Admiral Thrawn and Spock discuss conquest, peace and diplomacy!
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- čas přidán 23. 05. 2024
- #starwars #artificialintelligence #theoldrepublic
This strikes at the key diffs between ST and SW heh, thoughts?
Elevenlabs speech synthesis was used for this video:
Thrawn (Marc Thompson)
Spock (Leonard Nimoy)
Music used:
Coruscant the Republic
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Honestly, what do you think Thrawn's stance on slavery is in the empire? A key complaint about his animated portrayal is that he seems too loyal even though we know his motivations.
I think Thrawn would only really approve of slavery if there was no other option for a certain race, otherwise he would try to learn a races culture to see if he can earn that races loyalty. If he has no choice but to use slavery then he'll use it but that doesn't mean he has to like it.
I feel that he would approve enslavement for a higher motive. In reality, Mith'thrawn'nurdoo would prefer to reach an understanding. If he can't well...
Quite a good point, and he himself did seem to be uncomfortable with that "Faustian deal" he had made for his people; and his boss on Coruscant himself made an even *more* "Faustian deal" when he basically accepted personal vassalship on his part to the leadership of the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium on L'wekk itself, thus making *them* the defacto government of the entire empire he was running, via him, and he himself had to toe the line that a former subject of his: Dev Sibwarra, set for him, or risk the complete demise of his state by these aliens that really do stand in for Hell itself- as shown by their own method of enslavement: first capture, *then* kill, and only *then* enslave; and that kid was a "deathscort" at age *15* to boot: that's going to do severe damage to his mind and soul: by taking part in the murders and enslavements of all manner of subjects of those literal alien monsters!
Plus as bad as Palpatine's empire is: the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium is at least a thousand times worse, morally-speaking, in all dimensions thereof!
@@vallettapetracyneran8587 Thrawn: The Wookies have known to be... difficult to work with. Still, capturing them from the deep jungles of Kashykk may prove more trouble than it is worth.
@@reubzdubz Then maybe you should have objected when you found out what that transport was carrying. But then where would your ambition be now, Admiral. No you choose silence. I had thought better of you Mitth'raw'nuruodo.
I love how in the discussion, they both accepted that their views and logic were based on their own respective home galaxies and how different their peoples and histories are. That these historically divergent homes are part of the foundation of their logic on diplomacy and war. I enjoy these videos as both sides present their stances and we the viewers get to decide what to take, what to reject, what to question and even what to synth together with their own world view. Also I think Thrawn's animated stance on slavery is a little too accepting. I like to think that a man of Thrawn's character would be able to use logic to find a better way to grow Imperial might without the people paying the cost thru oppression, slavery and fear in order to help the Chiss. A logical reformer rather then a system breaker within the Empire. Tho with the likes of Sidious and Vader, it so much easier said then done.
Thrawn is probably the only person in the Empire that I feel could truly sit down and talk like this.
I think the Empire should absolutely have been completely dismantled, but Thrawn as an individual could conceivably have been convinced to take a role as a senator representing the Chiss or defense chief on the New Republic and be of some legitimate benefit, provided he was properly to abandon fascism
I could listen to theses tow for hours on end great work 😎😎😎😎😎😎
Spock is a delight for good reason!
These men're doing this analysis the right way; also from Palpatine's perspective, it does kind of behoove him to allow his own 'field marshals" operational freedom to work, and from Thrawn's perspective: by acting as a consumate gentleman: you get a load of a lot more resources than you ever would by being a bullying brute frankly.
If on the *throne* of Romulus in Ki Baratan and I ran across *this* discussion, I'd say "I want these guys, if not them, then men who think as they do: that's *precisely* the reasoning I need for my frontier footmen operating far from base: these guys know how to hold a position without sufficient men to do so; and do it marvelously!
I love these rational discussions on all manner of topics!
“The illogic of waste. Time, lives, potential. I submit that your Empire is illogical because it cannot endure. I submit that *you* are illogical to be a willing part of it.”
Honestly I think that a major statement about the galaxy’s society, a good way to follow up on that is warhammer 40k’s roboute gulliman of the imperium of man
I'd have to give Spock the win on the debate. Mostly for pointing the flaw in Thrawn's line of thinking. For Thrawn makes the claim that "governments change and then resist the Empire." And that does happen... but within Star Wars' lore it happens because of the very policies Thrawn supports and implements. By pointing that out... Spock wins.
Thawn's only real counter is that "there could be bigger and more militant enemies out there." And true, Spock wasn't there for the Borg or the Dominion, but that doesn't remove the fact that the Federation has had wars even before Spock. And while the Federation might not have the raw "power," Spock knows they have the engineering, scientific, and problem-solving skills to deal with things that they can't overpower. And his points on the Federation's diplomatic abilities would provide for a means to either create alliances when needed or coordinate with others against a more militant power once the alliance is there, and thus the Federation would not have to rely on militaristic control.
Don't forget that while hyperspace is faster, warp allows you to go anywhere. I could see the federation easily reverse engineering the hyperdrive and using it for fast travel then using warp to get into a strategic position and wiping out key targets.
@@gdragonlord749 - That's a different argument, though... and gets a bit away from the purpose of any debate between Spock and Thrawn.
@@SamuelJamesNary Fair. I just said it because most people don't know how hyperspace works so I thought I would give an example of how things could play out. Not trying to be a smart butt either. I'm just a nerd who likes both franchises.
@@gdragonlord749 I think it's more interesting to compare philosophies of two different sci-fi galaxies than technologies, as one could be unfairly ahead of the other.
@@alduintheanti-dragonborn that's fair. I did like Thrawn because he made due with what he had to make due with vs. what his full armorment could accomplish. Basically how he was tactical and found weakness by studying other cultures.
Spock needs to be a bit louder. I can barely hear him compared to Thrawn.
I do wonder what Thrawn and his Empire of the Hand would make of the Star Trek Galaxy's most dangerous species, the Borg? I think Thrawn would find them fascinating, and ultimately as dangerous as the Yuuzhan Vong and respond accordingly. Considering the Federation's track record against individual cubes, it isn't that great. In comparison, the Federation does have technology, transporters especially, and far more technical prowess compared to the Star Wars Galaxy -- there's little fear of a Death Star if you can beam a proton torpedo right into its reactor core -- *if*, as Thrawn states, they'd have the stomach for total war. Though the Dominion War did prove when forced to, the Federation will fight with surprising ferocity, and its ability to convince even former enemies to come to its aid is unmatched.
Transporters generally don't work through shields. Now whether they could get through Star Wars shielding is a complete unknown. And if the Empire is unaware of transporter technology then that gives the Federation a distinct advantage. If the Empire is aware and transporters can't get through Star Wars shielding, then that puts them on more equal footing.
Picard and Rasczak. Star Trek vs Starship Troopers. Liberalism vs Libertarianism.
Star Trek vs. Starship Troopers would NOT be "liberalism vis. libertarianism."
Starship Troopers was written to be a parody of a Fascist society, where all is ultimately owed to the State, run by the "veterans." The system of "crime and punishment" is also heavily geared to favor the prosecution with limited opportunities for defense against any charge, which tramples on individual rights. None of this is something seen in Libertarian philosophy. Leaders from Starship Troopers would likely argue that just about any Starfleet captain does not go far enough to hold power...
@@SamuelJamesNary You have no clue what the original book was about. Hell not even Vanhovan read the book instead pawning that off on the guy who wrote the script. Vanhovan is an idiot who confuses ‘Militarism’ for ‘Fascism’. The Terran Federation is a Civilian Republic, inspired by the Roman Republic, where everyone has the Right to earn their Citizenship even if they are blind, deaf and have no limbs so long as they can understand the Oath. It is a system that arose in response to Liberalism’s failure to establish law and order, while also protecting people’s Civil Liberties. Starship Troopers portrays a society protecting itself from a Race that evolved to be the ideal Communists: the Bugs. The Bugs cannot comprehend the ‘I’, they only comprehend the ‘We’ and the ‘Us’. When a Bug is born it immediately knows what its job is. Every 1,000,000,000 bugs killed for 1 human is a net victory for the Bugs. The world Starship Troopers depicts is a realistic middle ground between Star Trek and Dune. As Star Trek is unrealistic, and Dune is something we want to avoid. Starship Troopers Libertarian Utopia is the only alternative.
@@Bluesonofman - Ancient Rome was never a "libertarian" state, not even when it was a Republic. It may have been more liberal than the monarchy it replaced... but it wasn't libertarian. And anything that is being propped up by militarism is NOT libertarian, either... as the military is a STATE run enterprise.
@@SamuelJamesNary Just read the damn book
Uh, regarding Vulcan history, I could easily see a similar discussion between Surak and Satask on the issue of how to respond to the dangers involved, weirdly enough, the first ruler of the Romulan Star Empire was actually Surak's college student and liked his ideas- a LOT... they simply had a similar falling out over how to respond to terrorists as these two men are dealing with.
I love these intellectual discussions. Sometimes more preferable than a war scenario.
Video we needed to see
I would like Grand Admiral Thrawn and Brainiac to meet to discuss their philosophies, ideologies, and their views on whati s logical and what isn't.
Thrawn will probably hate and detest Brainic
It matters not whether a population has the stomach for war. If pushed to the brink where there is no better possible alternative, any group will fight to the bitter end if necessary. Conflict is inevitable when operating through subjugation and oppression.
'any group will fight to the bitter end if necessary' history shows you are wrong. fighting to the bitter end is a historical anomaly.
very good
The issue is Star Trek is supposed to be a very optimistic view of the future. Star Wars has no such premise for every event. When preparing for an existential threat, Thrawn's strategy and tactics work best. This is especially true because he opens with a devastating shot. This effectively illustrates resistance is futile and cooperation is the only path to life.
You could actually make this a series between these two with the way they respectfully debate one another.
Thrawn and Spock vs the Universe?
@@reubzdubz DEW IT!
Very cool stuff, but the music is a bit loud and makes the dialogue difficult to hear.
I'll take note of that. Thanks.
Regarding these states' operating protocols: Spock would admit he knows this operating procedure all too well in fact: it resembles very closely his own "sundered cousins" operating protocols for their own "empire", a people known as the "Romulans" though those guys're way nastier and operate with far better technology than the Empire could imagine or use; and are overtly psychopathic in their foreign affairs: paranoia and psychopathy do go hand-in-hand a whole lot more frequently than most people imagine, and the root cause is simple: a kind of naturalism whereby you have to be hard to survive- and hard they are: the journey across the stars they undertook made them that exact way to a T alright.
The result is a faction of paranoid vulcan psychopaths who readily use cloaking technology and basically fire miniature *stars* into their targets doing horrendous damage at a moment's notice just to make a point as often as not!
Star Wars: NOOOOOOOOOoooo! (followed by generations of oppression, tyranny, rebellion, war)
Star Trek: KHAAAAAAAAAN! (followed by a couple starships scrapping it out in a nebula)
I now understand why Captain Kirk said you were a nerd.
Now talk to Optimus Prime
I will note this down
Would be interesting to see what Vulcan reaction to another blue skinned alien after Andorian
And what in Thrawn mind heard Andorian.... will he think planet of Andor?
Chiss and Andorian culture are militaristic. Would be interesting.