XCP-NG vs Xen vs XenServer vs KVM vs Proxmox
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- čas přidán 18. 06. 2024
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XCP NG VS Proxmox 2022 And Why I Chose...
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⏱️ Timestamps ⏱️
00:00 Xen vs XenServer vs KVM vs Proxmox
02:37 Xen VS XenServer
05:26 Xen & KVM at AWS
08:54 Citrix, Redhat, and KVM History
10:49 Technichal Differences KVM VS XEN
13:33 The Future of XEN
14:25 Proxmos VS XCP-NG
19:21 Misc questions and Final Thoughts
#virtualization #xcpng #kvm - Věda a technologie
Forum Post
forums.lawrencesystems.com/t/xen-vs-xenserver-vs-kvm-vs-proxmox/14256
XCP NG VS Proxmox 2022 And Why I Chose...
czcams.com/video/xB22GKGJkHY/video.html
XCP-NG Forums
xcp-ng.org/forum/
www.linux-kvm.org/
xenproject.org/users/why-xen/
⏱ Timestamps ⏱
00:00 Xen vs XenServer vs KVM vs Proxmox
02:37 Xen VS XenServer
05:26 Xen & KVM at AWS
08:54 Citrix, Redhat, and KVM History
10:49 Technichal Differences KVM VS XEN
13:33 The Future of XEN
14:25 Proxmos VS XCP-NG
19:21 Misc questions and Final Thoughts
Have you checked out Harvester yet? Looks interesting
@@CliffR I don't have a use case for it, but Techno Tim has a video on it czcams.com/video/tVsMen_e6OI/video.html
@@LAWRENCESYSTEMSif xcp-ng is FOSS , then can it be modified in such a way that it can match the features of xenserver?
Thanks for sharing Tom, I enjoyed that, going to pop over to your forum for a read later.
In my opinion , XCP-NG is overkill for people who run just a couple of VM's. Its bit enterprise in nature. Whereas Proxmox is very straight forward and takes just a couple of minutes in its installation from scratch to running first VM. You can do lot of fun things in both XCP-NG and Proxmox. Tom has done excellent job in explaining XCP-NG in great detail in his various CZcams Video's. Highly appreciable job. As an enthusiast , one should try both the virtulisers, and should settle down to a particular virtuliser based on his/her use case.
I think a better choice of investing your time in this would not be to try them both before deciding .. but to read about how they differ from one another. They are simply different products. This is not about preference. It’s about choosing the right solution to a specific challenge. Otherwise your not putting the mission or client in the top priority .. but maybe your own preference based on lack of understanding.
virtualbox direct on work computer is faster than proxmox.. if you have time to setup extra server with its own os, proxmox is not simpler than vmware/xen based solutions
@@exow5552 Who sets up their home/work computer to run sever applications? That's good for quickly testing software or whatever, but for actually running something 24/7 like a NAS you wouldn't install it on the exact same hardware you work on, that'd be kinda pointless, especially considering it isn't the sort of computer you'd usually leave running, at least half of the reason to setup something like that is so that all your devices can access what you're hosting at all times and unless something has changed in the past few years I have to disagree, I've tried both, either is easy enough to get going but I find proxmox is mildly more straight forward, although the others do have nicer web interfaces.
@@exow5552 Yes. You are correct. You have to just install virtual box and fire vm with iso. It is simple and neat. But you can not pass on fun stuff like pass thru disk or graphic card with Virtual Box as in the Proxmox. Besides you can not create lxe containers [ takes hardly any resources ] , you can not connect external storage, etc etc..
@@MR-vj8dn Reading is nothing but relying on someone's experience. You actually need to try on you own. You need to understand the technology, workflow, cost implications, time spending, flexibility and extensibility. No one understand your practical issues. Own experience is always a better way of learning. During this you can read what others have said in the matter. So you will get 365 degree of understanding.
I like both proxmox and xcp-ng+xen-orchestra equally.
Proxmox needs the following to win me over:
Multi Cluster management and inter-cluster migration just like how xen-orchestra can. Export a guest disk or vm into any format (ova, vhd, etc). Disk and VM imports need to a thing in the web interface. Do away with seeing vms as a number and instead use a UUID. Better tags and interface as hundreds of vms becomes a pain.
Xen-Orchestra/XCP-NG needs the following: Use a proper open source and compatible hyperconverged solution such as ceph instead of xo-San. Tpm support (coming soon), allow support for importing and exporting disk formats such as qcow2.
Promox not being able to properly import ova is a huge issue for me and the company I work for. So many companies offer their products in ova format with all needed requirements built in. You can import it in promox but it loses all the requirements. SMH. Also exports are painful. Not sure how or why this isn't fixed yet.
Another nice comparison, and an interesting perspective. Thanks.
Your XCP-NG videos impressed me and I started playing with it, as a possible replacement for ESXi we have at work. However, just yesterday I discovered that XCP-NG does not allow memory overprovisioning, and in fact will not start a VM if there's not enough physical memory for it!
That was quite a shock, and is absolutely a showstopper for us. Memory deduplication in ESXi means we're consistently able to run ~350 GB worth of VMs on a 256 GB system and have not swapped/ballooned anything yet (so no slowdown of any kind). And if we ever do balloon, hey, it still works just fine. Those are not performance critical systems.
This is the kind of critical info that I'm hoping to get from those comparisons :)
Yeah true, while I love Tom and value his opinion, he's a bit too biased as he just doesn't know KVM too in-depth to compare Xen to it. Memory deduplication in fact is totally a thing on Linux / KVM with ksmd. Proxmox even has it enabled by default.
Want to solve your problem? Add more RAM 😂
@@MR-vj8dn I know you joke but I can seriously tell you I wish Threadripper took registered DIMMs.... without that, 256 GB is unfortunately the limit.
@@LampJustin ksmd is actually a little "too enabled" on Proxmox. I don't recall the exact thresholds, but if you install Proxmox on zfs, by default, something like 50-60% of the ram is allocated to the ARC. On a host with something like 128+ gb of ram, this isn't really much of a problem. But a lot of people run Proxmox on something like a NUC, where 16-32 gb of ram might be the max allowed, and in such conditions, just 1-2 VMs can trigger ksmd to start trying to dedupe ram. It doesn't appear as much of a load in top, but since it's using up memory bandwidth, it's actually a performance hit of 15-20% IIRC.
@@kchiem good to know. I always wondered how that would work out with ZFS, but since I'm on btrfs I didn't know. It would really be nice for Proxmox to include settings in the WebGUI to limit ZFS Arc usage and the ksmd threshold. It wouldn't even be hard to do. The backend would only need to print the flags to sysfs and update a file in modprobe.d.
More good stuff. I have spent time reading the XCP-NG forums, and there Oliver Lambert responds to posts regularly; they really do have an effective support community.
And talking diversity etc - Vates is a French company based in Grenoble, elsewhere most activity is in North America.
Thanks for the great content Tom and Oliver
Excellent, just excellent video. Thanks Tom.
Given the availability of both projects, I'm about to spin up both of my older HP Z420 workstations and try them both out in a direct head-to-head comparison.
For me, what I want to evaluate is migrating my VMs OFF of VirtualBox and what I will be testing for is ease of migration and also performance.
That'll be an interesting project for me to do.
Sounds fun!
Great explanation! Loved it. Would something similar, but broader scope, be possible to explore history of all major hypervisors, including Hyper-V and bhyve?
a few things id love to see, since they watch and i need something to replace vmware.
1. training with a cert path
2. an app store of sorts to download os from say turnkey linux, deb or even windows to make it similar to a cloud deployment of an os
Here is an example of the great communication to educate the public.
Have you ever used or researched UDS as a virtualise software? I come across them when looking for a self hosting citrix application virtualization services but they seem to do a lot of virtualization too 🙂
just in time Tom. Wish to see more content on KVM.
Watching your TrueNAS Core vs TrueNAS Scale video, you mention XCP-NG as your virtualisation platform for which I went "What's that?". XCP-NG website is littered with your videos and I watch some, including this one. You probably can guess by now what I am aiming to do. So, maybe I will give SCP-NG a try instead of TrueNAS Scale, although I was hoping for containers integration too (which I can probably do on XCP-NG with a VM running Portainer). Thanks for guiding my choices with your excellent reviews Tom.
This is the first video I've watched from you, immediately subbed!!!
For the last 2 days I've been trying to get KVM run at near bare metal performance on my old laptop so I can remotely access my VMs from my M1 mac.
I've never done this before, been reading a lot of docs, articles and just got more and more confused by the whole KVM/XEN/QEMU thing as many projects I've stumbled upon use two of these at the same time, PLUS LIBVIRT.
I feel like I finally understand it all a little bit better!
Thanks a lot!!!
Have you succeed to get at least close to bare metal performance tho?
I wonder if it will be possible to integrate some of the open source gpu multiplexing into xen once the project is more mature. From what I understand, it will not take long to integrate it into KVM, but Xen is a whole different animal.
Citrix had its time....
Only reason I went with proxmox over XCP-NG is because I had played with proxmox before and decided to continue using it when I wanted to start hosting things in my homelab. If or when things start to break massively I will give XCP-NG a fair shake and see if I like it more. After watching both of your videos I can see why you prefer one over the other.
I am a hard core ProxMox user myself. Very easy to setup and manage. Very stable. I am not doing anything crazy like CEPH which I've used before. Using ZFS replication between nodes and it's been working great. ProxMox Backup Server been working great as well.
I've been watching your videos on this series. Been trying to decide if I'm going with proxmox or xcp-ng on my new n6005 router box. Thanks for posting this updated video.
I'm a homelab user who is about to play with XCP-ng for the first time. From what I've heard PCIe passthrough requires manually changing kernel boot options which may be reset with some updates as well as complicated command line operations using UUIDs. Is this the case, and if it is, are there plans to introduce a more user-friendly interface?
Yes and I don't think that is on the roadmap
Great video! Have you ever played with Nutanix and their KVM-based hypervisor called AHV?
Nope, not on my list to do so either.
@@LAWRENCESYSTEMS Cool, thanks for videos
So little off topic but as a hobbies I have an UnRaid server that is my Windows Gaming VM that is headless for streaming, I run dockers on my Synology NAS, and I’m also starting to build out a PiCluster to lear kubernetes and to run some home services. When the Zen 7000 comes out I’m planning to upgrade my UnRaid box and want to is my x470 board and 2700X to learn Proxmox or XPC-NG and host some game servers. Something that I have not found much info on is how many game servers can be hosted per VM?
The Craft Computing CZcams channel has tutorials and information about running virtualization for gaming systems.
@@LAWRENCESYSTEMS I’ll check it out. I’ve seen his content about GPU passthrough which I am doing now, but I haven’t seen anything about hosting servers. I’ll have to take another look.
@@LAWRENCESYSTEMS I should also mention that I really got into this side of things because I believed that cloud gaming and using web services was going to be the future before it ever was a thing…if only I had the money to invest in it back then!
I dislike anything Citrix related by default. Olivier's post changed my mind about XCP-NG. It's great to see this kind of engagement.
I'm in neither camp... How 2015, goes along with the Me To...
When you're ready for productivity...
The Rancher/ Harvester HCI solution allows for the efficiency of resource utilization with Containers, on the lowest security level, kata containers KVM for a secure container & KubeVirt VM's for complete isolation all running next to one another.
how is tpm coming along under xcp? can't load a W11 vm without it, also Xen Orchestra needs a bit of a makeover I find myself going back to Xen Center to manage things, but I am still learning, thanks for the video Tom :)
They will have TPM soon, you can do everything in XO, it's just a matter of knowing how.
That "Xen Orchestra needs a bit of a makeover" is why Im so excited about Xen Orchestra version 6, hope after that after release of it, I will not look back to XenCenter anymore 🙂
Interesting. Here I'd like to see some one who can explain us, why KVM, not Type1, could be less secure; or If is it really possible to jump VM to VM.
I would like to know about support options it's a different ball game when you run software in a enterprise environment. Redhat and Microsoft provide fantastic support VMware has been a hit or miss. We are currently evaluating a hypervisor switch and so far I have KVM, and Azure HCI on my list I will have to investigate XCP-NG.
The support for XCP-NG & XO is great.
I would like to know, do you have any videos on how to create a fax server in proxmox, freepbx, or xenserver?
I have not used any Fax server sofware
I am so glad I haven't seen your videos lately on xcp-ng.
I've recently got new servers to replace our existing ovirt cluster that was using shared storage.
Unfortunately RHEV/Ovirt has been sunsetted by Red hat in favor of openshift with the KVM module.
Tried it out and I really didn't care for it because it's actually a kubernetes system and I don't have that many containers to manage. I have more virtual machines still.
So then I tried harvester and rancher in combination. Again I feel like I could support this very well because I'm not familiar with kubernetes systems. But rancher did make it extremely easy so I'm intrigued by that product now. Mainly because I got some workloads I'd love to run and containers instead of dedicated vms.
But now comes my question, do you know of anybody that is running rancher with xcp-ng? I will admit, I was getting spoiled pretty quickly with ranchers ability to spin up new virtual nodes via harvester on demand and automatically. I'm wondering if there's any way to extend that functionality with this system.
oVirt was NOT sunsetted. the project is still alive. RedHat themselves decided to shift away from using oVirt [RHEV was downstream ovirt, they determined what was stable and had their version]. RedHat/IBM decided to push forward with OpenShift.
anything professional aka real business needs Type 1
very fast testsetup could be virtualbox/kvm Type 2
but even predeployment test/devel shld match live setup so shld be same as Type 1 sooo if company gets bigger its more cist effective to just abandon all Type 2 hypervizor technologies and focus on what truly matters ;-)
Hey Tom great videos, perhaps you can tell us if the is a backup solution in XCP, proxmox, etc that allows you to restore OS single items, I'm talking about veeam-vmware solution were you can restore individual user files or application items. A mayor thing that keeps me out of things like XCP is the backup solution built around it, by no means veeam is perfect but allows me to do amazing stuff just like I said before.
Restore individual items and stuff, cloud connect or the availability to attach S3 object storage for remote immutable backups, tape support, etc, are a few things that people still use out there or rely on to keep a 3-2-1 backup solution.
I think that this kind of thing should be taking in consideration when you compare products, its not the hypervisor and the orchestrator alone but the entire ecosystem around them.
Thanks
That can be done with Xen Orchestra xen-orchestra.com/docs/backups.html#file-level-restore but I think granular file level backups are best left to tools best suited for that task, Veam, MSP360, Comet Backup, Synology, etc...
Can Proxmox or XCP use advanced VM things? Things like Direct IO / SV-IOV or vGPU with Tesla cards.
I know that Proxmox can totally do vGPU with Nvidia cards as the driver will just create mediated devices (mdev) that you can pass through to a VM like you would with any over PCI device. On Proxmox (or any other Linux) you can even run a vGPU unlock script to use consumer GPUs from Nvidia to do the same.
While I know that Xen/XCP-NG totally, supports PCI passthrough, I don't know about vGPUs/mdev devices.
@@LampJustin I believe XCP only supports vGPUs for AMD cards
If you mean SR-IOV? Then proxmox can do all you listed. Not sure about XCP-NG
I would like Tom to take a proper deeper look at proxmox because his comparison didn't even touch the sides for proxmox
I don't have time for that, watch Jay from LearnLinux TV's videos.
@@LAWRENCESYSTEMS That's fair. But then you should avoid comparisons for things you don't actually use. I support the use of xen for a lot of reasons, but a comparison has to be fair or just not done at all. Plain simple.
I was working with AWS when they went with KVM and at that time they were requiring users to shutdown and restart VMs as part of the cutover. If they weren't moving existing systems to the new KVM stack then why many everyone do that?
Taking that action does not mean they moved to a different hypervisor.
@@LAWRENCESYSTEMS obviously, but as a customer I was informed that was the reason for restarting the VMs.
Is there an SDK available for hypervisor ?
xcp-ng.org/docs/api.html
I would be happy with proxmox if it could support my EVE-NG pro vm and it's nested virtualization, but it can't =\
The reason the comment disappeared was probably that it was just too long. There is a limit at about 10,000 characters for what YT accepts, or that was it last time it bothered me.
Yep, once I had to divide a comment in 3 posts, before it stayed in YT. If, at that point, YT is still the right place to post it, becomes disputable...
...YT is probably trying to tell us that its comments are not a forum. ;)
What do you think this is, Twitter?! Keep your comments to 70% emojis and under 20 characters! :)
promox in my opinion more user friendly for operation customization, and installation...
mic low mids-upper bass is too boosted imo
What about comparing lxd also?
I don't use it so not likely.
¿Por que no los dos? I run XCP-ng & TrueNAS Core on my business’s systems (as per Tom’s suggestions), and Proxmox & TrueNAS Scale on my personal systems and I love it all. Super fun. I’ve tried ESXi a long time ago and didn’t care for it, but I didn’t hate it. I love using VMWare Workstation on desktop when the hypervisors aren’t available to me.
edit: Oh yeah, I’ve also used Hyper-V on WinServer2016 & Win10. Again, don’t hate it, it’s great for Win based OSes [super fast], but no easy webui to startup VMs from my tablet and I’ve distanced from Windows as much as I could. And, ‘I feel’ like bringing up VSphere is like bringing XenServer into the circle.
Man!! What about bhive!!!
Use what makes you happy
You never mention oVirt.
Because I don't use it and it's not very popular compared to XCP-NG or Proxmox
11:26 that's poor logic. Different designs are less secure? Because Zen and ESXi are have more in common, they're more secure? This reasoning doesn't make sense.
First
So you’re saying a bunch of wanna be IT professionals have huge opinions based entirely on their little home lab projects?
Many home lab people do work in IT but I prefer to be more concise and offer up more fact than opinion.
is this video literally just a summary of an article
There’s a lot of hype and misleading information when it comes to the whole xen Projets. The main issue is that people don’t like complicated stuff, even seasoned IT pros, first the xen server and then xen orchestra? You have to understand that in a world of hyperconverged where software is king no enterprise out there will ever even consider the xen project as a candidate.
I take your argument about xen being deployed in many large enterprise with a grain of salt. It is quite clear that Citrix doesn’t really care about the project. How about cooling down the hypes for a second. Many mission critical application run on virtualization systems. KVM and Vsphere have proven time and time again to be the most reliable in terms of products features, SLA and just simply trust. While I agree with you on pfsense reliability this xen train you are on won’t take off. Furthermore, you say they have 10 dedicated developers? Have you any idea how many developers work on KVM every day? Go figure
Well, I for one like complicated stuff. Mostly because it usually comes back at you with great reward. Also: Separating XCP-ng and XO is a huge positive in my opinion. I would never want to have it bundled together.
I am a hard working tech guy who delivers IT to businesses.
You compare one company using Xen with 10 developpers to the whole KVM project. That's where you are wrong, KVM and Xen are OpenSource project, as such there is a community working on them.
@@MR-vj8dn And the XCP-NG/XO duo is very close to ESXi/VCSA in terms of approach... So I don't get the argument being made here.
As for "complicated stuff", I'd say a bare-metal hypervisor like Xen Project or ESXi come with a lot *less* complexity than KVM, which basically bolts virtualization onto a full operating system. As was pointed out in the video the KVM codebase is around 50 times bigger... so doing "fancy stuff" might be easier in KVM as you have a full OS with all its features to lean on, but it also means more things that can break, or contain security issues. In the end, for most people it comes down to philosophy and preferences. If I say I'm an OpenBSD fan, it shouldn't take a genius to work out which of XCP-ng/XO and KVM/proxmox I lean towards for replacing my ageing ESXi/vSphere-based home lab.
@@pierredanel7771 What argument?