John Company: The Colossal Game of Colonialist Greed
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- čas přidán 27. 11. 2023
- In this nearly 50 minute monster, Tom is taking a thorough dive into John Company: Second Edition - a frightfully expansive game with lofty ambitions in both its mechanics and themes. Touching on some truly horrifying, very real history; this game pushes the limits of what can be comfortably represented on your kitchen table. For this reason, we’ve pulled out all the stops to comprehensively cover this beast of a box.
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RTFM's How To Play of John Company: • How to Play John Compa...
Dan Thurot's Review of John Company: spacebiff.com/2022/11/23/john...
NPI's Video Essay on Colonialism in Board Games: • Colonialism - The Boar...
William Dalrymple's 'The Anarchy: / 42972023
Shashi Tharoor's 'Inglorious Empire': / inglorious-empire
Molly House: www.backerkit.com/c/projects/...
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This is the review where Tom rightfully takes his place among the best to ever do it. A considered, literate and academic analysis of a complex and complicated game, delivered like a pro.
10000% agree!
No shade on Tom, he's been carrying the channel for a while now - highly recommend watching No Pun Included's video on Colonialism in board games, and their Pax Pamir review. I think you'll enjoy those as well.
@@TheCyberSpidey Yep, those are top tier.
Not bad for an intern.
I love Tom just being Tom, but here he shows that he is more than capable of rising to the occasion when the subject matter requires a more thoughtful and unambiguous approach. Also appreciate his references to the other professionals within the hobby.
I can't and don't want to speak for all Indians, but I will say that as an Indian I found this game much, much superior to almost every other game (of which there are way, way too many) with a colonialist theme. There are some games that I find simply too uncomfortable to play (Mombasa and Endeavor:Age of Sail are the examples that spring to mind), but I found John Company to be much more engaging. John Company does a few things right, and the first is being strongly historically grounded. It is the kind of game that actually teaches players about Indian history instead of just using it as set dressing, I do have my quibbles* but it's still really good.
However, what I consider the two strongest aspects of the game are something else. The first is that the game is very, very clear that you are the bad guys. You touch on that well in the video so I won't belabor the point, I can't add anything to your excellent analysis. The second thing I really like about this game, though, is how _alive_ India is here.
One of my biggest irritations with the way Asia and Africa are so often depicted in board games is how passive they are shown to be. All the complex politics and histories of these places are reduced to a flat map awaiting pieces to be placed on it. Oh, there might be some effort and cost to place those pieces but ultimately only the European powers the players are placed in the seats of have any agency, power, or hope of ultimate victory. But in John Company, India moves independently of the Company. Empires rise and conquer and fracture and fall even if the players do nothing. It is entirely possible for the Mughal Empire to hold together and stay strong through the 18th century while the Company takes no land in India. It's not likely - and it shouldn't be, given that it wasn't likely historically! - but it is possible. The game manages to emphasize that the Company is _one player_ in a complex, already existing political landscape - a _strong_ player that has the potential to conquer everything,** but still just one player of many.
That earns a lot of goodwill for me, despite the fact that this game represents the most traumatic period of my country's history. Indeed, it earns goodwill because it _does_ represent that period, _as_ the trauma that it was. Does it reduce that painful history to a game? Sure. But I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. Indeed, as you say in the video, I think the John Company expertly turns that into a part of its satire. I am glad this game exists, not least because it shines a spotlight onto a period of Indian history that is generally _known about_ but only in the most abstract, bloodless possible terms.
*The region named "Maratha" should be called "Orissa" and the region named "Bombay" should be called "Maratha". The way the Maratha empire is depicted in this game really annoys me. But, well, I am Marathi and care more about this than most.
** Indeed, if anything the game somewhat underestimates the structural advantages the British had, particularly in warfare. There is, for instance, no round by round bonus to military adventuring to represent the fact that while at the beginning of this time period Indian and European armies could fight on roughly equal footing by the end of it British armies (which where composed mostly of local troops mind, but British trained and equipped) were overwhelmingly superior on the battlefield.
I totally agree that games can often be insensitive with their use of colonization, but I had never been able to articulate how they often treat colonized places and people as ones without agency. Almost as if an unrendered area in a video game that is just held in stasis until the players come back. You did such a good job articulating this passive/active dynamic - I will certainly keep thinking about that. Thanks for sharing!
Just wanted to add something to your beautiful comment - I'm not trying to be facetious here or anything, but, isn't it disingenuous to ask "Is it OK to reduce all that story and pain into a game?" We don't generally ask that question about movies or books or a pieces of art. Reducing complex periods and events into small packages is incredibly common in all the mediums we use to communicate and create. Why should a boardgame not get to do that too? And also, for people who are unfamiliar with complex and dense periods, isn't a condensed version of something precisely the best gateway to get more familiar with it?
Yappachino over here
@@SinspaW In a year where Oppenheimer was a massive hit in theatres, no less. Granted, there are probably tons of people who will never watch Oppenheimer on moral grounds (and I would completely respect that position)
Perhaps other mediums have done a better job at presenting themselves as curators of history. Within this medium, John Company is a little bit of an outlier. Perhaps we need more developers like Cole who are willing to push the envelope while trying to treat the subject matter respectfully. And maybe we won't always get it right. But it makes a difference when the developer wants the player to learn and engage with the subject vs. the developer simply trying to entertain.
I, having some native American heritage don't really care, I think people are way too sensitive with this stuff. People try to be too politicallt correct. If someone wants a an offensive boardgame, then why does it matter? Just like if someone wants to be homosexual, why does it matter? Or to criticize someone who is homosexual. It's silly in my opinion. Just like the fact I feel the need to add that I have some native American heritage to not invalidate my opinion. It shouldn't matter, I can just have an opinion as me, not as me the native American. That doesn't define me, negatively or positively.
That turn example was so well done and made me understand why a game like this exists and why people enjoy it.
Yeah, the turn example is exactly what makes the game so engaging. There's really nothing else like it that I've played. The game also eliciting emotions due to the theme, as well as conversations about the theme also elevates the experience.
But for me it also shows why this game is so interesting. This game teaches you a little bit of what it felt like to make those decisions at the head of the EIC. Not perfectly, but what is? And it's special that they did that.
Kinda makes me wish for a VoC game to show the mindset of the Dutch elite back then.
@@fallingphoenix2341 the reference to Victoria 3 is great because what makes that line of games so great is that they do such a good job of modeling 19th century imperialism that you end up in a position where you will make the exact same choices those empires did. Like you'll get confronted with a choice to either let people die in a drought or do nothing, and you will do nothing because the other choice would make you look weak to the other empires who you are constantly at war with. And then you'll like actually look at the province and realized you just killed thousands.
Cole Wehrle has described his design process as focusing on a feeling or social dynamic he wants players to engage with and all the systems spring forth from supporting that thesis. John Company is arguing that the management of empire was done at the behest of venal, self-serving cowards enriching themselves under the protection of the law, and you get to experience *that* with your friends. It’s not didactic but it does want you to reckon with the system of incentives of the period and how that transfers onto players. What you take away from the argument is ultimately up to you. The real question is if the argument works or not and I believe John Company is operating in a space that only a game could. That makes it a very exciting experience for me. Like introducing someone to a horror or art film, it's best to let them know the subject matter up front and affirm their willingness to participate.
I think the issue with John Company, on that principle is that its warnings and general theme is entirely built on the idea of Cole's own conclusion. This isn't a "Oh hes biased that makes it bad" or whatever, but consider, anyone who READS the warning understands what Cole wants you to believe and whoever buys the game BOUGHT a game knowing "This is a game about being a bad person" and are playing it to simulate that. Which means essentially that you only take anything away from the argument (Indeed you only LISTEN to the argument) if you already decided to spend 130 dollars to agree with that. And personally I believe that inevitably influences player behavior and makes the result actually more tepid.
Like when you read say, Ordinary Men you see how people can be pressured and pushed into being truely evil, but the game cant really say much about evil when the slippery slope is actually a waterslide and the only thing you can do otherwise is push past all your friends in line and go home. You HAVE to slide it.
@@frohawkmaster Thank you for the reply! Couldn't this same argument be extended towards any satire however? The world is rife with examples of people who didn't understand works like Starship Troopers. I don't think Verhoeven having a specific argument to make or a viewer needing to pay $25 dollars for a blu-ray to access that point of view necessarily invalidates the work itself. I don't view the theme being "Cole's own conclusion" to be so damning. The only way to prove this is to operate in an environment where individuals interested in these kinds of historical arguments aren't already clued in from the beginning due to the parasocial nature of crowdfunding development. Hopefully we'll get there, and a critical consensus of games can grow.
I suppose I don't think its the game's responsibility to say anything of evil. That's up the players to navigate themselves, and I can say from experience that I've encountered a range of reactions from players navigating the "frictive relationships" the game invokes. Some have even started out as saboteurs in an act of rebellion from the outset, a deliberate breaking of the assumptions of the game. I've never seen that in a game, and it was an act invited by the other players at my table.
@@Elite942 I think the opposite may be true. I think the issue iwht John isn't that people can miss the point, its that it tries to combine emergent storytelling with deconstructism, but the stories ending is, in a sense, on the box. Starship troopers is very inorganic, its curated. But, at least if John Company is meant to showcase a sortof temptation to evil, that aspect is reduced by the predrawn conclusion. And that can be fine, I think I have friends who may enjoy this game but entirely unengage with the theme because I've seen them play the skesis from dark crystal with sadistic glee. There are people who go in and go out with a yucky feeling and can assure themselves they are a good person because they dont feel nearly as yucky in their day to day.
HOWEVER it cant portray a story like say, Falling Down because even the players who play saboteurs are operating under the idea that they are "The bad guy", they are rejecting that premise but they are aware of it. No ones SUPRISED how fall they fell, its on the box.
To quote a wise dessert: "The system needed monsters to work. So they paid men handsomely to be monsters."
SUSD: Get ready for some weird and wacky experimental videos!
Also SUSD: Here’s an hour of rigorous game analysis and criticism.
Ya’ll are doing some of the best work you have ever done and it’s a delight to see.
Also SUSD: "Oh and watch these rivals/content producers on this subject because they are also awesome!"
Stellar work from Tom here. He stepped away from his comfort zone of zany reviews and was right to do so. He gave the weighty subject matter the respect it deserves, and throughout this video showed himself to be a great reviewer, full-stop.
Dear Shut up & sit down, though quite late I want to congratulate you on hiring and developing Tom. He has done tremendous work - from hilarious tier lists, great jokes to videos belonging to the best of what the Board game reviewed scene has seen.
So again. Many thanks for unleashing the Brewster!
I agree❤️
I'd never play it but I'd love to watch a full game with Tom narrating like he explained a round.
Agreed
But what's the score?!
Man, what a smashing review. It felt nothing like 50 mins: I was enthralled by the game concept, history and ethics discussion parts one and all. *applause*
Love the video.
If someone asked me last night if there is anything I'd want for Christmas, Tom nerding out for 48mins about this game that I've been too afraid to try on my players, is exactly what I'd would say.
The sheer youthful endurance Tom must have to keep running around that castle every few phrases.
Youre talking about the man who runs to the economy zone almost every day
Hopefully he had a script and was able to deliver all the lines in one place, then go to the next place, then cut it together. I know I personally would be terrible at filming that way though.
I don't want to get too far into the sausage factory, but it's also possible he read the entire script at all locations, and made the choices about which bits to take from which location entirely in the editing bay.
Great review Tom! I have a "fun fact" about the opium trade depiction in this game, The game originally had references to the opium trade from India to China, with opium poppy icons, mentions in rules and so forth. But due to this game being printed and assembled in China, and Chinese censorship laws, all references to the opium trade had to be removed, since the government dosen't want references to this part of Chinese history in media. So Wehrlegig had to change the wording and iconography to generic "Chinese Exports"
That's wild, is that true? I can't really see the CCP actually enforcing this on foreign suppliers as they print books that discuss the opium wars there still.
War Room, a gigantic late-WW2 strategy game from the creator of Axis & Allies, ships with all Chinese flags represented by a period-incorrect red star on a yellow background. When you buy the game you can buy, for cost of shipping only, a sticker sheet with a bunch of KMT-style white lotus on blue field flags, which are of course the correct symbol for China as a nation in the early-to-mid 1940s. These stickers are made in the USA while the rest of the game is made in China. Okay we get it but what's really cooking my noodle is that Germany is represented by an Iron Cross, not a Swastika... and there's no swastika sticker sheet for people playing outside Germany (where depicting it is of course illegal). This then starts a whole "um but aksherly the Wehrmacht wasn't the Nazi party" discussion that ignores how a lot of the Chinese lads who helped Mao win his civil war were WW2 vets, and you never end up starting War Room which can take up to 40-50m a turn with full battle rules...
Almost an hour of Tom ? Yes please and thank you.
We’re eating good today
It's very gratifying to see Tom continue the channel's own history of treating the setting and themes of the games it reviews not as window dressing but as significant and serious parts of their reviews and critiques.
Games that let you play as historically monstrous people and entities and fully engage with this theme are particularly useful in a way non-interactive media can't be, because it allows you to know full well the context in which you are playing the game and yet so easily fall into mindset of the people it is about. It is a reminder that the people who commit these monstrous acts are also entirely human, not some separate class of being from ourselves; one we could fall into ourselves.
this is a great point should be up front in these conversations
This is why I dont understand ppl categorically rejecting this game
Like come on, how does history offend someone? It happened, all you can do with it is get to know it more and understand it better if it interests you.
History is not offensive its (mostly) factual. A game based on a devisive historical period should be a good way to learn about it and not a "disgusting collonial apolegetic" thing
@@kaades_ what media center on centers that subject in the collective consciousness. yes history is "just" what happened. but "what happened" is immense, so what we choose to focus on distorts the reality of the past. that's why it matters how things are presented today, what things are presented today.
@@oncedidactic I agree the way we depict history has and immense effect on the masses, but I think we should represent devisive topics more often, history is nounced. Its not good v. bad. Accurate (as much as possible) portrayal of history is one of the most important thing I belive.
But in my comment I just expressed my disbelief towards ppl who are offended by history. We shouldnt ignore a time period bc it makes us uncomfortable. We should learn about it and from it so we dont make the mistakes again
I feel like we must sometimes step into the shoes of those we historically consider "monsters" because we can easily forget how easy it could be to become one of them again.
I'm stealing that quote!
Who is “we” here though? It’s a nice thought until we consider 99.999% of us will never be in the position to recreate these horrors. Sociopathic world leaders and billionaires aren’t playing boardgames.
@@Zxykary
Not sure if you are getting the point. Of course we'll never personally be in a position to be despot rulers genociding millions, but we are often the people that enable others to do so. Least we forget.
@@Zxykary - Yeah, it feels like the moralistic trend of "heroes becoming the villain" is at best naïve, and at worst intentional propaganda. Yes, good people can easily do evil things when they fail to be empathetic and self-aware. But the true villains of the world are completely aware of the hyperbolic evil that they cause, and they are simply completely incapable of giving a damn.
Everyone talks about Anakin falling to the dark side. But nobody wants to talk about the fact that Palpatine orchestrated Anakin's entire fall, committed even worse atrocities than him, and didn't have some contrived origin story to even try to justify his actions.
@@Zxykary a company or Empire like that needs millions of moving wheels, each one a person like us
I'm glad that people are making games like this. There is really no better way to get hands on with history like this. Cards or events that are referenced can get looked up by those that are curious. Nothing we do can change the past, but learning about it can help us from making those same mistakes.
To forget the past is the make the same mistakes in the future.
Yeah and one of the benefits of games video, board, or otherwise, is that they can put you in the experience rather than just observing it. Games can let you play as a monster to see why people did terrible things, how they justified it, why they chose to do what they did... and then let you look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why do you do what you do? Or they can give a glimpse into the hardships and terrors people experienced not so that you can understand just how it felt but so that you have a concept of what it was like while knowing you thankfully never will fully understand.
This was just an absolute pleasure to watch. I have not played John Company (and my group bounced heavily off of Oath) but I adore Pax Pamir 2E and strongly agree with the closing sentiments WRT Wherligig and their place in the hobby/industry.
As a middle-aged guy with two kids, a busy life, and a social circle not particularly into games I'm often at a loss to try and discuss "why" I find this hobby so rewarding. There is no simple answer but a part of that answer is that games like John Company and Pax Pamir engage my brain with history and setting in a way that is simply impossible for a book, television show, film, or even museum visit. After a great session with a great, thoughtful, intentional piece like this I am both awakened spiritually and left thirsty for knowledge and context in a very unique way. It would appear based on the rabbit hole of colonial history Tom fell down I am not alone. My sincere thanks for all of your work and care on this.
P.S. I completely agree re: Dan Thurot. The best board game writing and commentary currently going. Cheers!
If game reviews could be nominated for Pulitzers, this would win hands down. Well done sir.
This is such a well-considered, thoughtful and nuanced approach to a difficult subject that does justice to the forbidding nature of its setting. When Tom first joined SU&SD I was impressed by the technical skill in the videos as well as his willingness to jump headfirst into the zany antics that make so many of these reviews so delightful, but this was the right way to approach this. Also, sick Pyre shirt.
Yet another fantastic video, I’m so glad Tom joined the team. More evidence if it was needed that SU&SD are the masters not just of board game reviews, but also of selecting the appropriate tone. Many of their videos are chaotic or silly in tone (and I love them for it), but when the subject matter is serious and important, they’re equally capable of matching that while being just as engaging. Thank you for being so informative and entertaining for so many years.
It is nice to hear that part when you say that "it is just a game, as it was just a game for those people". I always saw this same beauty in Twilight Struggle.
Wow, that was truly incredible. I know you may not have the time to work on such long form videos all the time, but I very much enjoy when content creates take a moment to really work on things like this and genuinely enjoy them. I am one of those weird people that love info dumps and lore installments so this was a treat for me to learn more about a subject I otherwise might never know about.
The best video on the channel? I meet it halfway, and I say YES. Thank you, Tom.
Ah so this is the massive project Tom's been referencing in podcasts....yep this is a review and a half for sure! Well done. Definitely a game I would never buy but I'd try it out once if someone was willing to bring it to my table :D
Wow. And here I thought I’d just be watching a background review to do my homework to. Added to the video essay playlist to recommend to others.
Cole Wehrle is the greatest living games designer. He pushes the boundaries of board games the art form more than anyone.
Check out Amabel Holland - she is arguably pushing those boundaries even further
@@brooksbarber4630 I’m not huge on train games.
@atheist_addict She does much more than train games. Take a look at This Guilty Land, The Vote, and Doubt is Our Product.
@@brooksbarber4630 but are they good games? Rainer Knizia would in my book still be the best game designer, since he just delivers so many good and some grest games
@@brooksbarber4630 checked the designer's games, those honestly do not seem to be epic games, rather messages first, games second.
Is this Video a Masterpiece? it's incredible how this video does the explanation of the board game itself and a review of it, while furthering the work that the game itself seems to be attempting to do in both raising awareness and challenging those who have been poorly educated about the subject matter, and care, to seek out ways to combat that ignorance.
And like the game, or the modern art in the cartoon, the art seems to very much so lie in part on how each and every one of us viewers reacts to it. I underline "in part" because the script, filming and editing in this video themselves are incredible works. Thank you all!
It's amazing that in 50 minutes of watching a review of a board game that I'll never play, you didn't waste a minute of my time. I love your videos Tom! Thank you for putting in so much time and thought to what you do! I think it's setting the standard for what a review should be in a great way, or at least I hope that it is. I was impressed by the "Oath" review and even more so with this.
I purchased John Company because of your twitter posts about it, and I love that the game asks you to think about it. It wasn't really till this game that I realized a lot of other games I was playing had the same colonial themes just obscured by mediocrity. I played a game of JoCo this past weekend and as my last action to gain some little bits of money I invaded a sovereign peoples for 2£. Then it turns out I had 3£ left over after retirements. I was a monster for money that I didnt even need. This game is amazing and the emergent storytelling fantastic. In the same game I had a chairman who lasted all 5 rounds only to have a scandal and get fired before they could finally retire and get a nice house. Brilliant and thanks for shining a light on this game for me Tom.
I just happened upon an amazing deal for this and Pax Pamir 2E on the Geek Market a few days ago and am feeling so fortunate I got ahead of this review dropping and the SUSD Effect... 🎉
Also, greatly appreciate all of your work Tom and the gang. Thank you for being who you all are. 🍐💦
This is some amazing insight, thank you
The historical discussion around this game is greatly appreciated and something I didn't consider when I first played it with my friends. Me an Australian, was introduced to this game by my Canadian friend and I played it with and continue to play it in England with other people who immigrated here
I think us all not being born in the UK can provide a unique lens for this game for us, but listening to how someone who was born here views this game and its themes really does provide a new interesting perspective
Thank you Tom
I think hearing this perspective from
The game looks like more than my gaming group would tackle, not due to the theme, but the complexity. That said, I watched every minute of this review and throughly enjoyed all of it. Thought provoking and entertaining. I love your work.
I love this game and have been following for a while Tom’s posts about playing it… I’d almost given up hope a review was coming.
So happy to watch this piece of criticism
Great review. I appreciate games that encourage thought and reflection about difficult subjects - and what's more difficult than the past and present behavior of humans? As an American, the game Freedom: The Underground Railroad brings up similar dilemmas about the ethics of exploring history through games. It's a game I love and appreciate, and I think like John Company it provides a powerful interaction with the setting in the space of the game. But it's also discomforting to see oppressed and enslaved people reduced to tokens.
This video helped me realize that my own education around the East Indian Trading Company (EITC) was deeply flawed.
I had an Indian coworker say to me “India would be just as powerful as any European country if Britain didn’t steal everything we had.” I thought “The EITC just got lucky and found a land that was happened to be in mid conflict, took treasure, and ran?” I sat at the dinner table and nodded, knowing he knew something I did not know. I took the miseducation as truth like many of my fellow US students. My history teacher was extremely wrong to describe the EITC as a happy accident for the British.
Thank you for making a video to help me complete the lesson my old coworker began.
Possibly the best susd review. Thank you for such a great analysis of a box with a lot in it, both mechanically and thematically.
i can tell how extensive the research and effort was to make this video, and you conveyed the game well. great video tom!
It is hard to comprehend how much joy I have from watching Tom's reviews.
They are honestly just such good content, and he has now rightfully earned his place as my favourite SU&SD board boy ✨
As a history graduate and someone with a keen interest in history (and board games) I couldn't explain the importance of games like this anywhere near as eloquently as Tom has here. Fantastic, monumental and important video. Thank you SUSD.
in regards to the discussion about the theming, I think there's also an effect where the work will become more off-putting if the theme is more well executed. When you see another game that half heartedly uses a wwii theme without being super connected to what you actually do, it's easy to mentally disassociate it from the real life history it's "portraying" and never even think about what it means to turn that history into play. But something like this that actually tries to explore the theme behind the game will ineviteably confront you with some pretty uncomfortable facts. So I think there's a paradox happening where the deeper engagement with the theme will lead to more people being turned off by it because they will be confronted by what it means to portray such a thing in a game. Not to say that there's no valid critiques of the game, but I think partly, the fact that it turned many people off, and that it prompts such a long discussion about these themes in games, is a mark of its quality in regards to how it handles the setting.
In fact they talk about this specific thing in the Golem review: czcams.com/video/xJApU3RRNhs/video.html.
I'm so blown away by this channel and people make games. like you used board game review to frame an incredible think piece. i love yall so much.
35:12 not for some reason, but because he was unable to find anything within the piece of abstract art. To him the image was nothing, it was not alive, thus he himself is not alive and becomes nothing.
There’s so much praise I want to heap on this review but, as other comments already cover a lot of those points, I just want to say two things, 1. Thank you for reminding me why I love games in the first place and 2. Just, BRAVO!
This review is a masterpiece. Elevates the entire hobby
for much of the formalized practice of history (the writing it down part), our tools for doing so have been largely narrative because those were the best mediums we had - painting, sculpture, oral traditions, theater, literature, etc - for making it relevant to the student in a form they can relate to; basically as a story, of a person or people that did XYZ. But that often underserves, or fails to play well with, a more 'modern' view of history as being the interactions of large socioeconomic systems, in which the peoples involved are under lots of influences and incentives to interact with those systems in different ways (often selfishly). I believe today games have become THE medium that makes this form of history relatable, accessible, HUMAN to people - because as players, WE experience those systems, those incentives, and the social/logical/emotional responses they engender. it's an abstraction, yes, much like a historical novel. but with games, by putting ourselves in the drivers seat, we get to understand those systems better from the inside out (how the rules incentivize us to act) in a similar way to how we understand a time or a place from inside the head of a protagonist, or by examining a specific, important event and the people involved. for a history of something like the EITC, a rat-king of political and financial operators playing with lives and swelling their accounts with reckless abandon, all being pressured and justified by everyone else in that system, a game is an ideal medium to explore this.
This video was so incredibly good that I started to get sad as I realised it was ending. Absolutely hands down the best board game content on the internet coming from you lately Tom. Keep it up I love your work more than I can describe.
Great video. Reminded me of Tim Rogers' style, whom I know Tom has said is one of his inspirations. I really liked the comparison to interpreting modern art - recognizing how the experience impacts/affects you is a key part of the experience, and without that cognition something is missed. Would be interesting to play the game, but its absolutely one that if I bought I would struggle to ever find people to play with!
Peak SU&SD video Here!
Really impressive how this one Made me wholeheartetly laugh but also confronted me with a deep and important Theme.
Thank you for your incredible Work!
This is extremely good,
and I hope everyone involved feels proud of it.
My god... three hours ago I was checking out Sidereal Conference on bgg after rewatching the SU&SD video, and then I saw John Company in a forum thread there, and then I thought "damn, if only this had a video".
This was a masterful analysis! The fact that you guys can extract this much culture and thought from boardgames is what puts you above the rest...
Tremendous video! Thank you for the hard work putting all of the research, explaining and questionable (but beautiful) editing choices together.
Also: As a German I experienced quite the same revulsion in my gaming group when introducing Undaunted. Never thought board games would become a self-reflection experience on a national heritage level. Can't wait what's out there next!
I'm German as well. My gaming group played John Company and we all liked it. We are all Germans or Norwegians, and were aware of what the historical background is, that we are the bad guys exploiting India and probably killing millions and took it as a really dark satire. Since there are no British in our group it probably didn't hit that close to home.
Though I had and still have problems with some games due to my German heritage. I.e. Race to Moscow is a game that I find interesting from the point that it's about the logistics of the military and less about the fighting, but I'm not touching it with a ten-foot pole. On the other hand, I recently started to play Undaunted Stalingrad, and yes, I'm playing the Germans. That was decided by chance though. I was hesitant at first and the person I'm playing with asked me beforehand if it really was ok for me to play it. With that one I think I'm able to look at the individual soldiers fate and that's the experience I'm trying to get from it, rather than simply playing it to win.
An amazing video for a great game.
I feel the need to point out that the point you make about the game being more controversial because you are British is an important one. When I played john company I primarily enjoyed it as a game and while I like to engage with history through this medium that was not on the front of my mind in that moment. Why? Because I'm German and my knowledge of this period and Empire in general dos not extend much above "really really fucked up". I don't know the specifics, all the atrocities and events are vague memories, if I have even heard of them at all.
Your personal context matters so much for your understanding of history. You mentioned Undaunted which was also my first thought because playing a faction in wargame based on nazi Germany is just fundamentally disgusting to me. The entire ww2 wargaming scene is just so strange from a german perspective. The amount of people who are happy to try and win the war as the nazis is uncomfortable.
In Germany if you play ww2 wargames game (like bolt action for example) you will get a lot of strange looks from people trying to figure out whether you are, the stupid kind or the nazi kind of weirdo.
On the other hand I have heard stories from wargamers in the US playing at conventions while wearing SS hats to fit with their army. That kind of shit would probably get you arrested around here.
The difference in how the local context shapes how you engage with specific parts of history is just insane.
I find what you “heard” to be very hard to believe or at the least that the hat was not recognizable as what it was. That person would be looked at as worse than weirdo and lucky he didn’t get his face punched in by just someone passing by. If it is true, then I guarantee everyone else uncomfortable and not up for a fight.
Whew I watched this over intervals of a few minutes (due to busyness) but I'm glad I did because this was excellent. I'm now intrigued to expand what I learned here and read The Anarachy, which for me is saying something because I don't normally read historical nonfiction.
Listening to the depth of analysis and articulation coming from the people at SUSD and their reviews to get points across while keeping things light and entertaining is truly a treat to experience.
Also, love the Pyre t-shirt, Tom. You don't see Supergiant Games' pre-Hades projects getting much love outside of a forum.
I have absolutley no problem playing this and exploring the colonial theme, I think the warning is fair and very clear so people have no grounds to complain if they play it and get triggered. History happened, it was often awful, but as long as the game handles that history fairly without glorifying or whitewashing it, then it can be an interesting experience. Thanks for the great review!
I agree, though I think their need to put a warning may turn potential players off. Consider that with everything that happened with the various Axis Powers, Axis and Allies has never felt it necessary to put such an overt warning so front and center.
The fact they may be an outlier could hurt because it might give the impression they're laying into those more dark aspects too hard.
Colonial history is still happening is Gaza right now.
@@elizabethlestrad5282But perhaps it should.
I think that's the point. If you refuse to face and engage with the tough parts of history, then you're not understanding the knife's edge that most of society constantly is on. Most evil isn't as black and white as we'd like it to be.
@@jokerES2 That's the beauty of JoCo 2e; it takes such an evil like colonialism and turns it into something seemingly 'ordinary', that can seem like work.
@@jokerES2i dont think these and most games of this type actually engage in that though.
You are "Black". In spirit island you are "White" and the foreigners you are mass killing are "Black". The morality is presupposed at the start and unconcerned with your actions after. The warning doesnt say that East India was morally complicated. It tells you that yes you are the bad guy. There are no Grey Guys.
To represent it is an act of violence. To not is an act of amnesia.
Well done creating this video, this was an endeavor akin to play John Company itself. How many months did a 48 min video take to write, record, and edit? 😲
Sometimes a video of any form extends beyond the content it represents and is just something interesting, thought-provoking, and worth knowing. I've loved Tom's wackiness so far, but this really, holistically cements him as an amazing, noteworthy member of susd. Thanks for all of the work, I don't plan on owning this but I had a ton of fun watching this whole video.
when a board game review is so well covered and discussed, it brings a tear to my eye? whats happening to me
Bravo young man. A nuanced response to a game inherently designed to force the player to think beyond the interplay of components.
This is the sort of high quality review that makes me a monthly supporter of SUSD.
This video is a geniune masterpiece. It's paced beautifully, it avoids a lot of potential repetition, its funny and engaging throughout and its backed with more credability that youtube usually bothers to ask for. Tom isnt just a new face on SUSD he might well now be one of the best Games journalists in the board game community.
This is an utterly fantastic review. Thank you for all the time and effort that clearly went into it. If you ever find yourself looking at a dusty box of john Company, I'd happily take you up for a game.
Speaking of colonialism, how is Quinn's bonsai from the Concordia review?
Great review. I'd never heard of the game and now I'm keen to play it. As a history teacher and lifelong history student I'm at least familiar with the setting, including the pro-imperialist stories, shades of Kipling etc but am prepared to admit that I should know more. Your review makes it sound as though this game will provide at least part of that education and perhaps therefore it is one that more of us should play, not as an act of penance but as an eye-opener. Can it still be fun? Yes, why not? In some ways this feels a little like the way miniature wargamers approach the genres they game in. We immerse ourselves in research of all kinds. We know what the soldiers we represent suffered in real life and we know the horrors that attend any conflict. Yet, we can still enjoy the game, not just as a game, but all the richer for it being an intellectual challenge and an act of remembrance.
Wow, Thank You Tom for such a well thought out video on this. It sounds like this game is a work of art much akin to how This War of Mine made people think and feel about the horrors of war. I really appreciate that this had to mean a lot of work on your part. TY
This is the type of game that might be a bit too heavy for myself, but I really appreciate this wonderful review that showcases it. What a fascinating game, I think it really does do the history well. It shows the human motivations of the imperialists at the time by allowing you to play as them. Instead of just saying "imperialist bad", you come to understand why they did the things they did, how greed influenced them, how power corrupted. Its a lesson in why those terrible decisions were made, which is a better lesson in understanding ourselves as humans and how to prevent it from happening again.
I genuinely think this is the best boardgame review I have ever seen and I have watched and read quite a few, an achievement in critical analysis for this artform.
I took me a while to understand your point about people being uncomfortable playing this, until you mentioned it hits different for brits at 42:30
Then it clicked, as a Belgian, I imagined what it would be like to play a game like this set in Congo....
Yeah, I'd be uncomfortable as well.
Just a reminder: before times of East India Company there were Muscovy Company, 1551, times of Ivan IV the Terrible, times of first massive terror on local nobles, while British outposts thrived there. Sounds familiar?
This is like the best board game review ever made. No hyperbole. Legit.
I started the section about why the theme matters with the "it's just a game" mentality.
However, the argument of "if you refuse to engage with the theme, you also ignore the designer's intended message" is a really good one, and completely changed my point of view when it comes to this game.
I feel like not too many games have such a critic or message, but I haven't done any effort to look at games like that in the first place.
Simply phenomenal! Tom really was shining through this video! Loved it!
Fantastic review. I'm someone for whom this theme is probably not something I'd like to play, but you taking the time to explore it and talk about what that means was really valuable to me. The atrocities of Empire remain far too untalked about, and I applaud a channel that has almost half a million subscribers taking an hour to talk about them.
I was never expecting SUSD to review one of my favorite recent games, but here we are.
An absolutely phenomenal video that captures both wonders and the complications of what it means to play John Company. Tom has outdone himself in this one.
Best Game of 2022 from my point of view.
Thank you for emphasizing this very unique game.
Fantastic review Tom great job. So much so that I purchased this game, including metal coins!
What I love most about this game is the challenge to yourself and views on history. How you might even play the opening Time period, where you mostly just "Trade" with India, and how just by "running a company" you slowly but surely descend into bickering and pulling in different directions to accomplish nothing but self greed. Making you move away from sensible decisions to becoming fait acomplis with the very things this game is teaching you about with sattire. It is brilliant in teaching you to reflect not just on history, but how the world still runs, if just under a different guise than Empire.
To me that is fun. Not the subject matter, but the teach, the history and the self reflection all wrapped within a "game". This feels more like literal art than merely a game. Not that I don't understand those who bounce off of it, but I say don't be afraid of it. The social experiment, the hard negotiaition, the realisation that you started off all naive and then willingly became the monster for a slightly better retirement, is quite unique in board gaming.
Absolutely superb video, I really appreciated the deep dive and the touching on the very particular British connection to this game. Also made me really happy to see the shoutouts to the Colonialism essay and to Dan Thurot! That essay is still one of the finest pieces of boardgame critique I've seen, and Dan's work occupies most of the rest.
Wow! I didn't expect this review. I'm not going to play the game, I don't have friends that would be interested, but I have bought a copy of The Anarchy as a result of Tom's comments. Excellent work Tom.
Came for the board game review,
Stayed for the reflection on the scars of colonialism.
Truly wonderful Tom. Your videos have such unique and interesting character. I wasn't expecting such a deep dive into this topic but it was well welcomed.
"Dice rolling into a coin tray? We got that B-Roll!"
For real though, the production values in this video are absolutely outstanding, especially the photography and music supervision.
Even though I don't have a group that I could play this with, I'm still very glad that games like this exist. What an achievement of design, and a great review.
Always a good time when a game that’s been collecting dust on your shelf for years gets a glowing review when you haven’t even punched it cause you didn’t have sleeves at the time to protect it from all the sessions you’ll be playing through.
Did I just watch a board game review or a documentary? Either way, I'm here for it. GREAT JOB
Wonderful video, well done Tom and team!
I fully agree that this board game is a piece of art. I bought it out of sheer admiration of Cole Wehrle's ambitious and unique design. It is a game that will rarely make it to the table but is still a treasured item of my games collection. I would say it is more a simulation than a semi-cooperative board game. You have to go into John company for the experience rather than play to win. Great and thoughtful review of it.
This is just a phenomenal video essay as much as it is a review, and I'm here for it. Great writing and great editing, something to aspire to.
This is a fantastic review and a fantastic video, thank you!
I LOVE the longer format of this video! I also think that this is a game (for most people) is to be experienced and not owned. This video already did a good job getting me to think about colonialism and other uncomfortable matters. I can only imagine the game would do that in spades as well
beautifully done, love to see all the new directions SUSD is pushing, can't wait for what's next from the team
Love that you guys took so much time and energy to deep dive into a game that so few will ever play. Well done, my good chaps.
This is a PhD. Everyone involved deserves a whole career based on this video involved
Thank you so much, Tom. A masterful and incredibly thoughtful review of what looks to be a fascinating game.
I have watched su&sd vids since their terramystica review (round that time) its always striking how much personality and charm goes into their vids. I still remember the post when tom was hired as an intern. And its awesome to see how much he grew. How he adapted little mannerism from quinns and matt. Also the sound and editing quality.... chefs kiss.
It would be a crime if this game isn´t in your top 100 list. Its the best wehrle game for sure and just a piece of art!
WOW. a masterclass. sensational Tom, sooooo so sooo sensational
This is Shut Up & Sit Down in its peak form.
Yesss the timing for tis could not be more perfect. I’m a huge fan of Cole Wehrle and have been looking to get into John Company for a little bit now.
I tried looking for a review of it from you guys in the past and was sad to see it one. So color me surprised when I saw this pop up in my feed serendipitously!
Stellar. I have followed this channel for a long time, and this has to be my new favorite video on this channel by a mile.