Rightfully pissed. No one should be claiming that their very real valud struggle means that someone else’s unrelated struggle is actually not that bad.
That part about the law of chastity being the same for everyone is such a moot point. Imagine a law where you’re only allowed into drive if you’re over 6ft tall. Sure the rule is the same for everyone, but that doesn’t mean it has the same *effect* on everyone or that it’s just.
Well, my wife can't drive due to health complications. So technically there are examples of that in real life that are just. I get the analogy, I really do. But it doesn't work.
@@bradensorensen966maybe, but replace driving with something else that isn't outlawed when you have certain health complications. Like getting married.
@bradensorensen966 what you are talking about are legitimate limitations, that would be comparable to children not being able to get married. i think the example with 6 ft minimum is getting at the fact, that there are many more man with that hight than women, so in theory the condition is fair, but in practice it affects some people more then others when it is unjustified
Yeah, that argument is always so smarmy and so deeply disingenuous, because there are obviously circumstances under which straight people can bang with God's blessing, whereas gay people aren't even permitted to be in an asexual or "chaste" same-sex romantic relationship; they either have to resign themselves to a life of solitude, or shack up with someone they can't fully and completely love. Heterosexuals can afford to be glib and handwavey about this because they're not the ones getting screwed over. The "imagine if your religion required you to be gay" example was absolutely perfect, which is why Cardon had to interrupt it. The heterosexuals who parrot these lines would absolutely die on the inside if they were required to suck dick or go to Hell.
I wonder if part of that is that the original version was more focused on history and truth claims. I think that's why they totally passed over history and truth claims this time.
This video is a third version apparently. John filmed a version that was never aired, then there was a version that wad never filmed, and now this one finally worked out.
I think an important distinction when talking about straight versus queer people being treated the same in the church is it’s not just about sexual purity. You cannot act on your “same sex attraction” which means you cannot date the same sex. If me (a girl) and my brother were both dating girls and were chaste in our relationships only one of us wouldn’t be allowed in the temple. Straight and gay people do not have the same standing in the church even if the actions are the same.
My friend and coworker in college had a nervous breakdown because he came out as gay and half of his family disowned him. The other half said something like "you can come over as long as you don't bring your partner." This was only twelve years ago. I visited him when he was hospitalized. He later tried to unalive himself. I don't think most mormon people understand how incredibly hurtful they are while trying to be "accepting" of their gay family, or how devastating it is to be outright disowned. It's almost like the family members who disowned him were trying to punish him so that he would pretend to be straight again.
Thank you so much for mentioning the whole women marrying gay men thing. It’s often overlooked or swept under the rug. The focus seems to be the man overcoming his “struggle” and no time is given to the fact that the woman maybe deserves to be with someone attracted to her, like hello? This has always pissed me off and it never seems to come up when it’s glaringly obvious. Women continue to be treated as commodities, a means to an end or at best a cure or sidekick. Truly sickening. Loved seeing John!! 😆
I so agree. There’s two people in that situation but you tend to only hear about the experience of the man. It also got me thinking about how I’ve never heard of an openly gay LDS woman marrying a straight LDS man… 🤔🤔🤔
Hearing someone talk about how they "used to live a homosexual lifestyle" just makes me so sad for them. I just want to give them a big gay hug and tell them it will all be ok.
No, he said he tried the way that most people in the world live but it didn't make him happy. If he's happier now, let him be happy. Just because he's gay doesn't mean he has to only focus on his same-sex attraction. It doesn't define everything he is.
@@jacobbuzan374 he is a practicing straight man because he is TERRIFIED of going to hell because he has been maliciously brainwashed he entire life! That is literally the ONLY reason! Also, turn that around and see how it sounds… just because you’re straight doesn’t mean you have to focus on opposite sex attraction. I mean, that is completely ridiculous!
Everything Cardon said was so incredibly offensive and demeaning. You don't have to look further than him referring to women as "girls" to infantalize and diminish their personhood. Also, the rants from Tanner throughout were hilarious. I love it! Thanks for a great video y'all!!
@bdermard 100%. Absolutely. I can't remember what was said exactly, but when Cardon said that calling the church a cult was essentially a slur, I had to pause and take a break. The church loves to pretend it is so persecuted. He should come back when he has actually experienced the marginalization and pain from being called slurs.
@@dlariby The words "girl" and "woman" imply age. You wouldn't call a five year old a "woman," so why would you call a 32 year old a "girl"? Context also matters, if I am being condescended and spoken down to and someone calls me a "girl" when I am clearly an adult, it's very clearly not a neutral term. The intention is to infantilize and degrade. I'm sure many people use the word out of habit and are not consciously using it to demean, but at the end of the day language and definitions really matter. It is rare that a grown man is referred to as "boy" casually, in the way that women are often referred to as "girl." I just encourage you to think critically about why certain language is used, even if the intentions seem innocent enough. Implicit bias is a killer.
Mormon men are absolutely convinced that there's gender equality in the Church, but the only faithful woman present wasn't really impressed. I feel bad for Bella, I think she's slowly realizing that they sold her a lemon. From the comments on the original video, I believe that Cardon and Kwaku are already regretting their decision to participate. I think that the South Park episode on Mormonism was better PR for the Church than this video. That Mormon family was a little cooky, but they were happy and kind.
" I have a question for you girls" Not women, girls. He refers to men as men and possible friends. The inequality is so baked in that infantilizing women is not just ok, but so normal as to not even be remarked upon.
“I don’t make the rules, I have leukemia”. That does suck, and it’s unfair. And it’s irrelevant. The trial is tolerating the church’s intolerance and exclusion. Sacrifice and Obedience traded for love. It’s all about commerce! What a Proclamation. Abuse can be expensive. .
I wonder if Tember is happier as a man married to a woman and having children than he was with his "boyfriends" because he never considered he could have a husband and children?! Cause the way he says "boyfriends" it sounds like he never had a meaningful relationship with a man.. doesn't mean it doesn't exist.. but when you believe it's a sin, it's hard to fathom a life where you could just be yourself. Also, if I was Tember's wife I'd be so sad hearing him talk about his marriage in this way.
As a gay exmo who watched multiple people in my family die from cancer, the dude who thought he really did something with his leukemia speech can just.... no. I can't. I feel angry in ways I can't even describe. That was just not it. Also, calling the women "girls" there towards the end of the video 👀 tell me you don't see them as your equal without telling me you don't see them as your equal. Damn dude
The second Cardon said that saying that the lds church is a cult is a slur.... I had to pause the video and walk away for a few hours. I got so angry. This man is fully convinced that he goes through the same struggle as a gay woman of color like me. I can't. I just can't.
Actually, the Episcopal Church has been working to minimize the use of gendered terms when speaking about God, because God isn't male or female. Also, traditionally, in the Church (generally the Christian Church as a whole; I understand some churches have different views now, but before the splits happened) the Holy Spirit was considered the feminine part of the trinity, for trinitarian churches (I understand that the Mormon Church, JWs, and a few other churches are non-trinitarian). The Episcopal Church also ordains women as priests, deacons, bishops, etc., and the Episcopal Church was the first American church to remove the word "obey" from the marriage vows. Oh, and we have had gay marriage and openly gay leadership in the Episcopal Church since before it was fully legalized in the US, and, even when the Anglican Communion tried to kick the Episcopal Church out because of our acceptance of the LGBTQAIA+ community, and our willingness to support female leadership, our presiding bishop said that we are not going back on any of that stuff. He also helped fight for the legalization of gay marriage on the basis of religious freedom before the SCOTUS ruling. That all said, the Episcopal Church is not perfect, but I want to refute the idea that women are treated with greater equity by a church that doesn't allow most of what I have described above.
In Mormonism don't the wives *have* to tell their husbands their heavenly name so that they can enter heaven or something? But the husband is not under the same pressure to do the same.
Yes except it's not that husband's don't have pressure to share their name. It's that their wife is FORBIDDEN from knowing it. The man knows his wife's name but the man's name is a secret
When both my wife and I were still in the cult, I always told her that as soon as I knew I could tell her my name, I would. Felt inspired to tell her in the celestial room in what turned out to be our final time inside that great and spacious building.
Yes and the reason is because literally in the mythology the man will already be in heaven. In the temple the man passes through the veil to see God, and the wife passes through the veil to see her husband. So like, men earn their way to heaven, and they can then take their property in with them.
The idea that the church is fair to the LGBTQ community… and not being up how the institution of the church has gotten politically involved against equal rights. It’s wild.
Oooff that was painful to watch. The Mormon guy with all the crazy opinions was giving me war flashbacks ☠️ I was born and raised in Utah county where most people were LDS... and let me say I've known a lot of mormon men who are just like that guy. i always had issues with male leaders, even when I was still a member because in my experience, if you're a woman they have a way of making you feel so small and powerless. They act like they are smarter than you because they have the priesthood or whatever. Very manipulative narcissistic vibes
9:54 the way Tember phrased his statement gave me the impression that the “difficult topics” were discussed at home rather than at church on Sunday school, which actually validates John’s assertion that the institution withholds that information.
Currently in an AirBnB in Brighton (the gay capital of the UK) and it's like 7am so I have to be quiet but my internal OOOOOH at "Can you name the Relief Society president?" was SO LOUD
I actually just recently resigned from the church and one of my reasons that i listed was Heavenly Mother. I wrote that if women were expected to be the nurturers, why doesn't that translate over to the next life? Why wouldn't Heavenly Mother be able to contact her children?
Did you ever get told that God was protecting her. That he didn't want her name used as a swear word like his is used as as a cuss word. Honestly for me the gender thing is more how I'm treated. I was a primary president and had 2 rooms I was told were the primary's to use for singing time. Even tho I talked to the bishop and the bishop councilor was just over me about moving rooms because we didn't fit. The bishop was on vacation when I made the move. The bishop was pissed off that I made a choice about something so stupid that didn't effect him really. The men always treating me like I'm not good enough to even talk to. My final straw was the prestood preview class that we attended with my daughter who was the only girl in that class. Listening to them give her the boobie prize of getting to get her temple recommend before the boys because she wasn't getting the priesthood broke me. I never realized how stupid it was until I saw someone I loved as much as her be discriminated against. I agree tho heavenly mother would give women power and for whatever reason they can't do that. Not even moving singing time rooms. So yucky.
It’s hard for me to listen to the mental gymnastics and hear the evil in the false equivalencies. I just don’t have the patience for the stupidity anymore and I want to just shake people. I don’t know how John is always able to deal with this stuff and remain calm and measured.
Cardon using the “Leukemia and dying 20 years earlier” argument is appalling when so many LGBT youth die much younger than that because of what they go through in the LDS church.
This is only anecdotal from an elder Millennial pansexual. My observation is people in high control religions that are queer and then come back, or so oppressed and naive when they went into the queer community that they didn't choose healthy relationships ; the fallout problems are then blamed on the queerness and not rightfully at the lack of Education or decision autonomy
Right! I've also found that when people have been raised in a toxic, controlling, abusive, gaslighting environment that has limited their access to experiences and information, their judgment and social-emotional skills will tend to be pretty piss-poor at the start, through no fault of their own. Subsequently, some people will have a tendency to just fall into another cult or shack up with new people who are also controlling or manipulative.
I love to think how amazing it is with all the priesthood power in Utah that miracles don’t make the 6 o’clock news every night somewhere in the state. Sorry just interesting musings
Actually, when I realize the church was crap, it dawned on me how the prophet and apostles other priesthood leaders aren’t going from hospital to hospital healing every person in sight. I feel like we’re lead to believe that the priesthood power is this obscure kind of power that is only harnessed in very Specific private, quiet moments, and how sad it is to realize on the outside, if the priesthood were real, how incredibly amazing and world changing it could really be. I think you made a very good point
I'm actually really grateful for Tember's comments on this video because they represent the "faithful" perspective that all members hear/learn. So many times I see Mormons doing mental gymnastics, or outright denying core doctrines when they represent the church on online platforms. I'm glad people who aren't familiar with the Church can see we ex mos aren't making this shit up!
I agree! I respect the fact that he was willing (for the most part) to actually repeat what mormons say amongst themselves since Kwaku and Cardon were a bit more evasive with their responses.
About the moderator, it's probably a reaction to backlash because they used to just let "debates" happen without a visible moderator or any apparent control.
Tember (the gay Mormon) was raised in a part member family and I think he has said that his Mormon parent was active. So he was basically raised in the church. He also runs a ‘support group’ for ‘same sex attracted’ members which gives me all of the icks. He did a pretty awful video with Ward Radio several months ago.
Back in college like 15 years ago at BYUI, I had a roommate who was a recent convert and she asked me if I knew about racist statements by Brigham Young and I just shrugged my shoulders and said, "You don't question the brethren." Intense fear and shame instantly welled up in me as a lifelong devout mormon at even the thought that she would bring up anything negative about them or question them. Converts don't get that. & any TBM who says differently, or doesn't know the names of at least half of the apostles... did not experience the same church as I did.
Not exclusive to mormons though. That's in the bible - "All that the father hath shall be yours" - for a universal god, having the whole universe is even bigger than just one measly planet.
I wish there was a person on the Mormon side that held orthodox views or at least someone who firmly believed what its members are literally being taught if they’re going to debate with ex Mormons
19:55 Mission nightmares are no joke. I knew a glutton for punishment that joined the Marines once he got off of his mission. He had a rough time in boot camp and took a piece of shrapnel to the ass Forrest Gump style. Even with all of this, he said 90% of his nightmares were LDS mission related.
This is very hard to watch. When you are in the mormon sauce you can't see all the things that now that I'm out I can't stop seeing. So many false equivalencies, so much superciliousness and pretension. I've paused so many times to rant to my cat. :\ Thanks you Samantha and Tanner for weighing in.
I was a TBM for 30 years and never heard "living the Adam and Eve archetype," and it was RARE IMO to see a priesthood holder acting with patience and long-suffering. Everything Cardon said is beside the point anyway.
Thanks ❤ for covering this. I tried to watch the original alone and rolled into an anxiety ball and turned it off after 3 minutes. When you posted a commentary I knew I could watch it and have comedic breaks cause you all lighten it up. THANK YOU!
I also loved how attentive Banksy was upon entering frame; looking at each one of them as they spoke, and then positioning their head toward the video when it played.😊 Too cute.
I don't understand why they needlessly stress young missionaries the way they do. Life is already hard, so there's no reason to physically and emotionally abuse missionaries in order to do what? To force total obedient self-awareness and guilt 24/7? To make sure they root out the "weak"? To "groom them for marriage"?
Thank goodness for informed ex Mormons. Love that that guy comparing having cancer to the bigotry in the church directed at lgbtq people was shut down so easily. Hard to sit through I agree lol
15:36 😂🤣 This cracks me up. I joined the church at 16 in 1979, and left in 1984. Hearing 'the script' 😵💫all these decades later still makes me cringe. 😬
Men arguing about women not being able to have the priesthood to me just feels like white men crying about having to share their power with others in culture in general. Men of color and women? Then I have to share with more people. Women is just too far.
All the mormon missionaries in Europe taught a completely different chu ch doctrine than in America. They taught prayer and God is love and you can be forgiven, then they blind side you with pay tithing, you can't say certain words, you need to listen to priesthood and don't mind Jesus, the big old guy in Salty Lake is more important
I really really appreciate both of you bringing humor to this Jubilee video. It was very triggering for me and it brought up a lot of very negative and sad emotions and I appreciate you guys bringing light heartedness to it. Your humor has been able to help me breathe and let go of a lot of my negative feelings towards this video and the Mormons and they’re cognitive dissidents in it. Thanks for your video. Great content❤️❤️
Having both Cardon and Kwaku feels very scraping the barrel on the part of Jubilee. Would have been better to have an older born into the church type that isn't a pro/hired gun
Just wanted to pop in and say that there actually are some cool chill progressive religions out there. It's possible to have both religion as a source of culture and meaning and community WITHOUT all the icky controlling aspects. I was raised reform Jewish (the most common Jewish movement in the United States) and believing in God wasn't even a requirement. I could both A) not believe in god and B) still be a considered a good jew.
I watched the whole thing and thought- can’t fucking wait for Zelph to react to this shit hahaha I really gotta stop raw dogging jubilee videos without cool people reacting to it lol
I don't know if somebody else already answered this in the comments, but I watched Carah Burrell's video and she said that they filmed this debate a long time ago but that they never posted it because the Mormon side was miscast so badly to the point that John dehlin mopped the floor with them. So it was no fun. So they recast it and filmed a new debate.
I watched Carahs video as well, however, i interpreted what was stated differently. I understood there was an episode that was not aired. This episode was a new one. I also think there was a planned debate that was not tralized. Which is refered to in this episode.
19:50 yes that is so true, yet when you’re a returned missionary, you’re supposed to say that it is the “two best years” of your life. I wanted to be done with my mission towards the end.
1:23:07 second comment! This comparison is such bullshit, he’s comparing social media influence to institutional power! If she posted something like “let gay couples get married in the temple”, that wouldn’t change the temple ceremony and she would certainly be released from her calling! If the prophet said “gay couples can get temple married”, then we’d actually see the change!
I wonder if the “mixed-orientation marriage” statistics includes bisexual people who are married to heterosexual/homosexual people? I will have to look more into all that because I think that still counts as “mixed-orientation” but has vastly different connotations
considering how bisexuality is often overlooked, it might not account for it at all. it's probably just about the marriages where one is attracted to the other, and the other is sexually unfulfilled and forcing themselves to pretend they're as happy as can be.
Okay I got curious and looked at his Instagram page and the way he posts about his wife is sooo icky and demeaning to me 😩 Idk maybe she likes being posted in that way but if my husband only referred to me as "my smoking hot wife" and constantly posted zoomed in pics of my feet in high heels I would feel very objectified. It seems 90% of what he has to say about her publicly is praising her hotness & showing off her body
@@liddlekitten and she's really f****** smart. You know what I'm saying dog .. that was all sarcasm as I'm sure you're well aware of. If he's trying to go for the morning show radio niche of Mormon podcasts. I think he's nailed it. But I'm pretty sure that's a niche market in a niche market of Niche markets. He should probably make videos about baby sharks or something and he would get a lot more views. I'm not sure he is saving Mormonism the way he thinks he is. But he is going to die from leukemia soon enough anyhow. So I'm going to allow him to be as childlike as he wants to be. And I'm going to continue making fun of him
Tanner, you think in dimensions, very rare.... you hear what was said, and analyze, in real time, and relate your available information, you'd make a good detective.....
Y'all's rants were honestly so therapeutic for me, especially the one after the cancer debacle -- can't believe he thought that was going to make him look good. That pissed me off so much ugh. Also the bit from Tember about joy in christ being better than his boyfriends -- so your relationship with Jesus, another man, is better than your relationships with your boyfriends, also men? What about your wife dude? She got mentioned like, twice?
Crazy that I went to the singles ward with Tember and was somewhat close to him. Never heard from him after I left and then seeing his say vile shit on this jubilee video had me going wilddddd.
The most telling thing for me, outside of this video, was the reaction videos that both Ward Radio and Mormon Stories Podcast did. The grace that Mormon Stories gave everyone in the video (within reason) vs. the immature and foul behavior that Ward Radio showed spoke VOLUMES on critical thinking, accountability, and acceptance.
I’m with ya I hate it when ppl say “judeo christian” that’s an American thing, that has spread out to other European countries. It’s not a “stolen valour” thing though, Judaism isn’t better than Christianity, in some sects it’s way worse, it’s just a completely different religion at this point & conservatives have been programmed to say it.
I kept getting this jubilee video recommended to me and couldn’t bring myself to watch it…this was the absolute best and only way I could possible stomach that video so thank you both so much for your perspective and deep thought! ❤
Great reaction guys. I’m really enjoying watching reactions from various ex Mos. I especially loved Tanner’s reaction to Cardon. That was exactly how I felt watching it.
Ya Tember is not bisexual fyi. Just in case someone else hasn’t mentioned it yet. He doesn’t go on a lot of shows so people may not know his story, I just happen to have seen him before. He became a Mormon & married a women but still has “SSA” & from how he talks isn’t attracted to women at all. Which if true, his poor wife.
This has been my favorite commentary I've watched on this Mo vs ExMo video. You guys voice pretty much all the thoughts i had while watching it myself, and I really appreciate it Sending all the good love your way!
Part two is up now on Patreon! www.patreon.com/posts/98248271?
Gotta pay the bills somehow 🙃😜
As my mom says, “if you have to keep telling someone they’re equal, then they aren’t equal.”
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Yep. As a gay, exmo, cancer survivor I was pissed.
I was astonished that he said that. As if cancer only affects straight people. I'm sorry for what you must have had to go through.
You sound like a badass person, hope you're doing well
You should've just increased your gayness in exchange for less cancer.
That part seriously pissed me off so fucking much! Comparing a REAL terminal illness to being gay… like… HOW DARE YOU!
Rightfully pissed. No one should be claiming that their very real valud struggle means that someone else’s unrelated struggle is actually not that bad.
That part about the law of chastity being the same for everyone is such a moot point. Imagine a law where you’re only allowed into drive if you’re over 6ft tall. Sure the rule is the same for everyone, but that doesn’t mean it has the same *effect* on everyone or that it’s just.
👏🏻👏🏻
Well, my wife can't drive due to health complications. So technically there are examples of that in real life that are just. I get the analogy, I really do. But it doesn't work.
@@bradensorensen966maybe, but replace driving with something else that isn't outlawed when you have certain health complications. Like getting married.
@bradensorensen966 what you are talking about are legitimate limitations, that would be comparable to children not being able to get married. i think the example with 6 ft minimum is getting at the fact, that there are many more man with that hight than women, so in theory the condition is fair, but in practice it affects some people more then others when it is unjustified
Yeah, that argument is always so smarmy and so deeply disingenuous, because there are obviously circumstances under which straight people can bang with God's blessing, whereas gay people aren't even permitted to be in an asexual or "chaste" same-sex romantic relationship; they either have to resign themselves to a life of solitude, or shack up with someone they can't fully and completely love.
Heterosexuals can afford to be glib and handwavey about this because they're not the ones getting screwed over.
The "imagine if your religion required you to be gay" example was absolutely perfect, which is why Cardon had to interrupt it. The heterosexuals who parrot these lines would absolutely die on the inside if they were required to suck dick or go to Hell.
Cara said the first filming was scrapped because the mormons they cast didnt actually have the background necessary to stand up to the exmos
Amazing ✨✨✨
El oh el
If that’s true. They definitely picked some very weak intellect minds, because the ex Mormons didn’t offer much.
I wonder if part of that is that the original version was more focused on history and truth claims. I think that's why they totally passed over history and truth claims this time.
This video is a third version apparently. John filmed a version that was never aired, then there was a version that wad never filmed, and now this one finally worked out.
I think an important distinction when talking about straight versus queer people being treated the same in the church is it’s not just about sexual purity. You cannot act on your “same sex attraction” which means you cannot date the same sex. If me (a girl) and my brother were both dating girls and were chaste in our relationships only one of us wouldn’t be allowed in the temple. Straight and gay people do not have the same standing in the church even if the actions are the same.
👏🏻👏🏻
Someone should have asked Cardon how he’d feel if the church barred him from the temple for taking his Lukemia pills.
Ouch!!!!!!!
he'd probably argue that no one would die if they didn't "act on their same sex attraction."
I said “OOOOOOOOOOH” out loud
My friend and coworker in college had a nervous breakdown because he came out as gay and half of his family disowned him. The other half said something like "you can come over as long as you don't bring your partner." This was only twelve years ago. I visited him when he was hospitalized. He later tried to unalive himself. I don't think most mormon people understand how incredibly hurtful they are while trying to be "accepting" of their gay family, or how devastating it is to be outright disowned. It's almost like the family members who disowned him were trying to punish him so that he would pretend to be straight again.
💔💔💔
Thank you so much for mentioning the whole women marrying gay men thing. It’s often overlooked or swept under the rug. The focus seems to be the man overcoming his “struggle” and no time is given to the fact that the woman maybe deserves to be with someone attracted to her, like hello? This has always pissed me off and it never seems to come up when it’s glaringly obvious. Women continue to be treated as commodities, a means to an end or at best a cure or sidekick. Truly sickening.
Loved seeing John!! 😆
I so agree. There’s two people in that situation but you tend to only hear about the experience of the man. It also got me thinking about how I’ve never heard of an openly gay LDS woman marrying a straight LDS man… 🤔🤔🤔
Great points!!
Absolutely. It’s a great example of the sexism in the church. Thank you for adding that perspective.
Hearing someone talk about how they "used to live a homosexual lifestyle" just makes me so sad for them. I just want to give them a big gay hug and tell them it will all be ok.
Seems to me, he was trying WAY too hard to put forth the Peter Priesthood Mormon boy, who just so happens to be gay…
No, he said he tried the way that most people in the world live but it didn't make him happy. If he's happier now, let him be happy. Just because he's gay doesn't mean he has to only focus on his same-sex attraction. It doesn't define everything he is.
@@jacobbuzan374 he is a practicing straight man because he is TERRIFIED of going to hell because he has been maliciously brainwashed he entire life! That is literally the ONLY reason! Also, turn that around and see how it sounds… just because you’re straight doesn’t mean you have to focus on opposite sex attraction. I mean, that is completely ridiculous!
Also imagine how unfair and heartbreaking it is to be his wife??
@@ndoina_ RIGHT!
Dillan here, from the Jubilee video. I absolutely loved this reaction video. You both have tremendous energy and I'd love to be on your show someday.
DILLAN!!!!!!! 💜💜💜💜
What’s your insta?!
dillanconrad, the one with the roller coaster profile picture :) My first name is usually misspelled, even on extremely popular CZcams videos ;)
I have John saying "that's a yes or no, that's a yes or no" on an infinite loop in my head and it is my sole source of peace
Hahahhaa
Everything Cardon said was so incredibly offensive and demeaning. You don't have to look further than him referring to women as "girls" to infantalize and diminish their personhood.
Also, the rants from Tanner throughout were hilarious. I love it! Thanks for a great video y'all!!
i had to pause the video and come back after ten minutes when he said he’d love to hear what “you girls think”
Oh, you’re one of those who find the term “girl” offensive? Maybe some actually like being called that? It makes you seem younger than woman.
When did that term become offensive? It used to be completely normal as far as I know
@bdermard 100%. Absolutely. I can't remember what was said exactly, but when Cardon said that calling the church a cult was essentially a slur, I had to pause and take a break. The church loves to pretend it is so persecuted. He should come back when he has actually experienced the marginalization and pain from being called slurs.
@@dlariby The words "girl" and "woman" imply age. You wouldn't call a five year old a "woman," so why would you call a 32 year old a "girl"? Context also matters, if I am being condescended and spoken down to and someone calls me a "girl" when I am clearly an adult, it's very clearly not a neutral term. The intention is to infantilize and degrade. I'm sure many people use the word out of habit and are not consciously using it to demean, but at the end of the day language and definitions really matter. It is rare that a grown man is referred to as "boy" casually, in the way that women are often referred to as "girl." I just encourage you to think critically about why certain language is used, even if the intentions seem innocent enough. Implicit bias is a killer.
Mormon men are absolutely convinced that there's gender equality in the Church, but the only faithful woman present wasn't really impressed. I feel bad for Bella, I think she's slowly realizing that they sold her a lemon.
From the comments on the original video, I believe that Cardon and Kwaku are already regretting their decision to participate. I think that the South Park episode on Mormonism was better PR for the Church than this video. That Mormon family was a little cooky, but they were happy and kind.
Oooh
“Magically give women the priesthood…” The priesthood is *literally* magic!
It’s only magic if it’s not in the m y t h o l o g y
" I have a question for you girls"
Not women, girls. He refers to men as men and possible friends. The inequality is so baked in that infantilizing women is not just ok, but so normal as to not even be remarked upon.
YUP
“I don’t make the rules, I have leukemia”. That does suck, and it’s unfair. And it’s irrelevant. The trial is tolerating the church’s intolerance and exclusion. Sacrifice and Obedience traded for love. It’s all about commerce! What a Proclamation. Abuse can be expensive.
.
I wonder if Tember is happier as a man married to a woman and having children than he was with his "boyfriends" because he never considered he could have a husband and children?! Cause the way he says "boyfriends" it sounds like he never had a meaningful relationship with a man.. doesn't mean it doesn't exist.. but when you believe it's a sin, it's hard to fathom a life where you could just be yourself. Also, if I was Tember's wife I'd be so sad hearing him talk about his marriage in this way.
Toooootally
-25:28 it's so telling that even though there's a churchgoing woman there, the Mormon men are speaking first
“Mitt Romney is out, soaking is in.” Iconic.
As a gay exmo who watched multiple people in my family die from cancer, the dude who thought he really did something with his leukemia speech can just.... no. I can't. I feel angry in ways I can't even describe. That was just not it.
Also, calling the women "girls" there towards the end of the video 👀 tell me you don't see them as your equal without telling me you don't see them as your equal. Damn dude
Yeah, "you girls" when addressing all the women in the room and then saying "... man to man..." when addressing Dillon. Very telling.
@@unicorntamer2207 💯💯💯
The second Cardon said that saying that the lds church is a cult is a slur.... I had to pause the video and walk away for a few hours. I got so angry.
This man is fully convinced that he goes through the same struggle as a gay woman of color like me. I can't. I just can't.
Oh god I must have missed that???
Actually, the Episcopal Church has been working to minimize the use of gendered terms when speaking about God, because God isn't male or female. Also, traditionally, in the Church (generally the Christian Church as a whole; I understand some churches have different views now, but before the splits happened) the Holy Spirit was considered the feminine part of the trinity, for trinitarian churches (I understand that the Mormon Church, JWs, and a few other churches are non-trinitarian). The Episcopal Church also ordains women as priests, deacons, bishops, etc., and the Episcopal Church was the first American church to remove the word "obey" from the marriage vows. Oh, and we have had gay marriage and openly gay leadership in the Episcopal Church since before it was fully legalized in the US, and, even when the Anglican Communion tried to kick the Episcopal Church out because of our acceptance of the LGBTQAIA+ community, and our willingness to support female leadership, our presiding bishop said that we are not going back on any of that stuff. He also helped fight for the legalization of gay marriage on the basis of religious freedom before the SCOTUS ruling.
That all said, the Episcopal Church is not perfect, but I want to refute the idea that women are treated with greater equity by a church that doesn't allow most of what I have described above.
In Mormonism don't the wives *have* to tell their husbands their heavenly name so that they can enter heaven or something? But the husband is not under the same pressure to do the same.
Yep!
Yes except it's not that husband's don't have pressure to share their name. It's that their wife is FORBIDDEN from knowing it. The man knows his wife's name but the man's name is a secret
@@PrincessMicrowave Thank you for clarifying.
When both my wife and I were still in the cult, I always told her that as soon as I knew I could tell her my name, I would.
Felt inspired to tell her in the celestial room in what turned out to be our final time inside that great and spacious building.
Yes and the reason is because literally in the mythology the man will already be in heaven. In the temple the man passes through the veil to see God, and the wife passes through the veil to see her husband.
So like, men earn their way to heaven, and they can then take their property in with them.
The idea that the church is fair to the LGBTQ community… and not being up how the institution of the church has gotten politically involved against equal rights. It’s wild.
Oooff that was painful to watch. The Mormon guy with all the crazy opinions was giving me war flashbacks ☠️ I was born and raised in Utah county where most people were LDS... and let me say I've known a lot of mormon men who are just like that guy. i always had issues with male leaders, even when I was still a member because in my experience, if you're a woman they have a way of making you feel so small and powerless. They act like they are smarter than you because they have the priesthood or whatever. Very manipulative narcissistic vibes
"...a little bit of gayness....."? 😡😡😡😡😡😡🤬
Cardon Ellis is a dirtbag
"I would trade even a little of Tember's gayness....." I can't even.....
9:54 the way Tember phrased his statement gave me the impression that the “difficult topics” were discussed at home rather than at church on Sunday school, which actually validates John’s assertion that the institution withholds that information.
Currently in an AirBnB in Brighton (the gay capital of the UK) and it's like 7am so I have to be quiet but my internal OOOOOH at "Can you name the Relief Society president?" was SO LOUD
We love Brighton!!
That leukemia part was so cringe…ew. Such an irrelevant argument. As most religious arguments are
I feel very concerned for that woman he married, she must be feeling VERY used right now
probably has before now. he obviously has plenty of beliefs that make her feel like nothing more than an accessory to him.
I actually just recently resigned from the church and one of my reasons that i listed was Heavenly Mother. I wrote that if women were expected to be the nurturers, why doesn't that translate over to the next life? Why wouldn't Heavenly Mother be able to contact her children?
YES
Did you ever get told that God was protecting her. That he didn't want her name used as a swear word like his is used as as a cuss word.
Honestly for me the gender thing is more how I'm treated. I was a primary president and had 2 rooms I was told were the primary's to use for singing time. Even tho I talked to the bishop and the bishop councilor was just over me about moving rooms because we didn't fit. The bishop was on vacation when I made the move. The bishop was pissed off that I made a choice about something so stupid that didn't effect him really.
The men always treating me like I'm not good enough to even talk to. My final straw was the prestood preview class that we attended with my daughter who was the only girl in that class. Listening to them give her the boobie prize of getting to get her temple recommend before the boys because she wasn't getting the priesthood broke me. I never realized how stupid it was until I saw someone I loved as much as her be discriminated against. I agree tho heavenly mother would give women power and for whatever reason they can't do that. Not even moving singing time rooms. So yucky.
It’s hard for me to listen to the mental gymnastics and hear the evil in the false equivalencies. I just don’t have the patience for the stupidity anymore and I want to just shake people. I don’t know how John is always able to deal with this stuff and remain calm and measured.
Cardon using the “Leukemia and dying 20 years earlier” argument is appalling when so many LGBT youth die much younger than that because of what they go through in the LDS church.
This is only anecdotal from an elder Millennial pansexual. My observation is people in high control religions that are queer and then come back, or so oppressed and naive when they went into the queer community that they didn't choose healthy relationships ; the fallout problems are then blamed on the queerness and not rightfully at the lack of Education or decision autonomy
Right! I've also found that when people have been raised in a toxic, controlling, abusive, gaslighting environment that has limited their access to experiences and information, their judgment and social-emotional skills will tend to be pretty piss-poor at the start, through no fault of their own. Subsequently, some people will have a tendency to just fall into another cult or shack up with new people who are also controlling or manipulative.
Cardon looks like he bullies kids playing little league baseball
I love to think how amazing it is with all the priesthood power in Utah that miracles don’t make the 6 o’clock news every night somewhere in the state. Sorry just interesting musings
Actually, when I realize the church was crap, it dawned on me how the prophet and apostles other priesthood leaders aren’t going from hospital to hospital healing every person in sight. I feel like we’re lead to believe that the priesthood power is this obscure kind of power that is only harnessed in very Specific private, quiet moments, and how sad it is to realize on the outside, if the priesthood were real, how incredibly amazing and world changing it could really be. I think you made a very good point
I'm actually really grateful for Tember's comments on this video because they represent the "faithful" perspective that all members hear/learn. So many times I see Mormons doing mental gymnastics, or outright denying core doctrines when they represent the church on online platforms. I'm glad people who aren't familiar with the Church can see we ex mos aren't making this shit up!
I agree! I respect the fact that he was willing (for the most part) to actually repeat what mormons say amongst themselves since Kwaku and Cardon were a bit more evasive with their responses.
Kwaku: "No, I'm not, but what are you?" "Other people are also just as bad." Also constant word salad.
Hehe... Cardon powertripping his mormon priesthoods by donning the general authority cosplay.
Isn't it cosplay all the way down?
The cat in the corner is the most important part of this video. More cat pls.😻😻
About the moderator, it's probably a reaction to backlash because they used to just let "debates" happen without a visible moderator or any apparent control.
Tember (the gay Mormon) was raised in a part member family and I think he has said that his Mormon parent was active. So he was basically raised in the church. He also runs a ‘support group’ for ‘same sex attracted’ members which gives me all of the icks. He did a pretty awful video with Ward Radio several months ago.
Back in college like 15 years ago at BYUI, I had a roommate who was a recent convert and she asked me if I knew about racist statements by Brigham Young and I just shrugged my shoulders and said, "You don't question the brethren." Intense fear and shame instantly welled up in me as a lifelong devout mormon at even the thought that she would bring up anything negative about them or question them. Converts don't get that. & any TBM who says differently, or doesn't know the names of at least half of the apostles... did not experience the same church as I did.
32:24 - “None of the good things about it are exclusive to Mormonism.” Oh yeah? What about getting your own freakin’ planet!? 🌍
Didn’t they walk that one back?!
@@ZelphOntheShelf Oh, true… then I guess there’s no longer anything uniquely positive.
They ran out of planets to give away... 😂🌎🌎🌎
@@Richard.Atkinson😂😂😂
Not exclusive to mormons though.
That's in the bible - "All that the father hath shall be yours" - for a universal god, having the whole universe is even bigger than just one measly planet.
I wish there was a person on the Mormon side that held orthodox views or at least someone who firmly believed what its members are literally being taught if they’re going to debate with ex Mormons
cardon: magically change the power structure of the LDS church? No need for magic. Perfectly within human abilities.
19:55 Mission nightmares are no joke. I knew a glutton for punishment that joined the Marines once he got off of his mission. He had a rough time in boot camp and took a piece of shrapnel to the ass Forrest Gump style. Even with all of this, he said 90% of his nightmares were LDS mission related.
This is very hard to watch. When you are in the mormon sauce you can't see all the things that now that I'm out I can't stop seeing. So many false equivalencies, so much superciliousness and pretension. I've paused so many times to rant to my cat. :\ Thanks you Samantha and Tanner for weighing in.
I was a TBM for 30 years and never heard "living the Adam and Eve archetype," and it was RARE IMO to see a priesthood holder acting with patience and long-suffering. Everything Cardon said is beside the point anyway.
Thanks ❤ for covering this. I tried to watch the original alone and rolled into an anxiety ball and turned it off after 3 minutes. When you posted a commentary I knew I could watch it and have comedic breaks cause you all lighten it up. THANK YOU!
💜💜💜!
The cat just watching in the corner is so healing ❤
Banksy 🥰💖
I also loved how attentive Banksy was upon entering frame; looking at each one of them as they spoke, and then positioning their head toward the video when it played.😊 Too cute.
I don't understand why they needlessly stress young missionaries the way they do. Life is already hard, so there's no reason to physically and emotionally abuse missionaries in order to do what? To force total obedient self-awareness and guilt 24/7? To make sure they root out the "weak"? To "groom them for marriage"?
Thank goodness for informed ex Mormons. Love that that guy comparing having cancer to the bigotry in the church directed at lgbtq people was shut down so easily. Hard to sit through I agree lol
15:36 😂🤣 This cracks me up. I joined the church at 16 in 1979, and left in 1984. Hearing 'the script' 😵💫all these decades later still makes me cringe. 😬
Men arguing about women not being able to have the priesthood to me just feels like white men crying about having to share their power with others in culture in general. Men of color and women? Then I have to share with more people. Women is just too far.
Cardon is in full panic mode. They've been none stop insulting and trying to "debunk" everything the exmormon team said.
Crazy cultists lol
they shoulda done all the scrambling before the filming lmao
All the mormon missionaries in Europe taught a completely different chu ch doctrine than in America. They taught prayer and God is love and you can be forgiven, then they blind side you with pay tithing, you can't say certain words, you need to listen to priesthood and don't mind Jesus, the big old guy in Salty Lake is more important
1:07:58 Interesting that God didn't speak to the Mormon prophets earlier that woman are equal to men and should be treated equally here on earth.
Well, God also forgot to mention that black people are equal, too. Must've left all of those notes in his other pair of magical underwear.
Lots of organizations are bad but youd expect the one true church to be at least a little ahead of the curve instead of behind it
Behind it by 40 to 60 years at minimum at that.
I really really appreciate both of you bringing humor to this Jubilee video. It was very triggering for me and it brought up a lot of very negative and sad emotions and I appreciate you guys bringing light heartedness to it. Your humor has been able to help me breathe and let go of a lot of my negative feelings towards this video and the Mormons and they’re cognitive dissidents in it. Thanks for your video. Great content❤️❤️
Having both Cardon and Kwaku feels very scraping the barrel on the part of Jubilee. Would have been better to have an older born into the church type that isn't a pro/hired gun
I would have loved to see a Dan Wotherspoon type of mormon represented here.
Who do you think would have volunteered? 😏
Just wanted to pop in and say that there actually are some cool chill progressive religions out there. It's possible to have both religion as a source of culture and meaning and community WITHOUT all the icky controlling aspects. I was raised reform Jewish (the most common Jewish movement in the United States) and believing in God wasn't even a requirement. I could both A) not believe in god and B) still be a considered a good jew.
I watched the whole thing and thought- can’t fucking wait for Zelph to react to this shit hahaha I really gotta stop raw dogging jubilee videos without cool people reacting to it lol
I don't know if somebody else already answered this in the comments, but I watched Carah Burrell's video and she said that they filmed this debate a long time ago but that they never posted it because the Mormon side was miscast so badly to the point that John dehlin mopped the floor with them. So it was no fun.
So they recast it and filmed a new debate.
I watched Carahs video as well, however, i interpreted what was stated differently. I understood there was an episode that was not aired. This episode was a new one. I also think there was a planned debate that was not tralized. Which is refered to in this episode.
Jill was spot on in her responses and explanations.
19:50 yes that is so true, yet when you’re a returned missionary, you’re supposed to say that it is the “two best years” of your life. I wanted to be done with my mission towards the end.
1:23:07 second comment! This comparison is such bullshit, he’s comparing social media influence to institutional power! If she posted something like “let gay couples get married in the temple”, that wouldn’t change the temple ceremony and she would certainly be released from her calling! If the prophet said “gay couples can get temple married”, then we’d actually see the change!
I wonder if the “mixed-orientation marriage” statistics includes bisexual people who are married to heterosexual/homosexual people? I will have to look more into all that because I think that still counts as “mixed-orientation” but has vastly different connotations
considering how bisexuality is often overlooked, it might not account for it at all. it's probably just about the marriages where one is attracted to the other, and the other is sexually unfulfilled and forcing themselves to pretend they're as happy as can be.
I have long said that religion is an institution that you can never graduate from
Cardon made a "choice" to have Leukemia/s Cardon also calls his wife "Britney the shadow"
The shadow???
Cardon is like a Mormon gone wrong.
@@ZelphOntheShelf he has a lot of respect for her/s
Okay I got curious and looked at his Instagram page and the way he posts about his wife is sooo icky and demeaning to me 😩 Idk maybe she likes being posted in that way but if my husband only referred to me as "my smoking hot wife" and constantly posted zoomed in pics of my feet in high heels I would feel very objectified. It seems 90% of what he has to say about her publicly is praising her hotness & showing off her body
@@liddlekitten and she's really f****** smart. You know what I'm saying dog .. that was all sarcasm as I'm sure you're well aware of. If he's trying to go for the morning show radio niche of Mormon podcasts. I think he's nailed it. But I'm pretty sure that's a niche market in a niche market of Niche markets. He should probably make videos about baby sharks or something and he would get a lot more views. I'm not sure he is saving Mormonism the way he thinks he is. But he is going to die from leukemia soon enough anyhow. So I'm going to allow him to be as childlike as he wants to be. And I'm going to continue making fun of him
Tanner, you think in dimensions, very rare.... you hear what was said, and analyze, in real time, and relate your available information, you'd make a good detective.....
Y'all's rants were honestly so therapeutic for me, especially the one after the cancer debacle -- can't believe he thought that was going to make him look good. That pissed me off so much ugh. Also the bit from Tember about joy in christ being better than his boyfriends -- so your relationship with Jesus, another man, is better than your relationships with your boyfriends, also men? What about your wife dude? She got mentioned like, twice?
Black people couldn't vote, sure, but some white men people had leukemia !
cult is an...(checks cardon's notes)... anti-mormon slur.
Crazy that I went to the singles ward with Tember and was somewhat close to him. Never heard from him after I left and then seeing his say vile shit on this jubilee video had me going wilddddd.
I enjoyed this only because of your commentary both You guys are spot on and wise beyond your years thanks
I very much appreciated the Groundhog Day opening.
hahah glad you caught it!
The most telling thing for me, outside of this video, was the reaction videos that both Ward Radio and Mormon Stories Podcast did. The grace that Mormon Stories gave everyone in the video (within reason) vs. the immature and foul behavior that Ward Radio showed spoke VOLUMES on critical thinking, accountability, and acceptance.
John in a hoodie is so weird
Yeah, that threw me a little, too.
😂
I've tried watching this jubilee video a few times but find it very triggering. For context: never Mo, queer recovering from evangelicalism.
honestly, i have the same response as an exmormon watching similar evangelical content.
@@daltonperry9761 it's wild how close the responses are for folks who've left these churches. Whether Mormon or not, we respond similarly.
I’m with ya I hate it when ppl say “judeo christian” that’s an American thing, that has spread out to other European countries.
It’s not a “stolen valour” thing though, Judaism isn’t better than Christianity, in some sects it’s way worse, it’s just a completely different religion at this point & conservatives have been programmed to say it.
Oh. My. God. No wayyyyy! I’m so nervous to watch this
-1:17:00 my new years resolution to work on my shoulders is being reinforced by Tanner's developing physique
HE HAS BEEN LIFTING AND ITS AFFECTING ALL OF US!!!
Tember seemed especially in denial.
I kept getting this jubilee video recommended to me and couldn’t bring myself to watch it…this was the absolute best and only way I could possible stomach that video so thank you both so much for your perspective and deep thought! ❤
thanks for posting! i wanted to watch this jubilee video but def couldn't do it alone ❤
I was VICIOUSLY waiting for y’all to make a response video to this...the way that I audibly gasped at 42:50
Great reaction guys. I’m really enjoying watching reactions from various ex Mos. I especially loved Tanner’s reaction to Cardon. That was exactly how I felt watching it.
Can we just take a moment for Sam's Percy Pig mug! 😂😍🥰❤️
🥰🥰
Finally getting a chance to sit down and watch! Nothing like a bowl of curry and Zelph video on a long weekend!!!!
Eeeeee
Your insights are golden
5:18 sound like he was raised Mormon ("Christian ") and came back as a "convert"
The comments about his leukemia were very random, had nothing to do with the subject, and were quite rehearsed
Team Mormon sure picked an interesting person to represent them. Faith is clearly required, not critical thinking.
I wouldn’t consider the ex- Mormon side any better at critical thinking. They both failed in many ways.
@@sammiller4321 please explain
@@sammiller4321 good luck explaining that. these three exmos displayed excellent critical thinking.
Ya Tember is not bisexual fyi. Just in case someone else hasn’t mentioned it yet. He doesn’t go on a lot of shows so people may not know his story, I just happen to have seen him before. He became a Mormon & married a women but still has “SSA” & from how he talks isn’t attracted to women at all. Which if true, his poor wife.
Yeah we realized that! 🙈
I feel bad for him, but worse for her.
"Honey, flip over; I want to see your bussy. Gobbless; hallelujah."
It is so nice to have watched the Jubilee video before this and see you guys react almost the same ways i did. 10/10. Love Zelph on the Shelf
This has been my favorite commentary I've watched on this Mo vs ExMo video. You guys voice pretty much all the thoughts i had while watching it myself, and I really appreciate it Sending all the good love your way!
the sheer joy that flooded me when i heard the groundhog day radio intro