It's really not that one is worse than the other. Small bore trombones are meant almost exclusively for jazz and pop music, whereas large bore trombones are meant for most orchestra, concert band, and marching band settings. Love all your videos, and you're such a great player! Keep it up.
All of these reasons are why I honestly prefer the 525 medium bore trombones, because I honestly feel like they have the best of everything from the small bore and large bore. The absolute finest trombone I ever played throughout my life of playing trombones was a Vintage Yamaha 525 bore
That's actually why I don't like .525s that much- they feel like they don't do anything as well as the horns on either side. I really enjoy my "new" 36K but I'm not sure what I'll actually be able to use it for.
I keep wanting to get my hands on a YSL-646 or YSL-645: guys like Jimmy Knepper and Dave Marriott Jr. play/ed that size horn. That sound is what's in my head. It's not the right sound for salsa or second-line music, though you could probably make one work. Think Herbie Hancock's _Fat_Albert_Rotunda_, though: _that_ sound.
i have a Conn 7H .525 from around1990. It's a UMI Conn, so it should be utter shite. Actually though, it s rather good. Very versatile. Usually I use a Rath R10 stock horn, but I do enjoy using my 7H .
I used to have a Silver Sonic as well, but with an F attachment. Even with the attachment, it was really bell-heavy. They sound great, but it's not something I wanted to stand with for hours. The brass versions are way better in that respect, especially counterweighted.
I just picked up my first student trombone. It's a Buescher Aristocrat, early '70s (a high grade Selmer Bundy). I find the trombone a lot more fun than I was expecting. Large bore and medium bore trombones are completely different instruments, both in tone and in range. I think the large bore should be referred to as the baritone.
Small bore or dual bore takes less energy is easier to play softer in your home sounds great with my old standards like “ Stella by Starlight” & “ On a clear day “ ....that said I like T-Bones regardless of bore size... thx for this video
That's probably because you're already a fabulous player! Student-model horns are a little harder to color (they're significantly heavier), but I suspect their reputation is due more to the people normally playing them and the condition they're often in, rather than the horn actually being defective.
To me there are different applications for large and small bore trombones. I use a small bore for lead trombone work in big bands. The large bore I use in symphonic/orchestral settings.
Question for you- selling my Bach 36 in order to subsidize the cost of a large bore horn that'll last me the rest of the way through college- what do you think of the Bach 42? Will it give me what I need to go on and play in larger orchestras and ensembles, or is there something more serious than the Bach 42 I should be looking at? Budget of about $2500 for the moment.
Useful video, what tenor Trombone would you suggest for professional military marching band ? I'm looking for one that has a rich and mellow sound rather than bright and stridant.
here’s a question: do professional jazz players play on small bore or large bore? bc you differentiate small bore trombones from “professional” trombones and it seems to me like the majority of straught tenor trombones (the type that jazz players usually use) are small bore.
Almost all are on small bore. Professional really just denotes design and build quality- there are professional models of all sizes. Student trombones are typically also small bore, which is why some people will see small bore straight trombones as "student level."
There are some great ones playing on .547 or larger equipment: Steve Turre, Robin Eubanks, Joshua Roseman, and historically, Slide Hampton and Curtis Fuller. Slightly smaller at .525 are guys like Jimmy Knepper, Dave Marriott Jr., and Nick Finzer. But most folks you see are going to be on .508 bore or smaller: they're lighter, and it's easier to put the percussive edge on the attacks you need for big band, latin, etc.
I imagine you have addressed this, but I don’t recall seeing it in a dedicated video… Could you please go over the grip assists you use? I play a Bach 12, a 42B, and a 50B without any ‘help’. And I’m wanting to get something, especially for my bass trombone. Thanks!
The grip on the small bore tenor should be a neotech trombone grip. I have that on both of my large bore horns and it's tremendously helpful for keeping up a relaxed grip. Especially for me, since I came late to trombone playing and thus lack the strength associated with years of constant practise. It's pretty affordable at around 20-30$. Longevity may be a bit questionable though, given it uses neoprene, plastic and velcro. That said mine has been lasting for more than 3 years so far and the worst that happened is that the neoprene got slightly frayed at the edges. You do need to be a bit mindful about the placement of the velcro part though.
They're massively different instruments on average. It really depends on the situation and the particular horn. Some .500s are very light and play with a smaller sound, like the Fedchock model from XO, while the Bach 12 I'm borrowing at the moment almost sounds larger and fatter than a similar Bach 36 I'm borrowing. .525s also have a quite a large spectrum, from the 3B+ to the Bach 36 and Shires/Edwards .525s. Personally, I find the .508 size to be a nice sweet spot- I can do most of the small bore things pretty easily, without a huge adjustment period like some smaller horns require. .525 is pretty difficult for me because it lands directly between the .508s I'm used to and the .547s I'm used to, both playing- and sound-wise. That's not to say I don't like them, but it takes me longer to get in the groove with those instruments.
Would you recommend a single valve bass bone for someone switching from tenor to bass or should i get a double valve bass? Also what would you recommend for about a 1500 budget
If you're on a budget for a bass trombone, I say take a look at the bass trombones from a company by the name of Schiller. I've tried out two different instruments from them, and they are absolutely the best instrument company in the world when we're talking about "bang for your buck". I purchased a trumpet from them about a month ago and my band teacher bought two four valve euphoniums from this company a little over a year ago, and I was very impressed with the quality of the instrument. The valves and slides were working wonderfully right out of the case on both instruments I tried (LITERALLY!), And I'm figuring that maybe their line of trombones will have just as good of quality as the other two instruments. So I say go in that direction.
I'm seeing some nice-looking dual-valve basses in that price range from Dillon Music out in New Jersey. Used dual-trigger Yamahas often go for that on eBay as well. You could probably also score a used JP Rath horn for that if you keep your eyes open.
@@pitgroove.37_66 I know this comment is old now but I have their alto horn and baritone horn. I like the baritone but the alto has issues (the valves need to be oiled every time I play it and the tuning slide trigger has an adjustment screw or something that likes to resonate with the horn). The tuning and tone seem fine, but the valve and resonating trigger thing on the alto keep me from wanting to play it more. The alto horn was less than $800 and the baritone horn was less than $1000 though. It was good bang for my buck and they do seem alright for getting stuff you wouldn't otherwise be able or willing to get but I'd also encourage someone to shop used if they can find the kind of instrument they want in a similar price range. $1500 might be tricky for a two valve bass trombone though.
Personally, I feel as if most of the pros are improved upon by just moving up to a *medium* bore trombone, rather than a small bore. The King 3B Plus, for example. It has .525 bore size and finds a nice middle ground between the small bore of ~.508 or large bore of .547. This allows all the conveniences and ease of brightness of a small bore, while still having the warmth of a large bore.. Really, my biggest issue with small bores is just *volume.* The volume difference between a small bore and large bore is quite insane when put in a full group setting. My most notable characteristic is just that I'm a really loud player... But when I experimented with using my small bore horn, when the band went to full out volume, it's like I just ceased to exist. It may be one of the only times I've ever been told to play louder since high school... And I was putting everything I had into it. This is just my opinion, but I feel as if unless you're like absolutely dead set on using a small bore horn for whatever reason... Medium bore horns are just way more versatile, for playability. But I do admit, price and availability will always be in favor of small bores.
Personally, I find the medium bore to be really not useful (having owned 2 Bach 36s). I really like them, they are amazing instruments... but I never used them.
We have it in our brains to love lower frequencies. That's why there are "bassheads" and the bass at any live event is super dialed up. It's not always true, but lower, darker, etc is heard as better.
Only in the world of the trombone has this unproductive separation grown up to cause a rift between commercial and classical methods and equipment: Small bore trombones are authentic, but harder to manufacture a good or pure tone on, which is why so many talented small-bore players have distinctive or 'character' sound instead that comes to define them rather than simply generically good tone. Orchestral players do not have the option of substituting 'character' for tone. Many talented and famous orchestral trombonists cannot manage a good sound on a small-bore or alto trombones for just this reason. However well employed or successful they have become, they don't have the embouchure mechanics necessary to tonal purity, but it doesn't manifest as obviously on a large equipment. The sound of small-bore horns fits, works, and does better service within the context of any ensemble (including historical orchestras) because it links up more with the trumpets (with whom it is more often paired in orchestration than the french-horn) which is why so many working professionals play them commercially. The sound of their larger, louder, and more euphonic brothers may sooth the ear, mask defect of embouchure and tone, and flatter the ego of players, amateur and professional alike, who care too much how an instrument sounds in isolation of the practice room, but at the cost of transparency due to congestion of sound. The sound of the trombone section in a modern orchestra is all but lost, despite now playing many degrees louder to try to offset their dulling-down into obscurity. Orchestral trombones have lost their...'teeth' for having lost their edge. Playing louder to compensate is just destructive to the transparency of the orchestration. The fear of being 'brassy' and being rejected musically by the string and wind players who denigrate legitimate brass participation and contribution at volume manifests as occult or unaccounted low-brass low-self-esteem. Next trumpet players will adopt cornets again, or worse...flugelhorns then pursue the volume to compensate? Cornet players went in the right direction when switching to the brighter herald of trumpets. Trombones have gone the wrong direction because the mandatory requirement for 'pure' sound would eliminate too many talented players from gainful employment. The ear craves 'bass', but boosting the mid-range to create that illusion just robs the sound.
Some of this isn't far of... but you should hear some of those top orchestral trombonists, they have character coming out of their ears, even on the big horns. Not everyone, that's for sure!
It's really not that one is worse than the other. Small bore trombones are meant almost exclusively for jazz and pop music, whereas large bore trombones are meant for most orchestra, concert band, and marching band settings. Love all your videos, and you're such a great player! Keep it up.
All of these reasons are why I honestly prefer the 525 medium bore trombones, because I honestly feel like they have the best of everything from the small bore and large bore.
The absolute finest trombone I ever played throughout my life of playing trombones was a Vintage Yamaha 525 bore
That's actually why I don't like .525s that much- they feel like they don't do anything as well as the horns on either side. I really enjoy my "new" 36K but I'm not sure what I'll actually be able to use it for.
I keep wanting to get my hands on a YSL-646 or YSL-645: guys like Jimmy Knepper and Dave Marriott Jr. play/ed that size horn. That sound is what's in my head. It's not the right sound for salsa or second-line music, though you could probably make one work. Think Herbie Hancock's _Fat_Albert_Rotunda_, though: _that_ sound.
i have a Conn 7H .525 from around1990. It's a UMI Conn, so it should be utter shite. Actually though, it
s rather good. Very versatile. Usually I use a Rath R10 stock horn, but I do enjoy using my 7H .
I used to have a Silver Sonic as well, but with an F attachment. Even with the attachment, it was really bell-heavy. They sound great, but it's not something I wanted to stand with for hours. The brass versions are way better in that respect, especially counterweighted.
I just picked up my first student trombone. It's a Buescher Aristocrat, early '70s (a high grade Selmer Bundy). I find the trombone a lot more fun than I was expecting.
Large bore and medium bore trombones are completely different instruments, both in tone and in range. I think the large bore should be referred to as the baritone.
I got a king 2b for 750 in an auction on ebay a while back. It works great for jazz and stuff, much better than my Greenhoe for it lol
2b produces a lovely sound
Small bore or dual bore takes less energy is easier to play softer in your home sounds great with my old standards like “ Stella by Starlight” & “ On a clear day “ ....that said I like T-Bones regardless of bore size... thx for this video
I see it like this:
*Bass Trombone* Level 3 (Best)
/\
|
|
*F-Attachment Tenor* Level 2
/\
|
|
*Straight Tenor* Level 1 (worst)
ah
you're one of those
bro what???
I once played lead for a pit gig and used a Bach TB300 (student model) and nobody knew the difference.
That's probably because you're already a fabulous player! Student-model horns are a little harder to color (they're significantly heavier), but I suspect their reputation is due more to the people normally playing them and the condition they're often in, rather than the horn actually being defective.
Student models are already good instruments. There even are some pros who are happy with a good "student" horn.
To me there are different applications for large and small bore trombones. I use a small bore for lead trombone work in big bands. The large bore I use in symphonic/orchestral settings.
Yup! I think a lot of people miss that, though.
Question for you- selling my Bach 36 in order to subsidize the cost of a large bore horn that'll last me the rest of the way through college- what do you think of the Bach 42? Will it give me what I need to go on and play in larger orchestras and ensembles, or is there something more serious than the Bach 42 I should be looking at? Budget of about $2500 for the moment.
A good 42 will last a lifetime. Some of the best players in the world are on 42s.
@@AidanRitchie Reassuring to hear! Thanks & keep up the good work my friend!
Useful video, what tenor Trombone would you suggest for professional military marching band ? I'm looking for one that has a rich and mellow sound rather than bright and stridant.
Straight? F attachment? Small bore? Large bore?
here’s a question: do professional jazz players play on small bore or large bore? bc you differentiate small bore trombones from “professional” trombones and it seems to me like the majority of straught tenor trombones (the type that jazz players usually use) are small bore.
Almost all are on small bore.
Professional really just denotes design and build quality- there are professional models of all sizes. Student trombones are typically also small bore, which is why some people will see small bore straight trombones as "student level."
There are some great ones playing on .547 or larger equipment: Steve Turre, Robin Eubanks, Joshua Roseman, and historically, Slide Hampton and Curtis Fuller. Slightly smaller at .525 are guys like Jimmy Knepper, Dave Marriott Jr., and Nick Finzer. But most folks you see are going to be on .508 bore or smaller: they're lighter, and it's easier to put the percussive edge on the attacks you need for big band, latin, etc.
I imagine you have addressed this, but I don’t recall seeing it in a dedicated video…
Could you please go over the grip assists you use?
I play a Bach 12, a 42B, and a 50B without any ‘help’. And I’m wanting to get something, especially for my bass trombone.
Thanks!
I maybe have in the past, but I'll do a video about the many methods I use!
Thank you. I'll be watching for it!
The grip on the small bore tenor should be a neotech trombone grip. I have that on both of my large bore horns and it's tremendously helpful for keeping up a relaxed grip. Especially for me, since I came late to trombone playing and thus lack the strength associated with years of constant practise.
It's pretty affordable at around 20-30$. Longevity may be a bit questionable though, given it uses neoprene, plastic and velcro. That said mine has been lasting for more than 3 years so far and the worst that happened is that the neoprene got slightly frayed at the edges. You do need to be a bit mindful about the placement of the velcro part though.
Can you briefly comment on a small bore .500 verses a .525 medium bore playability and sound plus degree of difficulty?
They're massively different instruments on average. It really depends on the situation and the particular horn. Some .500s are very light and play with a smaller sound, like the Fedchock model from XO, while the Bach 12 I'm borrowing at the moment almost sounds larger and fatter than a similar Bach 36 I'm borrowing.
.525s also have a quite a large spectrum, from the 3B+ to the Bach 36 and Shires/Edwards .525s.
Personally, I find the .508 size to be a nice sweet spot- I can do most of the small bore things pretty easily, without a huge adjustment period like some smaller horns require.
.525 is pretty difficult for me because it lands directly between the .508s I'm used to and the .547s I'm used to, both playing- and sound-wise. That's not to say I don't like them, but it takes me longer to get in the groove with those instruments.
Would you recommend a single valve bass bone for someone switching from tenor to bass or should i get a double valve bass? Also what would you recommend for about a 1500 budget
I find the single bass to be pretty useless if you actually want to play bass trombone music. They're usually great horns, but just so limited.
If you're on a budget for a bass trombone, I say take a look at the bass trombones from a company by the name of Schiller. I've tried out two different instruments from them, and they are absolutely the best instrument company in the world when we're talking about "bang for your buck".
I purchased a trumpet from them about a month ago and my band teacher bought two four valve euphoniums from this company a little over a year ago, and I was very impressed with the quality of the instrument. The valves and slides were working wonderfully right out of the case on both instruments I tried (LITERALLY!), And I'm figuring that maybe their line of trombones will have just as good of quality as the other two instruments. So I say go in that direction.
I'm seeing some nice-looking dual-valve basses in that price range from Dillon Music out in New Jersey. Used dual-trigger Yamahas often go for that on eBay as well. You could probably also score a used JP Rath horn for that if you keep your eyes open.
@@pitgroove.37_66 I know this comment is old now but I have their alto horn and baritone horn. I like the baritone but the alto has issues (the valves need to be oiled every time I play it and the tuning slide trigger has an adjustment screw or something that likes to resonate with the horn). The tuning and tone seem fine, but the valve and resonating trigger thing on the alto keep me from wanting to play it more.
The alto horn was less than $800 and the baritone horn was less than $1000 though. It was good bang for my buck and they do seem alright for getting stuff you wouldn't otherwise be able or willing to get but I'd also encourage someone to shop used if they can find the kind of instrument they want in a similar price range. $1500 might be tricky for a two valve bass trombone though.
Personally, I feel as if most of the pros are improved upon by just moving up to a *medium* bore trombone, rather than a small bore. The King 3B Plus, for example. It has .525 bore size and finds a nice middle ground between the small bore of ~.508 or large bore of .547. This allows all the conveniences and ease of brightness of a small bore, while still having the warmth of a large bore..
Really, my biggest issue with small bores is just *volume.* The volume difference between a small bore and large bore is quite insane when put in a full group setting. My most notable characteristic is just that I'm a really loud player... But when I experimented with using my small bore horn, when the band went to full out volume, it's like I just ceased to exist. It may be one of the only times I've ever been told to play louder since high school... And I was putting everything I had into it.
This is just my opinion, but I feel as if unless you're like absolutely dead set on using a small bore horn for whatever reason... Medium bore horns are just way more versatile, for playability. But I do admit, price and availability will always be in favor of small bores.
Personally, I find the medium bore to be really not useful (having owned 2 Bach 36s). I really like them, they are amazing instruments... but I never used them.
Qual é o Melhor King ou Yamaha ?
They both make good horns!
Did you play in " game music ensemble UCLA"?
Yup! I still do.
why do people think bright sound is bad exactly?
We have it in our brains to love lower frequencies. That's why there are "bassheads" and the bass at any live event is super dialed up. It's not always true, but lower, darker, etc is heard as better.
I don't know if you like open things
Size: this is a big one for me
Wait. What is he talking about ?
Small bore trombones are called noobbones at my school lol
I wouldn't brag about that!
Man, kids can be rough sometimes.
Buy yourself an Olds Recording from the late 1950s.
The Olds don't really work for me, especially when no one plays them around you! A singular sound.
NO man. KING 2B is the "small bore"...... I.M.O. KING 3B is NOT small bore F.Y.I. ......... so sorry. you are mistaken
3B is considered a small bore these days as well. Different size obviously, but it's not a medium .525.
Only in the world of the trombone has this unproductive separation grown up to cause a rift between commercial and classical methods and equipment:
Small bore trombones are authentic, but harder to manufacture a good or pure tone on, which is why so many talented small-bore players have distinctive or 'character' sound instead that comes to define them rather than simply generically good tone. Orchestral players do not have the option of substituting 'character' for tone.
Many talented and famous orchestral trombonists cannot manage a good sound on a small-bore or alto trombones for just this reason. However well employed or successful they have become, they don't have the embouchure mechanics necessary to tonal purity, but it doesn't manifest as obviously on a large equipment.
The sound of small-bore horns fits, works, and does better service within the context of any ensemble (including historical orchestras) because it links up more with the trumpets (with whom it is more often paired in orchestration than the french-horn) which is why so many working professionals play them commercially.
The sound of their larger, louder, and more euphonic brothers may sooth the ear, mask defect of embouchure and tone, and flatter the ego of players, amateur and professional alike, who care too much how an instrument sounds in isolation of the practice room, but at the cost of transparency due to congestion of sound.
The sound of the trombone section in a modern orchestra is all but lost, despite now playing many degrees louder to try to offset their dulling-down into obscurity. Orchestral trombones have lost their...'teeth' for having lost their edge. Playing louder to compensate is just destructive to the transparency of the orchestration.
The fear of being 'brassy' and being rejected musically by the string and wind players who denigrate legitimate brass participation and contribution at volume manifests as occult or unaccounted low-brass low-self-esteem. Next trumpet players will adopt cornets again, or worse...flugelhorns then pursue the volume to compensate?
Cornet players went in the right direction when switching to the brighter herald of trumpets. Trombones have gone the wrong direction because the mandatory requirement for 'pure' sound would eliminate too many talented players from gainful employment. The ear craves 'bass', but boosting the mid-range to create that illusion just robs the sound.
Some of this isn't far of... but you should hear some of those top orchestral trombonists, they have character coming out of their ears, even on the big horns. Not everyone, that's for sure!