Rules Light RPG's Are Doomed
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- čas přidán 22. 06. 2024
- I love rules light RPG's like PbtA systems and OSR systems. But the fact of the matter is, games like Dungeon World, Old School Essentials, and Mork Borg are doomed. Here's why!!!!
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TABLE OF CONTENTS
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0:00 an inconvenient truth
1:05 you hate art, i get it
2:05 spelling it out for you - Hry
You can't expect Dungeon World to be relevant on youtube when the whole system is just a core rulebook and that's it. In order for RPGs to have any sort of relevancy on youtube, they require frequent releases. That's why WotC has been shitting out books a la quantity > quality.
I have Dungeon World, but I honestly don't care about running it at all, it just doesn't get me excited. No setting books, no adventures, nothing. The book is boring, I don't ever feel like looking at it. Mork Borg is also a weird example, it's a pretty nieche game, the art style isn't for everybody.
Necrotic Gnome also got super lazy and didn't bother with more adventures for OSE. They had a huge hype and they're still highly praised in the community, but they then switched their focus onto Dolmenwood and let OSE in a rut for year. Yes Adventure Anthology is ''coming soon'', but you can't just leave a system in a rut for so long. OSE is a HUGE name in the OSR scene, they should have continued creating adventures. By now there should be A TON, not a mesely 5.
Most systems are like this, which is why they fail to create youtube hype. WotC have the big bucks, even if their product is pretty shit compared to other RPGs, they are still the closest to a lifestyle brand TTRPGs have.
This is probably the best/most accurate comment I’ve seen on the subject. No notes, I’m in full agreement with everything you said except your lack of desire to run Dungeon World - it’s a great system!
Other than that though, my friend you nailed it
@@tabletopbro The system is really great! But unfortunately I'm the kind of person that requires adventure books and supplements to get invested. That's to my fault of course.
@@fufu1405 So freekin' WHAT ???
There's TONNES of that available from OTHER Publishers :)
Nab The Basic Fantasy Modules &GET TO PLAYIN' !
Completely ignores Lampblack & Brimstone.
Conveniently ignores the galactic Morg Borg supplements scene.
Accuses EF of being lazy while they are literally world building their own idea instead of just publishing more adventures for what is a reskin of B/E. Oh and Gary's Appendix, Delver Magazine et. al.
Yup top notch comment there.
Yours,
A PF2e GM.
@@GenreBGoode I have never heard of Lampblack & Brimstone. I tried searching on youtube for it, nothing came up. I also tried looking on reddit for it, but got only very little information. I'll gladly take suggestions, but as it is right now, it sounds like you mentioned a very very little know supplement book, you can't expect me to know every little nook and cranny in the OSR scene. You can't just mention a small supplement (or whatever it is) and then act as if I ignored an elephant in the room. There are hundreds and thousands of supplements for every system.
Every RPG has supplements, that is not what this conversation is about. The core book for Morg Borg doesn't speak to me one bit, I don't enjoy the art style and I don't like metal in my games. I am not saying it's bad, I am saying it is nieche. I've heard great things about it, but when I looked at some of the pages, I couldn't imagine ever buying, reading and running it. How are 1000 supplements going to make me enjoying looking at the book?
I re-read my comment multiple times and I'm still trying to figure out what you mean with ''EF''? I called Necrotic Gnome lazy, I don't know what EF means though.
Much respect. D&D has an alliterative name like Coca-Cola and they were the first. They also have billions of dollars for advertising. It's like Budweiser. Budweiser is the best selling beer in America. But Sam Adams makes BETTER beer and appeals to a more discerning consumer. Mork Borg and OSE are microbrews and microbrew RPG revolution is just beginning. IMHO.
Buds going down, so this may have been a comment of forboding!😊
@calvanoni5443 it is a Rhyme, the sane agendas that caused buds death spiral are very strong in wotc and also causing their decline in sales.
Well said Professor;
@@calvanoni5443It quite literally isn't. Some crybabies got mad over a Instagram ad. That's like saying WOTC is going down because of the OGL nonsense. They aren't. They're as big as ever. Funny thing is Bud did nothing wrong, and WOTC most definitely did.
@@dylantaylor603 apparently you haven't seen what's happening to Wotc sales.
I think this goes beyond just the ‘social hierarchy’ when discussing D&D. WotC has gone on record saying “D&D isn’t a TTRPG, it’s a lifestyle brand.” and as much as I hate it, it’s true. Dungeons and Dragons has morphed into something far more than the game we play at our tables as well as still remaining the catch-all term for every Table-Top Roleplaying game. It’s as impressive as it is depressing.
Mostly depressing & marketing crap wish list by Wotc/Hasbro.
Indies don't need to "beat" Hasbro to survive and thrive. For me games like ICRPG really cleaned the carburetor on what was needed for a game to shine, and clarified what our goal of time at the table was, and it really is different at every table. I don't think the hobby has ever reflected that reality more than with our current state of the industry. It's great!
exactly! not every company strives to sell 150 mill of printed books worldwide. That's insane. You also tend to get much better quality content from indie devs. ICRPG core is still one of the best GM guide book out there.
The premise utterly fails when you consider that Mork Borg and OSE have light-years more content than GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. It's just not a rules-light vs rules-heavy problem. It's a D&D vs the world problem, and Pathfinder is D&D.
Fair play
OSE/BX/LabyrinthLord already have more content than anyone could use in a lifetime lol.
I think it's more the DnD likes vs the world.
OSE- Updated B/X and 1st edition AD&D
Swords and Wozardry- updated 0e D&D
Dungeon Crawl Classics- 3.5 rules with Basic D&D sensibilities and feels.
The other thing is measuring success of things like Tabletop RPGs is insane because of the nature of it all. Their will always be that one guy who likes Dungeon World, of he find on the Internet that a group of people who like Dungeon World, and they play online or in person for years, that would mean success.
A lot of people pine for and want to play West End Games stuff, and the games go for ridiculous money on eBay and stuff. The company failed but the impact of the games are still felt.
@@talldorf6445 I not only agree that's what I intended to be received by my original post. OSR and indeed NSR are D&D. Pathfinder is D&D. Now I could offer some alternate choices and point out failures in the D&D space-Classic Fantasy didn't overcome being Mythras at its core, The Fantasy Trip has all the elements of a really simple OSR rule set and nobody gives a fig about it-but it's really clear that the space is vastly more towards D&D and D&D likes.
Caring about builds and stuff like that is precisely the part I HATE in some RPGs (and also in video games, to some extent, most MMORPGS are hell for me) and this is why I started looking for other systems.
I remember that, I was looking for games where you don't have to create a character mechanics for 2 hours, count arrows, distances, money and things like that (it was obvious to me that it can be done in some simple way). The bad thing is that a lot of people are used to this way of thinking about RPG systems, because of video games 😩
I got into rules light systems because I freaking hate initiative. So I feel you on that!
Can't agree more @slashpl8800.
As most people, I came from 5e. When a rpgs majored of session is combat and has some lengthy combat mechanics. Now I play mostly rpg with lesser combat focus. Right now been playing COC7e for years 👌
the worst part is the way most people (including me) play D&D chiefly to roleplay and experience a narrative, meaning there's just a million extra rules and things to remember so that they can try and have an experience similar to those that actual narrative-based RPGs are designed to facilitate. And you can play and learn those so much more easily!
"Caring about builds and stuff like that is precisely the part I HATE in some RPGs"
Funny thing I learned while playing Lex Arcana (which i highly recommend you do NOT do, I kind of hated the system): your character story and position in the setting is part of their "build", and is just as important a tool as any to get through problems.
While I may understand disliking crunchy systems, thinking about what a character can do based on what they are can still lead to a lot of narratively enriching reflections.
In that game, you play as some sort "X-Files" special units in the Roman Empire. My character was an ex-Legionnary, so I realized pretty quickly that meant I would have been able to effectively pose as a guard/patrol by requisitioning one of their uniforms and, in case things got violent, I had two advantages:
First, my cover included weapons. And armor. So I couldn't simply be bonked on the head.
Second, I could call for help and any patrolman would have been on my side.
So I started asking my GM how order was maintained in the setting and started looking up how it was done in the real Roman Empire, so that I could roleplay this correctly.
In other words, I took a narrative aspect of my character, I took a narrative aspect of the setting, and found a way to turn it into a reliable tool for problem solving. And when an aspect of your character becomes a reliable asset for gameplay... well, that's a build.
@@leonardorossi998 Sure, I agree. Character's profession, items etc are constraints that help with creative thinking. I just often don't like trade-offs that come with various mechanical elements, I'm not ditching the rules completely. Choosing a playbook or a class with a couple of numbers and checkboxes I'll spent just 15 minutes on are absolutely good for me. I just want to spend more time imagining the fictional world.
"When an aspect of your character becomes a reliable asset for gameplay, that's a build" - I get what you mean. I think it's worth to note that what you described is similar to the thing called fictional positioning - this term is often used to explain why we don't need mechanics for every little thing in the game - for example we can have some general procedures of resolving situations where we give advantages or disadvantages based on what the table (or GM) agrees is important (or cool) in a roll and we don't care that much if the chance of success is lower or higher as long as everyone is fine with that.
Not only do I not think that it's a problem, the TTRPG I'm running not being super popular is great. It means that players don't come to me with a ton of outside expectations. They arrive at my table curious about what is possible instead of having a rote list of expectations and hoops I'm expected to jump. One drawback is that it's harder to advertise your game to new players, but if you have a group that enjoys playing in your games already it's not hard to start a game of an obscure TTRPG.
I also talk about it with my friends about the games we are playing to occupy out of game time. I don't need more excuses to slog through social media. Less social media would do me well honestly.
Yeah I feel the same way.
I've been in this hobby for two decades.
I have no desire for a bunch of people who ONLY know about D&D from Critical Role to show up at my table with (in my view) completely incorrect preconceived notions about what D&D is meant to be.
I'd rather just have a smaller community of players.
All of the “unsuccessful” games that you mentioned have all reached their kickstarter goals within mere hours of starting the campaigns.
What meter are you using to judge success?
content and consumption. consumerist brainrot
Basically, searching CZcams and seeing how much stuff pops up.
@@kylesteinhauser2535which is what, exactly
@@kevoreilly6557 the majority of things you find are for 5e and the minimum things are OSRs. That’s what he’s using as a metric.
@@kevoreilly6557 searching those videos and seeing how many views they get vs dnd/pf2e
In my experience the reason these communities don't talk about news for their ruleslite RPGs isn't because there isn't news about it but because they're busy playing the games with the limited time they have. If they wanted perpetual fomo type stuff then they could play DnD, but Mork Borg and it's expansions sell really well on being the starter kit to a portfolio of original characters and more in depth storytelling with next to no initial time/cash investment.
They're not doomed to fail because they fit a niche better than anything else I've run into. If they actually are doomed it's because they're at risk of being purchased by a bigger corporation and homogenized with other less very specific hobby ventures.
Every Osr product is just cannibalizing BX and advanced additions anyway. Everyone is just trying to innovate on the same thing. I don’t think anyone will ever stop people from trying to find a different better way to do things. No matter the type of game. The human spirit strives to make things and create. It doesn’t matter what you are what you have going on or who you are. You will do this.
idk, Mörk Borg has an incredibly active community.
It's a very woke and toxic one as well.
@@UltraTtrpgerwait what?
@sem2119 the majority of the online fan base and creators and staunch, dumb communists.
reddit doesn't count, everything appears to have active community there
WotC has created an environment of consumption and brand loyalty around D&D, people buy the products and identify with the game, they invest their time and money and become emotionally attached. A company like Hasbro knows everything about the psychology of consumers, they know how to keep the ball rolling, and how to trap people in their ecosystem. In the end you can't imagine even trying another game, because you've been conditioned to believe every other game will be like D&D: expensive, time consuming and hard to learn all the ins and out of tons of bloated game books you need to know to create that "optimized build". Anyone who has ever played computer games knows that this is how it works, they keep you coming back for more, just because of the "sunk cost fallacy".
That's why smaller and "simpler" games will never be able to compete with D&D, it's just a completely different philosophy all together.
Great analysis! I saw a Reddit comment the other day that basically confirmed this - they don’t even think the new books are good but they feel a need to buy them.
@@tabletopbro none of us are immune to this. I've been there myself with World of Darkness back in the 90s. Continuing to buy books just because "I had everything up to that point", and wanted to complete my collection. Meaningless since I didn't even play their games anymore, but still I kept buying their releases for a while.
The only difference is that once you have a big company with marketers and psychologists trying to "pray" on these very human faults, it starts to become quite disgusting.
"because you've been conditioned to believe every other game will be like D&D: expensive, time consuming and hard to learn all the ins and out of tons of bloated game books you need to know to create that 'optimized build'"
This. I heard so many times people saying "I don't want to learn another game" or "I don't have time to learn another game, so I will just stick with D&D". Problem is, a lot of other games take you very little time to learn how to play, like there are games that are a page long. But D&D becoming the synonym for TTRPGs does hinder people wanting to dive into other systems because they think it will all be the same.
Rules light systems are not beginner systems, but systems for people who are so experienced with how they think RPGs should run that they can just freestyle it without worrying if they are messing everything up.
@mattd8725 or just don't care if they mess up.
@@screenmonkey Fine, maybe none of them care, and they are just there for free snacks or something.
I honestly don't think this is a problem. You can devolve into endless discussions about the philosophy of running rules light RPGs. I for instance made a 15 page discussion of the Condition moves for the villains in Masks and I only scratched the surface of how to create and run great villains.
the no settings issue is not really a problem for me atlease, because of the simplicity of the rules you can just pick any campaign from any high fantasy rpg and run it in dw :D
I homebrew my own settings but it’s definitely a draw for some people🤷🏻♂️
That does reinforce the message of the video tho does it not? When there's little to no established setting you just pick one from somewhere else or create your own. There's no discussion to be had there, no sharing of information, no social ecosystem to build. The point wasn't really that a game with no setting is worse than one with or that that it's a problem to be overcome in some way, but rather that by having no default setting you're eliminating one aspect that might bring people together to discuss with each other and teach newcomers. Which is a massive part of what drives popularity in the internet age. Doesn't make the game worse, it just inhibits it's ability to grow a larger player-base.
@@LordZeebee There are plenty of major games that are hard-locked into a certain setting, which makes them immediately unattractive to GMs and players who don't want to play someone else's fantasy.
I think one type of content that can work for most rules-light RPGs are character-based build videos, like those that attempt to make Goku or Sora in D&D or Pathfinder. The best part is you don't have to worry about if your Zuko recreation is meta!
MAYBE. But games like OSE don’t have any character options so it might be hard to do
It is rules light, so DMs could just make things up with the party in my opinion, but then again, it repeats the cycle of players having tons of options, except this time provided by the DM.@@tabletopbro
@@tabletopbro You can still show people what they can do with their character. What do you do when you end up with a fighter that sucks at strength but has very good charisma? What can you do when you end up with a character that sucks at everyhting?
That can get people interested, especially when you suggest something they didn't think of/did not dare to ask.
4:45
Old School Essentials has no setting
Dolmenwood: Allow me to introduce myself
(I know it technically not that, but as it uses most of its rules is it pretty close.)
Truuuuuuu
This is honestly something that I feel bad about when I play indie games. Even the communities where the only purpose is to talk about the game there isn't actually that much to talk about.
I think that's a backwards association. It's not quite that complexity -> social infrastructure -> popularity, but more that popularity -> social infrastructure, and that popularity is dictated by market taste. Market taste so far is defined by the "gamer" demographic that's interested in builds and metas, but I think there's a broader demographic of people that could enter the TTRPG space but aren't interested in that. So the ongoing popularity of rules-heavy games to me is a side effect of the gamer demographic's dominance, and will continue to be true to the extent that that's true. If the rules-light revolution successfully spreads (bottlenecked as it is by the existing demographics introducing new players to the hobby via rules-light systems), then that could change. What would be talked about is storytelling tricks, settings, maybe items and magic systems if generic enough.
This is probably the most accurate take if we’re being honest
It isn't just rules lite games. If a game is whole in structure, guidance, and content, you don't need external GM advice or 3rd party content. A game like Burning Wheel is complex but whole enough that it doesn't make sense to make content for it unless it's specific to your table.
I don't think a game needs to be more complicated to have the same dialog that dnd has (expect for rules clarification vids). Usually, a rules light game has a limited number of "build" options. Build options allow players to theory craft character ideas and can interact with the game without actually playing it. Like how magic the gathering players can spend time building a deck. I guess to have the same thing would mean to increase the amount of mix and matching you can do. Let's also not forget that dnd is a huge brand. It's in Walmart and has video games and movies based on the ip. Indy games are far away from that.
there is an classic brazilian RPG that was very popular, it's kinda lite called 3d&T. it was really popular and it got even their own scenario. "Tormenta" used only d6 and inspired on anime, even their D&D like scenario was narrated much more like an anime than a tolkien fantasy, characters where really powerful. and it was built like a videogame somehow. like. it's not a primor of narrative but for begginers was fun that you could just buy abilities, spells etc, don't limit yourself to classes, and since it's not a "narrative" game. people were building characters. choosing abilities, there was some magazines at that time teaching how you could build diferent characters or with new things to choose.
There is something really special about this system that I don't seen often. it's easy to learn but it had the "game" vibe of choosing how your character will be optimized, yes. there are a lot of balance flaws but still a cool example of how a game can be rules ligth and still have a cool list of things to choose and build your own character.
It's funny that you mentioned the time we spend playing TTRPGs compared to the time we don't spend playing TTRPGs. With D&D 3e-5e and PF 1e & 2e, they are hog heaven for theory-crafters and min-maxers. While theory-crafters and min-maxers may not necessarily be focused only on winning, they wouldn't spend the time that they do mastering the game if combat dominance wasn't a significant motivator to them.
Not only that, for these kind of players, rules-mastery is a prerequisite to effective theory-crafting and min-maxing, so I'd imagine that using homebrew and Rule Zero would at least present a record-scratch for their playstyle...which is strange because new rules, mechanics, and options get presented with supplemental material from the publishers. These, in turn, get more legitimacy than a GM's homebrew material just because of...reasons? (Yes, the game developers have a better grasp of their own rules and design, but it's not impossible to learn and expand and *wait for it* make shit up just like they do!)
All of this, and more, leads to a culture of FOMO within the TTRPG hobby, because if you're playing what the majority of consumerist hobbyists are playing, good like finding a group to play a more flexible, rules-light TTRPG.
Well said!
The Simplicity also makes them 'die' faster: nothing to sell people. D&D/Pathfinder has way too many choices, and therefore can make (and sell) more choices. DW could sell classes I guess, but yeah... there's nothing there to sell on. Hell, 2nd Ed AD&D ran out of options at one point, and that's why TSR ended up having to sell to WoTC... if your game is self-contained, there's no future market. I like rules-lite exactly for this reason, there's nothing to deal with external to what you need.... but yeah, they die out because the market dries up.
I wish I could super like this comment because you’re so on the money with it.
Tbh I find it more fun to talk about the game session/campaign you just had with your friends, then some game mechanics.
The current iterations of D&D exist for the same reason fast food restaurants exist. Just because something is prolific doesn’t mean it’s the best (or good). So don’t misinterpret the fact that less fine dining restaurants means they are inferior to fast food - it’s actually just the opposite
Build games are fun to fidle with, talk about, and easy to make content for, but rules light games are fun to play.
They also feel better to run. You don't have a lot of rules to get in the way of your situation - you can just adjudicate and go. It's also easier to plug in homebrew stuff because you have less pieces that are based on other pieces that may fall apart.
True
This is actually a fun video, crunchier games with bigger rule books do make for more content to look into when out of a game session... which is why my ttrpg to watch list is full of videos I'm never going to complete because I'm constantly adding to it. On the otherhand I can crack open Mork Borg and Solitary Defilement and have a fantastically painful evening when my friends can't play with me. I'm also going to start using Mork Borg as a backdoor strategy to get friends to try Forbidden Psalm and into Morderheim and other skirmish games. Well that was a little long winded but TLDR, big games do what I want them to do for me, little games do what I want them to do for me and I'm always a winner by setting expectations. Also great channel take my sub and thumbs up.
Honestly I think having video games like BG3 that included the entirety of said rpg systems does not help a lot, (especially when those games are pretty well)
Perhaps making a visual novel on the rules light systems could help but I think most of all people should record and share their games more. Personally I discovered Pbta games like some months ago with masks and finding out about it was almost as difficult as trying to run it 😅
I only found out about Masks because a friend told me about it. Maybe sharing crazy stories that happen in these obscure games is the move?
Do you know Wonder Bread sells the most bread in America. But people are still going down to bakeries to get the special bread. It’s the same thing here. Brand differentiation is a thing. DND is going for some thing a kitchen sink style fantasy and these other games are going for a different style of fantasy. Rules like games are easy to modify. Easy to write things for. And encourage creativity. I think a specific type of person will enjoy these games. That is their market niche. Somebody else in here mentioned it’s kind of like microbrews versus Budweiser. I would agree with that. Nobody drinks the same beer that I do either on my Block I am the only one who buys it.
Obligatory "first" comment. Also, this is insightful and something I've thought about a lot before. Memes about how 5E and other rules medium rpgs are annoying makes more content than a smooth, well designed game. It's kinda weird how that works.
4:21 what was the Reddit thread you mentioned? Seems like there’s a lot of suggestions on there I’d like to check out for my table:)
While you are slightly right. Yes, there are more videos on CZcams about it, but no, that does not measure the popularity of the game. The two you pointed out, D&D and Pathfinder, just happen to be based on the most popular theme, Fantasy, and are the two biggest companies. Plenty of games out there that have simple systems and a ton of lore (L5R comes to mind) but sadly their target audience is smaller because of the setting. Kind of the same reason system-agnostic games are not as popular as ones that have a setting tied to it. If you would like an example of a medium crunch system that was once massive (Still has a decent following but is nowhere near its 90s one) is Vampire. The TSR Marvel Super Heroes was extremely popular and still has an avid following and its has been out of print since the early 1990s.
Shout out to Vampire. Storyteller system best system ever.
While I 100% agree with you that DnD and Pathfinder has way more material to contribute to an 'out-of-game experience' and the nature of the systems and content releases help with that I feel like the problem with them is self-perpetuating. They're just more popular because they're more popular.
I mostly play Call of Cthulhu and there seems to be a pretty good out of game community for that despite being fairly rules light and I think that's more to do with the legacy of the game and the number of people playing it rather than the nature of the system or the company.
Also, games like Cyberpunk Red and Shadowrun have pretty in-depth rules systems but they lack the out-of-game communities for them because they're just not as popular.
It sucks because as hobbyists if you get into something you find it harder to find other people into it because there's not as much content for it, but at the same time there's not as much content for it because there's not as much content for it.
Your video demonstrates that O.S.R. isn't suitable for mainstream social media which is great because the people who played the original games back in the day weren't suitable for mainstream society, so it's kinda perfect. O.S.R. is basically some weird Norwegian black metal band while modern RPGs are Blink 182.
Gate keeping is fucking lame
@@tabletopbro actually it isn't. In fact as time progresses it begins to be proven time and time again a valid and dare I say valuable tactic.
as someone who dident even know other ttrpg systems existed outside of pf2e and 5e I just binged like 20 of your videos and am converted to a dungeon world lover. Literally everything that annoys me about running those games is fixed with dungeon worlds systems and its not perfect but god damn is it closer to what i actually want to play than either 5e or pf2e ever could be. I have spent ungodly amounts of hours trying to homebrew rules for those systems to essentially make it into what dungeon world already is and i did a much worse job so thank you for opening my eyes
You are quite literally the exact person I started this channel for
Speaking as a D&D-obsessed forever DM in college, I've overnight fallen in love with Mork Borg and Cy_Borg because the classes, world, and gameplay/adventure opportunity coupled with the affordability of it is absolutely amazing. Don't get me wrong I still love D&D, but wow the lighter rpg's are so much more liberating as a DM.
This is an interesting conundrum, rules light means that there's generally little complexity to discuss. However must a rules light system be low on content? Build videos can be simply how you would interpret certain famous characters in that system. Setting videos could likewise be how you interpret certain properties in those settings.
Perhaps in that sense rules light is a blessing since your ability to provide content for a fully realized rules light campaign is MUCH faster than in a rules heavy campaign. Running marvel heroes in powered by the apocalypse. Probably write that ruleset in a couple of days. Writing it for Pathfinder or D&D? Try weeks/months. Play to the strengths of rules light, rules heavy can't compete for speed of content development imo.
I mean the open 3rd party license kinda makes Mork Borg alive though, theres a rich community making expansions, items, sharing lore and dungeons and quests, it kind of owns, theres always something fresh going around
Yeah I goofed there somewhat. Just cause there aren’t constant official updates doesn’t make it any less “alive” and the third party content slaps
From someone that has been trying to move from d20 to PbTA systems... It has being hard, really hard. I'm feeling the mindset is pretty different from those types of systems, and that is super hard to make me (the DM) and my group to get used to it.
To context, I'm DMing a My Hero Academia inspired settings. At first we were playing with Mutants and Masterminds, due to being a d20 system similar to DnD, and we decided to move to Masks: A New Generation due to MnM combat taking an eternity to end, often making no sense of its on rules due to how complicated super hero powers can be, and essentially my group wanting to roleplay more and do more stuff (be less restricted by the system).
... I was about to give examples that things that bother me in PbTA but, I'm giving up to write down my frustrations. Maybe the system is just not for me
Well if you say so. I play mostly Morg Borg, OSE, Black Sword Hack. My DnD books just gather dust.
While it may be that builds and rule-clarifying is a factor, I'm certain that the immense history and legacy of D&D contributes a lot more. You can't fairly compare brand new games like these to a franchise as old and established as D&D.
Not only that, but look at how much money a massive corporation like Hasbro has to throw around for marketing, films, video games, Lego, influencers, etc. It's completely ludicrous to contrast an indie rpg with Literally the richest and most powerful and most profitable rpg in history, and come to the conclusion that the reason the latter is more successful is because nobody cares about rules-lite rpgs. Like, you see how silly that is right?
We also need to be careful in how we define "success". If we define success as "this game makes more money and gets more views and appears in more popular media" then yeah Of Course the behemoth money-making marketing machine that is the D&D Franchise (not just 1 rpg, not just several rpgs over decades, but a whole Franchise) will win that contest.
If we define success relative to each game's audience size and budget and such, you'll find that many smaller and/or rules lite RPGs have been extremely successful, especially recently! Index Card Rpg, Shadowdark, and Dungeon Crawl Classics to name but a few.
Game designers are discouraged enough by the nigh monopoly that WotC has on the industry, and this kind of video only makes that worse, especially for younger people who don't know the history of the industry.
I would very strongly caution you against making this kind of video lightly, you have a responsibility (if not as content creator than as a fellow RPG fan who wants to see the industry grow and improve) to would-be rpg creators watching your video. You wouldn't want to discourage the kid about to bring forth the next huge shift in the rpg landscape, just from a careless (and unfounded) claim about the impossibility of success for a given genre.
This is very true. The other day I wanted to look up information on the style of game known as FKR (arguably the most rules light rpg) and I found a couple blog posts and like 2 CZcams videos. It seemed cool, but there is very little conversation about it.
This is pompous but I had a buddy tell me he was gonna look up dungeon world videos prior to our campaign. I asked him if he saw all my videos. He said yes. I was like, then you have gotten all the content on CZcams that’s available that isn’t an actual play or a review
I play rules light because I’m an adult with a busy adult life and I think that may be the majority of rules lite players. I do think you’re correct for popularity
One possible way rules light systems could get more attention would be if there was more multi-system third party content compatible with both rules heavy and rules light systems. There's a handful of settings that have rules to not only incorporate them into 5e DnD and 2e Pathfinder, but also rules to incorporate them into Mörk Borg
Smart solution!
this was a good take. I do find myself watching Golarion (pf2e) lore quite a bit so i 100% get your point!
Some good points. My goal with my own channel is to raise awareness for other systems, and it breaks my hear when people aren't willing to give a new game a try.
A game being alive happens at the table with our friends - not on youtube with content creators. I have never felt more like an old man yelling at a cloud than I do right now.
Nonsense. The idea that the same DM advice would apply for a game of D&D 5e and say, Mork Borg couldn't be further from the truth
If someone doesn't play 1e AD&D then they are not qualified to be part of this discussion.
For the record you were not on my 2nd monitor but most of the time you might be as I play some random game. You are 100% correct. A game with setting that is created each time a new game is started is kind of hard to talk about. Unless someone wrote a setting for DW to give other DM's a frame work to work under. Thanks for doing the thing!
Thanks buckaroo!
I thought about this topic before and there's a lot of ways to approach it I think.
I think you're right about the social aspect, but the fact of the matter is that Dungeons & Dragons and by extension Pathfinder have been benefiting from a social aspect outside of the games themselves just simply because most people who have told an RPG story have done so through those games. I'm other cases, people have streamed their games with D&D or Pathfinder over the last decade or so (back in 2011 I was listening to a group of people playing 4e D&D and having a great time).
I do agree that as it stands now the nature of the games basically create content farms for anyone who just needs a a quick video to put together. Whether that be a video describing some class option, or a video describing some rules mechanics, or the must sinister video one could make: "How to make your favorite fictional character in D&D" and also by proxy the 5e video where someone tells you how to make a broken character.
There was one D&D CZcamsr I saw make two videos about Worlds Without Number, and they gave up because those videos weren't gaining a lot of views.
I think it was a mistake on their part to approach making videos about the game like that. With the game lacking in content to sit there and farm for CZcams video, the only real way they could make a video about the game would be to play it and then relay the story of the game. Which from my reading, I don't think said CZcamsr ever played WWN, so I think they used their videos as a means for themself to learn the game.
Quite honestly the the only way a lot of these games will ever get even a crumb of acknowledgment is people telling the stories of playing these games, and then relaying them to an audience.
I don't believe this to be outright effective mind you.
I think the reality is that unless someone specifies the system they were playing, from an outsider's perspective it's all Dungeons and Dragons all the way down. And when a majority of games might just be describing fantasy heroes with elves and dwarves and men fighting against monsters and evil villains, it doesn't matter what system you're playing, you're painting the same picture all the same but with different tools.
So in the end of this very long comment, I must admit I don't really have an answer to this conundrum.
I would wager a bet that in an alternate universe where 5th edition D&D failed to gain the traction it did today, or even died, we would just live in a world where 3.5e/PF dominates the RPG landscape with a momentum that will never be stopped.
To make it also more clear, WotC/Hasbro could disappear overnight and 5e would still have dominance in mindshare ten years from now.
That or a version cobbled together from the OneD&D play tests that gets heralded as "the real D&D".
Lots of content does not mean the game is actually good or enjoyable. Some of us play for enjoyment, not to spend time socializing or absorbing content on social media.
Never said it does make it good. Just suggested it might contribute to 5e and P2e being more popular. There’s probably other factors at play, but I don’t think anyone’s considered this one
Speaking of rules-light games, have you tried the beta version of BREAK!! yet?
Have the rules, haven’t had a chance to play it yet🤷🏻♂️
Curious what the thread that pops up that says 'this is the thread that radicalized me' says
Which systems ARE good examples of PbtA? (Exact thread title). The OP points out that every PbtA game is criticized as not being “real PbtA” and asks what is a good example.
Of course every game someone pitched in the thread was met with PbtA hardos calling it a fake PbtA game and not meeting the supreme standards of THEIR PbtA ideal.
Maybe I’ll make a video about it
as someone who came to DnD only after playing other games (both rules lite like PbtA and a bit more heavy like WoD), I've found DnD is mostly best fit (for me) when I want basically most of the game laid out for me. Don't wanna spend a bunch of time on a story? Premade campaigns for that! Want to just punch stuff in the coolest way possible? There's tons of special tricks and spells and feats for that!
This is by no means a dig at DnD, especially because for many it's much more of a sandbox homebrew game anyways, but as someone who often doesn't want to "rules to get in the way of role play," it's nice sometimes to just let the rules do some of the role play for you.
I'm the perpetual DM in my group outside of the DnD game I'm in, and for this DnD game I'm having lots of fun just looking up what others suggest me to do in videos and lore books and all that jazz.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that and I’m glad you’re having a good time with the system.
Don’t let indie rpg snobs (including myself in older videos) tell you any differently
Longtime DM, run DND monthly, built a friend group, started introducing them to other games (space hulk, Mörk Borg, Catan, etc..) people start to discover the flavors they like, and invest in the games they like. Small tight knit discord group.
Picked up Mörk Borg in a weekend of reading, the random nature of the world and its interesting mechanics make it easy to pickup, and its aesthetic makes it a point of entry for a handful of folks. Homebrewed it by week 2 and made our own headcanon and monsters, factions, everything.
Not better than DND, or worse, just another tool in the box. Every game has value, and if rules lite is what gets people started, sign me (and the crew) up.
Well said, and I agree (not just about enjoying Mork Borg cause good gravy that's a great game!)
if your argument stands, then i would imagine Lancer being more of a household name so to speak, and while i think it is notable in the RPG underground, i don't see it breaking out anytime soon. maybe i'm mistaken, maybe there's something else holding Lancer back, but it is a game that is tactically deep, with a lot of character customization options, and deep lore(all of it available for free, even). the videos i found when i looked up Lancer RPG included 2 lore videos, 3 reviews, and a "class guide" to the goblin mech.
Hmmm that is a fair point. Maybe because it’s sci-fi and not fantasy? I truly don’t know
I've been gravitating towards more rules lite OSR games mainly because the characters aren't all but unkillable superheroes in renfair cosplay. Games just aren't that exciting to play when your biggest fear is messing up your characters build instead of the adventure itself. All the "Ultimate Build" videos/articles about nearly every class in 5th ed and PF2 have pretty much soured me on both of them.
Plus, as the GM you'll probably never have to worry about a player showing up to the game with a super long and detailed backstory, especially after their first character dies to a goblin spear to the face. Starting characters shouldn't have a background that can't be summed up in 2-4 sentences, which makes them very easy to tweak when someone has to roll up yet another new character.
Hard agree with pretty much everything you said
5e is oversaturated as far as content goes but we keep eating it up it's mind-blowing
Agree with you about the sheer level of content available out there but there are also strong and active avenues available in spaces such as discord for the more niche communities. Crunchy Wargame style RPG’s have been around for so long that I’m pretty sure that people don’t always realise there is another way to play. To be fair, the crunchy games with ‘rules for everything’ do provide a great crutch for players and GM’s to hold themselves accountable, where as the rules lite / fiction first games require a lot more in the moment creativity away from the character sheets and rulebooks - if someone is not sure what they’re doing this is no doubt a lot harder to get you’re head around.
Fiction first is certainly my preferred way of playing, so much more freedom, as a GM I feel far more able to create consistently exciting games week after week - but as with all these things, it’s down to subjective preference.
I can’t help but feel (hope?) that with the rise of fiction first games on the popular scene, such as Candela Obscura, folk will start to be more open to the fact there is another way of playing that doesn’t require mountains of rulebooks, detailed NPC statblocks and where you can focus more on the exciting moments rather than worrying about if you hit the AC or if your spell is 5ft short of a 15ft cone.
Another cool video. I appreciate you and what you do 👊🏻
Hey! I saw my video!
I would love it if Stockholm kartell released an official book that was all just lore and information about the setting with no new rules.
That would be pretty cool!
I've always looked at rules light as more opened ended for character concepts. I run uncommon TTRPGs for my LGS, Ive ran Root, Avatar Legends, Fallout, and now Mörk Borg, and let me tell you people love when they can use their character concept out of the box without needing to wade through level ups, Fallout being the exception to that, because it's 2d20, plenty of builds for that system.
I think there is more to it then that. Superhero rpgs have deep lore and mechnics, but its hard to find side content for thoes kind of games. I think simplicity helps to an extent.
Unexpectedly seeing myself in a video never gets old
This video is genuinely hilarious because, as someone who closely follows the ttrpg scene and wants to make her own games eventually, I really don't like rules light games, but I also know that i can't go anywhere without 27 new ones spontaneously erupting into existence.
Rules Light Games aren't doomed, just very hyper specific ones are since so many are funded on Kickstarter every three minutes you can just go find a different one to play. You genuinely have the opposite of an issue.
For people like me who love a depth of rules, people don't really make new games for me anymore. Everyone relentlessly chases the rules light trend and leaves us behind.
Maybe I’m just too balls deep in the rules lite space to notice (I prefer them) but that’s a really interesting perspective that I haven’t noticed.
You’re totally right though there are a million OSR inspired, or PbtA games coming out every second and the last more complex game I can think of that came out was Shadow of the Weird Wizard
So the premise is that, by way of analogy, the business plan for every tech company in the world should be "we're going to be the next Apple"? I dunno man.
But those of us who don't care about 130 tedious subclasses that we will never play, poorly written fluff, endless playbook and "how to build the ultimate barbarian / monk" vids.
We enjoy the elegance and "fuck that shit, let's play" speed of rules light.
No more 3 hours resolving half a minute of combat, and wishing you were somewhere else, doing something fun.
I agree. Like I said in the video, I prefer rules light systems. I’m just postulating reasons D&D and Pathfinder are more popular than the seamless stuff I like
On the other hand, there are *tons* of free or cheap and high quality content for PbtA and OSR games that you can pick up everywhere and use with almost any system you like. One my favorite examples is "Trillema Adventures", which is insanely good. It has a Dungeon World bestiary (and a DnD 5e bestiary too), but at its core it's system agnostic and can be easily adapted to any OSR system. The amount of smaller or larger ready-to-play dungeons adaptable directly for any OSR (Mork Borg or Old School Essentials) popping up regularly on Humble Bundle or Bundle of Holding is insane. And you can have a whole bundle for a price of one stupid DnD book containing 1/5 of a boring campaign...
Totally! I’m a big fan of small indie content like that
People will make more videos on the rules light RPG's, it will just take time. A large amount of Dungeons and Dragons 5e material on CZcams is the same stuff.
Whaaaaat? You mean the fifteen videos calling the ranger trash aren’t different from each other?🤪
@@tabletopbro lol. You know it.
In Hungary, there is a huge project based on Mörk Borg. They made their first chapter and it’s playable. Admins are great and the gameplay itself is very unique too. Our party is just calling it hikeborg 😂
Oh really does it have a name yet and are you on the Mork Borg discord? I love all things Mork Borg and also DCC 👌🏻
@@yagsipcc287 The Blood Ruins
Hope I will see you there
Rules lite games have been a boon for RPG soloists.
That’s what the people are saying. Especially Ironsworn
Hi bro, inspired by your vids I currently try to get into DW. I planned to use it to play in the world of The Witcher. I understand that this might not be fully in the spirit of the game, since world and background have been adopted from existing sources but it makes things much easier to my players and me coming from traditional systems to get into the fiction. There is only one problem: i have to convert the entire Witcher world into DW: locations, monsters, spells, and character classes (foremost the Witchers) & co. I tried to find sources in the internet but there was only little available. To make a long story short: i think that it would raise the popularity of DW if the community could provide source materials - playbooks, monsters, etc. - for popular fantasy settings such as The Witcher, Wheel of Time, or Lord of the Ring.
You wanna play in the Witcher world which is objectively the best fantasy world ever made in the history of mankind, so you’re excused for breaking convention😂
Il disagree. The reason why DnD is so popular it really was the first big game and was one of only a handful of games for a long time people could get access toz when it would go to different countries it was often the first game. As far as world building stuff tbh every single person I know who does or ever has played any level of TTRPG they all built their ow. World sometimes would take ideas abd use them but that's it outside of maybe the first coupple of games where everyone is leaning to play. I played 4th ed, 3.5, pathfinder first edition and many more random games often for years at a timeonce to twice a week (when we were tounger and had time) not because they were the best but because its what we had access to . I am now into OSR games and I feel better play ling thrm even alone with no issues. Do the same things we used to do with streamlined (not dumbed down) rules, games now have over complex rules fot no reason. Even when we would all play we would just end up not using many tules and apply or own rules or just use rules from a different part of the books that are similar. I am working on several start up games one for a game called "across a thousand desd planets" its an Amazing game by Blackoatg games very solo and multi player friendlu simple enough vut very deep in what it allows you to do and all the tools and chart's done from cresting worlds, environments, noc, "monsters" hooks and of course can add yourbown. I am making a game to show my girlfriend how yo play to see if she likes it. Going to have pre made monsters, events and a simple enough ship drawn chart (doing desd space themed game) simple to do and deep as you want. Also the fact manybof these games have pretty easy to add other systems in or just add other books in and change stats a bit for same effect if you want to do campaigns woth little prep 🙂
Rules Light RPGs may never take over the market lead, but neither are they doomed. There will always be a market for people who actually want to play the game, rather than just talk about how to make the game playable.
Based take
Hey who's that at 0:44!
Nice i appreciate you used the french character sheet for morg borg. Merci
Plus OSE or dungeon world does not need a lot of contents on CZcams. Cause it's simple and the game is created at the table. On the contrary D&D is complicated and needs a lot of content to be played. So don't worry. I play a kind of World of dungeon/city of mist, i don't need content, eveything is fine. But when I personaly want ti watch youtube, i like videos about D&D build, home rules, or mechanics from other RPGs
The hobby of making or finding the perfect game system, character build, or adventure is the easiest way to go solo. To actually play a session with others that is fun and fast, simple is the way to go!
But if you are reading this right now, it's because you aren't playing, so what else is there to do!
It feels good to build
It feels good to play the class everyone says is trash and prove it can be good
I'll take Mörk Borg over DnD any day of the week. My personal taste. I'd much rathe support companies like Free League and Infinite Black/Creature Creation.
Mork Borg is such a blast
My girlfriend isn't even a gamer, and she finds your content entertaining listening to it from the other side of the room.
Sure there are tons of videos out there on how to be a better optimizer as a player, but the missing niche is how to be a better ttrpger outside of mechanics. And rules light systems require players to learn how to roleplay without using rules as a crutch in order to have fun.
You're conflating 'Popularity' with 'how much people make youtube videos about it'. They ain't the same. And really, is popularity the only thing you're thinking about when looking at a game? Addiitionally, you're ignoring the effect actual plays had on D&D (CR for example). I think you've missed the point, I'm afraid. Gotta say, I disagree with ya...
D&D has always had and will always have the most stuff. And if that's taught us anything, it's that Quantity, no matter how overwhelming, is NEVER an adequate substitute for Quality. And no matter how popular it is, Monopoly isn't the only game in town. And for plenty of people, the name brand isn't good enough. That's why healthy markets are competitive ones. There will always be room for both big and small, or it's game over, man. Game over.
Well said!
Hasbro and Watzi are trying their damnedest to kill off their good will as fast as possible.
Don't worry, you're not on my 2nd monitor. I'm just alt-tabbed away from youtube to get stuff done while I listen. =P
I think the premise is flawed hence the analysis is flawed.
Indie games aren’t trying to beat Hasbro and for the most part aren’t trying to create one system to be the be the “one” game to rule them all
I think Free League is the best example of this , though Morphius does a great job as well (though I’d say they’re more publishers than creators)
I started playing,and mainly GMing in 1987, when West End Games came out with Star Wars D6 RPG. I only had a small group (3 players) that only wanted me to GM Star Wars. I then found 3 anime Mecha RPGs. Heavy Gear and Jovin Chronicles (from Dream Pod 9) and Mekton Z(from the publisher who makes Cyberpunk) All these games only used one die,Star Wars, Heavy Gear and Jovin Chronicles used D6, and Mekton Z used D10. All also where skill focused games. No Class,or Levels. When my group got way to busy with life, I tried to find others who would want to play. Couldn't find a single person. D&D/D20 was the only game/system anyone wanted to play. When the OGL scandal happened. I tried to see if I could find someone to play those games. Nope, now Pathfinder,or Starfinder was the only games anyone wanted to play. For me, it's more then what information videos you can find on CZcams. It's that D20 is the only system 99.9% of the RPG community wants to play.
good video, turn the BGM down a little next time though! lol
Thanks for the feedback!
A lot of the popularity also has to do with other intangibles such as networking, inertia, nostalgia, and participating in a shared lifestyle community with a shared language.
This is deeply flawed logic. OSR communities are extremely active. You say that something like OSE doesn't get an update so there aren't videos about it, but have you seem a channel like Questing Beast? The OSR games are largely compatible so ideas that come out in a new system can be ported to something like OSE. Also, OSE and Mork Borg have tons of new content coming out for them. I don't think OSR will be mainstream anytime soon, but the points in this video are way off the mark for anyone in the scene.
Because "Rules Light" games are created by designers that have a lack of time and resources.
It's amazing that in 2024, we still haven't found ways to make "Rules Light" RPGs which simultaneously offer loads of Character options and Setting content.
Character creation and leveling for these games tends to be short and meh.
So, that gives us the the possibility of building a rules-median ruleset with mechanics people are used to from TTRPGS? So, that means a D&D 3/3.5 focus, or something like a pared-down GURPS, like SPECIAL? Reinvent one of those in a way that feels good, and you'll be sorted, I guess?
I mean, one can explain Rules Light / OSR in just one phrase.
"It's about DIY."
...
That's it, thanks for watching, thanks for reading, like & subscribe, press the bell thing, leave a comment.
PS. Yea, that's truly "it", the reason, the difference, and all the "why's".
Big major TTRPG are built by big major companies expecting you to pay $50 for a 400 page rulebook, and keep buying whole lot of expansions and DLCs, $10 each, at least once a year. The next similar thing is, I don't know, an IPhone. A Macbook. The Balanciaga or Dolce & Gabana. The "THINGS", to buy, to review, to analyze, to criticize, to react to. Serious business.
DIY? No one cares how you painted your t-shirt or built your PC. The only people who might care is your small local community. And that's it. You get freedom of art and self-expression, a chance to have it your own way, to realize your own unique vision... in a price of no one giving a flying duck about it.
Big TTRPG is a piss-drink you get in a pub. And you can settle not just one video, whole CZcams career, on how piss in local/global pubs suck, and why it matters, and how it can be fixed, yata-yata. More talk + more overthinking = more content.
Rules Light / OSR? It's your own crafted "brand", that is perfectly suited for your own taste, and taste of your buds. The world may go duck itself, while you and your mates enjoy the brew. This experience is not to share, not to explain or brag about. It's there to live it, and to feel it with your best ones.
In what galaxy is OSE "Rules-lite"? It plays so differently from modern D&D, the people who only care about shallow build-crafting would struggle to wrap their head around it. Only being able to cast a spell once per day, calling out what you're casting at the beginning of the round and an enemy being able to interrupt it since the spell only goes off at the end of the round, even rerolling initiative every round.
Well he is 20 nothing years old so there is that - no real experience with other systems. I think he needs to play BG3 online as he has no history with tabletop rpg's other than 5e.. Or how ridiculous it is for someone to go from their death bed to being bonus action healed to 1hp and fighting again like Conan (that's an 80s movie for what is probably most of his audience..).
Is your stated problem a real “problem”? Probably. Rules-light system don’t provide a whole lot to talk about mechanics-wise, and that’s not going to change as that is the nature of a rules-light system. Lore (why do I hate that word so much?) is a different matter. There is nothing inherent to a rules-light game that prohibits a large, expansive setting with lots of interesting conversation kibble. So why aren’t there a lot of deep, rich settings for our favorite light-weight games? Is it that the designers were intrinsically more wrapped up in designing there system than they were a setting? Or is that rules-light games lend themselves so well to the personal campaign vision of the GM (and players) that the people who play them aren’t interested in an “official” campaign setting? Probably a mix of both of these. Is there a fix though? That’s much harder to say. I am very interested though in seeing how the success of Gavin Norman’s “Dolmenwood” Kickstarter plays out with regards to spurring further interest in OSE. It’s very much the rich, unique setting that provides a lot of material for fans to discuss; and the overwhelming success of the Kickstarter just about guarantees that Gavin will follow it up with more material to enhance the world.
This is a great comment, thank you for leaving it! There’s probably other factors that lead to these games not being as popular, but I think the out of game discussion is important!
I agree we should all be viewing dolemwood’s career with great interest
DnD is the 400 pound Gorilla in the room, and all that marketing budget, promotions and shop displays etc go a long way to attracting people into the hobby. Regardless if one likes or dislikes WotC, I hope DnD continues to brings people into the RGP hobby.
Well said
There are some really entertaining Actual Play videos for Morg Borg. But they are about 2 years old now. The rules lite community is just very small. Or maybe people doing rules lite are playing games instead of making videos. For OSE you can just run any old setting. There's a lot of B/X and 1e videos going over the old D&D settings. There's a whole series on Mystara and a website with thousands of pages of material and about a hundred world maps. And OSE can run old Forgotten Realms stuff really well.
Pathfinder builds are kind of a nightmare, we had a party where 2 out of the 6 characters did almost 100% of the damage in battles. The DM made it work and it was still a lot of fun, and we met once a week for THREE years.
Pulled in by the clickbait, ended up agreeing with you. Well played!
Thanks!
For one of my groups, it’s as simple as not wanting to get too deep into another rules system (even if lite). 5e is simpler compared to older editions and PF2e, more forgiving too, but it’s been baked in that required commitment and a few years of play.
That being said, the message of your video is not the same as your title. Clickbait title that the games are doomed to fail does not help their cause to still be tried out and potentially gain popularity. My group is still open to trying Mork Borg sometime.