bottom of the fuselage that it still produced interference drag and probably minimum lift.
Thanks for scratching a long-endured historical itch. Good work!
A couple of points. The Germans in WW1 were remarkably derivavtive in aircraft design. The French were acknowledged leaders and at the war's beginning there were few indigenous German designs. As well as the triplane, the Germans followed the sesquiplane layout due to influence from the Nieuport 11 and 17.
Secondly, it is worth understanding that in WW1, especially before late 1917/18 it was VERY easy to make your aircraft fall apart in the air. Some of the best aircraft were simply those that could be pushed pretty hard without the wings falling off.
Personal note, Voss was probably better than Richtofen.
Uhm what about the VII? Judged better then any of the allied aircraft and end of the war. So much so they were ordered destroyed
Didn't I just make a DVII video a few weeks ago?
@@kirkstinson7316 Is this a reply to me? Yes, certainly the Germans eventually found their mojo (does Fokker count as German?) and the wood laminate construction method they used was their own. The DVII was of course a part of the blossoming of new German designs in the last year of the war... a year too late to really help.
But their readiness to follow Allied design leads was real. The Albatros DV was really not improved by copying the sesquiplane layout, and the Triplane was a dead end, coming into service as the Allies were getting rid of it.
Doctor Hugo Junkers had studied thick profile wings since 1909. After IIdFlieg forced him to join with Fokker , his wing profiles were used in Dr.1 Foker D VIi amd Fokker D VIII. Meanwhilw the Jumkers D I , an all metal monoplane fighter which was years ahead of everything else was put in production too late to take part in the war.
Greg, you really have to stop. I learn so much from these videos, it's just maddening.
I guess I'll just have to keep watching.
Another factor not to be forgotten is that a thicker wing makes it possibly to build it stronger which in turn reduces the amount of exposed support structure.
With a triplane you can have a shorter wingspan which could be an advantage on the ground, and at the time of "the first minor disagreement" (stolen from Auto Shenanigans) the airfields near the front weren't much more than farming fields. The closer you are to the front the shorter the turnaround time is.
Just taking a look at the whole picture can provide other reasons for the designs than purely aerodynamic reasons.
Very informative video, Greg - thank you. The fact about the Red Baron I find scariest, is that when he was shot down and killed, he was aged just 25.
He was killed by ground fire (a lucky shot), he managed to land the plane safely.
From what been able to find, Lentnant Josef Jacobs was the highest scoring pilot in the Fokker Dr1, scoring over 30 of his eventual score of 48 in the type. Jacobs survived the war and died in 1978 at age of 84. (My source: Above the lines by Noman L.R. Franks, Frank W. Bailey & Russell Guest )
I guess the Dr.1 is so popular in the media because we don't have triplanes today. The WW1 monoplanes are interesting as well, though they're hardly mentioned, if they're acknowledged at all.
✔️Yes, and that's why during the early WW1 period, I almost developed a "quadplane" and even a "quintplane". According to my 1915 slide rule and abacus computations, 4 or 5 stacked wings would've greatly increased climb rate to 1,000 feet per sec. Also it's liftoff speed wouldve been so low it wouldve taken off sitting still with no wind.
? In the WW1 replica community, everyone on their mother builds Dr.1's
awesome analysis. I had never heard any of this, and I have been oggling WWONE planes for decades. Truly awesome.
Baby wipes are made of chocolate stardust.
I have never held a particular interest in the mechanics of planes, beyond flying them in games like the WW1 Warfighters VR game, and I got randomly recommended this video, probably because I was a fan of Sabaton's song and aforementioned VR game.
have to say, you made a really nice point concisely and without losing me, and I wish more videos were like yours. Very understandable for the layperson as well.
Great video, and I would rather hear a real voice mispronouncing occasionally than an AI voice spewing God-knows-what.
I think it’s just a shitty mic tbh.
It may have been built in small numbers, but a comparison with the Fokker DVI might have been illuminating, as it was virtually a DR1 with a biplane layout.