Good Cards That Make Us Salty | The Command Zone 479 | Magic: The Gathering Commander EDH
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
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Show Notes:
Magic is a game, and games are supposed to be fun, right? But everyone’s got cards that rub them the wrong way, cards that make you - in gamer terms - salty! This episode we go over our personal list of cards that get us riled up, whether they’re land destruction, stax pieces, or just plain overcomplicated. The salt is about to flow, so join us and see how our list compares to yours!
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Relevant Links:
DJ:
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CZcams: / jumbocommander
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Ashlen Rose:
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EDHREC Top Saltiest Cards:
edhrec.com/top...
Revisionist History (Podcast) by Malcolm Gladwell:
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How to deal with Vorinclex: If you have instant speed removal and the mana to cast it, tap your lands for the mana while he's still on the stack, THEN let him resolve, THEN use that mana to cast the spell. This way you can get around his doesn't-untap trigger. Alternatively, prioritize using mana rocks to cast your removal.
☝🏻 This, right here. 👏🏻
Alternatively, you can use something like Sower of Temptation and take that player's Vorinclex
Yeah he's like an 8 mana less oppressive easier to remove Winter Orb.
Stop trying to give ppl the way to shutdown my big baddie 😂🤣😂🤣
Have you guys ever made the opposite of salty cards episode? Like cards that make the game more enjoyable or fun for the table? Not just a group hug deck. I'd like that kind of episode too!
Oooh I like it! Cards that make us happy :D.
I think that would be if people played my pet cards.
This comment for the win
They actually did one of these episodes!
I had a bad rule 0 experience at a local event last year. A person my friends and i didnt know asked to join in for the last game of the night (store was closing). So we were all fine with it. Friends said they were playing mid level kineos group hug, a simic go wide, and i was playing an arcades deck. The new guy says its just an artifact deck that hes unsure what will happen. Turns out it was all stasis and timesifter effects. Probably the lamest game any of us have ever played. Card is a bit of a bummer to play against, but a straight up disshonest opponent is worse
@@delathenleso5793 Who actually lies to a group of randoms to win one game of edh? That does not happen xD
@@ich3730 It does happen, at least at my LGS. Not every week but I reckon a table at least every fortnight has 1 or 2 players that openly lie on rule 0 and after the game my mate and I change tables or leave. Some people want to win over everyone else having fun, makes no sense to me.
@@ashhuman2412 Im gonna be totally honest, that sounds unbelieveable to me. Thats a waste of time for all parties. Not to mention your locals gonna know your face. Im from germany so it might be a cultural difference, but this is just insane to me xD
@@ich3730 It does sound insane because it is! It is infuriating to say the least. I am in Australia, so it could be cultural differences but I think honestly some people want to win over everyone enjoying themselves.
@@ich3730 A friend that got me into magic turned out to be cheating all the time (even in casual tabletop commander) so I cut ties with him.
I also don’t understand wanting to get an unfair advantage at a supposedly social event for fun but it does certainly happen.
Winter orb and static orb are probably my two picks. In general, I will appreciate a good strategy or a card that needs setup but breaks my kneecaps directly, but I will be salty at literally being unable to play (which with those cards- and now that I think about it, also other- can happen in the first three turns!) while my opponent has a deck that is of course made to go around those cards
Honestly if anyone is gonna play stacks you better kill me within the next 2 turns else im leaving. It just takes too long
@Meyene Etuks I had some turn 3 or 4 lock down the board with stasis and winter orb and then he said he didn't have a win con. He literally counted on people just conceding. I told him he was a prick and I refuse to play with him. Dude was a rich dude that liked to brag about having all the expensive cards too.
To be fair, EDH players complain about more or less everything. The people in my playgroup unironically frown upon counterspells.
Anything that makes you a big advantage can make someone salty but hey eveybody is trying to win
Tell me about it. My decks aren't CEDH but everyone at my shop complains about the power level of my decks. I'm basically playing archenemy unless I'm playing against a select pod of players.
@@kennethmarkwith4678 I used to be like that too. Well I still kinda am but used to hate it until I just embraced it. Was like well you guys are gunna go after me anyways might as well give myself a fighting chance and make this fun and try to win. I took it as a compliment and a challenge. But it is pretty annoying
Bruh it’s because they wanna pop off without being told no. Sad, my main salt comes from nekuzar tbh
I just build what I want, as you learn very quickly that people will get salty at just about everything. I don't get salty at cards, but I do become disappointed with players' attitudes.
Cyclonic Rift being a groan test is so funny to me because I'm happy almost every time someone else casts it.
Yea all the etb vallue again who cares these days with the low curve.
@@kevin_Masters I'm just happy because normally a few players are trying to kill me with creatures and I never have much of a board presence so it just takes the heat off me and puts it on the person who cast CRift every time.
@@shawndiaz7528 yeah that could be me too. But I’m almost at the point of cutting it sometimes as it feels as a take a extra turn spell. And my problems are back after that turn.
The biggest thing people need to learn when playing magic is that it’s okay to get got. That’s the game. Everyone plays to execute their game plan and prevent the other players from victory. This is an issue I’ve often run into with playgroups
I think more of my issues are with players more than the cards they play. No one wants to play with a ticking time bomb over them all the time or have a guy play near cedh level decks into precons to just pubstomp . It's different if a better player wins frequently by assessing threats better and playing when an opening presents itself. It's entirely different to straight up demolish someone for playing their favorite precon.
I completely agree. Especially if it's due to one specific card that you're afraid of. If it's your kryptonite, you should be prepared to deal with it or accept your fate.
yea but when i get got i wanna lose not have it cause the game to last 4 hours. Conceding to lose just sucks
@@donb7519 yes someone stopping the game dead in their tracks for the purpose of shenanigans is a whole other issue. The worst is when someone plays something like possibility storm without anything on board. I’ve had this happen before and it’s just a constant fight to fix the mess they put everyone in to resume the game
@@jhemp bro most players dont think that big. They wont notice if they got outplayed. People are salty if their stuff gets killed. People get salty if they lose. Thats the monkey brain in action
My number one saltiest card every game is the spell I drew when I needed a land
Or the 9th land you drew in a row when you would be happy to even play a signet late game to DO something QQ
DJ hit the nail on the head at the end of the episode around 48:40. Letting people play the game of Magic is what it's all about. I've been playing commander since before it was called "Commander" and every salty scenario that I've ever been a part of, either directly or indirectly, was because someone at the table wasn't able to play the game.
always love dj on an episode. appreciate the good vibes and positive energy he brings
You just gave me more good vibes. The cycle continues :)
Cyclonic rift makes me salty not because its a "board wipe" , its not since it does not effect your stuff. My issue with rift will always be the fact it is instant and bounces EVERYTHING BUT LANDS BACK. The fact I need to recast my entire board state against a blue deck with counters, if done at the right time like the end of my turn i'll have to discard at times adding to the salt. overall a horrdibly deisgned card I would be happy to see illegal. Personally i hate decks based around getting my stuff taken. Theft decks suck to play against.
I have two old Plaguewinds, 9 mana Damnations that leave your own stuff, at sorcery speed. It cost nine mana, leaving you open to most counterspells as it is an I Win card.
Cyclonic Rift does it at a reduced cost, instant speed, nukes the mana rocks, the enchantress deck, the superfriends deck.
The power level is off the charts compared to other board wipes.
I have had several games where the blue player Cyclones, and the rest of sit there, knowing that we lost. Because we need at least 2 turns to get back into it.
Whilst the blue player does shenanigans, get extra turns, or recover Cyclonic Rift.
It's a win con. Win cons are inherently salty cause you loose. You will not get back in the game when I cyc rift. At least two players will be dead and the last will follow in another turn.
@@SneakyPirate54 No win cons are not inherintly salty. Triumph of the hordes is a win con but its a fair one as you need to have a solid clear shot and it does not remove defense against your threats. Cyclonic rift is a badly designed, terrible and op card that does far to much and is hard to defend against as the only defenses to it arer running blue to counter it or a card that can phase out all your stuff until the end of turn.
@@aclevername7613 are you seriously arguing an infect card is less salty then cyclonic rift? You do realize in both instances the person casting the spell needs to have a board big enough to make these cards actual win cons. And I would feel the exact same if someone played either of those cards against me. And triumph is a much weaker card. How about Akromas will? You feel the same if someone played that against you? I wouldn't. It would feel exactly the same as the cyc rift. I don't have shit to do against it. Just because the cyc rift is a great card doesn't mean it's any more great than all the other win cons people can run. "Oh yeah I loved when my opponent went infinite with a two card combo to win the game, it felt much more fair than top decking a cyc rift." ... It did not feel any better.
I’ve stopped running extra turn spells because of the amount of salt you can get for 5-7 mana.
The sole survivor is Expropriate because its high cost and starts a table discussion. I’ve found that this negotiation is a lot less salty than a time warp.
I play Rashmi turns, I don't understand what you mean by 5-7 mana, real extra turns cost 10
What makes me salty isn't necessarily any specific card, but when one player in your play group focuses on you for no apparent reason. For example anytime I play my nekuzar deck I am immediately targeted and am unable to play or have fun. I don't play it often but when I do I want to play it...
I love Break the Ice because it punishes greedy mana bases that play a crap ton of utility lands and do cheesy things with Snow, but yeah playing it because you know somebody at your table is going to be playing Eldrazi and/or other colorless shenanigans, that crosses a line.
Great take
Winter orb, blood moon, and mass land destruction always kill the mood for me, like I just immediately want to surrender when these hit
So you were green
I actually really like that Opposition Agent hits lands. Gives counterplay to the absurd fixing that 5 color decks have with next to zero downside, and to green decks that ramp with lands instead of artifacts or creatures. I just don't like that the Agent's controller gets the card advantage, that's pretty egregious.
I feel like he doesn't have to play against landfall all the time
Scrambleverse. It's errata actually reads "If the number of nonland permanents is 10 or more, your opponents scoop."
I think there are two main reasons cyclonic rift is a salt maker.
1. It is an instant
2. It hits all nonland permanents
Neither of these are all that bad on their own, but in combination they can be quite annoying. That being said, I can still play against it without groaning. At the end of the day, I just let people play whatever. I'd be a liar if I said I've never caused my opponents to groan by playing what I find fun, so why stop my friends from playing cards they enjoy?
Ugh there is a card that makes me so salty… what’s the card? It is a land… taps for blue…
An island?
that’s the one! I see an island and I know shenanigans are soon to be afoot in my group! 🤣😉
If you only see islands, kill them quickly before they stop you from playing the game for an hour.
Here are a couple cards that are very salty. They are 'How to lose your friends for $0.25' cards.
Lifeforce and Deathgrip.
Lifeforce (G)(G) Enchantment that says, Pay (G)(G) Counter target black spell.
Deathgrip (B)(B) Enchantment that says, Pay (B)(B) Counter target green spell.
They can shut down entire decks if they are a mono color. Or shut down large parts of someones deck.
I played it in a Yeva deck many years ago for a short time (took it out because it was so salty). Seedborn Muse where I am always untapping my lands, I always have mana open to counter other peoples black spells. These cards have editions (Alpha, Beta..) which can go for $100+, but other editions are $0.25 or less (depending on condition).
Coat of Arms is in the same boat as telepathy for me, it just slows everyone's turns down.
"Oh I played a creature, what is everything's power and toughness now?"
By the point where it might be difficult to keep track, it probably doesn’t matter much. You are probably dead several times over once attacked.
They've got the energy of two kids who like the same tv show none of their friends watch.
And it's great.
"I dont mind stasis, its symmetrical"
Any deck that plays stasis makes sure this card is not symmetrical.
At that point nobody besides the caster plays the game anymore.
Its just a boring card anywhere besides cEDH tables.
"It's an Enchantment, you can remove it."
I can't UNTAP anything. How, pray tell, do I PAY for the removal?
True I never seen stasis played just to slow the game. It shuts them off completely except for the user. It doesn't even give a window for answers once on the field. Unlike winter orb or static orb where there is still opportunity for answers, stasis just forces you to shut up and die to boredom. And it's not like the user will win on a turn or two which makes the game more tormenting. Funny though that it was pointed out it is an enchantment so it is removable, but almost all of the cards talked about in the episode is a permanent that is easier to take out like winnower. With stasis u cant even get the mana to use for your removal except by putting lands for a couple of turns. A total waste of precious time for enjoyment.
The way I’ve seen players play Smothering Tithe is that if the opponents don’t pay or forget to pay the player with Tithe makes the treasure. It literally says “If the player doesn’t you create a colorless Treasure”
Said it once, will say it again...I am loving the intro with the summary of the episode. Brings another level into the content. Thank you.
This one was cringe as hell but I agree, pre-show summaries are a good idea
@@Oopsall if you are older than 20 you should be immune to cringe. Nothing is more cringe than people saying something is cringe.
2 Mana enchantment Stasis: "I sleep"
8 Mana creature Vorinclex: "It's so mean!"
Vorinclex makes people salty, not because it is hard to stop, but because YOU have to be the one to commit to deal with it. Only YOUR lands don't untap next turn. Personally, I don't mind it.
@@raze667 Lol I know and I kinda get it but it's so ironic that the clear lesser of 2 evils is the one that's considered salty but the other is perfectly fine. "How dare you make some of my lands not untap for 1 turn." compared to "Oh I guess I won't untap for the rest of the game. This is fine."
It's a jerk card for jerks
stasis affects everyone including the caster whereas vorinclex only effects opponents.
@@IVISMiLESIVI yeah but c'mon dude there isn't a single player who puts stasis in their own deck without having a way to not be affected by it.
Nothing makes me as salty as someone playing cards that cause more book keeping then they can handle. Prime example is warp world and the completely unmanageable amount of triggers that happen. To a lesser degree also coat of arms or cathar's crusade on a complex board.
I feel this. I cut cathar's crusade from Isshin becuase while it was super strong, i needed like a million tokens because they all had different amounts of +1/+1 counters and made my turns soo long if I had a decent board.
Cathar's Crusade was cut from my Edgar Markov deck for that very reason. Well back when I had the deck. Make a vampire token, put a counter on every creature, vampire enters, put a counter on every creature, rinse, and repeat
If a tribal deck runs Coat of Arms and no one can destroy it immediately, my table usually just concedes if their board is substantial. When my Krenko deck with 20 gobbos drops CoA, don't even bother with all of the math, lol.
I'm just waiting to be able to copy my Academy Manufactor a few times and let Smothering Tithes go a few rounds 😂
This makes me want to get Op Agent. Green needs to be brought down a peg and fetchlands are too pricey anyway.
My problem is mostly with the fact that it hits budget fixing solutions like Terramorphing Expanse and tutoring a land to your hand
Opposition agent is a perfectly fair and well balanced card for any non-green deck.
Playing it in a Green deck is just rude though.
having a big setup turn then being cyc rifted at instant speed before you end your turn and having ti discard down to hand size. I still haven’t recovered.
In paper magic basically nothing makes me really salty. I play to play, to be challenged and to do some mental gymnastics every now and then. Sure I moan when my cool thing is put to waste, but at last when the game is done so am I with being annoyed... mostly it hapens sooner... like the next turn ^^
The only thing that really has potential to get me grumpy over time is heavy control, mill or other things that won't let me do anything with the deck I carefully build to actually play with.
One friend in the playgroup for instance only has 1 commander deck, buffed up rogue mill precon. Not that he has a high win rate (outside 1vs1), but that deck can mill so much cards in a turn that it can be really frustrating. Seeing all your answers, wincons and so on hitting the yard and probably exile is just not a nice experience... over and over and over again. Last time we played like 15-20 turns, just had upgraded my mardu human sac deck, eager to finally play it again... and ended up doing literally nothing for 2 hours cause all my lands, rocks, sac outlets, payoffs and removals hit the bin... 5 lands, a commander, some human tokens and a black market were all I got... and the market also did get removed after 1 round.
I don't think armagedon never should be played. It sometimes is the only response to land based strategy. Landfall decks and land focused decks are so powerful, because of the social contract paragraph 16: "every land is sacred".
Agree 100% with you
This episode could have been titled, “Why people don’t like EVIL, err… I mean, blue.”
Cyclonic Rift- It’s too efficient. It hits everything that’s not a land. If WOTC introduces a new permanent type, CR can still bounce it. I can’t be stopped by any ability like indestructible does with damage or destroy effects and I rarely have mana issues.
Capsize- Yet another reason that people are undervaluing bounce effects. If removal is defined as “no longer on the battlefield” then bounce is arguably the best.
Telepathy- this is a bully card. When someone plays it, there should be an understanding that the owner will be targeted with everything until it’s gone. Think about how Josh approaches Tempt with Discovery. It will cut down on the decision paralysis and have them question whether or not playing the card is worth the added attention.
Opposition Agent- don’t run fetch lands. They are overplayed, overvalued, and not required to play Commander. I build primarily Mardu decks, only one (Kelsien) has fetches. I rarely have mana issues. Leave them for 1v1 60-card formats and landfall strategies.
My saltiest cards are as follows:
1) Cyclonic Rift - see above
2) Extra turn spells- the value generated by taking an extra turn always exceeds the amount of mana used to cast them or their individual components. Plus everyone has to watch you play solitaire. That might fun for you, but isn’t fun for others.
3) Alternate win conditions- if we are supposed to be trying to defeat our opponents, it’s antithetical to the game to just declare victory. They also are often very difficult to counter or even interact with. I’m fine with effects that cause players to lose the game because that is an alternative to what we are trying to do anyways.
I love telepathy growing up I played in my casual blue control deck. It just made everything so much easier to determine what I wanted to bounce or counter or if I could safely advance my own board
Maybe we're all just playing Lim-Dul's vault wrong. We keep thinking of it as "we have all these decision points", but what if we just think of it as a tutor with an rng factor? Decide *before* you play it what card you were looking for, then check through your deck 5 cards at a time for that card and pay as much life as you need to get it. Stop thinking of it as a free "check your deck" but rather as a "tutor with a potential life cost".
Especially if you consider that it should probably average less than 10 health to find exactly what you wanted (+ scrying an extra 4 cards), if you just decide to ignore all the "decision points", it's just a fairly strong tutor with potential upsides if you *really* need it.
thats not how the card works... At this point you can just ban the card in your playgroup if it upsets people so much
It is definitely the kind of card that feels super bad if it's used without a purpose. Looking for a specific type of card or used with Yuriko, it seems like it could be a little less salty.
@@ich3730 Except it is how the card works, just instead of shuffling through your entire deck at once looking for a specific card you go in increments of 5 and then pay for the amount of piles you had to rifle through. If you cut out the decision points for every pile before the one with the card you wanted, you've removed probably 90% of the salt potential of the card.
I agree with this 💯. Players shouldn’t be re evaluating their life choices over and over again while everyone around them is waiting to continue the game.
You really should be hitting the Vault with the intention of getting something 'good enough'. I usually resolve it faster than a conventional tutor because 1 or 2 life is all it takes to find something nice.
DJ and Ashlyn are a great hosting combo, would definitely enjoy more episodes with this dynamic. As for salt, for me it's not a single card but just control as a whole. I just want to play cards too, and when my fourth or fifth thing gets countered / removed my salt comes out.
Cards don’t make me salty, it’s more certain play patterns that make me salty, for example playing against a deck that is unstoppable, or against a deck that has infinite removal, or that takes 20 min turns every turn without winning, or that wins on turn 5 when I expected a longer game, things like that
When I realized I play cyclonic, expropriate, rhystic, tithe, humility and lim dul vault all in the same deck. Now I can see why I get invited less and less to EDH sessions LOL.
Haha kinda xD
Opposition agent is a beautiful card and they need more like it.
I see a man of culture here....
And there for, we salute you.
Agreed, it should have been White though.
@@skyguytomas9615 I play a lot of white id be so down.
Idk why blue got land destruction again. That's the only issue I have with it.
I used to play with a guy who filled every deck with as many wraths as he could. The games took 4-5 hours of pure salt. And during those games he would dump on me for playing stupid strats like playing creatures, just adding to the salt. I once played a demonic tutor which he hated on because he said it made the game predictable, and every game just turned into more of the same. I told him I don't play all wraths just to draw into my win conditions. He took that so personally... Every game I ever had with this person was intolerable. He cheats too, but that's another story
Ugh. No thank you! That person would never be invited back to play with me. ^.^
The most anoying thing about Rhystic and Smothering is that in commander you can face a table with 3 instances of any of them at the same time by multiple players. A constant orchestal polyrhytmical "Do you pay the one or two?" from your opponents.
The only times I have been playing against Cyclonic Rift are games where that player won the game. I think of it as less of a board wipe and more of a "hand me the win" card.
Break the Ice would destroy a lot of utility lands easily enough. I know my artifact deck very rarely needs colored mana so some not great utility lands are in it because they sort of work. But against Break the Ice I would get wrecked with that deck.
My command beacon
A good answer to a Field of the Dead.
Same issue with Ruination, but you need to punish people like me from time to time, who is running way too many non-basic lands :)
An interesting thing is that it also destroys some extremely expensive (money wise) lands like Shops, Urza's Saga and City Of Traitors while being a bulk uncommon.
Ashlen's hair is delightful. The curls and the blue remind me of cotton candy.
I think you missed a key element here with in the 'classic salt' list. It is when the cards keep getting played which makes things salty. So if you play once a week and loose to expropiate 3 weeks out of 4...it be like, does the deck do anything else??
I like cards that make up play with hands open. It’s exciting seeing what everyone draws
49:40 love this. “Feel nothing and become numb” lol
Me too! Made me laugh. And also got this song in my head for the rest of the episode: czcams.com/video/kXYiU_JCYtU/video.html
An interesting way to politic with vorinclex removal is to cut a deal with the other two players where they have to agree to tap the same amount of lands you have to tap to remove it in response to your removal
30:00 We have one player in our group who used to run Telepathy. He doesn't run it any more. We all jump straight to player removal if we can't answer it right away.
I hate that cyc rift is one sided at instant speed, but I really only get salty when it keeps getting recurred over and over making it into a near stax piece
One of my buddies plays a xanathar deck and it is classic rogues, op agent, blatant thievery, etc. and it was salt inducing for some of us… what we did was each made a some Thievy decks, Admiral Beckett, Sedirs, other buddy put stuff like mindflayers in his Volo deck and the plan is to plan a battle royal to determine the king of thieves :) so we took a salty thing and made it into a new experience so we can all try our hands at being a stealer :)
THATS SUCH A FUN IDEA!!
This literally sounds like the most boring game of Commander ever played.
My salty card.
Contamination. {B}2, Enchantment,
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Contamination unless you sacrifice a creature.
If a land is tapped for mana, it produces {B} instead of any other type and amount.
A person played this card and completely shut down half the table and crippled the other half. He had a few different ways to keep that card up and the mana to sustain recurring reliable sacc outlets.
Before watching...gotta be cyclonic rift, rhystic study, mystic remora,esper sentinel smothering tithe. Oh and any extra turn card. Oh and dockside.
We had a guy cast Mystic Remora. It was hilarious as he got one card out if three turns for it.
I cast my mana dork, then a dragon and started swinging.
You forgot to mention that because cyclonic rift is an instant, it can be used to target one player in particular by using it at end step on their turn and they don't have a chance to replay. They have to discard to 7. IDK about you but that it pretty salty not just just the whole idea of one sided board wipes.
Most of the time that is the player who is furthest Ahead so… know when you deserved it.
Nah, it is also used when the blue player themself is ahead. And it just grinds to a halt.
PERPLEXING CHIMERA and AVARICE TOTEM. So much chaos. I love it. Especially if you have 10 mana available. Then you get the totem back and give them something else, like a global enchantment that works anyway.
Great dynamic! Really liked you two together, chatting away. Sweet T-shirt DJ, sweet hair color Ashlen. Thanks for the insights!
I always feel like from time Command Zone forgets how rarely some of us get to play commander.
Love all these cards. Playing them when you can break parity is great. I'm a stax player at heart.
The last time someone cast Expropriate I casted Fury Storm on it that copied 4 times, then everyone just decided to start a new game and I haven't seen a Expropriate since. If you don't want to see those big ol instants and sorceries anymore, just put fork spells in your 99 whenever applicable. This also covers big X spells like Torment, Esxanguinate and the like. Not saying this will stop them 100% but you will see a drastic drop in them being cast.
Generally, I get salty when I'm being prevented from playing the game. If you lock me out of my deck, or shut my deck off, or mill me into oblivion, THAT'S when I get salty, because I have no way of responding to you or trying to make a comeback. That said, if I genuinely get got by something I didn't notice or a combo I couldn't prevent or respond to, I'm not gonna be mad about it. That's the difference.
My take.... the more salty I appear to be the more fun I am having. If your deck makes me salty that means you have a good deck. In the end of the day we are all friends. I'm going to try to make you as salty as possible and I expect the same in return.
Agree!
I play cedh, and it’s really a different beast. There’s a lot less salt when going against things like humility, void winnower, the orbs, etc. hoser cards are expected. They still make people say “fuuuuuuu-” but there’s less groaning. Partially because games are much faster, but also, cedh decks usually have the tools to deal with that stuff. I personally really enjoy playing around and dismantling stax. Don’t get me wrong, we still cause each other some emotional damage
I would say that one of the biggest issue that arises from Cyclonic Rift is that it can set the board at a very 1-sided state, but the caster rarely has a follow-up. What ends up happening is it just slows the game down without making any significant impact on the actual outcome.
Played with a friend that used Capsize (w/ buyback), Tradewind Rider, a few walls, and Seedborn Muse. Once the last key was in place, the game was a loss for everyone else. Everry turn he'd bounce 2 things per person. Sounds okay, until you realize those 2 things were usually lands or things that required a sacrifice or discard effect when put into play. That part sucks so bad, so I relate to the salt with Capsize.
I love breaking out my Urza deck and hearing my play group let out an audible groan 😂 I already know I just became the Archenemy
I've been trying to find a "fair" urza deck; I think urza voltron can be fair tbh
Same I love it. Bring the heat!!! Being archenemy is probably when I have the most fun
@@Oopsall I build urza value just play artifact and try to out value in a fair way.
@@blaze556922 don’t judge a book by it’s cover… I’ve only played it against my friends twice and we’ve been playing every Sunday for months. I only play it when I’m playing cEDH or when everyone says is okay with it. I’m still the archenemy tho 😂
@@blaze556922 and I do? I will say that my playgroup tends to play around a 6-7 so I have around 80% of my decks there
I need to know what spell you countered that dj still had 9 mana to bounce 2 of your lands but you only had 2 blue sources, this just feels like an unbalanced game that needed to end anyways
He might have been going off with an infinite mana combo and she countered the finisher. I would like to know the exact play there as well though
Two blue sources doesn't mean only two lands.
@@joshrivet4011 yeah I misspoke, they said lands were returned
If you have infinite mana to spam capsize you basically already won by bouncing everything on the field so the drawback on the pact isn't even necessary and saves you from anguish 😅
He very easily could have banked up some treasure and cashed it in just to retaliate!
While I understand the argument, "dies to removal" is a cop out to make playing a card okay in someones mind. EVERYTHING DIES TO REMOVAL!
Lim-Dûl's Vault optimal use take so much time... it's horrible to wait
Does any Counter Spell count? It’s obviously annoying, but it is the only way blue can remove stuff besides bouncing back to hand. But unlike other removal it stops anything before it come into play making it better than anything else
I mean at this point blue's suite of random exile effects is actually somewhat decent. It's not as reliant on counterspells anymore
@@NoBody-yr4uf didn’t know blue has exile removal spells. Thats neat
@@Blu_Moon_Owl yeah, stuff like reality shift, ravenform, resculpt, suspend, and old classics like pongify and rapid hybridization. Most of them are a trade off, but normally you're happy to get rid of a huge or problematic creature in exchange for a simple 4/4 or something
@@NoBody-yr4uf oh yeah, I like raven form and pongify
Being a mainly Black and White player, counter spell anything is the bane of my existence. I rarely run them but I feel dirty when I do. Removal can be a pain in the ass but at least I let you play it. 😆
Opposition Agent:
Since you control your opponent while searching their library, you are also allowed to look at their hand and see facedown cards from them.
This makes the card extra salty.
I’m kinda shocked no one said Gaddock Teeg. I have added this card to my Karador deck because I needed a way to shut down spell decks, but it always seems to bring the salt. Also have Hokori, Dust Drinker as well for the same reason, it buys time.
In WUBRG order:
Darksteel Mutation
Imprison in the Moon
Oubliette
Blood Moon
Kenrith's Transformation
@@justcausee yeah, because if it targets a commander you can just change zones and move it back to the command zone and cast it later. With Darksteel, unless they have a sac outlet their commander is fried for the whole game.
All of these cards deserve to be banned. Throw in:
Song of the Dryads
Back to Basics
Drannith Magistrate
Oubliette
Most cards are fine in isolation (except Mindslaver - grrr!).
It's only a problem if the game grinds to a halt and you have to wait for ages while nothing happens.
For example, the 1st extra turn spell is not an issue, but if they're on their 5th extra turn and there's still no end to the game in sight, then I'm starting to get annoyed.
I’m glad I learned about Break the Ice, but I wouldn’t run it to stop a colorless deck, I’d run it to stop field of the Dead. Not only does it destroy the land, but most Field decks run snow lands and sometimes a colorless land so this really punishes the field player.
All you said is true for my tatyova deck and I don’t fear if one bit. Decks that abuse lands abuse them from the grave too.
With the amount of treasure tokens in Commander now, Annihilator is fairly average
Ive noticed this as well. Always a ton of treasure on the board
Someone in my playgroup played Oppression with Tergrid as their commander and I almost lost it.
God that’s such good tech. I might have to put that in my kriik deck. Tergrid is in there but not the commander.
Being salty about a bounce spell because it made you lose due to pact of negation is a bit ridiculous. Pact is a way more salty card itself 😂 If you lose to your own pact you deserve it 😜
Yeah, barring obcene mana Cryptic Command does more work in the same slot. it was a good story though.
43:32 Opposition Agent can't ramp your right? How can you play a land on someone else's turn? You can steal lands and play them on your turn for you land drop but that's not ramp. I'm mainly commenting this because I also got this rule wrong when I first played with the card.
ramp isnt the right term maybe but it does guarantee you a land drop if opp agent isnt destroyed
@@donb7519 cool thing is even if opp agent is destroyed you can still play the cards exiled with it.
@@bigspork7710 don't you need to tap and sacrifice Oppostion Agent to play what has been exiled?
@@brendans1983 You are probably thinking about Dauthi Voidwalker
@@qazior 🤣🍻 yep
One card that I really hate to see in general is Hushbringer, mostly because of the decks I build which don't match up with it. Two of my favorite archetypes are Blink/ETB-based effects and Aristocrats, and this card shut them down. Last time I saw it, they were out turn 2 and next turn it was equipped with Greaves or Boots (don't remember which one but whatever), so everytime that happens I just sit there doing nothing, almost the same way as if I were mana screwed and I get tired the rest of the time.
When your playgroup relies on super tuned mana bases and lives off tutors you run the hell out of opposition agent.
I use to get mad at any form of stax but having used stax in my own deck recently I realized why ppl use them and it is to break parity in a certain color to stop other decks from ramping too hard or storming off.
Probably the most salt inducing effects are wheel/narset effects because it essentially stops everyone else from playing magic and everyone but the player who did the effect are at a severe disadvantage.
The wheel/ narset thing makes sense. I play Yuriko a lot which gets around those because I put the cards in my hand as opposed to drawing them. And stax doesn't bother me too much when it comes to casting spells because ninjutsu is an ability and the MV of the deck is so low even if I do want to cast spells and tap lands. Shows how broken Yuriko is...lol. Also adding Lim-Dul's Vault to the deck, thanks for the inspiration DJ!
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger is so good, and props to y’all for mentioning it here! 🙌
Cyclonic Rift being 1-sided and instant are huge. If someone plays a mid-game or late-game wheel, Rift is basically time to shuffle up and start a new game.
For me it is basically a "I Win" cards as it is always in the hands of a player with counterspells.
It turns the game into a 3v1 and the one wins, a majority of the time. So better hope someone can counter it, and not get countered in turn by Pact of Negation or somesuch.
Those 2 have great chemistry together! Such a good pair of people to host, I would like to see more of this match up!
Saltiest cards for me are Drannith Magistrate (especially when an opponent plays it on turn 2) and Out of Time (my commander is gone until I luck draw into enchantment removal).
Drannith deserves to be banned.
Drannith with possibility storm lmao
Mainly strategies for me and control decks generally have the highest level of salt-inducing cards (MLD, Free Counter/Removal Spells, Rhystic Study, Tithes and Stax). To a lesser extent cards that warp the game around them Seedborn muse. Sometimes you just wanna curve out and go to combat
Cyclonic rift salt levels are all based on timing, it always happens much worse than a one sided wrath.
So the thing with lim-dul's vault is you can stack your deck if you have around 120 life and if your deck is not a multiple of 5. Because the shuffle effect only happens after you get the five cards that you want.
Discard and mill typically make me salty. But I am very much with yall. Things that slow the game down and don't win make me salty.
The card that makes me really salty is,
braids, cabal minion. At my lgs there is a guy who plays her as there commandor, and also has a modern deck with her, and the deck is but so that way he doesn't care that he's sacrificeing his stuff cause he can just bring it back, and it's super effective at shutting down the game and forcing people to sacrifice everything they have, till you have no lands and you just have to keep passing till he wins, you either go off on turn 3 or its pretty much game over
Maybe It's a rule 0 thing in your group, but Braids, Cabal Minion is banned in commander
didn't even know they were banned, the dude just really likes braids, ig I'll bring it to his attention cause I'm tired of playing against it
@@gijsbuiting2292 was just coming here to say this
Takes a real scumbag to make a braids commander deck post ban
Ashlen and DJ, what a combo
Infinite good vibes
I mostly get salty when I... can't play the game... sometimes its being locked out, sometimes it is someone playing Solitaire for 15 minute turns... usually it is mana screw or mana flood though, which I think happens disproportionally often to me... though I am sure there are many that feel that way about themselves, luck is a fickle thing sometimes x_x
Greatest single card that caused me salt is actually one of the few on the ban list, the angel that locks out a color from the game... it can literally just completely screw a single player out of the game unless one of the other players are feeling generous.
Warp World is my number one hated card. Randomize all that setup you did. Great, thanks. Counter on sight.
The Card I find the most irritating is "counterspell" or "Agent of Treachery". Counterspell just affects the pace of the game for me and takes away what I think will be fun to do at a particular time. Agent and other "steal card effects" just take the fun out of what you work so hard to accomplish. Such as if you managed to put in a big beefy creature on the battle field just to have it taken away and used against you....
I JUST realized the "you can't even" joke was a pun XD I thought it was just a meme reference this whole time XD
An overloaded Vandalblast is a salty card for me because I have 3 EDH decks that are centered around artifacts. Nothing like watching all your combo pieces get blown up the ONE turn that you don’t have a counterspell 😭
Lmao get recked artefact player
First comment about stasis enchantment, what if you cast it from a Lulu Loyal Halophant commander deck? If a permanent you control has left the battlefield you add a counter to all tapped creatures and untap all of them. If the creatures happen to be tokens and have "tap: add 1 green mana" that friend of the forest adds... you suffer nothing. Specially if it's a token deck
If you think the Perplexing Chimera is salty in those instances, try cloning it, and see what multiple chimeras do to the stack... ;-)
(I've resisted the temptation, for now, of putting it into my Orvar deck)
I have it in my brudiclad deck. Making 10 chimeras with a new one each turn is so much fun!
Only card on here that can't really be played around is cyc rift. Only card worth being salty over
Honestly if opposition agent was written as "and you may cast cards exiled with it" instead of "and you may play cards exiled with it" then they're would be less feels bad for some people because then at least whoever cast the agent isn't also ramping with those fetches. Having said that, though, if maybe you can't afford to have fetch lands in your deck, then your opponents have an advantage not based off of board state and game decisions which you can't possibly do anything about other than have more money and it's fair to have a card that helps prevent that for the health of the game as a whole.