Separating Art from the Artist (using the example of Black Metal)
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- čas přidán 3. 07. 2024
- Is it possible to make a difference between art and the artist who created it?
Where does art come from? How is it connected to the mind?
I want to share some thoughts and my personal opinion about it.
Let's find out!
00:00 Explaining
01:49 Hypothesis 1
02:55 Hypothesis 2
05:08 Hypothesis 3
06:02 My opinion
07:56 Art is greater than the artist
08:59 It's up to you
10:43 Conclusion
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if i like the art, i seperate it. the only thing i do if i have problem with them: i dont support them with money.
Exactly, I will continue to listen to them but I will not buy any merch from them etc.
it is that simple. It is also actually insane how people cannot understand this.
If everyone was using products/consuming art with morality standards then no one would use any product or consume any art at all.
They just suddenly become morally superior and "saints" when the thing they are trying to "cancel" is not something they use/consume themselves.
How convenient.
You support them by listening to their music. Even if you pirate it you still probably tell your friends about them.
@@blackpower6654yeah and that's the thing I don't understand how people can still be cool with this
I mean you still sharing there message out in the world
@@blackpower6654 and im okay with that. i dont care what they did outside of their music. but i dont pay them directly. all this cancel culture is bullshit. people should decide themself, dont tell me what to do and listen to.
"Stop being a pussy and listen to music you enjoy." -Farvann
Truer words have never been spoken on the subject of separating art from the artist. Great video man.🤘
Trver words
Having strong principles is the opposite of being a pussy. What a ridiculous fucking statement.
The reason some people can't separate the art from the artist is that a lot of people experience music as a form of 'social connection' with the artist. And have to - to some extent - like the artist. They also feel in the art a connection that reflects something within themselves - and if this isn't mirrored in the personality of the artist - again there's another disconnect.
Speaking for myself - for the most part I can separate art from the artist to an extent - but I do feel an enhanced connection when I connect with the personality of the artist in some way, it enhances the experience.
Musical pleasure is 'pure' in theory, but in practice that purity is either enhanced or diluted by these extra-musical factors.
I'll admit I can be influenced subtly by some things - something as simple as really evocative and imaginative cover art on an album can enhance it a bit and attract me to the listening experience a little more!
That is a good explanation. I had similar thought, but couldn't put them into words.
I tend to stay away from artists that disgust me, however, I struggle with Burzum and also with Lovecraft. Both of those have produced incredible art, that is, to a degree important to me, but disgust me on a personal level. That is rather unpleasant, however, with Lovecraft I have less of a problem, given that he is dead and has been for more than 80 years.
@@hendrikm9569soft
@@hendrikm9569 lovecraft inspired a whole genre of literature for a lifetime. The other is a nazi who makes shitty music on a keyboard.
With me, I can separate the art from the artist if it's something like a video game, architecture, inventions, etc. where it's made by multiple people & the designers don't generally plaster themselves everywhere like rock stars, actors, or wrestlers. I realized that one of the Quake 1, 2 and 3 level designers (Tim Willits) was known to be an egomaniac & a lot of his maps were ripped-off from small time internet hires IICR, and he screwed over a lot of new employees behind the scenes, but you wouldn't know who he was unless you're the most diehard of Quake fans. And 95% of casual fans wouldn't know who Tim Willits is unless you searched his name in the credits or the dev room after beating the games.
But if his likeness was plastered all over the game & his personal life injected into the Quake series (like a rock star with John Romero's Daikatana), and the levels an artistic reflection Tim himself (like Vince McMahon's WWE career), then it's hard for me to separate the art from the artist. But in Tim's case, I see him like a "grunt-work type" person who helped build Madison Square Garden or something like that, or the bad manager stocking your grocery's shelves. Anyone with know-how could've done it.
One of my best friends too was a prolific Heretic 2 modder back in the day, and his stuff was better than Tim Willits's levels and wasn't just bland brown/grey rooms (Quake 1) or repetitive space stations (Quake 2). He well could've been hired by id Software to work for them, so for Quake 1 and 2's case, Tim Willits just happens to be the guy that someone more talented (like my friend) could have taken his spot if a change needed to be.
I feel ya. There's quite a few artists that don't even make art that I like all that much but I still support em cause I like em as people so much lol
I think everyone should have the right to make that decision for themselves. There are albums, movies, etc., that I have an extremely difficult time enjoying because I can't separate the art from the artist. Thus, there is music that I think is good but can't stomach because I am so against what the artist stands for that I'm unable to disconnect them no matter how hard I try. Other people are able to do so and there are situations I which I can do that while others cannot.
True.
cries in rurouni kenshin
There are a lot of examples in classical music. Wagner, Mozart, Gesualdo, etc. It's a thin line between a genius and madman.
Yup, Like Beethoven for example he's a music artists very great at what he does, but he's also a piece of shit.
Honestly, it feels a little different if they're dead. They're not benefitting from your custom and for that reason I've always been okay buying and reading the likes of H.P Lovecraft despite his horrendous side.
The video on NSBM and now this. This is why I love Farvann, he is able to take heated topics and break them down objectively, discuss and analyze them calmly and give a final judgement. Most people on the internet can't do that and just scream at each other through a screen, but balance and civil discussion like this are the best way to do online discourse about anything because it hears both sides and respects everyone.
Don't know if I break them down objectively, but I'm trying to create a civil discussion, yes. Because it's so rare on the internet and that annoys and bores me 😄
Definitely want a video on Dagon. Inquisition is one of my favourite bands, and I own quite a few shirts I’m a little afraid to wear in public. Then I remember nobody in my town listens to black metal. 🤷🏻
To me the most important is if your means of consuming their art ist supporting the artist. Streaming their music, buying their CDs or going to their shows is directly supporting the artist, not just the art. The only way to consume art without supporting the artist is listening to CDs you already bought or illegally downloading their music and never engaging in any conversation about it with anyone
I would like to know why is it so important if I'm directly or not supporting their art. Aren't we all giving our money everyday to people we don't really like?
I mean we are always buying products from terrible people in the end.
@@henriquelasneauxI agree completely. Marilyn Manson, for example, made some big mistakes that I don't agree with, but I will still buy his CDs, because that's the art that I love. Yes, that means he gets my $10, but like you said, every day we are giving money to people we don't like without even realizing it!
@@SpookyKid_SpaceAce As for Marilyn Manson, there's also the fact that this is a case that is still in process. We can't really affirm anything about the case, especially knowing that not long ago we had a very similar situation like what happened with Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. I'm just saying we should consider this possibility before any official conclusion.
I'm in favor of having some awareness regarding the support we give to certain problematic artists, but this is something so relative that.. in the end, what really matters is that you listen to what you like as long as it doesn't affect your character as a person.
@@henriquelasneaux Yes that's true, and I will always like Marilyn Manson as an artist to some extent, even if he is guilty. I just love his work so much I can't help but like the guy. And yes, I agree, listening to music from problematic artists doesn't mean the listener will become problematic as well, that's just not how it works.
It's crazy that the singer of a pop rock band, a pop rock band i liked alot back in the early and mid 2000s, Ian Watkins, ended up doing something more heinous than any of these black metal singers could touch. The ability to separate the art from the artist in that case is impossible for me. I feel so much for the other people in that band that dedicated their lives to that project for decades.
Watkins is utterly disgusting and has shown not a trace of remorse for the awful things he did. So I'm with you on this one, it's not possible for me to separate the art from the artist in this instance (and I did like Lost Prophets a lot back in the day).
@@justhannah3960 All those times listening to start something, what was once a huge nostalgic part of my musical life, I never thought I was listening to the biggest monster in the music industry. I saw them live for the first time mere months before that news dropped and something did seem kinda off....a very clear disconnect between him and his bandmates. He sounded awful too. I will never get how you can throw so much away to do something so heinous and gross. He was stabbed recently several times in prison.
I dont think they even made it a full decade lol
I think this demonstrates a fourth case not covered by the video. The problematic trait and the art are unlikely to be connected, so I have no issue with the music itself, but the fact I can't hear it without being reminded of this person ruins it for me anyway. The music has been tainted by association due to thoughts and emotions I can't control, despite being a believer in separating art from the artist on an intellectual level.
Same here. Can't listen to the Lostphrophets anymore, threw away all I had from them. It just makes me sick.
Farvann, I think you did a great job of explaining the different angles of this topic. The structures made perfect sense. Music and art is up for interpretation and it means something different for everybody, so go enjoy black metal people!🤘🌲🤘 Nice video Farvann!
Thanks for the video!
Before the war I wasn't so strict in my tastes, though back then I understood that a piece of an art definitely carries a piece of its artist's soul. But now when every other night I have to sleep in the subway because of missile attacks and read about deaths every day, well, I pay a special attention to what this or that band say about situation in my home.
Understand this point perfectly, a well-known artist should use his position of power responsibly. If he/her uses it to spread disinformation or propaganda, I´m out.
As a Christian and a fan of all genres of heavy metal, I often wonder about this. Thank you for the video. I think the answer is all of the above. I had a friend recommend Deathspell Omega, which I listened to a few albums. Then I heard the rumors about who might be in the band. I will still listen to them, but I don't pay for their work directly (CZcams). Most other bands I listen too. The music is there for enjoyment and entertainment, I may disagree with the artist, but it's their story and their art. I'm just in for the ride.
I listen to this band on a semi-regular basis; what are the rumors?
@@malkaviangrin9440It is openly believed, that Mikko Aspa is the singer of DSO. Just search for him, you will find out.
Personally, I absolutely don't care, owning some of their records. One of the greatest Black Metal bands of the whole "avantgarde" or experimental realm.
@@malkaviangrin9440Mikko Aspo, who dod/does the vocals for them, is a pretty unsavoury character. If you’re interested, there’s plenty of info to be found on the net.
Then there was their album ‘the Furnaces pf Palingenesia’ which mistakenly was, mainly due to the title, being interpreted as fascist/nazist, whilst in reality is a satirical criticism of authoritarianism.
DsO are a prime example of a band who value their art to the point where they use a singer who is politically the total opposite to their own convictions, for his vocal skills ( they stated this in a recent interview).
Great video man. Really informative that pushes each individual to think out of the box and decide for themselves
Personally I always separated myself from the art itself, then I don't have to ask pointless questions like "does this artist have similar opinions than mine?"
So you listen to music from the other room fascinating
I have thought about this topic many times, this was really interesting. Please make more videos that are related to philosophical stuff, they're great!
Very well done video here!! One of the most concise views ive seen/heard on this ongoing current topic of discussion in modern society
You have a lot of depth Farvann and I love when your videos get psychological or possibly philosophical. Regarding what you said lately the media talks about Rammstein being very problematic I know you like their art and so do I big fan. Back in my country there s no info regarding the band s new problems. I'd like to hear your take on this.🖤
For me I have a set of rules I follow when it comes to supporting artists, whether they are musicians, painters, or writers. I don’t financially support artists who support things that I am fundamentally against or if that artist is against my existence as a human being. I’m unfortunate in the fact that I was born with everything about me being fundamentally different, from my sexuality to having learning and behavioural disabilities. Some people take issue with that even though I didn’t choose any of this, and think I don’t deserve to be treated like a human. I don’t have control over what people think about my right to live but I do have control over whether I financially support those people or not. My rules on this are pretty simple, if an artist hates me for simply breathing then I won’t give them money. If they are dead or no longer make money off their work I may buy a few of their products if I like them.
Another banger farvann, definitely agree on the second hypothesis.
Even when an artist may have a set in stone meaning for the art they produce, the beauty of art means i can interpret it through my own lens, using my experiences and beliefs to colour what it means to me. They might say "cleave down the writhing maggot" and to me its "kill the hatred within us all" or something (pretty dramatic example but you get my point lmao)
very insightful and interesting commentary on the topic, YES, your english is great. Commenting for youtube engagement because everyone in the scene needs your content
Compliments on the video. I recently found out that Reddit has a whole section on asking " is band x okay to listen to?". I was really surprised by that, and a lot of people nowadays don't tend to think for themselves anymore. That's a reason why bands get "cancelled" quickly because people just follow the herd and don't think for themselves. Which is funny if you listen to BM, because being/thinking different is a fundamental aspect of BM. It's good that you try to make people think again.
I also think it's funny how much controversy there is in BM. It's a genre about satan and death, created by teenagers from northern Europe. What would you expect?
No people don’t want to support artists that don’t align with their personal values, people should be free to make that choice just like you have the freedom to listen to music without that in mind.
Singing about Satan and death =/= hating people for their skin color or being a rapist. None of your comment is logical even remotely. If you want to separate art from artist that is your prerogative, and I do it myself, but don't kid yourself into thinking that it's justifiable by nature of the art in question
@@brimerwelpippy4972id rather listen to kvlt stuff than a racist or a rapist
@@bloodydiablo666 oh me too, don't get me wrong. If I do listen to artists with those moronic views I don't tell anyone / give them money etc
@@brimerwelpippy4972why don't people like you just write better music? Then nobody has a reason to listen to the bad people with wrong opinions.
Separating art from the artist is a personal choose its up the listener
It's great that you've covered this topic, thanks.
For me personally it's a bit all over the place however I usually find it easier to separate criminals from their art as opposed to political opinions.
With criminals it's usually a one time offense, it's obvious what they've done is bad and they usually will recieve some form of punishment for it(not that that makes what they did in the first place ok). It feels more cut and dry to me.
With nsbm or bands with nazi members I find it much harder to seperate them, even if the music itself does not contain these themes. I am queer and autistic and I do not want to engage with a group of people that less than 100 years ago would have included myself and many of my friends in their genocide. Unlike a criminal case I feel the line between music and political opinion is much more blurred and it's not a case of one event that has happened and transpired but something more constant and residual.
Another distinction I make too is who is driving the band forwards and who is the creative force behind the band, if a band one time had a nazi member play with them but it was temporary then that doesn't bother me so much compared to a founding member that is pretty much the creative direction behind the band.
This being said there are exceptions, some bands I like I'm aware may have nazi connections but chose not to not research them so I can just enjoy them. I saw Emperor live last year and they brought Faust on stage for a few songs and while overall it was the best live show I've ever seen it definitely felt odd when he was playing. I would also never pay to see certain criminals live, the fact that Inquisition and Gorgoroth are both still headlining festivals despite both containing sex offenders absolutely angers me.
I definitely maintain you do have to have some questionable sense of morality to get into black metal lmao, where the line is drawn is different for everybody and people should not be judged for what they choose not to tolerate.
Black metal is antimorality, that's kind of the whole point...
Varg is right
Lol didn't read. I support nsbm.
This is the funniest explanation of why it's OK to support Emperor, but not Burzum.
@@deconsecrator5767 you're just a cuck. Burzum want to preserve the ethnic heritage of Europe
If you like music, just listen to music. People will never be fully aligned with your values, so try to like Albums and music instead of bands, regardless of your ideology or World perspective.
Good that you mentioned "artist and art have always been separated in first place". Back in 50s/60s/70s people didn't care about the artists' private life. Even Nergal of Behemoth said in an interview that Elvis Presley, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones etc. would be cancelled as soon as possible if they were about to start their careers nowadays. Personally I don't pay attention to artists' beliefs, private life, controversies etc. because the art matters to me. When it comes to political themes in music, I just listen to the music, sometimes try to understand the message. Also, I appreciate when the political art is made with a passion and honest connection with the ideologies, no matter if it's left-winged or right-winged.
Btw, what's that band you have a shirt of? The logo looks beautiful :D
It's korgonthurus
@@jagermeister480 Thanks!
perhaps its nothing wrong elvis and co it's some thing wrong in in cancel culture woke movement and those bloody green activists? perhaps woke scum and metal connot be combined?
It's awesome that you covered this subject. It's not talked about in-depth very often in this way. You should defiinitely make more philosophical videos, always really enjoy hearing your takes. Also gotta say that I love how you somehow brought the big bang and programming into this 🤣
I think what was missing here is the spread of the music by problematic people. If you personally can separate art from artist that's great, but doesn't mean everyone else can. Seeing people you respect wearing merch or listening to music from a nazi for example; the casual observer does not see your brainstate when you engage with the music, only that you are doing it, which normalizes the artist. A tacit endorsement is an endorsement nonetheless, and their ideologies come with it whether you intend it to or not unfortunately. And this is especially true for influencers.
I guess it just comes with the territory if you happen to enjoy music from problematic people. It's a sad truth that can only be solved by not showing your love of said music via merch or secretly listening to it; and how hard is that when you have the urge to spread it due to your deep connection to the art?
Your first part was about these problematic people connecting themselves with the artists. Your second part is a completely different topic. I don't think your 27 likes were by people who actually read your nonsense comment. A Nazi will support Nazi bands because that is their ideology, that is the INTENTION of expressing their love for the artist ALONG with the ideology.
In your same line of logic reading Lovecraft endorses supporting his views. Does anyone actually think that? No, because its stupid, just like your comment.
This is a new phenomenon, only because in the last few decades people've been thaught to base their personalities and lives on their politics, everytime an artist does or says something they disagree with, everybody gets in their crystal houses and feel like it's a personal attack on their whole existence
@@AvoCamilo Well, that's because the views spread by some of these artists is an attack on their whole existence. You should look up what the Nazi's thought about Jewish people.
@@mikedonnell86 Views like supporting communism and socialism?, because most artists do and nobody cares, people only care when they can virtue signal
A good topic to discuss!
Personally, I can separate the art from the artist. But if I have a problem with the artist being it his ideology or things he did I will not support him, be it financially, by wearing merch or even recommending him to other people. You can't help to be touched by the music you like and that's ok the bigger question is if you want to support someone you don't agree with or dislike what he has done. So for example I really like the music ofTaake, but I dislike the things he has done and said. In that case I'll listen to them in ways were I don't financially support him (buying his cd's second hand so he doesn't get my money). That being said bands that are directly making music about their problematic traits I don't listen to at all.
That was a great video ! Great topic to discuss !
In my own opinion, that doesn't really matter to anything but that's ok, I really agree with hypothesis 2, I belive the art and the artist is connected even if not on a direct level, art is something singular and unique (in some cases more then others) that I believe can only be created by the artist because of his thougts about the world, his views, his influences and life experiences, therefore connecting the art and the artist even if the art is not directly connected or talks abour the "problematic" side of the artist (probably Burzum being a good example)
Another view I have from this topic is that most people only talk about it when the artist is indeed problematic, like having commited crimes or extreme politcal views etc, because when we talk about others artists who have a more "normal" or "non-problematic" view of the world people don't really seem to be concerned about connecting art with the artist, for example, when a artist with a mental illness develops a work people tend to connect both because the artist problem made him see things in his own way and create his art (I hope I'm making my point here), the biggest example of this point is probably Van Gogh which is credited for having and singular view of the world and colors, reflected on his paitings, it is certainly known by most people that he had severe mental problems and people a lot of times credit his way of paiting and representing a view to his troubled and ill way of seeing life and the universe, therefore connecting art and the artist. Or another example is Hitler and his paitings, which tend to be most about landscapes and realism and nothing to do with politics yet people don't really feel comfortable apprecianting the art because of the man who did it (I'm not defending Hitler by any means I'm just talking about art and artist)
In conclusion, I do believe art is always connected with the artist even if in a non-direct way because is the artist that crafts the art and it's just one mind doing so therefore connecting both even if the artist wasn't having his thoughts on his "problematic" views during the crafting.
This was a very interesting topic to write about and I hope to read more about it in the comments.
Yep saying you can separate them is just cope for hypocrites
I love your content man and keep up the great work
Comments for the comment god!
Thanks for your approach. Always glad to see you getting onto topics you think are worth talking about, difficult or not.
Klasse 👍
Making art is also political as everything in life and the way you use public space to express yourself politically as an artist is important. As an audiophile I can definitely enjoy someone's music even if I'm against the person's ideologies/background etc, however I also consider important the way someone chose to do that -politically-. For example I'm all about downloading a nazi's music for free -if you're so hooked by what you listen- instead of buying their albums, supporting their concerts, buying their merch etc. In general tho its important to not forget the history and not allow these ideologies to be expressed without an answer
I love it when people dive into the psychology of art. Well done. I'm a black/doom vocalist and lyricist. I agree completely with hypothesis 2 in my case. My emotion regarding the world and life and people inspire my art and my beliefs. But my art is not connected to my beliefs.
This is a brilliant and nuanced explanation of your theory.
Very good topic. I´ve found myself a few times in that position, didn´t really know what to do. Thanks
Sometimes it sucks to have to try to separate. But I learned to because I love burzums music a lot. With my favorite album in particular being Det som engang var. but I haven’t really found anyone else that sounds at least almost exactly the same, but im open to some recommendations. I just don’t agree with how varg is at all, but at the same time burzum is one of my favorite black metal
Listen to Bathory, Varg ripped off Quorthon's style and sound, even some of his riffs
There's also nothing wrong with liking Varg though. Civilization needs to collapse.
@AvoCamilo although he certainly stole some riffs, they don't really sound anything alike, and tbf everyone in the early BM scene was ripping off Quorthon.
@@mutavhello6654 Yeh, the riff from Dunkelheit is just from Call from the grave, and the one in War is from Necromansy. To me, Burzum was the only "band" in the first wave of BM that played viking black metal, while straight up ripping off Bathory's style. While all of the other bands, Mayhem, Darkthrone, Emperor, were more inspired by Celtic frost and Venom
check out, SKUGGGOR - "A Life In Eternal Darkness"
I think both problematic traits and art come from the environment in which the person was raised in. Art is there for the person to vent their frustration and, of course, produce music, paintings, you name it. Half the time when the person was making art they didn’t know what would come out and in what form. Art is innocent expression. I still listen to Burzum, knowing what Varg did, because I appreciate the results that came from his creative side of his brain, not his self-destructive side. We all have this Yin-Yang. It all depends on which little voice you end up listening in the heat of the moment.
finally someone smart makes interesting videos on this stuff, keep it up man
Exactly the same opinion I had before watching this video. Good one Farvann!
People always talk about separating art from the artist in metal becasue of people like Varg or Faust. But no one see issue in for example - modern rap music. Rapers are pretty often out of law, using drugs and other stuff but this is totally fine to society. Imo non metal people should stop demonizing metal and think more widely!
And yes we should separate art from the artist.
waiting for black metal 2 to be released
Thank you for this video topic. Since the events around Dagon I feel a little bit uneasy wearing my Inquisition patches - but I love their music and continue to wear the patches. But in the meantime it took some inner debate and reflection. Deshalb: Dickes Danke, wie du das Thema in Worte gefasst hast. Und ein extra Video über den Inquisition-Fall wäre ebenso wünschenswert 👍🏻
No matter which hypothesis is correct, I feel extremely uneasy about offering my direct financial support, however insignificant, to people who actively promote questionable causes. Even if their art doesn’t reflect their ideologies.
That being said, I do realize that a lot of cases of questionable behavior and beliefs could simply never become known to the general public. And I also realize that a lot of great artists of the past could have easily gotten blacklisted according to my approach, had social media and other means of exposure existed in their day…
Fully agree with Farvann - there is no single right answer to this dilemma
In my opinion I can separate art and artist. BUT my problem is to support such artists now! My example: when I start to listen to Black Metal end of the 90s ( damn i am to old…) I want to listen so everything what is possible. And then I come to Burzum. I geared from a lot of people that said to me how good the old albums are. But can I now buy a record from him and support him? I would say no. So until now I never buy a Burzum record. Maybe buy a used one could me a solution for me?
Different case. I bought a Album from a band I want to Name here. Years later they switched to the NSBM. Can I still hear them? Yes because the support is done and no new support.
All in all it’s hard to judge und decide
I actually never given it too much thought but one thing comes to mind is how can i separate art from the artist when the artist himself didn't do so!... Anyway, nice topic, and channel. You have a new subscriber here, i have yet to watch your videos. Keep it up 😉👌
Tolle Erklärung, Farvann! 🤘
very good idea at the end. our teacher always used to tell us that a book's history starts only after it is released, and its fate is decided by the readers, not the writer
I always felt it's only truly inseparable is if what you find problematic is in the lyric material
A little something I'd like to add would be that looking at (black) metal, especially from an outsiders perspective, might make it easy to draw a connection between fast, dark and sometimes disturbing music and a musician who's actually a murderer or whatnot himself.
However, it is not like metal as a music (or artistic in general) genre has a monopole on problematic people; there's concerning personalitites in every musical scene, even the most peaceful sounding ones. They might be real scumbags, but still are able to create something beautiful, pretty and widely accepted.
that last bit at the end was perfect!
Interesting topic and well done video.
Your converting theory was beautiful! And my personal view on this subject is that music is just a deep way of speaking about our deepest feelings. An artist has multiple feelings meaning that a murder may have his dark desire but that typically isn't the sole emotion. They may be cold bloodied towards others but have the brightest, heck the warmest feeling towards music that they just scream that love in that most well spoken way imaginable 🌈 So, while listening to a song you may hear a few chords that speak about their dark side but you may also hear the brighterside about whomever. While we all truly know very little I believe it depends on the song. I have to say again your theory of converting from the universe, God, Goddess or whatever has opened my mind! Love it! ❤
Funny thing is: if you buy an NSBM shirt in the US, big chance it was stamped by a Mexican in the factory lmfao
I like your videos a lot! It seems you do them very spontaneously and in only one take, without many cuts, I like that.
And I agree with you! Arts belongs to the public! We "stole" it from the artist from the moment we make a connection with it and perceive it in an unique way.
Wahrscheinlich das beste Video das ich zu diesem Thema gesehen habe und danke das du Faust aufgreifst…. Der wird oft außen vor gelassen
I'm almost communist, I'm vegan and feminist, but I really love such groups as Kristallnacht, Grausamkeit, Satanic Warmaster, Moonblood and so on. JUST BECAUSE they created wonderful, very atmospheric music and had pretty beautiful vocals. Sooo... I think you can love art and hate personality. Cause experience and natural abilities, not their stupid beliefs, made them talented.
Most based comment here
My ultra-condensed take on such a tricky point is that everything is connected so you cannot separate art from the artist. Even if art follows its own path afther being released (in literature that' s the theory of reception, and it's so deep you can lose an aircraft carrier into it), someone created it. Even if their motivations are taken aside, it's an action you can't deny. Or put it simply: if I give a roundhouse kick to my neighbour I can't unkick him after that. Even if it's a kick wreathed with technique and aestethical beuty, something only seen in legends, it was me who kicked the neighbour. But this doesn't EVER justify the culture of cancellation... But let's not open that watermelon (it sounds way better in Spanish)
Como podría sonar mejor eso en español? xD
@@profetsoul no me digas que no suena bien que es mejor que no abramos ese melón 😬
thats the wildest analogy ive ever seen lmfao nice
That meow in the end really touched me
Good vid, this is a topic many content creators are too afraid to discuss, but not you Mr. Farvann. Appreciate your discourse on this important subject! Music is meant to be for all, and a few shitbags can't ruin it for the rest of us.
as a norwegian i got to say the way you said varg vikernes sounded norwegian.
I saw the title of this video and I was like "Oh man Farvann would never make a risky video like this" Oh wait...Good to see you tackling the topic even at the risk of the downvotes.
you the man Farvann
Interesting video. Just a couple weeks ago there was a band named Panzerfaust who was canceled from a gig for their beliefs. Uada backed them and said these claims were ridiculous. Panzerfaust said they were a political but People have argued that their name and going to the Canadian truck convoy. Others argue they’re signed by a German label and they hate all political sides of government. Anywho keep them coming man, you’re the best.
I separate quite alot I think, but theres a few things like animal abuse, phedophilia and rape that just makes me loose interest.
Ironically the very last thing you say about the topic in the video is the one I agree the most with. I will listen to a band with what people consider "morally wrong" lyrics if I enjoy the music.
A great example of this is Malevolent Creation's "They Breed", most of the lyrics are fine up until the very end of the song where a slur is uttered and some people would and in fact have stopped listening to the band just because of that.
However for me, it is actually the song that made me want to listen to the band more, why? Not because I think the lyrics is some great message, but because of the way things physically sound. The vocals, guitars, bass and drums, the way they all simply sound to me is worth me ignoring anything in the lyrics just simply because I enjoy the music so much.
So I say, yes. Just don't be a pussy and listen to music if you enjoy it, because just like following someone on social media, listening to a song and enjoying the way it SOUNDS does not mean by default you share or support any of the beliefs of the actual creator, and personally I don't think the song even reflects what the artist believes, but that's a whole other story.
The reason why people seem to always be having this conversation nowadays is essentially an oversupply issue...both of content and information.
In the underground scene of the 90s, getting hold of a new project to listen to was much harder and the information about that project was largely confined to reading interviews in fanzines. So people weren't so fussy. If you managed to get hold of a demo or album release from a band and you liked the music, and the imagery presented with it then it was all good.
Nowadays is different, people have a lot more access to the more private sections of an artist's life that they may potentially get into. Combine this with the glut of releases that are only a simple search away from being acquired, and people have got much, much more pickier. It's not just enough for an artist to be of a genre and sound you like, but every aspect of that artist gets examined.
In some ways it's very understandable, there is so much coming down the pike that people simply can't be into everything, so the criteria gets tightened as a kind of coping mechanism. It's also a symptom of *everything* being politicised. Back in the day, it simply wasn't like that.
There are other hypothesis that are important to consider, and they can be true while any of the other three you presented are also true:
- Hypothesis 4: The artist is using the money he gets from the art to fund his "problematic trait".
In the case of Varg Vikernes, he stated that back then he used the money he made to arm neo nazi groups in Norway. Would you buy an album if you knew you're arming people to hurt your own?
- Hypothesis 5: The art is made through problematic means.
This is a variation of hypothesis 4 and is more common in the films and video game industry, for example, Hollywood abusing writers and actors. This one doesn't need to be the same as hypothesis 4 but it often is, as funding this type of art enables more of its methods to repeat again.
- Bonus hypothesis: Space and time context.
The art was made at a time the problematic trait wasn't problematic, or maybe it happened decades ago and the art is now royalty free or historic, or maybe the artist changed their ways and is not causing any damage anymore, etc you get the point. I put this one as a bonus because it is actually a hundred different hypothesis rolled into one, each being different with some positive and other negative.
I think each case has its own weight and should decide if we should or should not separate on a case by case, it's not like we consume hundreds of works a day and can't think about each one separately.
This is a tricky topic, and I’m glad that you weighed in on this discussion, Farvann. I’m newer to black metal, so my example will be different, but shows my thought process. In high school I fell in love with the galloping riffs and soaring vocals of Iced Earth. As someone who is more in the classical liberal/libertarian way of thought, I found it interesting when Jon Schaffer (founding member and rhythm guitarist for Iced Earth) was creating a project called Sons of Liberty. I gave it a listen, and my immediate thought was “the riffs are cool but this is a lot of bullshit right wing (American, not European) propaganda.” I found a chat board that Jon lead on FB by accident, and lo and behold I found myself swimming in a far right extremist chat room - think Alex Jones level. I closed that window and never opened it again.
Anyway, back to my point, did this change my opinion of Iced Earth? No. Iced Earth never really discussed those topics and you can tell he tried to keep that out of his art. However, it definitely lead me to never listen to his side projects ever again, since I knew it was right wing extremism on display. Anyway, it did not surprise me at all when it was revealed that Jon Schaffer was at the Capitol on January 6th. I’ll still listen to Iced Earth, but I probably won’t wear any of their old merch that I have in public ever again.
So tl;dr: I can separate the art and artist so long as the art doesn’t directly discuss the troublesome issue itself or more accurately try to influence people to join them in that troublesome way of life.
Jon did nothing wrong
@@RidinMyGrandmasCadillac While "nothing wrong" is not quite correct, you could say that his case has been blown out of proportion completely. The fact that he got cancelled so bad for that is pretty insane, considering all the other criminals in the metal scene, and in the mainstream pop as well, that have done far worse. The guy didn't kill, assault, or molest anyone. Yet he became the big bad of the metal scene for a while. Crazy.
For some reason your replies just came through in my notifications… that’s kinda weird, YT. Anyway, I agree that he didn’t do anything explicitly evil or malicious. I just found his political views to be a bit too extreme. His Sons of Liberty project produced some quality songs… hell, I enjoy people riffing on the Fed, but it was a bit too far for me - though you could certainly just say he was being artistic. In the chat room associated with that side project, it was really radical in there. I’m not making a judgment on him personally for 1/6, and it was certainly blown out of proportions to the level of “crime.” I just wanted to relay my personal experience with a band that I absolutely love in Iced Earth… and still love. I can look past it with Iced Earth, less so with Sons of Liberty.
On black metal, I’m relatively new to the genre, but Enslaved brought me in, and then I fell in love with Emperor and have continued to dive into the genre from there, especially following Ihsahn around. I understand that there is a cloud around Emperor and Faust in particular, but I think it is relatively easy to separate the music from the crime there. I’m just saying that I think that the two are separate except in certain circumstances where a direct agenda is being pushed which crosses a line for me.
I love Varg!
Very good points.
Cool ... It's cool that you have this idea. I thought it seemed to only me that creativity is from the universe.
I’ve been a devout Christian and a black metal fan ever since I discovered it as a kid when MTV would play it occasionally. Gorgoroth was a band I adored but had no idea they were the extreme edgy Satanists that they were. I still respect it but I don’t listen to it a lot now. Then there’s Deicide, I torrented them ages ago and it was labeled “Decide.” Imagine my shock when CZcams becomes a thing and see it’s actually Deicide and see the lyrics lol.
Long story short, it’s easy in the metal genre to not even care or notice any message with a lot of bands. Since lyrics are the only written message it’s usually not even important in some bands so easy to ignore.
Deicide and Gorgoroth are quite extremists.
Very well done video dude!!! I would say that very last statement fits the bill, and cancel culture and outside virtue signaling should never influence what you listen to in personal preference.
Great video and great topic. I like to think that metalheads are different than other people and in "our" world things like this doesn't matter, we don't live in Hollywood where saying something unpopular can destroy your career and close all the doors.
Very interesting video.
According to me we can seperate art from the problematic person ( but does being able of doing it means having to do it ? )
We can if we ignore facts, that's also why sometimes I prefer to not know a lot about people behind art, because I used to be disappointed when I met some rappers I listened to. Their music being solid to me doesn't mean they were no longer humans, so yes, you could experiment disappointing. And it's sometimes hard to seperate art from the person when it's personal. Imagine a rapper or a singer killed someone, well you might be more comfortable to listen to him than if he was rude with you in real life after a concert for example. Because we can all find excuses for people ( or not ), and we could manipulate reality to become something more acceptable. According to me we all live in our self reality, and the reality is a kind of mix of ours. That's like memories, they could have been changed by what people told us. A simple example: kind of hard to most of us to remember facts when we were 2 years old. So if someone told us at 6 years old something, how, as an adult, could we remember if memories we have are real or just a false memory induced by what someone told us when we were 6 years old ?
We can if the piece of art is not all about a single person, like a movie, it's hard to seperate when it's a single singer and when his/her art was not problematic, but is now perceived as problematic, since a relation between the problem and the art seems quite obvious now.
I'm thinking about R. Kelly, I always loved his music and thought he was quite obsessed with women and sex in general, but there's a difference about someone who is obsessed with this and respect them, and him. So after I learned the truth, each time I listened to a song of him, as it was always about the same subject, it took another dimension. About art and problematic person linked, I would talk about his video Cookie. While everything appeared soft in his first area, this video has a totally different vibe, far from a love song and more like a sex song.
We can if we are agree with the problematic person. Which means we are a problematic person. But as long as we're not famous probably no one would know it. Neither ourselves.
And we can if it's a movie. As on a movie set there's always, or most of the time, ton of people. So we kind of accept the idea some of them are problematic people, it's just mathematics. Hard to be around 1 000 people and all of them being good people...
And art created is a mix of all these people it's easier to appreciate it even if one of them is a problematic person. Example I have in head is Chinatown. Except a moment director appeared in a movie, most of the time it's all about Jack Nicholson ( and a great movie if you ask me ), you really have to know movies to know which director is for this or that one.
While when you buy an album with single artist on the front it's not the same.
And we also can when people are too talented no matter what. I could talk again about R.Kelly. Because obviously facts are facts. But from a personal and self-centered point of view, I was pained to learn it had to be a talented artist ( at least to me ) who did that. I had a moment in which I selfishly thought I would have preferred a " bad artist " did it. As if it's about a bad artist I would have been just pained by the facts. While if I do like an artist I'm also pained by the fact I could no longer appreciate as how I did before.
There's also something else to me: we can when the problematic fact is subjet to interpretation. Michael Jackson, Tupac, Mike Tyson. A lot of fog on their accusations, a lot of different versions. While I only heard one version about Roman Polanski. Sometimes the problem is not an artist or a sportive, but his entourage. When you're famous you often got a lot of people with you. Some of them might trying to abuse your groupies for example. So without knowing it you might have created a dangerous situation for a female who thought she was safe with her idol while there were other people with bad intentions.
It's also about how we're trying to appreciate things. Some of them are more appreciated by our limbic brain, our emotions, and our emotions could be affected by how we perceive reality. So if someone is a terrible person to us, it could affect us about how we feel his/her art.
If we're talking about things we appreciate by our neocortex, which means being Cartesian, we could both accept a person being awful, and his/her art brilliant. And deal with the fact the one who have to be punished is this person for his/her behavior. Not us. And if we could no longer appreciate his/her art for morale reasons while we would have been morale all way long it could be seens a self punishment for free. As long as the art itself is not related to the problematic person it could be okay to appreciate it. But knowing it could be okay doesn't mean we could all appreciate it. Because we're all different, some ones are more emotive, or more emotive about some subjects, like children, or pets.
To finish I would have to say that to me it is easier to appreciate a collaborative work like a movie for example, rather than an album, even if it is a collaborative work, as the problematic people, if being the singer, would be the center of attention all the time.
And a voice is very personal, so how to seperate a singer from the rest of him/her ?
As it's supposed to be personal in general ?
While actors are actors, they play characters. Some singers could play characters, but not necessary. It's not obvious, while movie characters are.
I always separate the art and the artist if it's something I like. I do this with a band, I dunno if you know it, called Durbatuluk. The music is great but the guy behind it is too funny and too nice to be a black metalhead /joking 😂😂
I think that if you like something and the artist doesn't make the final product part of their problematic trait you should totally separate the two. I mean at the end of the day we experience the final product so we shouldn't care about anything else.
Obviously I would think that if that product in any case supports the artist to do something of its problematic trait, like helping the artist to get financiary support for maybe an extremist act then I would stop "buying" that product to stop supporting problematic things. I wouldn't give money to Varg to buy a lighter or to Gaahl to buy a knife or whatever, y'know?
I think that this kind of video need to be much longer, because while everything you mentioned was on point, you didn't mention time, or how the rest of the band acts after the show of the trait. For example watain, a very extreme black metal band, had a member who happened to salute with ns ways in a photoshooting, after that, he got kicked out, and was criticized by the rest of the band, this is a time where you can separate the art from the artist. Another case would be, if I learn about an artist who is a murderer, then i will run through his songs that i like and see the lyrics, if they are connected then i wipl never be able to see the artist the same way, if not then i will separate him from the art but i won't support him in live shows etc. Apart from all of them though, i will never be able to see a case like of varg vikernes like an artist ever again and i won't be able to separate him from his art.
Greetings from Greece😁
This is also actually a great topic. He mentioned Faust for commiting murder. He also mentioned the vocalist of As I Lay Dying and his attempt to have his wife assassinated. Both have done their time. Yet with Faust, at least with what little I have seen, it does seem like he understands what he did. He is living with it. Im not sure how me he regrets it, but he seems to have some understanding it was wrong. Yet, once again from what little I have seen, I dont get that as much with the vocalist of AILD. He just got out of prison, jumped right back into things, and it didnt seem to bother him.
An example outside of metal is Brandon Sanderson, a fantasy author. He actually used to be pretty homophobic. He didnt support same sex marriage in the US because of his religious beliefs. So I know people who still wont read his books, yet is was a few years ago he came out and said he actually no longer holds those beliefs and supports the LGBTQ+ community.
So even looking at how time has played a factor and how these people change seems to also be something to consider.
Yeah and when he was asked about it in an interview he rambled about a whole bunch of nothing 🤷♂️ they kicked him because of money, not morals. They wouldn't be as big ss they are today if they had a nazi in the band.
@@BananaGeekLordok i can hear that, redemption is important indeed. But it can be difficult sometimes, for example what you said about sanderson may be true but he also might just said that because of the rise of the lgbtq community and thought that as an opportunity.
I don't need to separate the art from the artist because I agree with him
Do the inquisition focused video! That’d be hella interesting
If the music is different from the musicians/band: hell yes, if the music is used to spread disgusting ideologies: hell no. That's my way of handling it.
Also I think most people don't even check lyrics, probably the reason why comments under NSBM videos are way too positive, if they would understand every lyric they probably have a harder time listening.
@@XPGrindDeathking people who listen to nsbm either support the message or they just don't care about it at all
@@RidinMyGrandmasCadillac I'm still pretty sure a lot of them wouldn't listen to bands they actually can understand, disgusting nonetheless of course.
Bruh i was listening to my dreams of 8 from satanic warmaster since my 16 and i only found out about a year ago. Because i have never read the lyrics of any song in carelian
And yeah i still listen to nsbm even if i already know what they are saying. The same way i listen to omixli a greek anrcho communist band and operation mindcrime .
Oh, man. Farvann spent a week in the forest and transformed into Philosophervann again. 🤔
This is a very interesting video. I have two thoughts...
1. What you said about "the art becomes bigger than the artist" is true. Part of the meaning of a song is what the artist puts into it, and part of the meaning is what the listener takes out of it. And if the listener interprets the lyrics differently than the artist does, he may be misjudging the art, the artist, or both. This makes it all the harder to answer the question of separating art from artist; maybe the words *are* harmless, and *I'm* "problematic" because I'm seeing something in the song which isn't really there. Or maybe the words *are* harmful, and I'm too naive to see it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; so is everything else you might find in art.
2. I think there are three factors to consider: my opinion of the art, my opinion of the artist, and my behavior toward the art (will I buy it, will I listen to it, etc.). I think sometimes people confuse changing their *behavior* with changing their opinion of the art itself. For example:
Louis: "That's a nice painting. I will buy it."
Farvann: "That painting was done by a man with a mustache who died in 1945."
Louis: "Oh, he was evil. I won't buy it after all."
"Now I won't buy it" is not the same thing as "Now I think the painting is ugly." I can judge the art (good painting) and the artist (bad person) separately. Refusing to buy the art based on the artist has nothing to do with my judgement of the art itself in this case.
TL;DR version: Welcome back from your trip. Nice video! Still waiting for the Sovlmate app. 🤘🙂
Farvannian Perspective :D
Art is magic. When the art becomes bigger than the artist and becomes timeless and enjoyed for generations...that is magic in its purest form. Art is magic because it makes you FEEL something.
Famine from Peste Noire has said some very outlandish shit during the years, but god his music and albums (aside from Split) are S tier products
Agree. What has ruined his music to me is that I cannot disasociate it from a very dark time in my life in which I had to deal with horrible people. I feel repulse and hate just when thinking of Famine
My biggest problem with separating art from artist is right here, in the black metal scene. Black metal has giant problem with nazis. By listening to their output, even if you don't support them directly, you are creating a save space for them, where they can freely express themselves. The result is that i, a person of colour who likes black metal, am not feeling comfortable attending black metal concerts because chances are that there are gonna be at least few nazis. It's the paradox of tolerance.
Agreed. I would also like to add that I'm starting a campaign to make underground hip hop shows in Detroit more inclusive to white people. Because there might be some people there who don't like white people. It's the paradox of tolerance you see.
@@deconsecrator5767 Yeah, that's fair. Racism is stupid. Like assholes are gonna be everywhere, but if artists in community actively promote hateful ideologies it needs to be addressed. And it doesn't matter what colour of your skin is.
Who cares if someone is uncomfortable of going to concerts? We're talking about black metal.
Were people comfortable attending the earlier Mayhem concerts where the main decoration was decapitated pig heads?
@@royfoy8951 The statement is simple. Zero tolerance to nazis. Period. And this includes not listening to their music, not buying their merch and not attending their concerts.
@@synthicate5030 You are a hypocrite. Your opinion doesn't matter.
I think that art should always be free and uncensored. However, having artistic freedom also means that there are consequences to your artistic expression. For the same reason someone should be free to express themselves artistically, others should be free to choose whether they consume your art or refuse it.
As a side note, I am making a clear distinction between art and propaganda. Art stands on its own, and serves itself, propaganda ( such as nsbm) primarily serves to promote a political agenda, one that I refuse to support in any case.
Ps I refuse to listen to Burzum. Not because I think Varg is sn idiot, but because I think the music is amateurist rubbish 😂
Interestingly there’s an innate lack of quality usually when it comes to the themes and other things that propaganda depicts. So the lack of skill usually shines through. There’s a reason why a lot of things written by Tumblr, stuff created by conservatives, and overtly political (yes I’m aware this is broad, but most cases of this in the past five years alone was cringe) people end up not being good.
Tumblr redesigns of characters are usually agenda driven, so it’s hard to separate the art from the artist in that case. Or Ben Shapiro’s creative endeavors ending up being poorly written and preachy garbage in of itself.
I can personally separate that - I can listen to the music without personally feeling bad about artists' personal lives (in this sense it doesn't really matter to me which hypothesis is true for an artist I listen to). BUT there's the issue of increasing their impact (not only of their music, but maybe also of their problematic traits/views/beliefs) just by listening to them - e.g. they get more listens on Spotify etc. The more impact a band has, the more people can be swayed by their defective personal views/beliefs/deeds. That's the real issue for me, although I still listen to some bands that have this kind of problems (I gotta admit I do feel a bit hypocritical about that though).
If lyrics are okay then I can separate art from artist. If lyrics contain their views that clash with me then I can't.
i separate it always. i don’t care what the musicians do, if the music sounds good, i’m buying it.
edit: yes, even when the lyrics and topics of the band are “problematic” i don’t care. good music = take my money
You can try and separate art from the artist all you like but the fact remains is that the art wouldn't exist without the artist in the first place.
Its impossible to seperate them logically speaking, but we can pretend if it make us feel better. What I do is that I recognize that everyone is nuanced, and that just because some guy did some bad thing doesn't mean he's a villain who only does bad things and can't change.
It is really possible to separate. But some people can't.
Okay, white knight. I'm sure you feel like a good person behind your keyboard. At the end of the day, I'm still going to wear my absurd shirt in public 😂
I follow the principle in hypothesis 1 - does the art convey the problematic tendencies of the individual? if the answer is no, then i couldn't care less about what the musician believes in or what fetishes they might have, as they are cleanly separated from the music. Prime case in point: Karl Logan from Manowar.
After a few years of psychotherapy, I suspect nobody really knows why they do anything. We are all quite complexly conditioned by our experiences and genes. So I suspect 1 and 3 apply simultaneously, which works like hypothesis 2.
But in the end, you are right. If art enters the world it creates itself new. And after years the real creator is mostly forgotten.. unless he did something bad, from the viewer's point of view.
Example: HP Lovecraft.
I don't necessarily separate the art from the artist, I just don't give a fuck in most cases. I listen to a lot of NSBM and don't agree with them politically, but I also listen to a lot of Satanic bands and don't agree with them religiously.
What's truly hilarious is that Varg is not remotely as "racist" or "problematic" as he's made out to be. The man has the most neutral political stance, lives in a countryside with his Family and has a sense of patriotism/tribalism or whatever you wanna call it. Whatever Varg has said about races is scientifically true, he's not some hateful maniac , in fact he even admires Native Americans. Try paying attention to him instead of reading BS on the internet.
"Whatever Varg has said about races is scientifically true" 🤦♂
@@mrvonel3016 >implying black people aren't faster than white people on average
Keep palming your face, you might learn something about frontal cortex too
i just care about seeing a perspective come across in a compelling manner. however if a statement is being made like i am supposed to agree, and i don’t, i typically choose to stay away. it’s more complicated than all 3 of these hypotheses in my opinion.
"Art is greater than the artist", and you explaination of it, sounds a lot like the post-modernistic phenomena "The death of the author (artist)"
Nah varg s fine
Varg did nothing wrong
Based
Varg did nothing wrong
Short answer: yes, I listen to music made by people who I don't agree with at all, who's done stupid shit, who's said stupid shit, who believes in stupid shit, whatever. I'm there for the art, not the artist - and this also includes artists in the "hypothesis 3"-category. Just because they can't seperate it, doesn't mean I can't.
Awesome Korgonthurus shirt!