Exploring the Tension Between Calvinists and Arminians
Vložit
- čas přidán 17. 05. 2015
- In twelve minutes, John Piper pulls apart some of the tensions between Calvinism and Arminianism. Believing the whole Bible, with all of its varied pieces, is not a small or simple thing. A theology that makes sense of all of Scripture will require a great deal of mystery. Are we willing to admit that the Bible can say two things that seem to our minds to be contradictory and, in the end, not contradict each other after all? View the full resource at www.desiringgod.org/articles/w...
The best thing is to follow Jesus. He's above Calvin and Armin!
Mangboy Haokip Yes, but you’re missing the point. Are Calvin’s interpretations what Jesus preached or are Arminius’ interpretations what Jesus preached? You haven’t escaped the dilemma.
@@thetrollpatrol8799 Mangboy Haokip doesn't have a dilemma. The dilemma only exists for someone so narrow minded as to believe you must believe or follow only one or the other. It's obvious that at least one or both are wrong somewhere in their interpretation. This isn't an either-or dilemma. Why not throw in a few more interpretations to choose from... Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Charles Russell, Herbert W. Armstrong, Mary Baker Eddy, and Ellen G White? Didn't they interpret what Jesus said? Were they "holy men [or women] of God [who] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost"?
Mangboy Haokip understands what Paul said. When he wrote to the Corinthians, Paul was utterly disgusted at the Corinthians who claimed to be Paulinians:
"I thank God that I baptized none of you..."
Because they were behaving badly claiming to be following men rather than Christ..
"Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
And Paul WAS one of those men who spoke/wrote as he was moved by the Holy Spirit.
Do you need someone to interpret what Paul was saying, or can you interpret it yourself?
What did Jesus say?
John 3:14-19 (NASB) "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "
Here it is in Greek, if that helps you any...
John 3:14-19 (Wescott-Hort) 14 και καθως μωυσης υψωσεν τον οφιν εν τη ερημω ουτως υψωθηναι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου
15 ινα πας ο πιστευων εν αυτω εχη ζωην αιωνιον
16 ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
17 ου γαρ απεστειλεν ο θεος τον υιον εις τον κοσμον ινα κρινη τον κοσμον αλλ ινα σωθη ο κοσμος δι αυτου
18 ο πιστευων εις αυτον ου κρινεται ο μη πιστευων ηδη κεκριται οτι μη πεπιστευκεν εις το ονομα του μονογενους υιου του θεου
19 αυτη δε εστιν η κρισις οτι το φως εληλυθεν εις τον κοσμον και ηγαπησαν οι ανθρωποι μαλλον το σκοτος η το φως ην γαρ αυτων πονηρα τα εργα
I might need a translator to understand the Greek text, but we don't need an interpreter to tell us what God says in His word. We may not understand it all. We may be wrong on some points we don't understand, but God will reveal to us what we need to know to do His will in our lives.
I don't have a dilemma of choosing which of two dead theologians, who are not inspired Scripture writers, interprets what Jesus said. My dilemma is in knowing where, when and how to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; " Matthew 28:19-20a (KJV)
It doesn't say anything about whether they come by election or by their own free will. Nor does it say to debate whether someone interprets Jesus one way or another.
Amen!
Mangboy Haokip It's Arminius, not Armin.
Buck McDaniel Wise point made to this never-ending discussion! 👍
Understanding that God is in control of everything is the most liberating thing in this life, and this undeserved grace He gave drives me to worship Him, even in times when I don't feel like it!
The problem is when someone who calls himself a Christian looses his security of being saved when it’s does ...and don’t have assurance of salvation, that is where Satan invades thoughts like ... "what if I am not one of the chosen ones"? But when you have the assurance of being saved, then you feel liberated, I think that it is the first thing that a Christian should persecute, otherwise we can fall into a religiosity, ....and one does it to have that security ... some understand what do i say ? .... I think that security can be lost, but I also believe that if he is truly a Christian he will recover it.... THAT WHY ITS VERY IMPORTANT TO BELIEVE IN SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD ... END LET GOD BE GOD ... BUT FOR SOME IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO REMOVE THEIR HANDS FROM THE MASS, AND I THINK THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS
@@jessejimenez1793 That is why we need to read our Bible and remind ourselves of God's promises daily, especially that which pertains to salvation. The enemy may not bring us to hell anymore, but he can make our life hell on Earth by inserting doubts and unbelief, along with temptations and spiritual oppression.
@@janmartjanea1113
I thought that the bible was the one that spoke to us ... we cannot produce faith ... faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God ... Romans 10:17
17 So faith is by hearing, and hearing, by the word of God (here the word is "rema", meaning God speaks to our heart) and that is what I look for when I read the bible ...
God being in control is not the same as God having predestined everything before the foundations of the world. God didn’t predestine the number of thrusts the child rapists performs during his hideous and abominable transgression.
Yes !
"I am not gonna rise up over your word and tell this book what it has to mean "!! Praise God. We can handle the tough truths of the bible, we must submit ourselves to what it says, because it's God's living word, even though it's sometimes difficult. But we can do it brothers and sisters.
Calvinism is a cult.
Here is absolute Biblical proof that God does NOT cause or determine everything; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
I had grown up with an Arminian type mindset. I was taught with that style of theology as well, and I lived by what I thought was the Word, but I did not understand it, I saw God as cruel, I feared Him, even though everyone taught that He was love and whatnot, I couldn't see it. I was afraid of losing my "salvation". I was very strong on that we had "free will" whatever that meant; having control and being able to work towards many things and failing. The biggest hurdle was for me to submit to the Word, and acknowledging God's sovereignty, authority and will above mine, not by my will but by His will. Everything I had learned from scripture, everything I had read instantly made sense, everything came together from OT to NT. It was as if God had opened up my eyes towards His scripture that I did not understand before. My belief also seemed to align with Calvinist points as well at that point. How can I have faith and trust in God if I can lose my salvation? To have assurance that He has done all that needs to be done, that He is just and righteous and loving towards whom He chooses is enough for me, that I can rely on His word fully and completely. To believe in who God says He is, rather than trying to make God fit into the paradigm of what I thought God is like or should be.
Definition of sovereign
:one possessing or held to possess supreme political power 2:A Lord. So can you please share with me where in the Bible it says God micromanages our life, please.
@@californiahighdesertpreach2261 Ecclesiastes 7:14
@@pawlygon929 Ok what does that have to do with anything?
@@pawlygon929 This is why God is sovereign. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
New International Version
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. But You're Soteriology teaches God is self seeking, it is not self-seeking.
@@californiahighdesertpreach2261 God works out all things after the COUNSEL of HIS Will. Eph1:11
Truth be told, I never considered myself a Calvinist, still don't. I see myself as simply a Bible believing follower of Christ.
MegaZiglet you don't have to give yourself a title, but your theology absolutely does either fall toward the calvinist or arminian position. by necessity it has to. either God sovereignly chooses who is drawn to himself and thus who goes to heaven, or man determines it himself without the election of God.
pXianXo Hi. You just gave what is, in my experience, a Calvinist answer. Who says someone's theology absolutely does either fall... (your statement) To simply take Jesus at His word, the Bible as His words, with the revelation you have and obey him is perfection for the Christ - follower. Many truths that classic Calvinists share are indeed wonderful because they are biblical. I haven't found Piper's observation about Arminians who are disciples to hold true. In my experience, Calvinism attracts more of the classic Pharisee crowd because they can nail everything into a tidy box. Not that there aren't plenty to go around of both boxes and modern Pharisees. I thank God for all the Christians that God has foreseen and called... who have chosen to walk the narrow path and be saved.
Dallas McKinley. I myself do not identify myself as a Calvinist, though I agree with pXianXo, as I find myself Calvinist leaning. You are right in accepting both sides of it though. Most of what is considered the "New Calvinists" incorporate Free Will into their doctrine as well, though they don't deny the mystery of His Sovereignty. Not all Arminians are off base either though. One of my favorite preachers is considered Arminian, Leonard Ravenhill. There must be grace in the body, room for discussion, room for learning, all in accordance though with Scripture of course. In the end, I'm just happy that I'm saved ;)
+Dallas McKinley well put
The wind blow wherever it wishes
It seems to me that the Truth is somewhere in the middle. Between both thieves on the cross :)
The General,
You are right, because both are partly right but not totally right.....
The Arminians don't believe that the Elect were chosen before the foundation
of the world to be saved.... But the Elect were definitely chosen before the
foundation of the world, backed up by many bible verses.....
While the Calvinists do not know that God has chosen
His own True Children(the Elect) to be saved.....
Calvinist believes that God picked anyone that He wants to be saved because
God is Sovereign, So God also picked others to suffer eternally in hell
before they were born for His glory.... This is an evil doctrine....
@@52RGD Hello friend. The position that best suits my understanding is that God shows His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, He died for us. This news is so wonderful and full of grace that simple faith in the gospel and repentance from our sins is enough. i would say however, that God cannot and will not arbitrarily choose anybody to be His child if that child resists and deny's His love. Human beings have the ability to resist God's grace and this is where Calvinists have got it wrong I believe. God bless you sir :)
@@Truth537,
God bless you too General....
@@52RGD why God creates people to put them in hell no one has asked God to create them
NICE! Wow
Came for the calvanist discussion, left with the most emotional description of Yaweh Ive heard in a while - ballast. Wow. What a fantastic descriptor. Our God is great and he is able. This guy is so humble. Never want to try to rise above His word just to win a debate. Great message!!!!
He is a wolf don't believe him
Big TX - Amen!
@@abisamraj4408 There you go again. All of the hate comes from the "free will, I deserve some credit for my salvation" side of the argument.
Calvinism and Arminianism are both full of mystery. In fact, I am convinced that the truth is in a mysterious blending of the two. The idea that Arminianism has no mystery to hold is incorrect. Both theologies wrestle with mystery.
We have to hold to the mystery of a God who says "the Pharisees rejected the purpose of God for themselves" and also says "none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." We wrestle with the mystery of a God that warns "harden not your hearts" and a God who says "I hardened their hearts."
The coming down in one camp or another is a matter of WHICH mystery you wish to wrestle with: The Sincerity of God in his statements of (and warnings about) human freedom, or the Severity of God in his statements of determination and soverignty.
I absolutely love John Piper. But there are plenty of Arminians out there who are also thoroughly "Bible" people.
Darrell Stetler II There is no mystery on judicial hardening. There is an overwhelming amount of good explanations to find on the internet.
i agree that the truth is in between both of those, and i think Molinism is a good middle ground where the truth may lie. it affirms God's sovereignty and predestination while also affirming libertarian free will. there are several issues with Calvinism, though probably the most problematic verse for them is 2 Peter 3:9, that God wishes that no one perish but everyone to find room for repentance. say we drop all theologies for a moment and ask the question, what is stopping God from saving everyone? granted God wants everyone to be saved, and the fact that not everyone is saved, what's stopping God from doing what he wants to do? the only thing i can conceive is that we don't freely choose God, and he respects our free will not to choose him. the only answer I've received from Calvinists for this verse is that it doesn't mean literally everyone... but i see no reason not to take this verse at face value. it is consistent with God's love and it doesn't seem to be using complicated theology here. it seems to me the Calvinist is using an ad hoc dismissal to save his theology in light of scripture that seems contrary to it.
Could not agree more!
chipan9191, keep in mind that 2 Peter is addressed to the beloved. Context is important, and when he says any and all, it is within this context. He is patient with you, not willing that any (of the beloved) should perish. When free willers quote this text to support free will, they’re misquoting it. It’s not speaking of the entire world of humans. This is another example of bringing one’s theology and philosophy to the Bible.
God is outside of time, but it's clear both theories are the product of mindsets that are linear with respect to time.
Not every Christian is a Calvinist or Arminian.
Arminian*
There are those who have an apostle, his name is Paul and follow him, 1st Timothy 1:16 Romans 11 chapter verse 13.
For shame! You mean they can't put you in a box and offer canned, zero thought talking points based on a label they give you? Sounds fishy to me. Lol
I’ve tried and tried not to be a Calvinist …. I finally gave in to the truth
work like an arminian, sleep like a calvinist
If God might choose to not allow me to accept Christ, that is not elect me, and there's nothing I can do about it. Then I have nothing to look forward to but hell. This removes any hope of assurance. Because if my faith fails, God's predetermined that....I won't be sleeping tight
That's not how you should think about it. Do you believe in Christ as Lord and Savior? if you do then that is sign that you're one of the elect. You then need to test yourself and make your calling and election sure by devoting yourself to godly living. Read this article, thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/40577
@@jimh1741 I don't think that accepting the gospel and wanting to be saved, but not being part of the elect and therefore not being able to, is possible from a Calvinist perspective. According to Calvinism (I think), if you're not chosen then you wouldn't have the desire to be saved, because God wouldn't have worked in you to bring about that desire.
That is correct.
dym, well said
If you look at church history, God has blessed and used both Calvinist and Arminian believers. John Wesley and William and Catherine Booth were Arminians used greatly of God. I don't know where Charles Finney fits in but he was not a Calvinist. Some of the finest Christian denominations today fit into the Arminian camp, the Assemblies of God, the Church of the Nazarene, the Four Square Gospel and the Free Methodists. In heaven after the Lord returns, there will be no Calvinists or Arminians, only believers, children of God. If John Calvin were alive today, he would not want people using his name like we do.
We need to see the big picture.
Four square is awful
Amen!
@@codymarkley8372 No, no it is NOT. What IS awful is for an alleged believer, yourself, accusing an entire denomination as being awful. Do you even know a single member of the Foursquare Church? It doesn't matter if you do or don't, as this is a rhetorical question.
I, however, personally know Dr. Misael Argeñal, the pastor of the largest Foursquare Church on Earth, and they carry out a fantastic ministry demonstrating who God really is, in word and in deed.
Did John Calvin not deliver up his best friend to be burned to death on the stake for writing on the margin of the bible 'not infant baptism' and not the trinity' ? Did John Calvin have many people burned for having a different opinion to his?
listening to a debate between a Calvinist and an Open Theist, I loved the scripture of both sides. I grew up in Armenian teaching and was never secure in my assurance of salvation. Met and married a girl who was raised in eternal security. I struggled with that teaching but because it was anchored in God's promise and not my job performance I was anchored in God's Word, I had a security I'd never had so that now I can evangelize!
The concept of eternal security of the believer does not belong exclusively to Calvinism. So embracing Calvinism gave you peace of mind huh? How so? By teaching you that God is a sadist who created most human beings for no other reason but to burn so He can listen to their screams of agony throughout eternity? When you cut through all the Calvinist word salad, that's exactly what they believe. Calvinism claims to honor God but does anything but. How do you know for sure that you're elect?
AMEN.......!!!
Than you for your honesty and your willingness to live in the tension.
Before I ever heard of John Calvin, I was a Bible reader. As I learned of early reformers, I realized Calvin taught what I learned from Bible reading. I will never fully understand all of the Bible, but little by little, as the years go by, I understand more & more. I look forward to the day when I can meet Him face to face and & so many mysteries will be revealed.
Read more.
Thank you for this. I have been struggling with this and have watched many videos on this. You explained it so clearly. Thank you!
I am NOT a Calvanist, but I greatly respect many of my Calvanist brothers & sisters. I pray for the divine revelation of God's Spirit daily!
Tony Parry . Calvinist , not calvanist:)
Because God is sovereign He could have created the angels as supernatural robots who always follow His exact instructions.
However, is that what God did? Or, did God give Satan the free-will to rebel against Him? Did the same thing happen with Adam in the garden?
What has come to be known as "Calvinism" came our of Augustine's effort to explain how infants could become the "elect" through water baptism. Because the infant had not come to faith, it must be based on the will of another. It could have nothing to do with the will of the child. We still have those attempting to make Augustine's doctrine work by denying all free-will, and foreknowledge.
Watch the CZcams video " Was Augustine the first to introduce "Calvinism" into the Church?" by Dr. Ken Wilson, on Leighton Flowers channel.
Does regeneration come before faith in Ephesians 1:13?
Does God command all to "repent", and then He prevents some from doing so?
Based on the book "The Trail of Blood" by J.M. Carroll, the first Baptists were never "Reformed".
During 1689 the London Baptists took the Westminster Confession and attempted to correct the errors of infant baptism. However, they left other errors in the document. What we have now is Presbyterians who have abandoned infant baptism, but now call themselves "Reformed Baptists".
.
@@SpotterVideo fascinating!! I knew that Catholics removed Acts 8.37 from their bibles because it says if you believe with all your heart then you can be saved, and babies can't "believe" anything. So they took it out in support of their heretical practice.
But i didn't think of their principles influencing calvinism. Makes a lot of sense.
So very glad I became saved, the Holy Spirit dwells within me and I know with certainty that I truly belong to God.
The gospel was purposely Made Simple enough for a child to understand so that all may come to know God, leave it to mankind to complicate matters needlessly. God matters, religion doesn't
busybody1 Amen. Religion is doing, Salvation is done.
YOU ARE 100 PERCENT CORRECT!!!!!!!!! busybody1 you are very wise!!
If you are saved, what is saved? Listen to this: “truegospel.com/salvationvd.html”.
@@gaylebublitz4237 If you are saved, what is saved? Listen to this: “truegospel.com/salvationvd.html”.
Nice seeing John again. It’s been a while 🙏🏼
I love Pastor John! God bless you❤
I haven't been a Christian long but I find this Arminian/Calvinism debate absolutely fascinating. I really don't know where I am on this yet.
sometimes I lean toward Calvinism, other times, I would have to agree with an Arminian point.
I would disagree that Arminian teaching is based on philosophy as I feel both doctrines are scripturally supported.
Right now I'm thinking both Calvinism and Arminianism is right....and wrong.
+Jason Mahurin Hi Jason, I would like to recommend to you 2 sermons here on youtube, both with the title "For whom did Christ die?" One by John Macarthur, and one by Angus Stewart. Once you see the Biblical answer to this question, then everything else false into place, and error is exposed. Also, search "4345818" and "4345819" in youtube for some great sermons to help your growth.. I wish I learned these truths early in my Christian life.
+classicjukebox Thanks for the advice. It does seem clear that the Calvinist camp does lay claim to some of the best Preachers/Bible teachers. I have much respect for John MacArthur and spend many hours listening to his messages via the Grace to You app. There are many others like Piper, Phil Johnson, Paul Washer and the teachings and apologetics of Dr James White to name a few.
I've been slow to accept all the points of Calvinism for a couple reasons:
- I dont know how important it is to rush into accepting or rejecting it. I think everyone would agree that Calvinism doesnt save anyone and I don't want to be off on Doctrine. That said, I continue listening to the messages on it and I watch the debates.
-Secondly, I'm still not sure that Calvinism is 100% correct but I do admit that it could be my understanding that is off on this matter.
I'm sure that it will all "click" at some point if it is for me to grasp. I didn't even know what Calvism was until this year and at first I thought it was nonsense but now I see it differently. I will keep searching and receiving messages with all readiness but I must search the scriptures to see if these things are so. (a leason taught to us by the Bereans)
Jason Mahurin Hi Jason. I encourage you to think more deeply about this, and the importance of this matter. You are dealing with 2 different gospels! Yes....these are 2 different gospels that oppose eachother at every point and particular.
Think about it...if your son gave his life to save some people, and you sent your son and knew exactly what you had sent your son to do, and he fulfilled your mission perfectly before he died, and then you read in the paper a completely false story about your son's mission and death making him out to have tried to save a large number of people, but only succeeded with some, I think steam would be coming out of your ears for his honor---don't you think? Do you think God is a little jealous about who HIs Son died for? Is it negotiable? Is the Bible not clear?
Paul, by the Spirit of God said that if anyone comes preaching ANY other gospel, let him be accursed from Christ. He said it twice.
Be sure...regardless of which one of these gospels are true, they are surely different gospels. different Christs and different spirits.
We live in a day where with every teacher you hear, you must do your own Bible study. Piper has an aberrant view of the atonement. See his interview segment with Rick Warren on the extent of the atonement---he states it there.
Also, John Macarthur is both a cessationist and a dispensationalist (featuring the pre trib rapture)...but his sermon "for whom did Christ die?" is right on.
Doctrine is vitally important. "Calvinism" is a misnomer. This is: The Biblical view of salvation vs the Arminianism heresy.
Any honest reading of Scripture and complete study will bring it forth. Any "ism" (being "of" someone) is condemned in Scripture.
John Calvin really has nothing to do with this.
In conclusion, I recommend to you the Scourby Bible app if you own an iPhone, ipad, or Itouch. It is an amazing tool, and will help to immerse your mind in Scripture. You can see samples of it here on youtube.
+classicjukebox I didn't mean to imply that doctrine isnt important but what is equally important is that you have correct doctrine. I recognize that I have much to learn as a Christian and I trust that the same God that brought me this far from the filth that was my life will indeed lead me into sanctification and direct me in truth.
I do not believe that we are talking two different gospels.
I see Calvinist and Arminians agree on the essentials of salvation: by Grace alone, with faith alone, in Christ alone. They agree on the Deity of Christ, on Atonement through Christ by His sacrifice on the cross. They tend to have the same Baptism practices and the same communion. I see no reason to call this two different gospels just because one believes he responded to the prompting of the Holy Spirit's conviction and one believes that he was predestined to come to faith as long as they both come to faith and repentance.
I have not ruled out Calvinism because it answers a lot of questions and explains my personal conversion but I do understand the arguments.
Like John MacArthur, I am a cessationist and on this I'm quite firm but I do believe that most continuationists are sincere however a lot of the leaders of the Charismatic movement are heretics.
I guess all we can do is keep in prayer and study and continue to learn and grow because the world is full of people that are sure that they have it all figured out. we would be wise to realize that we all have to continually seek truth.
Jason Mahurin Jason, if you look closer, the Arminians do NOT believe in salvation by grace alone. For them, grace can only make salvation "available". For them it is grace PLUS my self initiated faith and will that brings salvation.
The Arminians deny the atonement of Christ also. They believe that Christ's death atones for NOBOBY without my self initiated faith.
They redefine words.
You can ask a Mormon, and he will parrot all kinds of things...but they redefine those words like grace, atonement, God, and Christ.
The Word of God says that the Spirit of God leads His elect people into all truth.
God will deal with each of us individually on these matters. If we are not truly His, we will always reject the truth and embrace error.
About being firm on cessationism...for me, I find it amazing that God does not speak anymore. Everything now is human analysis?
Demons cannot be cast out anymore? The Spirit of God fills the believer, but cannot speak? What about the 2 prophets in the Book of Revelation?
I am not Calvinist or Arminian, but I love this man of God.
even if you do not identify yourself with any position, whether you like it or not, you fall into some position whether it is Arminianism or Calvinist ...
Watch Dr.Leighton Flowers
@@myraride9563 Thanks.
@@myraride9563 In the broader sense, Leighton Flowers (provisionist) is an Arminian in that he emphasizes and seeks to preserve man's free will.
Does anyone know in what context he is speaking, or in what setting/who he is speaking to? His demeanor is so different than I've seen in so many teaching videos.
In what context John Piper is speaking? In what part?
Perfectly said, that is where we should stand, the weightier matters! Serving God and not struggling to defend one's denomination thru philosophical wars.
Seminary seems to confuse many.
Maybe true in some sense but seminaries brought about much more clarity on many things. If not for seminaries, I cannot imagine what our belief and doctrines will be.
pizmen24 I have met many who walked away from the faith. Saying they were the reason. I don’t know. Maybe they never believed in the first place.
Yes maybe. We do not have faith based on what people say/doctrines. We got to asked for His Grace and mercy and seek the truth for ourselves. If someone is turn away from faith by somebody's action or words, my guess is he did not have faith at all in the first place.
pizmen24 Amen.
Because many run without bring called.
Recent scientific discoveries in quantum theory is showing us that the universe is simultaneously predetermined yet uncertain at the same time, as per Heisenberg's Uncertainty principal. God does not operate on our concept of time. Eternity past, present and future are all right there with God as he is omnipresent in not just space but also time. We have such a masterful God that he planned it with sovereignty while still allowing us free will at the same time. We will not be able to understand these things until we are at home with our creator. For now it is better to focus on loving one another as Jesus commanded us.
Hi, I don't think that we have free will. What do we have is "ability" to take decisions. Only God has free will because His decisions do not depend on feelings or because someone else is telling Him do it. We as human we take decisions because of feelings and because of God or Satan as Paul says "I am slave of the Lord". So we say free because we want to justify our mistake. I Belive that God created us Good as the bible says but not perfect. Be blessed😉
Yuri Francisco can you be in love with your spouse if you don’t have a choice in the matter? What if she programmed your brain to love her? Would that be true love?
God gives us free will because he wants us to choose relationship with him. Otherwise it's not true love and we are all just robots.
However, every decision we make is predetermined because God is outside of time so He already sees the decisions we make before we make them.
It is part of his nature to disrupt dichotomy norms.
He is fully man AND fully God
He God in 3 distinct persons
He is love AND truth
He allows us to have free will AND be sovereign at the same time
Don’t put a limitless God in a box by claiming Calvinism or Arminianism is the way. He can allow both to be true because he is God.
@@caseythornton195 I do agree that we have the choise to choose we have choice. For example; Do you love God because He loved you first the decision that you take to love Him is because He loved you first. What I am trying to say is every decision we made there is something behind but of course we can take decision but I don't say "free will". Adam and Eve they sinned because of the influence even Apostle Paul says "the good that I want to do I can not because of my flesh the power of sin, but also there is the Power of the Holy Spirit who guide us in all true. @Casey Thorntom I love my wife because I decided to but if she decided to leave me still I love her with same love (husband and wife) forever? What I am trying to say is we take decisions based on some good influence or bad influence Devil or God both of them want to influence our lives, of course God will never force us but we decide because of Him.
@@caseythornton195In my opinion "Choice" and "Free will" I think they are two different things. God bless you and hope to see in this live or even better in Heaven.
Well said.
This is a very interesting video, which has got me thinking about a number of issues with Arminianism.....and Calvinism and how we interpret the Bible. The problem remains the same for both sides (or any side not already mentioned here, e.g. Molonism, Lutherism etc.)
Piper mentions that we should take the literal meaning of each sentence and not try to 'read into it' by making it fit around a philosphical framework based on time, culture etc. That is a good approach to take, except that we would still need to rely upon the numerous human and sinful translators of the particular Bible we study who might too have interpreted the original scriptures in a way that suits their own philosphical leanings? Isn't that why the NIV has been discredited, the NASB more widely trusted, the Passion Translation totally trashed? Isn't that why some believers refuse to read anything other than the KJV?
Having said that, I can certainly see that to read a bible passage and then understand it to fit around a certain perspective already pre-determined by a theological systematic is equally dangerous. That's because we are effectively relying upon man's philosophical underpinnings to guide our understanding, and not the Holy Spirit. It is also an open wide door to manipulation and exploitation to shape a church to fit the preferences of leaders who formulate or adopt a certain theological perspective. We end up worshipping the leaders/founders not God - no matter how many times the Bible is read. Hasn't Calvin done the same thing, though? The Institute of the Christian Religion is man made interpretation of text, the Reformed Movement itself has many philosophical leanings used to formulate its understanding of The Bible, not just reliant upon The Bible (Craig-Lane). TULIP wasn't Calvin-made. So it is unwise to see Calvinists as being Bible purists who understand God's character and what is right and wrong as purely coming out of The Bible.
Basically, both sides suffer the same problem. Ultimately, I think that believers tend to veer toward an approach that best represents their own personality profile and their own way of thinking -especially as a new Christian, newly converted and not mature. Arminians are likely to be left leaning and creative whereas Calvinists are likely to be right leaning/conservative and literal. Arminians stress 'walking with the Lord' Calvinists 'obey the Lord'. Ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit that leads the way for the true believer, not the personality profile of the believer. We are meant to follow Christ, which implies move forward but stay behind Jesus. He leads, we follow; he knows, we don't; he is perfect; we are not. That too implies that Calvinists have mainly got it right, Arminians wrong. But have they? Theymake out God is a monster creator of all that is evil - at worst - he is sovereign - at best. Arminians make out God is a loving, good creator fighting Satan's evil - at best; but they feel that their free will gives them license to 'make up Jesus' to fit their own personal preferences - at worst. Both has good and bad tendencies toward over permissiveness and over legalism that can lead to error and, at worse, outright heresy resulting in Christ's bride become less of a church, more like a social club or a cult with some Bible thrown in to make it look legitimate.
Both are good if used wisely, both are bad if used unwisely. But should we rely upon man or not whether Calvinist or Arminian? I don't think so. God talks about the foolishness of following man's wisdom - no matter how clever, intellectual they are. So where does that leave any of us?
Relying upon Jesus, that's where!!
If you are in an Arminian Church or a Calvinist one, the Holy Spirit will guide you - a sinful, incompletely regenerate redeemed Christian - into the truth to solve those mysteries that Biblical inconsistencies all so often give rise to, resulting in many of us wresting with the truth in despair and ultimately forcing any one of his sheep in the true bride of Christ to cry out 'Abba Father' to ask God to lead the way. I have often wrestled with the confusing text around regeneration/redemption and whether we should still follow the law (but in Christ) or just accept that we are saved and not worry about sinning (there is none righteous, not one). Lots of Christians do that. We are left as confused as ever. Calling confusion mystery doesn't make our path any easier, but it does force us to trust, believe and at least repent of those sins we are aware of in the hope that the others we aren't aware of - and there are many - will be forgiven along the way.
That's the point of faith: we believe, trust and hope. We don't 'work out', philosophise to draw firm conclusions, or know for sure which theology fits best. I expect none of them are an exact fit to the absolute truth that solves those mysteries of God that Piper expressed in this video. Truth is, God is so sovereign that man's intellect can never be high enough to de-mystify the Bible, but God is also so sovereign that he wants believers to choose to love him. Arminans and Calvinists can't agree on both of those statements; it is either one or the other.
So both sides suffer the same fate. For Calvinists and Arminians - it involves a perfect God leading imperfect sinners who are trying to lead the Christian life. Whether we choose or are effectually called to Christ is neither here nor there, nor does it matter whehter we believe we walk with the Lord or obey him. Ultimately, that tension between our old natures and our new creation will cause us confusion and all that Calvinism and Arminiasm does is to throw light on how best to resolve that tension, not to show us who is right and who is wrong in how texts are interpreted.
Piper you’re my favorite Calvinist 😂seriously. You humble and not arrogant and I appreciate this.
I love the man’s passion. To assume Armenian’s have “no ballast” would be a mistake - they do. God’s care, love, mercy and power rise far above doctrinal issues.
I used to see the division in the Body of Christ over this issue as funny. Now I see it as a tragedy that Satan exploits.
AND John Piper - at least in this video - doesn't need to yell (or scream) at his audience for them to know he is passionate.
This discussion isn't about being from Armenia.
I have decided to follow Jesus and there is nothing any calvinist can do or say to change that reality. Calvinism is heresy. Calvinists are all deceived.
you follow yourself liar
YOU decided YOU follow hahahahahhahaa
@@uncasunga1800 Hey, Mick... Have you considered why it is you seem to find it hilarious to call another brother deceived? Oh yeah. That is something to bust a gut over. But that is what Love is to you people because your doctrine cannot even recognize Love and Compassion as human attributes and when contributed to your view of The Lord these things have no knowable meaning.
Who is the author of confusion?
anyone know who the philosopher was that he spoke of?
I think this happened when you spoke out on 9/11 and I watched you as a kid, you offended me and I was super obedient.
Yes, He was at my home church -Christ Community Church ....great series.
Roman Lopez Jr. You-all were very lucky :)
Richard Alan Eccleston I don't believe in luck I believe in GOD'S providence.
Roman Lopez Jr. Yes you're absolutely correct... and thanks for the valuable reminder :) For this clip i couldn't follow the technical talk at the front end too well. But as for the last half...the amazingly genuine plain speaking... wow, this is one clip i'll never forget ever
Richard Alan Eccleston Amen.
Richard Alan Eccleston will call now please.
It's a silly argument. The Bible teaches both free will and God's sovereignty.
It teaches free will in the sense of this: once you have been born again, you can then choose to obey god (by His grace) or disobey Him. Unbelievers can't do anything but disobey God. Nobody but God truly has free will.
I believe our free will is sometimes superseded by his. His will is for my freedom to will
In other words, according to Calvinists, God does choose to create people in the womb but then chooses and decides to not allow them to repent but blocks them from being able to, and then intentionally and deliberately sends them to eternal suffering and torment in hell without any chance or hope of salvation. How loving and encouraging that is.
Bob Free They earn damnation by their willful rebellion all on their own, and He is wholly just and holy in not choosing to save them.
NO your wrong,How can it be willful if God knew mankind -the jewel of his creation is to be punished for something they had NO CONTROL of according to a calvanists world view.And so why could not God send iirresistble Grace to ALL and SAVE all. calvin said God could make a devil into a saint. This question Is the stumbling block an the main reason im not a calvanist.YOU misread scripture. All thru the bible God Grieves for sinful mankind but says Turn to me so that you might have life.You were NOT willing to come to me.MANY did including Pharsees -read it in johns Gospel God does not force anyone against there WILL.which btw many hyper calvanists say mans will is not free. Yet God set a Tree to Test mans choice,otherwise why do that!! Why would God grieve if He from the womb sends most or many to hell. makes no sense.
Who was the philosopher?
who was the Christian philosopher he was referring to around 3:56?
Both of the views of Arminianism and Calvinism make their claims a major point of belief, but the arguments themselves are asking the wrong questions. Both the complete Sovereignty of God over all things, and the personal responsibility for our own actions as we exercise our choices are correctly exegeted from many Biblical passages. Both sides can cherry pick passages (and I think Mr Piper does it, though he blames the "other side" of doing it... and they do it too) and force them to dominate the other passages that supposedly say something different. God's Word does not contradict itself, so to be exegetically correct we must find the context where the truth can come forth and there is mystery in the context where both are true, and human "free will" (limited in scope)... granted by God... never does challenge God's Sovereignty. It is not a "philosophy" as Mr Piper notes. It is exegeted from many scriptures.. How can a man who lives 60-100 years challenge God's Sovereignty? We cannot. It is the wrong question to pit these ideas against each other, so we spend lots of effort finding answers to the wrong questions. But we are fully responsible for our own personal destiny and God is also fully responsible for our destiny as He tests our heart and makes His choice ("before" the foundation of the world if we humans can even understand that!? - a mystery). He is outside of time as we know it, and the Book of Life is being written even as it is in final form. But... Are we "fit" for eternity due to how we have lived out our lives? We obey (or not) and He decides where our heart is. Are we living love out? We decide even as we live in His grace and Spirit in His power. A better set of questions for us involve introspection and obedience. Are we doing his will? Are we loving God with our full heart, mind, strength, soul? Are we loving others as Christ loved us, in reality? Real love from a truthful belief does real deeds that we will be judged by, and if we are doing them for God's glory, He sees it and is pleased. Are we "exegeting" Isaiah 58 in our life in spirit and in truth and real-life obedience, for God's glory? Are we heeding the message of the letters to the 7 churches of Revelation, so that our name will not be erased from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5). Those are much more profound questions for eternal life for us than pitting and arguing God's Sovereignty against the personal responsibility of human-choice. He is absolutely Sovereign, and He absolutely decides our destiny in the end, and we too play a part in responding to His grace! It has seemed to me that this argument and others create schism in the church and provide fodder for those who claim Christians do not really love one another. Do we? Are we known to unbelievers for our position on Sovereignty or free will? ... or by our true love... in Spirit and in truth and word and deed... for each other and for the helpless people of the world? That is a much more important question. But... You get to decide!
P.S. I love Mr Piper and so many of his sermons. He does a good job of exegesis on so many things and his sermons on the Book of Job are truly outstanding. But I believe both that God is totally Sovereign, and that He has granted us to have a responsibility in our own destiny that we alone must own-up in how we respond to His grace. Scripture illustrates both positions.
Agreed
One of the helps in understanding God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in salvation was to as:
Can I believe Christ unto salvation(true repentance and faith) without the help of the Holy Spirit?
If I answer 'yes', that would be quite unscriptural.
If I answer 'no' then my will is freely responsible but not independent of the Spirit's help.
That's the mystery which only God can resolve where He is totally sovereign in drawing me and I am totally responsible to come to him.
Spot on! In order for God to be just in His punishment of those who reject Him and just in His redeeming of those who accept Him, man must be responsible for the response. But, since we are dead in sin, the Holy Spirit helps in drawing us to Him. How all this works out is something we can't truly grasp, because we are finite human beings. To try to dial it down to either view, Calvinist or Arminian, is to put God in a box. Our faith is that God's word is true, and if so, whatever it presents to us, we trust by faith. It clearly presents to us God's sovereignty as well as man's free will and responsibility to respond to His calling.
james cj Thank you for this response. It succinctly and neatly derives the right conclusion.
God has given the Holy Spirit to all believers.
You are not a believer until you have chosen Jesus, so you have to make that choice without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Does this mean the Holy Spirit has no part in that? No! The Holy Spirit compels ALL men, but he cannot dwell within the unbeliever.
Not total depravity but total inability. You are not able to believe and follow god so god works with his Spirit inside you with his help you go go forward
What an awesome bit of preaching
II Peter 1:16-21! “We have something more sure” (in essence -than experiential circumstance - even eyewitness testimony!!) For no prophecy” (Word of God) “ comes from someone’s own interpretation “ (truer translation and certainly less subject to misunderstanding is in the English “from someone’s own thoughts” ! Thus vs 21>source = Holy Spirit.
“Peter’s concern here is the reliability of Scripture Itself not the authority of those who interpret it”! ( fromNote vs 1:20 -ESV Reformation Study Bible )
What a blessing Dr. Piper! Your encouragement is resonating boldly. We are not here to be God’s P.R. agents. May we, by His great grace and enabling be found “rightly handling the Word of Truth”. May we lovingly, humbly and sensitively bear witness to the seriousness of the proclamation of His magnificent Glory no matter how severe to our finite perception! Embracing and proclaiming this comfort, while falling at His feet in Spirit and Truth is our indispensable calling and gift! The rarity of the proclamation of His Glorious Sovereignty has proven tragically consequential!!
reminds me of Larry David
We try to make God mysterious when in fact Ephesians tells us God wants us to know Him. Jesus stated the servant does not know what the master is doing but the children can know. We are God's own children and have access to the throne room so we can know the heart of God. We are told we have the mind of Christ.
The Bible literally says "God works in mysterious ways."
hallelujah!
Who was the Arminian who said to bring your philosophy to the text?
"calvinists don't get it" - Piper
Thank you for saying it! 🤣
out of context quote, what Arminians do best with Scripture
@@gurgensahakyan2979 No that's what Calvinists do. All you do is cherry pick in order to defend your distorted view.
@@AM-bz7ru This is why Calvinism is a cult, similar to Catholicism, Mormonism, etc.
Yes Calvinists are logical but not rationalists. We don't deny Biblical propositions because it doesn't fit our ouny minds
This is an old debate and I have peace over it so it does not concern me anymore. I can tell you the negative aspects that both sides tend to have character wise but that is not my intent here. I think both sides have their valid and true points but both sides have incorrect final conclusions. I am a follower of JESUS the CHRIST...period, GOD is sovereign there is NO doubt and we have some form of freedom up to the point where it intersects with GOD's sovereignty but to conclude that (while he is in his FULL RIGHT as owner of all) some are created as hopeless drones would lead to the conclusion that saved drones are still drones and GOD's love, mercy, justice, and perfect ways would make that theory unworkable.
So, yes GOD is sovereign and yes GOD can do with his property what he desires, and NO you can not overcome the boundaries of freedom GOD in his sovereignty gave you (your will suspending GOD's will for he is GOD and not subject to ANYONE) but to punish in hell everlasting a robot that was hopeless to go against his programming is a horrible conclusion that Calvinist get wrong same as Armenians making GOD a subject to the will's of men. So, both have valid points and both come to incorrect conclusions. In my opinion based on what I read in his word...he does not contradict himself.
With all of this said, Mr Piper is still my brother in CHRIST and he does great work for the kingdom!
What has come to be known as "Calvinism" came out of Augustine's attempt to explain how infants could become the "elect" through water baptism. Since they had not come to faith, it must be based on the will of another. It could have nothing to do with the will of the child. See the following about Dr. Ken Wilson's research on the writings of Augustine on Leighton Flowers CZcams channel.
"Was Augustine the first to introduce "CALVINISM" into the Church?"
.
Perfect
What philosopher is he talking about that he didn't name?
Who is the philosopher? William Lane Craig or Ravi Zacarias?
Ever notice how the mission of Calvinists is to convince you of something they believe about their relationship with God, rather than the person of Jesus Christ?
This is what that looks like.
show me a calvinist who doesn't believe that they are among the elect?
Well, he would be correct since all Christians are elect.
Not all Christians are Calvinists...also, not all Calvinists are Christians.
@@skidmoro9642 to God, only the ones He chose belong to Him. To man, they think they can tell god they are 'saved' because they believe in their own self righteousness. OBBBBvious
"eklektos"
chosen favorite
FAMILY
Only hereditary children are undeniable common sense
The resurrection is a spiritual dna test
becuase it hinges on God not arrogant man. WHy we sleep so well :)
According to Arminianism, all believers are elect too. So, I counter, show me an Arminianist who doesn't believe he is among the elect?
This is why Jesus never left a text.... He left the Holy Spirit.
still a beautiful story, Our God is a Mighty Fortress indeed, death cannot break Him, No demon, no devil, no despair, nor pain nor anything, can stop God.
while calvinism does not tell you these directly,it tells us that
-God does not love everybody equally
-he doesnt desire everyone to be saved
-you do not have any freedom of choice
-God plays favourites
-most importantly,There is no real present in this world.Because love is not real love when it is forced or demanded.Like if a robot was programmed to say 'i love you' and act lovingly,that is not genuine real love.(Love requires freewill)
The Bible tells us that God is compassionate for the lost and desires all to be saved,and that is the God i serve
You have a pretty horrible understanding of what Calvinism is.
The Bible also says God is not a respecter of persons. (But I suppose their definition of predestination is still grace.)
Ty for this. ❣️ #PreciousPuritans being a Calvinist or an Armenian are both non-essentials of what it means to be a Christian. Historically Christianity has had few core beliefs and excessive non core beliefs. We've made it harder than it ever was and have fought pushed people away from JESUS and divided over these non essentials for far too long. See the Scholar Dr. Leighton Flowers / #RuslanKD
This discussion isn't about being from Armenia.
Here’s something the text says, “God is not a man that he should lie; neither a son of man that he should change his mind.” Numbers 23:19
This is interesting but it seems a bit off topic when you see the title of the video.
God resists the proud, he gives grace to the humble (James 4;6). God elects the humble. Everyone has a shot, if they are humble God will draw them. You cannot escape God's grace.
"If they are humble, God will draw them", what scripture do you draw that from? James is speaking to believers, so that wouldn't apply to salvation, I don't think. My experience has been that there are not scriptures that point to God waiting to move until we do something or have a certain attitude. That's how it seems to me, what are your thoughts?
Has anyone noticed that Arminians pray every time like a Calvinist?
I understand and agree that what is most important is to be a Christian. Other then being a Calvinist or a Armenian. That being said, reading the Bible or teaching the Bible it is much better to approach it as a Calvinist.
+nicholas bronson
Does Jesus love the "unelect", Nick?
20july1944 According to scripture you can see a couple of degrees of God's love. In seminary it's referred to as "common grace". A good verse on this is Matthew 5:45, "so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." But in scripture there is a different quality of love, and different in degree from His love for His own.
nicholas bronson
So is God's love perfect?
It sounds like God's love is alloyed with a lot of cruelty (intention and thus desire to cause pain and suffering in others).
In general, you just said He "loves" the unelect through "common grace" which is basically in an ultimately cruel way.
He "loved" Jacob but also created Esau to "hate".
Please read my post at the top of this video, and respond.
I can repost it down here but I don't want to flood the thread with repetitions of my deathless prose.
20july1944 go ahead and repost it here if you wouldn't mind please.
nicholas bronson
I think that would be rude to others because it is moderately long -- I posted it 10 hours ago and just now I looked and I see I'm still the top post.
God!
Any guess who that famous philiosopher he's pertaining to?
Sounds like William Lane Craig maybe?
Perhaps He is the potter and we are the clay? As Romans 9 takes center stage so often while discussing this topic, I find that so much of the central message clearly spoken to us from the Father in this passage is that "Who are we to question God"? I very much see the sovereignty at work THROUGHOUT scripture. Sovereignty that is purely removed from ANY human effort. Some of that sovereignty was demonstrated in wrath and judgment and others in grace in mercy.
The ultimate position is that we are a born again children of God seeing through a glass dimly. Our thoughts and ways cant possibly comprehend the fullness of God. To argue and debate on these issues in a lot of ways is an example of our lack of understanding. There is NO clear cut picture of complete understanding on this side. It is absolutely ok to discuss this matters as a point of learning but never as a point of debate.
The thing is no way is 100% correct, mind are quite finite however I see the Calvinist side even before lol i knew these existed as more biblical, but really and truly, it's not that big a deal
I haven’t studied these different theologies a whole lot….. but I think I’m somewhere in the middle../ because Christ said that the law would be written on our hearts…..
It IS possible for a human to be blessed with the correct ears and heart to hear and understand what the text MEANS.
I regularly understand the Bible immediately/intuitively and then find that the Calvinists would agree anyway.
It’s how my entire walk has gone. The reason I resonate with John Piper so much in the first place has to do with how the Holy Spirit had walked me through my philosophy…….. In my experience (which I suppose Calvinists might immediately disregard) my ability to hear multiple dimensions of a text aligns with Calvinism. What also remain are pieces of residual understanding which are later applied to past or present learning.
My point is that I see the Holy Spirit thoroughly working as a teacher, and with the right ears, it points toward a middle ground anyway.
I think it’s a moot point. One can only determine their orientation based on experience as a root. A person doesn’t just decide to be one or the other. It’s a reflection of the experience had. So we fool ourselves if we believe we belong to a group out of choice……
It’s all experience. But, I’m told Gnosticism is bad so…. I guess I’m on the outskirts…
There is no middle ground. You either believe that God made salvation available to everyone or you believe the Calvinists lie that God is sadistic and created some people for no other reason but to torment them eternally.
@@AM-bz7rucan I decide to choose to be a Calvinist?
Believe is more than just head knowledge, it's actually taking God at His Word. Trust in Him!
The bible is supposed to make sense, Calvinisme doesn't make sense in anyway and it has a devastating effect on the spiritual condition almost fully eliminating the much needed grace of the Holy Spirit.
the great question is why do calvanists get bent out of shape about arminiansm? if they believe ppl are predestined, let them believe it and not get mixed up in endless argument, that lead nowhere.
It is usually Arminians who get bent out of shape about Calvinism.
@@gregb6469 Because Calvinism is promoting apathy among christians.
Apathy is NOT love!
@@Michael-Archonaeus --Where do you get that bizarre idea?
I'm trying to learn more about the topic, but I'm seeing the exact opposite, for the most part. I'm seeing people damn Calvinist to Hell, saying it is a doctrine of Satan. They absolutely hate it and are passionate in hating it. I'm still really not sure why, as I'm undecided about the whole issue. I guess I used to despise it a bit too because of what I had heard, but I'm much more open to it now, and I want to get this right.
They, the “Calvinists”, don’t like the idea of their brothers trying to share in the Glory of God. God alone gets all the Glory of salvation. He does not share His Glory. We are not partially responsible for our saving. Our repentance and our faith are fruits of His work, not roots.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Ephesians 2:8-10
4:00 Gary Habermas?
Amen.
sooo Piper was in Houston and i didn't know smh lol
same here...was bummed.
you think my church would have had it in the bulletin.
It is in between
No we don't argue "it cannot be" we argue that the bible does not teach this limited atonement nonsense.
Yeah - there's no way limited atonement could be true. But let's check. Is it a sin to not believe and put your faith in Christ as your only hope for salvation?
If no, then why does God send anyone to hell - because after all, Christ died to pay for the sins of the whole world. Which means that he died for the sins that I committed, and since it isn't a sin to reject Christ, then he can't send me to hell!!
If yes, then doesn't Christ death pay and atone for the sin of not believing in Christ for my salvation - in which case God has no basis to send me to hell because he died to pay for all of my sins. Which means that I can't be sent to hell! So either way, there's no way I can be sent to hell because God atoned for the sins of everyone and not for a limited number of people!!
What's that you say? God still sends people to hell? But how? You mean only those who repent and believe in Christ will be saved and not go to hell? But that would mean that Christ limits the atonement of his death to only those who believe in Christ and not those who go to hell, that would mean that he pays for the sins of all who believe in Him and He acts as the great high priest who mediates on behalf of those people who put their faith in Christ so as to atone for their sins, but his death does not atone for the sins of people who reject Christ. What should we call this wild explanation? May we should call it...oh I have an idea...limited atonement.
Many people are four point Calvinists the term is Amyraldism, we hold four points outside of limited atonement
@@sonofnun1917 you know , i do see the limited atonement points, but the passages are clear God showed love for mankind through his son's death, ( Im four point Calvinist) however, "receiving" the atonement is done through faith, nd it's quite understandable, looking throughout the bible people were justified faith, Rahab, Abraham etc
@@dalkeiththomas9352 Respectfully (and I'm not trying to be snarky or use a "gottcha"), for whom do you think Christ is interceding for before the father? There are only two options.
Option 1) Jesus - this very instant - is interceding before the Father on behalf of all those people who are true believers in Christ AND on behalf of all those people who are not true believers and will not believe in Christ? or
Option 2) Jesus - this very instance - is interceding before the Father on behalf of ONLY those people who are true believers in Christ AND NOT on behalf of anyone who is not a true believer or died as an unbeliever in Christ?
@@dalkeiththomas9352 This is a great explanation of why biblical exegesis consistently points to particular redemption. Was the cross a universal offering that includes people who would reject Christ and die as unbelievers? The bible doesn't support that view. Jesus' intercession through his priesthood - czcams.com/video/KJoNvqihbiU/video.html
Cross is in perfect harmony with Christ's intercessory work before the father. czcams.com/video/xj82kerFFCM/video.html
I tried to refute the doctrines of grace when it was first introduced by a friend many moons back. But when I started looking at Scripture, to investigate Calvinism's claims, I experienced what physically felt as my brain being ripped apart. I tried to reason my way around scripture, but alas, there it is and not long after, I submitted to what God revealed in scripture even though I do not understand why it is so unfair for God not to elect everyone to salvation.
Im sorry you had that experience, it sounds terrible, I hope you find hope and rest in Jesus!
The bible never says God elected anyone for salvation... The only thing that comes close is God choosing people IN Christ to be blameless and holy .. not to be saved though
I am not a Calvanist , but John Piper brings a humility to Calvanism that allows you to listen to his point of view on the scriptures.
It's called playing to emotions.
Not that I don't think that John Piper is sincere in his convictions... But if there is one thing Calvinists had taught me is that our FEELING really have no place in our Faith... but this man really seems to be all about the feelings and emotions. Again, I believe his humility is sincere but that doesn't make him any more correct.
I thought that you were going to be fair and explain the difference between both sides of the coin, but you are just passive aggressive with how you deal with this issue. I guess some of us arent smart enough to be christians.
High intellect is only a hindrance to faith. Be happy for it, if you have a lower IQ, because it just makes you less likely to become wise in your own eyes. Spiritual vanity is a horrible thing!
are you talking about Piper, or one of the commenters here?
This is absolutely ridiculous. Just a typical caricature of the non-Calvinist positions. Arminians/Molinists and the other positions do not put God in box's and if he is talking about JP Moreland or William Lane Craig they never said those things. I've taken classes with both of them.
REDRAGON12345 Well, you'd have to call him a liar if you don't believe someone said it.
+reddragon12345 I have heard William lane use and say things described by piper. it doesn't matter if you took classes with him. you have not heard all of his talks
+John Mackey III Exactly where did you hear William Lane Craig say those things? Of course it matters that I took classes with him, because I know what his views are (and I've read his books and talked to him personally). Craig thinks Calvinism is unbiblical 'and' is philosophically implausible, as do a number of theologians.
+REDRAGON12345 in his debates. I really don't care if you ever spoke to him or not. his view on free will is ridiculous, especially in light of the brilliance of his other stuff.
by the way, Ravi Zach. smoke William in a pseudo debate panel. ripped Craig's view of evil and man's ability to threads. so walk away man's sovereignty of choice and God's sovereignty do not coexist in the same place at the same time.
we do not need theologies... we need God's commands and a good relationship with Him...
As the vernacular once was, "Heavy".
Both views seem to focus on parts, and not the complete picture.
That all said, Calvinists seem much more supportive of their stance. They seem to know the Word better.
Just being honest. We do not have to understand God. We simply accept what He says and obey. He will take care of our lack of understanding.
Atheists love arguments between Christians. Let us peacefully, with all love discuss differences with humble hearts. If anyone feels tension, best to cool down before posting.
Let us journey through the Word, and let the Word speak so we can obey clearly.
totally agree, thank you for your gentleness.
Well known philosopher William Lane Craig did a really good thorough study on this matter. He looked at the arguments for both sides and concluded with Molinism. I highly recommend it to anyone who is wrestling with these tensions! God bless
name his book or video series please
There is a problem
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
please note on this very short list of 7 abominations that lying makes this list twice, that is how much God hates lying.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
ALL false teaching and false doctrines are lies, those that hold and spread them are liars.
this is why God has shown us to
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenæus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
as we study God's Word and ask for the truth, The Holy Ghost will bring to our remembrance scripture that goes with what e are currently reading increasing our understanding and because God is doing this all of the Praise honor and glory belongs to God alone.
false doctrine and false teaching overthrow's faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
there will be no excuses for people that held and spread false teaching and false doctrine because we are told to search the scriptures to see if those things are so, to prove all things and hold fast that which is good.
people are deceived because they want to be because that which they are being taught is pleasing to their flesh.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Jer 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
people love false doctrine that pleases their flesh and are ready and willing to hear and believe it never once being a Berean, or proving anything they are being taught, oh but when they stand before God they will try to blame their teachers and preachers but there is too much in the Word of God about seeing if those things are so and they will know that they did not do The Word of God in searching or proving if those things were so and will go on to their just rewards.
The only problem is that he can't support Molinism through biblical exegesis. It's a philosophical construct that still places man as the ultimate decider of not only who goes to heaven and hell, but how the world is created and actualized. It sounds good, until you recognize that it is completely man-centered. But hey, we get to keep our libertarian free will, and that's all that matters!
@@sonofnun1917
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
the Key to all of these is
Rom 8:29 *For whom he did foreknow,* he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
God forknew who would accept Him and endure unto the end
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
there are several scriptures about enduring.
it is not those who start the race that will enter Heaven but those who finish the race.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
the foolish Virgins started the race but did not finish it, the Unprofitable Servant started the race but did not finish it.
God knows who will not only start the race but who will also finish it, they are the ones who have been predestinated.
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
out of the 4 castings of the seed only one casting
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
one out of four castings is all that would become a wise Virgin and a profitable Servant.
@@dennishagans6339,
So what is a false doctrine?
How do you know which is the false and the True doctrine between
Arminianism and Calvinism, and William Craig'sdoctrine?
One thing I am sure of is that I'm responsible for my sin, and me alone. I cant blame God.
Amen!
Ok, first of all, I am not strictly an Arminian and I am not strictly a Calvinist. I do lean Calvinist somewhat though.
Also, those who are Arminians do not need to repent (just as those who are Calvinists do not need to repent), they only need to repent if they do not accept Jesus as their personal Savior and sovereign Lord, do not allow him to enter their life, do not believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, and do not believe that he rose from the dead on the third day. Only then do they need to repent. As for biblical repentance, that is necessary. When Arminians and Calvinists start to rumble, there is a problem. How will the outside world know we are Christians if we are fighting each other over this issues?. They should know we are Christians by our love for one another (despite our disagreement on what are really ''minor'' issues) and for our love for our neighbors (from whatever faith or ''no'' faith they come from). We as Christians can disagree on this matters, these matters do not save anyone, what saves someone is what I mentioned above. One must believe in Jesus' death, resurrection, and allow Him to enter your life and change you from the inside out.
When I think of the Arminian perspective, I think of it being man's earthly perspective to God calling them, either we answer or we don't, but it is still a choice. When I think of the Calvinistic perspective, I think of it being looking at the choice of man through God's perspective, since he knows who will be saved and who sadly will not saved because they refuse to trust in Jesus, accept his death and resurrection, and allow him to enter their life. I personally don't see how the Calvinist view sounds sadistic, those who say that a loving God would send someone to hell, are forgetting that God is not just a God of love, mercy, forgiveness, redemption, etc but is also a God of justice as shown in both the Old and the New Testaments, in fact Jesus mentioned hell a lot of times.
But I personally accept both views together, because I see verses for both views in the Bible, highlighting God's sovereignty as well as our choice in view of that sovereignty. I don't see a contradiction. Those are my two cents. Thank you, John Piper for your views and for your outlook and I love you brothers and sisters in Christ. God bless.
There is something wrong with your sentence "Do not allow God to enter to your life"... That sentence is unbiblical. Repent
MinYoung Han There is nothing wrong with my sentence, if you read it in context (which you did not), you would understand what I am saying. God bless.
You can't just allow God to enter your life. Remember, you are DEAD in sin. Ohh right, I forgot that you kinda are Arminian.
MinYoung Han What I meant when I said you need to just allow God to enter your life, I don't mean that he goes in there and you don't allow him to clean out the garbage, the sin that is in there. When you allow God to enter into your life, you who were dead in sin, become alive in Christ and he starts the process of cleaning out the sin that is in your life. You still have to deal with the flesh but God helps you to deal with it daily. I lean Arminian, but I see both the Arminian and Calvinist view points in the Bible. I still don't get what your beef is with Arminianism, I never deny God's sovereignty. Finally, if you had not just latched onto that sentence but looked at all the sentences put together you would understand what I am saying. God bless. Have a beautiful day!
Will Powell What Calvinists believe is that because we are dead in sin, we cannot exercise our volition towards God, we cant "want" God because sin has corrupted our mind, heart and will so that we are biased against Him. In other words, given a thousand chances, we would never chose God because we are "dead in sin" (Check out the doctrine of original sin). Therefore election is simply the sovereign work of Gods Spirit that comes into our lives, subverts our will which is opposed to him, and makes His love and grace irresistible, so that our mind, heart and will want to choose him.
If anything the doctrine of election is true to the fact that we are saved by grace because if we chose God then we merited our salvation, which would be based something inherent to that which led you to choose God, be it your intelligence or prudence - but if that's the case, it is no longer grace.
TULIP IS WILTED!
Having free will does not mean God isn't in control.
john is entitled to his opinions no matter how wrong they are.
Stop arguing about scripture, just love each other.
It's not God's fault but your own if you go to Hell. He already knew that you wouldn't believe in Him before He ever created you. The apostles never preached free will man. They preached election. I won't argue with you. Only God can show and lead you into all truth. Jesus saves.
Well if you believe and have been saved then that was what He chose to do! Its not indoctrination man. Its predestination and foreknowledge! If you are saved then He knew you would believe. Quit making it about you. Its about Christ! He brought you to repentance! He is still sovereign!
+Christopher Wilder seems as though you believe a little of both as well. if HE knew you would reject HIM, it doesn't mean that you had no choice in the matter. It just means HE knew what your free will would be before you did.
Absolutely! Amen brother. I believe the Bible uses the term 'election' over 90 times.
"He already knew that you wouldn't believe in Him before He ever created you" Don't you see the evil in that conclusion? God creates a man to be eternally condemned? You don't see the madness in that?
Jesse G
Read Romans 9! Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. it specifically says that God decided this before either had been born and done anything good or evil. God tells Moses that he will have mercy on whom he has mercy. God has the right to determine what he wants when he wants. It is nothing but your own humanism that has a problem with God being sovereign in all things.
The most helpful talk on Calvinism I have heard.
i agree with the above
Both are "theories" and each have there own problems; they both do not contain the entire truth.
what would you say are a couple of the problems with calvinism?
Calvinists: "You have no say in your own destiny."
Arminians: "God has no say in your destiny."
They're both extremes, and I believe the truth is somewhere inbetween.
I would say the answer lies in the mystery of God's sovereignty , and how we actually have a chance to change history.
Either we obey God, or don't.
God knows what's going to happen, but we dont, so we can actively choose to submit to God and have the better outcome! Mystery solved. Obey, and listen to God. (Not saying you'll be perfect, no one is, except He who is called Christ)
Ruben T You don’t understand. On Calvinists you are right. With arminians. God called us first and He gave the Holy Spirit who convicts us of sin and unrighteousness. Jesus gave us grace and we can only react by accepting or disregarding. I gladly chose to accept :)
Actual Calvinists realize" God called me" Everyone else has to answer for themselves.
All others are humanists period. They do not believe the Bible or justification by faith in Christ ALONE. they say the bible is not true because God is not just to condemn 'righteous' mankind. As satan said in the garden you can be good without God n your own... hence every one who leaves the path has fallen for the same lie. Not one person who isnt calvinsit has rejected their own righteousness. They think they will live in heaven with hitler and stalin and gacy
@@uncasunga1800 actually calvinists started a war. They mingled with wordly politics. They had hatred against the jews. I would say on the fruits the trees are known...
@@Bijbelstudies Calvinist hates the jews? Source please?
Piper didn’t say anything here except that he believes in Calvinism. He told two stories, one about his time in seminary and one about the reaction of the parishioners wife to her husband’s death. Other than that he did nothing to prove his case.
It sounds like he's saying that because it's most comfortable to believe this way when times are tough for us, we should be Calvinists. Is that what I'm meant to take away from this?
When a Calvinist alludes to "mystery" they typically mean "a complete contradiction that we cannot explain."
So true.. I've been running into this a lot lately. "God decreed everything but we are responsible for our sin... it's a mystery." It's actually a blatant contradiction.
wouldn't that be a good definition of mystery? If not, how would you define it differently?
@@kylebailey4574 maybe, "a truth that is difficult or impossible to understand."
I just don't think it's right that whenever you run into a contradiction, you simply appeal to mystery. It COULD BE, the reason you don't understand it is because it's illogical and impossible to understand. Like a married bachelor.
I don't necessarily mean "you". Just some ppl in general.
@@PracticalFaith ok, gotcha. can you point to one such "mystery" so I can better understand your position?
@@kylebailey4574 sure. The Trinity is a mystery. There is One God but three Persons. It would be a contradiction if I said there was one God but 3 Gods
Jesus paid it all
All to him I owe
Sin left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
- for ALL that desire HIM. And THAT IS THE GOSPEL. No doctrine can beat that.
Most stupid comment I have seen today, you need help from the medical community, thoughts and prayers will not fix your delusional bullshit.
Amen
The wife comes back to “hear the word of God” 30 minutes after her husband died. He makes it sound like that was a good thing. Malachi ain’t going no where! Something doesn’t settle right with me there.
The Scriptures say, he who believes in Me is not condemned, he who believes not is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18. Any questions?
A flaming free-willer 😂😂!!
GOD cannot be explained, much less on calvinistic style...
I disagree with John Piper. Because calvin said that the scripture that says if i be lifted up from the earth that i will draw all men unto me......does not really mean ALL....so who is the one who does not read into the text??
Was the "major philosopher" William Lang Craig??? not assigning labels, just asking...
That's who immediately came to my mind. That said, WLC is probably the most famous Christian philosopher of recent times. It could be him, but it could be many others as well.
I don't think WLC would make his position out to only be philosophical, like the email says. Could be a misinterpretation from the email's sender, though.