The most intense interview in the history of Jazz
Vložit
- čas přidán 5. 06. 2020
- In 1985, Herbie Hancock and Wynton Marsalis had a very public disagreement in a joint interview for Musician Magazine. It was very shortly after Wynton threw some serious shade on pop music...this is the story.
You'll find the full interview in the anthology 'Keeping Time: Readings in Jazz History', available here: www.amazon.ca/Keeping-Time-Re...
Rockit (Herbie Hancock): • Herbie Hancock - Rocki...
Think of One (Wynton Marsalis): • Knozz-Moe-King (the album that won Wynton a grammy in 1985
Miles hit him with the "who asked?" LMAO
You presented the quotes as if they had twitter back in 85' - That made me chuckle. Good video.
Thanks!
I thought it was just confusing. There’s no need to ‘modernize’ it or try to give it any other appearance or context. They were not tweets.
@@andybaldman You're right about that as well.
Wynton will always be remembered as a skilled player who tried to revive the fading jazz styles of the 1950s and early 1960s. Herbie will always be remembered as a bold innovator who helped create multiple new music styles, implemented new music technology and pushed the boundries of jazz and funk.
Agreed. Your 2 points are well made. But if you got baptized in jazz in the early 50’s as I was fortunate enough to, it can be difficult to appreciate the 60’s fusion guys and the road Coltrane took.
Although I enjoyed a few groups- for example WeatherReport- because their music was fun to listen to. I’m only 84 yo and I can still enjoy it
And look where its been pushed to ... garbage in everyones ears. Constant and everywhere. Good job Herb.
@@TheJudgeOfGood 98% of all art is not so great. There was plenty of lousy music in the past, just as there is now. The genre label doesn't mean a type of music is good or bad, there is both in all genres.
@@TheJudgeOfGood there's great music everywhere you just don't look for it. Music changes constantly you have to keep up with it and you will probably be much happier musically
@@TheJudgeOfGood Herbie had nothing to do with that. I don’t think the average Billboard chart listener is bumping Head Hunters.
I’d agree with Wynton if he wasn’t so opposed to avant-garde music. I don’t like middle-of-the-road types who complain about pop music, but then also complain about music being too avant-garde and lacking rules.
Something the guy in the video fails to mention is that Herbie had a series of experimental jazz fusion records before his funk phase, very much in the style of Miles Davis’ “In A Silent Way” and “Bitches Brew”.
Wynton hated that music just as much as he hated pop.
Marsalis didn't just attack popular jazz music like jazz fusion, he attacked the more spiritual and free jazz movements of the 60's, like Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, and Albert Ayler "because it doesn't swing," even though it still retained the improvisational aspects
Marsalis no play over de riddim changes, bro. Brother Wynton wants to sound like Bix...even 40 years later...
He was very insistent on the traditional form of jazz, which is his right, but he can be condescending towards those who do things others ways. Both WM and HH are fascinating to listen to.
Indeed. Wynton calls the free jazz players "primitivists", as if they have no mastery of their instruments.
I had hoped, at one point as he matured, that Wynton would realize that some free jazz players have an incredible control of what they play, and that, even if they didn't, you don't necessarily need virtuosic chops to make moving and relevant music.
@@CrandMackerel As a composer, the technique of the player matters 0, what matters is exclusively the sound, technique is just a tool to get the sound you want. The best Jazz player on earth doesn't have to be able to play anything tough, he has to be able to play the right things well, I think even miles is a bit like that, his chops never impressed me, but he's so clearly above Marsalis level as a musician.
Btw, to make things clear, for most people technique is much much easier than musicality, even if they don't think so, it's easier to be a virtuoso than it is even knowing what to play when improvising, requires much less time and knowledge, technique is just lifting a couple of muscles, musicality is doing a phd about what even is the best design for such tasks and how muscles even function. You can have a lot of muscle, but it ain't some stupid dude that happens to lift weights everyday that will be capable of doing the really tough mental work, anybody can lift weights everyday, but to understand some things you need to be very wise.
This was a great video, please make more !!
I will never forgive Ken Burns and Wynton for telling the world in Burn's documentary on jazz that all jazz styles created after 1966 were worthless and "not real jazz." They did a huge disservice to all the jazz players who were post-1966 innovators.
Wynton‘s beef with Miles and popular music goes way back. There is a story that when wynton met Miles for the first time as a young and upcoming musician. Miles looked at Wynston, who was wearing a smoking and getting ready for a gig, and then he simply said: „so you are the guy they have sent to clean this shit up!“ and just left the room.
Wynton is 20x the musician Miles was. I dont think theres ever been a more overrated player than Miles.
@@TheJudgeOfGood no man sorry but Miles has a lot of good compositions (even if he had stolen some) and has a fantastic sound, so unique and fragile, beautiful.
@@TheJudgeOfGood Whats a good musician to you?
@@TheJudgeOfGoodlmao the judge of good says there's never been a more overrated player than Miles. GTFO
No one owns music. And the artform is not supposed to be a competition. It's all about individualism and what you contribute to life. Sure, as a jazz fan, I sense and respect it's genius, but the rest of the general public are not Beatniks or into fast odd time signatures or syncopation. Sometimes you have to put that genius ego in check and dumb yourself down in order for others to relate. Your audience just want to be happy and don't want to be impressed by your genius unless it can improve their lives. All the music greats before us didn't save the world but instead made life and mankind more tolerable.
Ya Winton is snobbish with his takes on Jazz.He came off that way with Terry Lynn Carrington's father who has great takes on Jazz.Wynton brushed him off as if he didn't know what he was talking about.Wynton wouldn't even let him make his point and just walked away.The boy has a problem.Arrogance didn't have anything to do with the birth of Jazz.
Dead accurate. My brother is the bass player for The Walters. His favorite bass player is James Jamerson (obviously lol he tha 🐐), it’s not like they like making music for 17 year old girls but, a platinum record is a platinum record. Objectively- any song that’s got 1,000,000 plays… c’mon brahhh! These old heads are straight up delusional sometimes maaaaan it’s disappointing tbh. I wanna know what Brandon think’s… (Not Biden and the fact I need too say that is waaaack). Did he ever weigh in on this Twitter beef pre Twitter?? Wynton gt chill tf out. Music evolves. Like, is he not aware he’s sampled tf out?? 😂
@@richardlawrence3770 Oh snap! I heard about that but, never knew if it was real. Aight. Dudes got a problem 💯. ✌️!!
not saying he can't play, but name a timeless and universally appreciated wynton marsalis album. i'll wait.
Black Codes
Standard Time series
really interesting video, and awesome channel. youre so well spoken and the production, framing, research, genuineness, all of it is great. i love what youre doing and i really hope to see your channel grow
Hey thanks Billy - here's hoping! Thanks for checking it out.
Wynton continues to epitomize what Miles criticized, playing the same tired riffs over and over. Jazz, from Dixieland through bebop through fusion, isn’t about that. It is creative, alive, changing, evolving. Miles is the quintessential example of that
You know we can honor Miles and Wynton both. Why is it so often that when it comes to Black Musicians we are so often expected to pick one or the other?
@@ewil1219 congrats. You managed to make this about race. Lololol. Like white players aren’t subject to the same type of inane comparisons.
@@ER-me1ii I didn't make it about race. I just pointed out what is painfully obvious to me. When it comes to celebrity or accomplishment concerning Blacks, we are so often expected to pick one camp over the other, and not allowed to comfortably enjoy and honor both. Some people are obliviously comfortable and accepting of that. I am not.
@@ER-me1ii it's always about Race in America. There are those who acknowledge the truth and those who don't...
Change the record already.
Wynton wasn't talking about Miles or Herbie. He was talking about his own personal need to sound as self-righteous and pretentious as possible. Herbie and Miles were right to react. They were/are geniuses who made Jazz what it is. Wynton is an over-rated fanboy who was given too many awards at too young an age before he actually innovated anything... and then he never did.
Of course, they had a right to react. However, your claim that he didn't innovate a single thing before his older years is false. Black Codes from the Underground is a massive album in today's jazz scene. He released that at 25 and performed it with others earlier when he was 24.
@@rayid2003 For the last 30 years or so, he seems to have disavowed Jazz since 1945. And he certainly hasn't paid the respect deserved by geniuses like Trane or Miles. Maybe I'm just bitter about how bad the 90's PBS series, "Jazz" was, and how it was basically a totally biased 10 hour interview with Wynton about how everyone since Louis Armstrong is a fraud.
Black Codes was one of the greatest jazz records of the 1980’s. And there are others; Wynton’s first record, Live at Blues Alley, and J Mood were all great.
If you think Wynton is overrated ... you have no idea what a good musician is. He plays circles around Miles in every way except missing notes and be cracked out.
@TheJudgeOfGood Lolololololol you are quite mad, and totally wrong. 😂😂😂🎉🎉
Your videos are so awesomely interesting !!!! Great video
Stevie Wonder, Chicago (transit Authority), Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin, Paul McCartney were among the Pop Artists that were in the top 40 in 1985. These are some of the most prolific, creative pop artists of the century. While it's true the top 40 was a mixed lot, and still is, great creativity and mediocrity, Wynton was undeniably a hardcore jazz snob and took himself too seriously. In 1983, he did a master class before a concert at my university and he trashed Miles and Freddie because they were playing modern day RnB of the time. That evening he performed on the same bill as Ramsey Lewis trio. The audience was bored to tears by Wyntons Quintet with his, "we are not entertainers" At the time, Bradford was in the quintet and never moved while he played. Wynton said they did this so not to mix serious music with entertainment. All art forms serve as entertainment even classical music. Movement of the body is the most natural thing when it flows through you. Of course, Brandford went on to play with Sting and the Tonight Show where he through that entire model of music and began shaking his booty. It's not that he was hypocritical, he grew as a person from the jazz is a serious classical music. Jazz is a very difficult music but at the end of the day, if it doesn't make you move, and they did dance to bebop, than what good is it? IF music does anything for it's listening audience, it's to let go of the stress of everyday life. While "Think of One" might have won a grammy, it wasn't because there wasn't an amazing array of master jazz musician making great music and even much better music. Wynton was a young star who could play trumpet and possessed alot of technique, the media fawned all over him and he climbed on a pulpit. There is even rumour that Freddie Hubbard, Woody Shaw and other musicians were hanging out in a club one night in NYC talking about what are they going to do with this loud mouth. I walked out of the master class totally turned off with his snobbery. His music has never resonated with me over the years. Jazz music is not the only music with complex syncopation that swings. Hell, Irish traditional music has the same rhythmic feeling as the Celts were influenced by their incursions into Africa. Today all over the internet, you are seeing a renaissance of pop and RnB music of the 70's and 80's as an entire new generation is introduced to a great period of creativity from rock to pop. To say that all pop music was geared to the lowest common denominator is being dumb, deaf and blind. 21 years of age is not a period where you imagine most humans have gained alot of wisdom. Wynton was no exception.
Man this was awesome to read. Thanks so much for sharing your experience of this - I find Wynton a really interesting study, even if I agree with very little of what he says
"the Celts were influenced by their incursions into Africa."
That sounds like some woke revisionist history.
Thanks for sharing that.
I won't say that Wynton was right across the board but if you see the sad and pathetic state that music is in today you have to admit that this ain't what Stevie Wonder, Aretha, Ray Charles etc were doing.. First The artist you mentioned were very versatile and some of the most musically gifted people in the history of the planet ! Stevie was steeped in jazz and all kinds of musical styles as well as Aretha who was a great piano player with deep gospel and blues roots in her system ! Chaka Khan is another artist that you can't pigeon hold and view her exclusively as a pop artist.. them folks could/can do whatever... bottom line is some artists make compromises to pay the bills... Some folks follow whatever is the going thing at the time so if Herbie could've made a comfortable living playing Jazz he probably would've stayed with that style but all the money and the girls are over there partying with Elvis .. " what choo gonna do freaky deeky or what"...😂- "It'sall about money ain't a damn thing funny"
@@TimBeauBennett Wynton to you is a study? ....that is racist already....Wynton is not an object!!! Advice....stop talking.
Best comment from/about these guys ever came from Miles. When he was first introduced to Marsalis: ‘here come the police” lol
It’s funny seeing Wynton disparage “forced trends”, when he himself tries to function as an arbiter of what is acceptable or not in jazz. Don’t get me wrong, he’s an awesome player who has produced a bunch of gems with a bunch of great players. I’m not knocking any of that, and whatever personal quirks it takes to make a great musician are fine by me.
You’re not knocking his accomplishments because you CAN’T knock those accomplishments. Many of them are beyond question.
@@vbassone well no, you could knock some of them if you wished. Almost by his own petard, if you will. IIRC, back when this interview was done (1985) a fairly routine critique of his playing was that, while precise, it sometimes was too precise to ‘swing’.
@@Gk2003m No, because who swings and who doesn't is SUBJECTIVE. That's an opinion if he swings or not, or swung back in 1985 or not. His accomplishments as a VIRTUOSO TRUMPET PLAYER are INDISPUTABLE. Got it?
LOL. Having ‘swing’ has obviously galloped over your numb skull. Got it? 😂
Super glad I found your channel. The production quality is there and I really hope you get big. Good luck and you’ve got a subscription from me!
Welcome aboard! Thanks for the kind words. Also I rather like your profile pic :D
I'm team Herbie on this. Winton has always been a purist who discounts anything non jazz to some degree. Just facts. Jazz would not move beyond its roots under his watch. It would under Herbie's.
If it was up to Wynton, jazz would continue to die as a popular music and live on only as a museum exhibit.
Taking the arguments at face value here, Marsalis is completely right about pop music. The problem is that, as evidenced by other interviews, he's also wrong about jazz music. He never gave free jazz and fusion due credit, but he - unlike our dear pal, Herbie - was courageous enough to expose pop music for the turd in the punchbowl it is. It was terrible in '85, and it's arguably gotten even worse today. Just because Wynton is stuck in his ways doesn't make New Kids on the Block (or Katy Perry for that matter) anything more than a stale product. He's piercingly right about that.
He doesn't 'discount' classical music, just (as far as I understand) completely cynical pop music that's written purely to make money. When I look at pop music now, it does seem to have become a branch of the sex industry. Could any pop music made in the last 20 years (at least) exist without video?
Great piece. Would love to see more from you. I’m late to your party, but i gotta say that while I admire what Marsalis has achieved in jazz, there is no question in my mind that his particular criticism of pop indicates a misunderstanding of jazz more than a misunderstand of pop. The jazz that Marsalis loves was pop from big band era right through to the late 50s. Bebop virtuosity and invention were crowdpleasers and the crowd was big. Marsalis seems to imagine that bebop would have happened even if it had not been popular, which is nonsense.
@@ignacioclerici5341 you said it. Saved me the trouble 🙂
Bebop was all about rule-breaking, it was a reaction against conformity and the gentrification of jazz. This was before free jazz came around. There were people back then criticizing bebop for the same reasons that free jazz ended up getting criticized.
Wynton Marsalis is all about conformity and gentrification, so it’s ironic he’d be someone who got into playing bebop and hard bop.
He can’t have it both ways, criticizing pop and avant-garde music at the same time.
Instantly subscribed to your channel. Your way to talk about such things is just right.
This channel is so good... Thank you
Thanks my dude! Really appreciate the support
great video introducing a totally insightful text. glad you made it!
The track "Rockit" was a collaboration with the DJ Grandmaster DST and the video was directed by former 10CC members Kevin Godley and Lol Creme.
Interesting video and topic. I want to find that interview, would like to read it in full.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Jazz is not a genre. It is a species of musical thought and a discipline in its own right. Swing, be-bop, hard-bop, free jazz, big band, acid jazz, jazz funk, neo soul, bossa nova, modern jazz, etc. Those are genres. But jazz is what they all share.
Also, Wynton’s analysis of pop music is spot on imo.
Your analysis of jazz is spot on. I think Wynton's analysis of pop lacks the same level of thought and nuance. Pop is also not a genre, and like jazz, its examples can range from profound and creative to cheap and banal. Sexual expression through African rhythms and the Blues is deep in the DNA of jazz, so I think Wynton made that particular criticism of pop with tongue in cheek.
Everything goes into the musical stew, there's no stopping it. A jazz artist playing a blend of jazz and pop musical elements will always be "jazz." A pop artist doing the same will always be "pop." And it will be obvious which is which, not because of the clothes they wear, but because of exactly what you mentioned - musical thought and discipline.
Thanks for bringing this out - it’s a great peek into a pivotal time in the development of an art form. And at any pivot point, there are options - “two Jazz (cross)roads diverging” (as Frost might have said).
Wynton was in his early/mid 20’s in 1984, (I think he was 23), and at that time, he might have been a little brash in not just this interview, but a few others. He’s an incredibly brilliant, passionate and dedicated musician - and by many measurements, he’s among the most gifted and capable trumpet players of all time (everyone has an opinion - that’s just mine).
I’ve been absolutely sure that his intentions toward music, and Jazz in particular, are guided by a nearly spiritual respect for the art form, and it’s been amazing to see what he’s done as an artist, ambassador for the music, teacher, composer, arranged, and bandleader over his now 40+ years at the top of (his part of) the jazz world. Yes, he’s a traditionalist - a true scholar and disciple of Louis Armstrong, and he’s done MUCH to increase public awareness of Louis’ singular genius. Yes, he’s opinionated - it’s his prerogative. And he’s always authentic, self-aware, and true to his beliefs.
Herbie is a whole different guy - he’s always looked to create new music - never revisiting what he’s done before - Miles had a similar nature - as did Wayne Shorter.
The interview demonstrated the creative and cultural conflict of that time - the Young Lions were claiming the future of Jazz by protecting and promoting the purity of Jazz’s past. Miles, Herbie, Wayne, and others were trying to protect the future of Jazz by projecting it into the present and future of its evolution.
Fantastically, both camps are still making great music - both have their audiences.
While it’s undeniable that what Herbie, Miles and Wayne did has greatly influenced all music,( not just jazz), the Young Lions vigorously upheld the standards for virtuosity, style, harmonic complexity, and traditions of Jazz.
Each are is equally valuable.
Yeah I reckon this is a fair read. I tried to give them a fair shake in this video, with this interview being the focal point. It's easy to be judgemental of Wynton and the Young Lions for being gatekeepers - and if you had to push me that's probably where I'd come down on it - but they absolutely have a place in the canon of jazz, and I think overall made a positive contribution to it. Like, undeniable talent among them and they did a lot to keep jazz relevant in an otherwise weird time for the genre.
Now that said, I don't know that I'd want to see that gatekeeping going forward, but the music is in a very different place today than it was in the 80s.
The main difference between Herbie and Marsalis is that Hancock is a genius.He can do and has done anything.
@@patriciawilson9666 Sure, and as much as Herbie is a genius, Wynton is another one for me, and my favorite.
One thing I would ask is that regardless of what Wynton’s opinion is what album of his is truly remembered? What innovations did he bring to a music considered radical in the 1940s? What would the innovators says about his comments? It took years before the critics even admitted to Bird swinging. Even Louis talked shit. So what really is Wynton talking about? And just because hes an amazing player does that give him the right to demean others music and be the end all be all to what is jazz and what isnt? Thats just pretentious and sad.
@@tonymartin6199 Tony my friend, you've just put it far better than i ever could.Well done !
Wynton, a great musician, that 'grabbed jazz by the collar', and dragged it 25-30 years into the past, abrogated all of the freedom and revolutionary impulses inherent in the music, and demanded we define 'jazz' as a narrow, staid, and unemotional, art from....in a 3 piece suit. "No dashikis allowed!!"
Just found out your channel. Amazing!
Thanks Andres - welcome!
Ironically, Hancock is the far superior pure straight up jazz composer between the two. I have a lot of respect for Marsalis as an ambassador for the roots and traditions of jazz, but he has a special way of coming off as a smug prick sometimes. I think, in a way, we need both of these schools of thought. Marsalis is right, IMO, that much of the jazz "fusion" stuff was basically crap with a backbeat to sell records. I personally never liked most of it, but at the same time the music is going to change and morph with every generation whether you like it or not and there was some fantastic jazz in the 1990s. Marsalis sometimes sounds like he thinks we should just freeze time in 1959 or something. Hancock constantly pushed the envelope and brought new life.
excellent job, man. keep it up
Wynton has such a clinical, sterile and archaic view of what jazz should be... what made the genre so innovative and fresh was its ability to morph and change, with so many distinct movements and streams. Miles was all about that, as was Herbie, and all the rest of the cats who were either more open to change like Coltrane, or leading the change themselves like Ayler/Sanders/Sun Ra/Coleman leading the spiritual/free movement. While he may be a technically good musician, a true artist imo is one who innovates and doesn't stay the same. I'd even argue that's a fundamental tenet of the genre. Miles and the rest embodied that perfectly. Wynton does not.
Yeah,he is a bore.The only work of his i've ever had any use for was his first album and his work with Hancock's quartet and with the Jazz Messengers.Marsalis is like an ant trapped in amber.
Well stated! The essence of jazz is great musicianship and innovation. Take the music past where you found it. Wynton has the musicianship, but never did understand the innovation. He is a good historian that plays what has been played over and over, and he has a narrow point of view.
@@GVernon Absolutely true Geno. Wynton's view of what is and isn't Jazz is so narrow it has restricted any innovation he might have had in his music.
The greatest artists in the history of the music never thought this way about Jazz.
Look at Miles ,Mingus,Monk,Jackie McLean,Coltrane,Sonny Rollins,Herbie Hancock,Chic Corea,Wayne Shorter,Joe Zawinul,Jaco Pastorius ,Keith Jarrett,Tony Williams,John Mclaughlin,Art Blakey and Lee Morgan just for starters.
For these men Jazz was and is a fluid term.They were always about moving the music forward.
Just think about how much great music we would have missed out on if these cats had Wynton's mindset.
@@GARRY3754 I don't recall anywhere that I said he's dry. Just that he has a very conservative view of what jazz music should be.
@@GARRY3754What i am saying is that i have no interest in Wynton Marsalis' opinion of what constitutes "real" Jazz.
His view is narrow to the point of absurdity.
If you like straight ahead traditional Jazz i'd suggest Eric Alexander,Jim Rotond,David Hazeltine,Steve Davis and their sextet One For All.
I've seen these guys live here in Detroit and they swing so hard it hurts.
It's tragic that Marsalis is such a purist because his abilities as a trumpet player are at a legendary level except he doesn't use his abilities in the best way possible
I'm really happy I found your channel this is gas
Wynton Marsalis is a purist, and he is willing to rewrite history in service to his ideology. He feels that Jazz won't be taken seriously if people think of it as it really was--music for entertainment in bars and clubs--so he twists his account around to make it some high-minded thing. He isn't the first snob to try this trick. Classical music snobs have been pushing this BS narrative about their chosen idiom for longer than Jazz has existed, and it has no more validity when they do it. The bottom line is this: greatness and popularity are independent of one another. They may coincide, but they don't have to. Popularity is neither a prerequisite for nor the opposite of greatness. Take that "serious music" crap somewhere else.
Beautifully said.
Well said. I read the Musician interview in '85, and I've never forgiven Wynton for it. Nor for his narrow-minded contributions to Ken Burns' Jazz series 15 yrs later. To omit Weather Report and Pat Metheny (to name two) from a comprehensive history of jazz and its evolution is absurd.
I recently heard an interview with Jeff Hamilton who, early on, played with Lionel Hampton. On the first gig, after the first tune, during which Jeff was throwing in everything he knew how to do, Hamp turns around and tells him "Just play pretty for the people."
@@fretbuzz59 To quote Ron Carter, "I always refer to him as Wynton Marsalis because he has not played long enough or well enough to be known by only one name."
@@careyvinzant Ouch.
@@careyvinzant hahaha, that's amazing. Where's that quote from? I'd love to read/watch it from the original source
I like this. What are your thoughts on Stewart Copeland’s comments about jazz?
I love Wynton Marsalis. His opinions used to bug me, but I understand and respect them now. And he is more than just a skilled player.
He is still one of the best jazz musicians in the history of the art form.
I like these arguments between jazz musicians. The battle of the jazz critics in the 1940s over bebop, swing and New Orleans is particularly interesting.
Jazz music was dance music in the 1920’s, 1930’s and 1940’s. It began to become more of a listening or concert style music when BeBop emerged from swing. Swing music was dance music, Bebop was too fast for dancing and encouraged deep listening as did the later avant-garde or free jazz movement. Pop music is dance music, that’s why it is so popular.
I don’t know, bebop seems really danceable, the best exemple is Monk, his band is swingin hard and it’s hard not to dance
But as we know, Pop music is Commercial because it is created by Record companies to sell Product - end of story. THe fact that the artist(s) is needed in between the process of Production and eventual Consumption is a pain, I expect, to a lot of Music moguls. If a computer could do the job for them then I’m sure that they would jump at the chance.
Jazz is an expression of personal achievement. It is intellectual and spiritual athleticism combined with grace of perception. Jazz is a form so deep and inclusive that it sucks into itself all the world’s music and sublimates these musics into an idiom that blends blues and improvisation. A practitioner of jazz is much like a yogi or monk who undertakes a life of contemplation. When musicians arrive together to make music they bring their valise of masteries, their real and fake books, their tools and tuners. Nowadays we have no guides except jazz musicians. The world may not know this. But WE do.
Wynton's point, and it is the correct one in my humble opinion, is that not every music that's influenced by Jazz can be called Jazz.
Putting the quotes in tweet format was golden
Wynton is like a Spanish Inquisition of jazz, if you follow me.
You lived in Toronto?
Miles Davis had embraced pop music by the 1970s so Marsalis would have disagreed with Miles as well as Herbie. Also, jazz music WAS pop music until rock 'n' roll came along in the mid '50s.
Where is the interview?
Thank you!
No, you!
Great video
Another reason why we need to stop putting everything into genres since it will always mean something different to different people. There are plenty of people who hear the word jazz and think of smooth jazz(like Kenny G) which in my view is miles(no pun intended) from the bebop of the 50s and 60s. As Miles so perfectly put it "There are no bad notes, just bad musicians"
Do more, spill the tea mate!
Hah cheers mate, will do
Thank you.
While both Wynton and Herbie are great virtuoso musicians, composers and arrangers, Wynton tends to be more conservative, doctrinaire and rigid in his thinking and Herbie tends toward more experimental freedom of expression. The difference between the two is not between high and low brow art or pop and a culturally credible art form or the difference between sales and artistic principals but between a purist perspective and a creative chameleon.
Personally I find Herbie far more interesting and found Wynton's comment about pop being about sex a bit juvenile especially in regard to Herbie who is master of his domain(s). Sure there is sex in all music and Herbie is one of the funkiest who have ever lived, however there is more pure joy, soul and inventiveness in Herbie's music that cannot be dismissed as purely about sex.
Wynton wasn’t necessarily directing his comment towards Herbie’s work in popular music. His point was directed at the MAJORITY of popular music.
Wonder what Marsalis think about Armstrong's pop songs...
Got me thinking, get back with me, enjoyed it, Thanks!
what is the name of the song, please?
6:54
Rockit - Herbie Hancock
I enjoyed the opinions. I don't know who is right or wrong. But the two opinions were great to hear, especially if you have a love for music.
I enjoyed the video and I like you Kikkoman t-shirt. I want one of those and a Tabsco t as well.
I still have that issue of Musician in a stack of stuff I have kept through the years. Futureshock was a great record by Herbie after years of mediocrity, and Wynton was at his absolute peak (honestly it was all downhill after Hot House Flowers and Black Codes, IMO) but never really grew beyond being a tired imitation of Miles 60s band. The only thing Wynton was spot on about was how cringeworthy it was that Herbie was relegated to a fuzzy image on a TV on the set of the video - but that speaks to the racism of MTV, not Herbie.
Life is subjective and all art aspires to the condition of life. There’s no superior or inferior style of organized sound. Music is not a sport, however I believe jazz is the highest form of consciousness.
Loved Musician mag. I remember they did an article where someone stated 100 musicians more important than Winton or something like that. I have it somewhere. I didn't know what the time but it seems like it was a response to this exchange Maybe
Winton reflects his era. I move to conservatism and kind of looking at the past more Furby was always looking to the Future.
Herbie was more of a musician and Winton more of a traditionalist.
Winton is cool because he brought a lot of attention to Jazz you know but Herbie he just expanded the universe man there's no real comparison between them artistically
All I know is that his 1st LP "Black Codes from the Underground" was as good as it gets. But he never got close to that LP again. Not for me anyway. He shoulda kept following those directions instead of some kinda neo-satchmo. Herbie except for a few things like Rockit has always got something of interest to me.
That wasn't his first LP.
My problem with Wynton is he ultimately believed himself (with help from professional frumpy jerk Stanley Grouch) the arbiter of a genre he had no place to do so.
His own playing is mostly technically brilliant but often sterile. Like he's memorized every inflection and can repla by will, but he's still such a wound up choad that it comes out in his playing. The few records of his I own are mostly for Kenny Kirkland and Jeff Tain Watts, who seemed to play with actual joy....
Great video. I got to see very early Headhunters band live promoting their first album. Absolutely remarkable music. I've always scratched my head a bit on the later stuff but it is fun to listen to (is "fun" as useful variable in analyzing jazz?). I've listened to Marsalis and have to say I'd rather listen to Branford any day. IMHO 100 years from now, Herbie will definitely be remembered, listed to, and played and Wynton will be a foot note.
Wrong. Wynton's legacy is already deeper and more lasting than Herbie's ... and I love both men.
@@user-mr5lg6ng4s and HOW per se is Marsalis' legacy "deeper" and "more lasting...in your opinion. Have you SEEN either or both of these musicians LIVE (as I have...on several occasions). I left Marsalis' performances uninspired whereas Hancock virtually scared me with his musical imagination (lacking in Marsalis).
Oh...btw...the last time I saw Hancock, it was with Chick Corea...another great musical mind.
@@michaelgardner5832 what Wynton has done with the big band at the Lincoln Centre is absolutely remarkable and will last well beyond the faddish stuff that folks are raving about now. His range of musical collaborations is astonishing... from Willie Nelson & Eric Clapton to the Berlin Philharmonic; From Ghanaian drum master Yacub Addy to Iraqi musician Naseer Shamma. And that's before we talk about work he did (and does) with older Jazz greats like Ahmed Jamal or young geniuses like Jon Batiste. Check out his compositions like "Swing Symphony" or "Blood on the Fields" and marvel at the ambition and seriousness as well as great music filled with knowledge and love for Jazz tradition. I love Herbie but Wynton is for real. Everyone thinks that to be modern is to use synthesizers and gadgets rather than dig into connecting with the human soul of all of us.. Above all I love the fact that he out there teaching kids.
Love me some Herbie but Wynton has done more, IMHO.
We don't have to agree though. Stay well.
@@michaelgardner5832 I don't disagree.
Where is this interview?
I actually had to buy a book of jazz readings to be able to find it. The book is called Keeping Time, by Robert Walser
Branford was the cooler brother.
Wynton Marsalis has done much for music and jazz, an ambassador of its high value to America and the world. Herbie Hancock is a musical titan. The Grammy's are what they are, an expression of popular climate and culture. These stellar musicians are difficult to compare, both virtuosos, though I see Marsalis as more a traditionalist - jazz and higher classical chops than jazz, and Hancock the improvisational musician of suprise, identifiable personal voice, and inventiveness so characteristic of the great jazz musicians. With respect, Hancock on piano is characteristic of the great jazz trumpeters and unique voices - Clifford Brown, Fats Navarro, Dizzy, Miles, Chet Baker, Lee Morgan, Freddie Hubbard, Woody Shaw, Roy Hargrove, who transcend time in the freshness of their voice. Hancock, like McCoy Tyner, Phineas Newborn, Bill Evans, Keith Jarret, and Chick Corea, also with stellar tecnical abilities who transcend time and sound always fresh. Always surprise, emotionally invested in the moment of creation.
I see, so we won't see the interview in your video. We'll just see you talking the whole time?
I think things like this are great for moving music conversations forward. You can't have everyone agreeing and being yes people. That moves nothing. It's challenging to talk to people who have different views to you... on anything! People get possessive and fixed on their view being the right one and then the talk becomes about who's right and who's wrong and then you're in a never-ending loop. It's interesting to see how people view certain topics, especially music. At the end of the day, music doesn't give a shit what we all think about it. It's gonna carry on doing its thing while we all argue about it 😄
On bad taste, he was referring to Phil Collins and called classical musicians artisans, not artists - I remember reading in a differnt interview.
Maybe you could show the video.
Jazz and pop are both musical art forms; in both you have serious musicians pursuing musical ideas. If a musician is primarily motivated by making music that will sell and goes after money by simply sticking to established formulas, that person is not a serious artist and the music won't be any good. The artistically most interesting pop music I think is influenced by jazz, E.g., I was listening just yesterday to Sade's "Smooth operator" and "Sweetest taboo": start with the drum rhythms opening the latter song. You won't find that in today's pop music! But it's difficult for a straightahead jazz musician to make a really popular pop record, because they can't help keeping it too complicated. Herbie's "Stars in your eyes", Grover Washington (whose "Mr Magic" started a new era of jazzy pop), Donald Byrd are some exceptions. But the artistic influence mostly goes from jazz to pop via pop artists who know the jazz tradition. (Again, an exception would be, e.g., the Brecker brothers, Tom Harrell et al. in The Players Association.) For example, Herbie's "Autodrive" I don't think was that popular, but Herbie's piano solo in there was killer!
Wise words on the function of history.
Wynton actually made some very fair arguments on the state of pop music which obviously still stands today, Herbie sounded to me like he was just defending his own endeavours in rock/pop thus not really having a fruitfull conversation. I dont get why wynton gets so much hate for this particular interview?
Great !
“they both master on what they do” ? please do not conpare them, wynton is just Branford’s brother
Oh snap!
I started learning jazz at the age of 19 in 1977. I couldn't even get records, just one Charlie Parker LP at Pruitt Brothers, the local Bluegrass Instrument Shop. When Wynton came out Jazz was nearly non-existent. All the local bands had followed Herbie. So to me at least, Wynton was the Savior of Jazz. He Showed us all how to come on stage, how to dress, how to play and how to Bow to the audience at the end of a number. He always stayed to sign autographs after the show. He remembered you, and he left no one in line disappointed, he stayed there till everyone had a chance to get an autograph. Miles said "Jazz is Dead, kaput, finito, finished". Nothing against Herbie or Wayne or Jaco or Pat Metheny. I dig their music, and I think they deserved a Real Payday cause they paid their dues. I played my Tenor in a funk band once and Low Rider was a blast to play. But my real heart is in Bebop, and Straight Ahead. What Wes Did! That was Immense! Goin out 'a my Head? That set the Standard. Birdland and Black Market took it to a new level. First Circle? Words can't even describe. I don't even know what Watermelon Man or Cantaloupe Island or "Rocket" are. I've listened to them but no tune sticks in my head. Not like Tom Thumb or Speak no Evil, or Black Nile or Children of the Night. Herbie does a great job at promoting jazz and so does Wynton. I don't really know why they are at odds.
I enjoy this video very much, thank you!!! but I was viscerally upset by the "giving them twitter handles" and tags thing because something tells me conversations that are so intelligent would never happen on twitter these days, or would they?
Hah, I know what you mean! I reckon if you check out the folks that talk music theory on twitter you might be surprised how in depth they get (often way too much so)
@@TimBeauBennett well that's an actual reason for me to get on twitter then! I quit other social media a little while ago, and now I just live on CZcams. I am a developing hikikomori but trying to get out there more. I love playing music and I'm famous. I also love food so much. keep up the great work!
This reminds me of the main story line in "Mo Better Blues" by Spike Lee.
I used to think Winton knew at a base level what jazz was. But these exchanges (we dont hear the whole interview so could be out of context) says that Winton totally misses why jazz was invented.
I might well be a snob, if Herbie Hancock is making a pop album, it would be legit, simply because of the amount he knows in creating music, right back to his classical background and all the theory he knows, music is limitless for him. If you have a band that knows three chords and is heavily produced and managed, that is not really the artist fully knowing their own craft and everything that goes into creating music on every level, Jazz is a fertile breading base for being able to branch out in so many genres and influences, however, it's knowing how to play jazz and play those influences, so that it creates layers and informs other genres. So a blues isn't simply just triads all the time, you might want to throw in some tension chords, or some raga stuff. This is why Herbie's music, along with Marsalis's works, have depth. I'm sure if Marsalis ventured into full on Garage or Pop music, he would sound absolutely fine, totally legit, because they both understand, on a vast scale, how the building blocks are put together on a fundamental level
If every opinion was nice and okay to anyone it wouldn't be as valuable.
I try to enjoy having my feathers ruffled by opinions as much as I can and think for myself.
sat down for a joint.. interview..
very nice, it didnt feel like you were pointing any of the two like the one wih the truth
Wynton is to jazz what Stephen A. Smith is to the NBA. Inconsequential to the field he is associated with.
If Wynton’s entire jazz catalog was deleted Jazz would be just fine.
Take away Herbie and the art form would lose so much.
What a poor analogy.
@@ewil1219 Both:
•make money from running their mouth •have an overblown sense of self- importance
•have failed to make a meaningful contribution to anything.
•stir a big crock of stanky stuff and wait to see who comes to watch.
@@touchofdumb I won't even begin to mention all of Wynton's contributions to music, but I'm guessing you have never used the "Marsalis on Music" series as an educational tool. I have found it continuously useful for more than 3 decades of teaching. What specifically has Wynton stirred up? in your opinion.
@@ewil1219 Many of the top jazz trumpeters like Miles, Hubbard, Shaw & Bowie thought of him as a fool. That should tell you a lot.
Wynton’s views are often negative and exclusive - great artists tend not to think like that. His lack of meaningful contribution I spoke of is to the art form not re: some course he’s selling.
I hope you gave your students more than the Marsalis course, a lot more! I’m just gonna assume you did.
I’m not trying to hurt you, but if all the Jazz education I ever recv’d was only from Wynton I would weep for all the wild wonder and beauty I would’ve missed.
One thing here I kinda disagree with. I think Rock-it does qualify as jazz. If "So What" by miles davis is jazz, basically a funky bass riff in one key looped while people solo, than why isn't Rock-it? Obviously It is stretching the definition a bit, but I think it counts as funky, synth driven jazz fusion.
music is like candy for the ears and mind. sometimes sweet sometimes sour and everything in between. Enjoy it how it touches you ;)
I detest click-bait....
I am always surprised by musicians who think the world needs their opinions. We are not brain surgeons, we are not curing cancer or rocketing to the moon. Some of the musicians at the top of the heap may have a thing or two to teach the rest of us about how to go about the craft and perhaps they should leave it there.
Yeah, there was a sentiment in the US jazz community that Herbie had somehow 'sold out' with his funk/fusion albums, but a lot of that was 'sour grapes', cos Herbie was selling way more units than the straight-ahead guys... (&, he was experimenting... another form of improvisation)
I thought there was going to be a real interview between them.
Well go about 5 to 10 yrs later and you realize he is talking about rap music. Wynton is not a fan of rap music at all. Now at his older age he not as vocal about it as he once was. Ppl got confused he was talking about Jazz but he was talking about the music business in general by the 50’s music companies always wanted that next pop star no matter if it was Jazz, blues, rock or whatever. Louis Armstrong was very critical about anything that was not Rag time isn’t Jazz. Louis Armstrong hated Bebop and that whole generation of jazz. You had Buddy Rich who probably takes the cake for being one of the biggest assholes in jazz by claiming rock drummers were the worst musicians and he would never play that garbage while at same time being the highest paid musician in the 70’s. So I have learned some jazz musicians can be very basis about music in general
Wynton and his brother were both members of the Louisiana All State band in the 70s. I was an LA all state trumpeter in the 80s. There ends my commonality with the Awesome Wynton. He wasn't first chair btw.
Specifically what does Hancock think has eluded Marsalis regarding pop music?
Not sure I completely agree with either. But pop certainly in most cases isn’t about creating great art any more than it’s about making money and selling. Those two aspects are in much more of a struggle than in other types of music
Interesting.
NO COMPARISON...HERBIE ...1000%....
You talk like they are “equal giants” Herbie’s catalog and legacy is far greater!
Now if you could take a look at the Other big Wynton “feud”
I think you should have done a piece on the race part of the interview. Much more interesting. And I think the only reason that the interview remained amicable is because Herbie Hancock is much more forgiving than Marsalis.
don't know how old this is actually....but Wynton must've acquiesced since, with his excursions with Willie Nelson, and Eric Clapton
Schoenberg said “If it is art, it is not for all, and if it is for all, it is not art.”
If only Schoenberg had kept mouthing off about art instead of producing very tedious music that is more interesting to discuss than to listen to I'd be more than thankful.
miles: "L + who asked?"
This is a commentary. Not an interview lol. Thanks tho.
6:50 Jazz was all about sex and drugs while it was being created. ;) (At least a good part of it) - Great video by the way. I like your observations. Herbie is fantastic. Me, personally, I never liked the funk explorations at all, especially at the time they came out. Now that I am older, I think I would actually appreciate it a lot more. Still trying to find a copy of Betty Davis' stuff