Dodge Patent Prototype Rolling Block Rifle
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William Dodge and his brother were inventors in Washington DC who in the 1870s patented a bunch of different improvements to the Remington Rolling Block, among other guns. This particular one I cannot identify with a specific patent, but to my eye it is a way to give the Rolling Block system a safe way to be carried with a loaded chamber. Using Dodge's patent system here, the hammer can be lowered on a loaded chamber in a way that securely locks the hammer from falling and locks the breech from opening. This ensures that the action isn't accidentally opened while carrying the gun. To fire, one need only cock the hammer back slightly and it is ready to use.
Despite there being no Dodge marking son this example, I am pretty confident that it is form the Dodge brothers because another example of the same system is in the Smithsonian collection attributed to Dodge - and Dodge sold his own gun collection to that museum in the early 20th century. It would stand to reason that they would have properly identified it.
That said, this system was never put into production. The US Army did experiment with a similar sort of half-cock safety on the Rolling Block carbines, but not of this design.
Update: It has been pointed out to me that the specific patent for this system is US Patent 113408A (patents.google.com/patent/US1.... It was specifically intended to keep the breechblock from opening in case of a cartridge discharging when the breech was closed (such as in case of the firing pin being jammed forward by something).
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Guns like this, where Ian mentions about how its safety system wouldn't be considered acceptable today, but it was pretty good for its time, make me wonder about the history of safety mechanisms.
That's a very short history...
1) "It's a gun. People will handle it safely, I'm sure of it."
2) "Well... Ok... I guess we could design something, after all, accidents happen am I right?"
3) "For the last time, Steven, do not... Jesus fu**ing Christ, people are DUMB!"
4) "OK, at this point, screw you all! None of you get nothing! Not even a plastik spoon!!"
@@Kremit_the_Forg plse add 3a) - 'Alec, are you sure?'
@@Simon_Nonymous That's something that usually will solve itself. If you do it wrong you'll either learn from the experience or you'd get a casket.
Quite. " Remember, Mr Safety Catch is our friend". (Vimes to Detritus for lovers of the classics.)
How was that even a safety?.. didn't see what happened if you close breach.. seems like it would just allow the hammer to fall!! What am i missing.. he only tried to open in safe..
I've never been able to grasp how a rolling block works before this explanation: Now I know it's just an angry Ven diagram. Thanks Gun Jesus!
I always thought Ven diagrams looked cross.
..."an angry Venn Diagram.." WOW!!!
.
Today we might call it a "PacMan" action
i have a Remington 20 gauge rolling block from 1874. It was my great-grand daddy's, grand dad, and mom's gun. Love it!
This just shows that even back then people wanted to improve the safety of Remingtons.
Tbh I wouldn't consider Dodge the best at safety either
These rolling blocks are always slick. Quite a simple design but elegant
The rolling block is a really robust, simple way to ensure that the breech is closed and stays that way until after the hammer hits the firing pin.
Definitely my favorite single shot rifle design!
The rolling block is indeed a nice system. It is simple, robust and fast, there is a reason why it was kept around so long.
That patina is awesome. The wood almost looks plastic at this point.
My thoughts exactly. Patina looks almost fake to be honest. Like that fake vintage shit what is made in India.
That "yellow" colouration on the rough-sanded metalwork looks a LOT like linseed oil residue. This piece of historic exotica looks like it spent some time in someone's barn, getting an occasional slather of Linseed to protect the wood.
@@bruceinoz8002 still makes it super cool.
When you pull the trigger, the bullet gets out of Dodge.
It sure does get the hell out of dodge!
You're a funny man, have a thumbs up
You have to leave now. Lol
MOPAR OR NO GUN! DOES IT GOT A HEMI CUMMINS? HELL YEAH BORTHER!
The machine work always blows my mind. The fit between parts is incredible
Ian, my bud and I noticed your likeness being used on video game mods under "Gun Jesus" LOL You and Skallagrim have made it firmly into the video game modding community as beloved characters. :)
Listening to your words and careful explanations of all these differing firearms, it strikes me how incredibly honest you are. Ever so often I may not agree with an evaluation of this or that, but that's okay! Because one other thing I have noticed is your ability to admit it in the rare times you see you are or have been wrong. I send you my respects and I thank you for your fascinating history and knowledge as well as your incredible ability to communicate what you learn/know on such a huge range of weapons! You are a treasure.
God bless all here.
I was going to say that it needed a half cocked position but it looks like it got one. Quite an elegant one. Cheers for the vid.
The safety mechanism explanation is plausible, but isn't another possible explanation that without that "stirrup", if you shock the gun (eg drop it on its butt) the cartridge might ride backwards and come out of battery - pushing the breech lock back. With that spring-loaded piece, it looks like if you are not actively pulling back the thumb lever to open the breech, it's locked so that no amount of jostling will open it.
Elegant. At least they didn't stick a crossbolt safety in it.
I just Want to say thank You Ian, hope you have a wonderful day.
Loving Forgotten Weapons.
Can't wait for this years Gun Jesus Christmas Special!
Going to be hard to beat the G11 Xmas video
Thanks, Ian. I always appreciate the videos on rolling blocks and trapdoors.
Same. I have a reproduction Officer’s Model Springfield M1873, and when I got it I was hoping to find a rolling block. Still hope to get one as well, love both the actions.
Thank you , Ian .
This one made me think of the phrase ‘Don’t go off half cocked’; even though I didn’t watch the whole video yet. Really cool and interesting Ian, thank you!
Half cocked comes from flintlocks.
I'm just curious how much force would be required to trip the catch, like a worst case drop directly on it. And if so, would the hammer be reset or drop?
Yeah, like if you bump it "closed" instead of trying to open it, would it let the hammer fall from that position?
I agree. I would have liked to have seen some force put on the lever pushing it forward. If you look at the front edge of a Springfield rolling block hammer piece the underside curves back to make that edge a point rather than a flat edge, so it likely the notches on the safety lever are angled in such a way as to cause the hammer piece to wedge in place, which would require the lever to force the hammer back before it was released.
I'm thinking the same thing. I watched a vid where one the military style safety misfired, he then opened the breach but as soon as he closed it again the hammer fell and gun went off. I prefer to just leave the breach open until it's time to fire, then you know what's in the chamber or not.
@@wmansir While I agree it would be interesting to see what happened, it's a hundred and fifty years old and a one of a kind. Better to treat it gently, all things considered.
Judging from what we see at 08:47, I think it would be near impossible to bump this out of position. The hammer spring is putting a ~90 degree corner of the hammer piece into a 90 degree notch on the catch. To me it looks like the locking piece would have to overcome the force of the hammer spring, but from a mechanical disadvantage. The force required to do that would probably deform or shear off some part of this mechanism.
Awesome thanks for the great work
Wow, that's a really neat gun and a really neat safety system!
It would never be acceptable today, but hey, back then, if it worked, it worked.
Always wanted to see one of their guns on here sweet
My neighbor has a rolling block rifle. Its always a treat when he brings it out and we get to fire it.
Wow! It's remarkable that such a marvelous design as the rolling block could be improved so simply. Dodge was definitely thinking outside the box.
Thank's for the program! 🍻🇫🇮
The 1870 de-cocking feature.
My guess is that this was going to be sold as a "safety hammer" for existing rolling blocks they may have run into issues making drop in components this early tho
Could also be there to keep a stuck firing pin from firing the round when the block was slammed shut.
This is an early one, without a firing pin retractor.
The more I learn about 19th century firearms, the more I start to believe there were A LOT more accidental discharges on average than today. Then again, with the consistency of ammunition it all evens out.
I agree with Ian that this isn't the best modification. Definitely dodgy...
Dodge leg, Glock leg,,,
Booooo
@@leapoffaith20 Why are you booing him? He's right.
@@user-yf4jx6te2b Bad puns deserve a "boo".
Really amazing
Thank you
I have one of these. chambered in 50/70 and i actually used to carry it loaded all the time when i went hunting, never had a discharge and never worried about having one
I would love to see a restore version they are so beautiful
For some of these antique guns I cringe when Ian takes them apart. Thankfully he's an expert and never breaks them.
Ian has said on videos before that he's not going to take (video subject gun) apart because he's afraid to hurt it.
He has an excellent reputation around museums for that.
The noise it makes when it is being cocked, Is like the clock on Grandma's mantle piece!!
I noticed that the barrel bands have crowns on them. Maybe this was an aquired, modified rolling block. I have one of the Safety model rolling blocks used by the New York militia. Having to pull the hammer back a second time can be a PITA. If you forget, you end up squeezing the hell out of it. As a side note, I once saw a safety model listed that when the breach block was closed, the hammer fell and fired. Something I always keep in mind when shooting mine.
I also noticed the crowns. They look very similar to crowns I've seen on Belgian proof marks, and many rolling blocks were made in Belgium under licence and/or on Remington made receivers. Brief googling finds the same crowns on the barrel bands on at least one Argentine military Rolling Block with a Belgian proof marked barrel.
Wtf?
Slight update, I did some more googling. Those crowns may also be found on the barrel bands of Belgian made or Belgian rebarreled Egyptian contract rolling blocks.
It's pretty clear that at least the barrel bands are Belgian, and likely somewhat later than the 1860's. Of course they might not be original to the gun.
Any safety requiring pulling the trigger makes hair stand up :D
Why, what could possibly go wrong? :P
Weirdly strange? Strangely Weird? Odd and interesting, IMHO. Thanks, Ian!
System needs a transfer bar system, or other means to put the FP out of reach of the hammer, to be really clever.
Nice simple idea.
It's a gun for the optimistic ones - pulling the trigger without having the breach locked properly.
One day guns will have boxes that holds multiple ammos that feed directly into the receiver.
1879 is the Lee patent date for the Detachable Box Magazine.
@@ScottKenny1978 James Paris Lee had his hands in on a few designs.
@@lancesoterion435 I have a plan for a "Maxim-Lee Model 1894 Self-loading Cavalry Carbine".
Uses a Fightlight SCR lower with walnut buttstock, and a PWS piston upper. No Picatinny rails, just some old school sights. I just need to find a nice way to do the handguards in wood. Gonna put the Lee patent for the magazine on the upper, as well as the Maxim patent for a gas operated firearm on it. Planning on using either 6.5 Grendel or .300BLK.
Just to really screw with the antis and Fudds.😈😈😈
Interesting system.
Am I the only one who heard Mark Novak saying, "When does lack of maintenance become patina?"
when the value of the item exceeds 10k
So simple but so ingenius
From the explanation, one can make the guess that the big crack in the styrup is due to the gun having been put into the "Dodge" safety position, without a user being aware of it, and the user then forced on the styrup backwards, thinking wrongly that it was abnormally jammed. Does that make sense?
When I read the video title I thought it was a rifle that dodged a patent by changing something minor
I kinda wish that there could be a series like the Bergmann era but for rolling blocks.
While these rifles may appear simple, from a manufacturing standpoint that breech lever is a far more complex part to make than most of the other parts in that rifle.
A cast part would not hold up and to forge it shaped like that probably took enough head scratching to make a dozen men go bald. Once forged you then have to figure out how to hold such an unusual shape to be able to machine it accurately in a process that is efficient and repeatable.
I'd be interested to know if they then heat treated these parts? That's a whole different bag of tricks to master on a part such as this that has thin and thick sections that heat up and cool down at different rates without measures put in place to balance out the differences.
Practice and a lot of trial and error
Another step in learning a bit more of what not to do!
Are these the Dodge Bros. of Automobile fame?
No, they are not.
Would love to see a review of aircraft weapons. From the main armament like the Hispano cannons to the weapons used for aerial combat during WW1 dogfights.
i have one variant of these at home, a norwegian variant, its missing all the inside parts and has a very short forward hand guard and a simply fixed sight!
Cheers.
Is this where Walther found inspiration for their "decocker" on the P-38? (See also subsequent iterations by S&W)
It is a very similar concept, although separated by a lot of water and many decades.
that looks a lot older than the one I used ! id like to learn more about rolling breach .
I have a plan arthur, just a bit more money and we'll be farming mangos in Tahiti!
But Dutch...
@@syndromeofadowns Have a little faith arthur! This is all going to plan...
We need a Remington rolling block mud test.
Looks like a musket and a mosin had a baby
Am I the only one who wish I had Ian's life? 😂
Looks good enough to me for it's time.
Rolling block? Light trigger pull? Huh, there's an oxymoron.
Спасибо за видео и ваш труд
7:53 noooo, you mean "I can lift this stirr... UP"
:3
It would be interesting if you could show a cartridge for the different weapons so people could see the difference of the calbres
I just received one of these from my wife’s grandfather. I believe it is a 1902 7mm Mauser rifle. Only markings are the patent date of 1901, 7mm on top of the barrel and a “u” on the barrel bands. I’m sure someone knows exactly what it is. I just haven’t done much research yet.
Remington made 7 mm to satisfy a Mexican contract. I can remember that in 1993 you could get them for less than $200.
Nifty.
Very nice system - I wonder what force impacted that stirrup though to cause the crack on the right side just forward of the retaining screw?
What about the crowns on the barrel bands?
I watched this vid the hopped on H3 vr and got this as my first weapon couldn't belive the odds
You say "guess" I say "Expert Opinion"
That is one of the dodgiest looking safeties I think I've ever seen.
And yes, that pun was intended.
I like them with a bull barrel
Ian had me worried the ATF had raided him, video showed up later than normal.
I think if I were redesigning this today, I'd make it so that the breech block could open and close with the hammer in the half cock position so it can be loaded and ready before the hammer is fully cocked.
Never been this early to one of these before!
yooo dodge makes cars AND guns?!
@@jimhumphrey good thing you corrected me i really dodged a bullet there
@@jimhumphrey i was making a pun
Why wouldn't they just put in a cross block safety to lock the hammer at its cocked position?
I was gonna say the first MOPAR but these dodge brothers are a different dodge brothers
Ian, please do an episode on the MP5A3 MACHINE GUN WITH R/M EQUIPMENT M203 PI GRENADE LAUNCHER at MORPHYS. They seem to have one at their catalog
I want to see him design a gun and prototype
Clever.
I think the Dodge Brothers you spoke of made engines and cars. The Dodge that did the guns was the father to them. I think so but I could be wrong
Cool
1870s cool👍
The mighty Dodge!
Could you make a video on tube lock carbines ?
Could a shock to the stirrup say from falling on the thumb piece on a hard surface cause the stirrup to move allowing the hammer to finish its drop I wonder.
My father has a Husqvarna rolling block 16 gauge shotgun.
I have a friend that bought one that had been a .50-70 rimfire converted to .50-70 centerfire. He had it rechambered to .50-90.
Am I seeing things or is there a crack in the part added to aid decocking? It looks like a crack running from the pivot pin up toward the flat part where you use your thumb to pull it back.
man this thing looks like someone scoured it with a wire brush
Makes you wonder what it looked like before they did.
To me, this almost looks more like a poor attempt at what would later get fixed with variants of "safety hammer". Preventing the block from opening in the event of a gas leak through the firing pin channel, which could push the hammer back and unlock the breech while there's still pressure in the chamber. Gas leaks from ruptured primers or case head separation was not uncommon with early cartridge cases, and the RB is particularly vulnerable to such leaks. I say a poor attempt, because this would put the force of locking on that spring loaded tab. The successful safety hammer variants instead prevented the hammer from being blown back by any gas leak, thus keeping the breech locked in the usual sturdy manner.
With the early rolling block design the firing pin was Spring loaded and sometimes it would freeze with the firing pin protruding out of the face of the breach block. When this would happen and a cartridge was placed in the chamber closing the breech block would detonate the cartridge and blow back the breech block. What the Dodge brothers were tempting to do was to prevent this from happening. With the spring loaded part of the breech block being raised up if a cartridge was fired accidentally and the breech block started to moved backwards this raised back part of the breech block would catch the front of the hammer and stop the breech block from opening the full way.
@@matthewbilly3252 that seems likely, this patent would solve both problems if it is strong enough.
What happens if you slap forward (like drawing from a saddle scabbard) on that little lever on the stirrup? Seems to be it goes bang. Darn good thing it ain't a carbine.
Did anyone else read that title as 'patent dodging' rolling block?
Dodge Patent - is that Mr. Dodge's patent, or is it an instruction?
What happens if you bump the “safety” thing forward. Ian showed the attempted moving backwards. Just curious since it looks like it would drop the hammer if you accidentally bumped the safety forward.
Should drop to the half-cock notch.
You would have to overcome the force of the hammer spring pressing on it so it would probably take more than just a little bump... but if you were able to do it than the hammer should catch on the “half cock” notch
I wonder if that's where the term "half-cocked" comes from, as in "going around half-cocked"?
Half cocked comes from flintlocks. I'm no expert but I believe it is when the frizzen closes the pan? In that state when the flint strikes it won't ignite the powder in the pan. So no boom. That's also where the phrase flash in the pan comes from too BTW. That's when you're full cocked, the powder in the pan ignites and there's still no boom. All you got was a flash in the pan.
What would happen if you had the rolling block safety engaged and then you bumped it off would the hammer then fire the rifle?
From what's shown in the video the hammer should catch on the half cock position shown at about 6:44. If you look at the rest of the video the hammer is often shown in this half cock position though it's only mentioned around the timestamp above.
Ty
Hmmm, not THOSE Dodge Brothers...