Are Higher Value Pots The Key To "Modern" Burst Tone? (w/ Nostalgic Pots)
Vložit
- čas přidán 4. 08. 2024
- Check out Nostalgic's new webshop here: www.nostalgicguitars.com
Last month I swapped out my tried-and-true VIPots for a set of 'hybrid' pots put together by Nostalgic in Texas (aka Taylor Speers!) These are genuine, vintage Centralab carbon tracks and wipers - exactly what would have been used in original Burst Les Pauls - that have been taken out of larger enclosures and housed in CTS metalwork....so they look like CTS 500k pots, and the shells are CTS, but everything that makes a difference to how the pot sounds and behaves is real vintage Centralab. Cool, eh?
Those pots I used before were 500k (approximately...some were up in the 550k+ range, just like the VIPots are) - and as we heard, they made a subtle but noticeable effect to how the guitar sounded....to my ears, it had slightly more 'snap' and a less dense lower midrange. Only a slight change, but definitely a noticeable one. (Those particular pots had a linear taper - which isn't what Bursts would have had - but we worked with it to compare them!)
Today though, we're going to try something a little different - for two notable reasons. Firstly, and as previously mentioned, original Centralab pots did have a habit of reading at higher than 500k when they were new....some varied more than others, but Taylor has recently found a NOS guitar-sized "500k" Centralab, completely unused, that reads as 675k. So whilst some Bursts will have had 500k pots from new, it's very likely that others shipped with pots reading significantly higher.
But possibly more interestingly, many Burst owners in recent years have measured the pots in their 60+ year old instruments, and found them reading even higher than that (sometimes up in the 7/8/900k range)....and, often with the volume pots reading much higher than the tones. The speculation for why this is is that when you use a pot, and the wiper drags along the carbon track, over many., many years the resistive material will wear away, and the value of the pot will therefore creep up. Yes, we guitarists do use the tone knobs, but our volume knobs generally get a lot more use.....so, more wear over many decades is thought to create the offset between Vol + Tone readings in the same guitar, which were most likely from the same original batch of pots.
Many of us nowadays watch channels such as Emerald City Guitars, Carter Vintage, etc, and drool over the demos of original Bursts creating these gorgeous tones. But with many of those guitars likely having had higher pot values from new, AND with 60 years of wear on them to raise the resistances even further, it's very likely that the "modern" Burst tones we're hearing in demos are being created through pots reading a long way above 500k.
So, we're going to put this to the test. I'm going to compare the original set of 500-ish Nostalgic hybrid pots to a new set - the volumes up in the 8/900k range, and the tones around 750k, which is what many original Bursts read in at nowadays.
What do you think? Which set of pots was your favourite? Which made my LP sound more like a 'modern' Burst recording in the demo videos we all love? Comment below!
Guitar is a 1992 Les Paul Standard with ThroBak SLE-101 PAFs. Amp is a Vajra JTM45 clone running into a Zilla Studio Pro 2x12 cabinet loaded with Scumback S75-PVC AlNiCo and Celestion AlNiCo Gold speakers. Recorded with Aston Spirit Condenser, '70s Sennheiser MD441 and sE RNR1 ribbon mics, with a Schoeps CMC6 room mic.
0:00 Intro
7:05 Comparison
14:56 Outro
joeperkinsmusic
jp@joeperkins.co.uk
Vector images by freepik.com - Hudba
THIS IS FOR THE VIEWERS. Why does this incredible guitar CZcamsr have less subscribers than some guys who just sit and play a Korg Volca viewing nothing but their hands with little or no technical knowledge and certainly not to the degree of Joe Perkins?
Let’s get the word out! He deserves it for the immense amount of work he puts into his posts!!
BTW. I have zero affiliation with Mr. Perkins
On the otherhand, i always think Joe has a very discerning audience. The comments themselves are generally interesting to read. He's one of the few "youtubers" that I actually watch & listen to all the way through.
Agreed--we're very thankful that Joe has been willing to put our pots through their paces! Much appreciated Joe!
Aha, thanks Johnny...cheque is in the post.... ;-) Hah!
I love Joe and if it was up to me he'd have 1 million subs but unfortunately art and youtube arent a meritocracy and it is actually quite cruel. If you dont have the "IT" people gravitate towards (whatever that is this year) you just dont have it and there isn't much to do about it.
I don't know mate. But I definitely agree and personally have no idea. Peoples tastes are obviously different.....and dare I say.....a bit gooched
Joe, I'm coming to appreciate your videos more and more. The way you present them, your vibe and your knowledge of whatever topic your discussing. Your hair is pretty styling too. Keep up the great work.
Thanks Jason :-) Hair definitely a weak link ;-) haha
You’re a gentleman and a scholar, Joe. Thanks for conducting and sharing these experiments with us. They are most helpful (and fun). Aloha 🤙
Thanks! Glad they're useful :-)
Those Higher value pots are the way to go for me, sounds Ace. With the the standard value pots I feel like somethings lost and its there with the other pots. Great Video :)
Always great info and vids. Thanks
That les Paul sounds amazing! I love that you always keep the tone crispy, I hate when a les Paul goes all muddy and thick
Treble is nothing to be scared of :-)
Perk thank you so much for doing videos like this.
Cheers Simon :-)
This was great.. thanks!
They all sound good. I'd be happy with any of those pots in that guitar. Man, I wish I could afford a Les Paul.
A 500K pot in the volume position always presents its 500K load to the hot side of the pickup (tab 1 is hot, tab 3 is ground). The wiper side of the pot (tab 2) is then added as a parallel resistance. Even with the volume near maximum, you still have the low-value side parallel with the high-value side. A higher total value of resister will present a higher overall load from tab 1 to tab 3 (less parallel conductance). When "adding" parallel resistance, you're actually adding the conductance of one resister to the conductance of the other. 1/((1/R1)+(1/R2)). So no matter what two values you add in parallel, the outcome is less resistance than the lowest resister because you're adding another conductive path. Other than that, it's all just resistance. If two different value pots are adjusted to the same measured resistance, the tone will be identical. The calculation of the taper changes, but the output is the same for the same resistance in-line.
good comment Jeff. Ill add old parts had a higher tolerance do you think clapton or page or peter green cared what volume and tone control values were on their les pauls. they bough them and played them. I promise you if you sit in your room and play for the same amount of time it takes you to switch the pots and listen to them and find out if there is a difference. that playing will pay off alot more than the 600k pot value.
@@jonnyhafer7376 It's just a reminder that a 250K is not the same as a 500K turned half-way down, nor is a 500K the same as a 1 Meg turned half-way down, various tapers not withstanding.
@@bradfordjeff @Jeff Bradford i get all that, i have a descent understanding of electronics, ive built pedals and amps for a living for the last 10 years and did electronics as a hobby since i was a teenager. if i put a 100k pot for volume on say a fuzz face which uses a 500k it sounds quite a bit different. in my guitars though when i have changed pots ive noticed it, but in this video arent we talking about going from the stock 500k pots ( some years gibson used 300k pots as well) to and after market pot which rates at 600k to 700k and yeah on the extremes of 800k 850k your probably going to notice a difference, but its nothing that a small tweak to an amp knob couldn't fix in my opinion. I had 500k pot in my 64 jaguar lead circuit i wanted to try a 250k for a couple reasons so i put the 250k in and tried it, I was like wow that did it sounds great. when i grabbed the 500k pot to throw in my used pots bin i looked at it and it was a 250k, i felt so dumb inside I swore it sounded better i even measured them to see if they had different tolerances. right then i was victim of the placebo effect hahaha. its embarrassing to tell that story but its real and its the truth.
@@jonnyhafer7376 You're right, a little tweaking of the amp makes all the difference.
Thank you for the superb video!!. To my untrained ear in general the standard pots sounded smoother and more musical whereas the others were somewhat more harsh in their tonal response. Thanks
You rock kind sir!
Just subbed! You have some really nice topics on your channel. Really enjoyed this one too, although I didn’t hear a massive difference between the two setups, except when playing quite gainy. Maybe it’s more apparent in the room.
Thanks Ari :-) It was pretty subtle even in the room, to be honest!
Just discovered your channel. Fantastic video! I could go either way with the pot values though. Ultimately the differences were subtle enough & neither one was technically "better". Maybe as you said a higher value in the neck has some merit but I certainly wouldn't be too concerned about it.
I think you can put a jumper on the pot and bypass it all together and have that be part of your test. Pickup will run wide open that way. Thanks for the great videos!
Funny how I'm watching this after hearing a friends Les Paul that he fitted with 1 megaohm pots. Compared to the usual 500k ohm pots, the 1 meg ones sounded so good to me, and up there with the best Les Pauls I've ever heard.
It's almost as if the universe is telling me to change my pots to 1 megaohm 🙄✌️
Same with straps... 500k sound better than 250k to my ears. I have a muddy les paul I'm going to put a 1 meg pot in.
Entertaining, informative and watchable, Joe, but I must say your playing is on another level with regards to tone. Patent your fingers.
Aha thanks Steve...maybe I could insure them for a fiver :P
Hey What's up Bro! 👍👋🍻
good video! i like more highs on the tone for lespauls, 500k pots with no tone connected helps to preserve more highs...
Hello Joe. Firstly thanks for the brilliant explanation in all your vids. Slightly off point question here but could you explain: Is there any difference between a pot suitable for Tone to that of one for Volume? Do you use two identical pots for both? I see A & B pots does this mean that they are different ie: is one linear and the other Log' (or vice versa) I hope that this isn't just me being a noob! Any advice would be very much appreciated.
This is just like moving magnet versus moving coil phono cartridges! Humbuckers tend to prefer very light loading (high resistance volume pot and high resistance pedal inputs) to make them sound a bit more open and less closed in. You can really darken the sound of a humbucker by loading it with 50k or less. On the other side are single coils, better suited for driving difficult loads, like a classic fuzz face circuit.
sounded great with both. I think the bigger pots sounded better to me , brighter which I liked. was it new strings with both sets of pots? cheers
Same strings for both...only the pots changed - the pickups didn't move - so the strings weren't touched between the two segments. :-)
It’s all % and with everything you do your getting closer, do you think your try a four uncles abr-1 bridge?
They look very cool, but a) crazy money, and b) _most_ of my Gibsons were designed around the Nashville bridge, so I use the Faber ABR-1s which are made to Nashville dimensions with the relevant adaptors to fit the existing holes, so the only guitar I own where a true-to-original ABR-1 would actually fit is my ES-330...and that guitar sounds so good already that I don't think it's worth the expenditure! But...never say never :-)
It didn't sound like a slight change to me it was massive. The higher range pots definitely gave a natural vintage sound. The lower range sounded exactly like a modern off the shelf Les Paul. That said I think the nostalgic pots range was a bit to high and a little shrill. I'm about to have a harness made and I think Im going to use your values as a base but around 50k to 75k lower on each pot.
Also what range and type caps did you use on the nostalgic harness?
Do they make these pots for Stratocasters or Mosrite MK I guitars. Stratocasters usually take 250 k pots, but does raising the values up make a tone or volume difference at all? Can you do a video about using these pots, but the correct specific ones, on a Stratocaster? Does this stuff really make a difference at all? I am trying to learn how to get the hugest Jimi- SRV type tones possible..
Higher value pots on a Strat will have a more noticeable effect than with humbuckers - 500k's would let a lot of extra glassy high end though.
What pots do I get for a real midrange tone that doesn’t lack pick attack ??
Firstly, I admit to not understanding the science but the Standard pots sound like the Les Paul tones that I grew up listening to in the 60’s. Every example with the Standards sounded warmer, fuller and just more pleasant to my ears.
Higher values had a sharper and “scratchy” tone.
……I commented before I heard you say you liked the Higher value pots for that almost Stratty sound but wouldn’t a nice beefy single coil actually sound better in the mix than a super edgy humbucker?
Depends what tones you're going after. For me, I prefer having a brighter guitar and rolling the tone off than a darker guitar and cranking the treble on the amp.
ps: Totally agree with Rokhead11's comment!
The shelving value of a hybrid pot is minimal when put up against a Moore 500 pot.
These are the best.
Made in tasmania
Moore have 850s and 1100s
When put into an encore Les Paul…. It sounds like a gibson sg custom with maple body and aluminium neck.
There’s was a batch of these made with these necks (55) in 1961
They are the best gibsons….. but you’ll pay well over £950 for one
I find the high value pots to sound harsher and the certain growl of low mids is missing (or is overwritten by treble).
I think it‘s not enough to simulate the 60 years of wear only on the pots, the woods and all parts have settled and lost internal tensions. Materials and good fitting joints with very little tensions can vibrate more freely and transduce vibrations faster and with less dampening. That‘s a big part why old bursts (or most old guitars) sound fuller, rounder, more balanced, and with more low end and sparkly treble.
So, if the old guitars neck and body and all aged metal is warmer sounding, the higher value of aged pots are just perfectly complimenting this , resulting in that well known komplex and refined sound of old bursts.
IMO with a cryo tuning a well build Les Paul with PAF style pickups will get the closest sound wise to a 60-ies LP.😊
Somebody should analyse the copper wire, its isolation and the wax of old PAF pickups, how aging altered their composition. I can very well imagine that the isolation is getting brittle, the copper winds (after many hours of vibration and many sommer and winter seasons) to losen up a bit. Also: how different is old wax to fresh one? I think it might shrunk a tiny bit. All this losening of tensions are contributing to a more open, airy sound.
And THAT is what cryo tuning is capable of.
Just my 2 cents. Cheers!
Sounds good, I like the separate treble clang, and mid -bass growl. I like this type of Les Paul sound much more than how most guys play them. Most guys just have a generic distortion sound, instead of the separate clang and growl. However I can not tell a difference in the pots on these tiny computer speakers..That is the problem with small computer speakers. I am not hearing what you are hearing from the amp. What kind of amp did you use?.
Amp(s) used are always in the description - this video was a cranked JTM45. And yes, if you're wanting to hear subtleties don't use laptop/phone speakers!!
Joe, with the vintage linear taper pots, did you feel there was enough range on the low end to get a clean tone with a distorted amp? Thanks. What are you doing with the linear taper set? Would you be willing to sell that to me? Let me know and I'll send you my email and I can work out the price and shipping with you.
Oh yeah, just a slightly different feel compared to what I’m used to. Not looking to sell mine though - best drop Nostalgic a line if you’d like a set. :-)
so its the pots not the tone wood?
I use and have always used 1meg volume and 300kish tone pots. People call me crazy, but less is just too dark and not loud enough for me.
Why 300 instead of 500? Too bright?
@@flamedmahoganytable9749 1/3rd of the range doesn't do anything with 500k ones when using 1 meg pots
@@ScottyBrockway interesting, have you messed around with capacitor values??
@@flamedmahoganytable9749 Yeah I like .015 myself.
I'm going for 1 meg pots and treble bleed circuits in my Chibson gold top. The guitar itself is better than most real Gibson's so it definitely deserves good appointments.
Gibson is aware of using high value pots in their guitars, you will rarely find pots below 490 -500k in their guitars, i saw a video from master builders from the custom shop explaning that...
By 'high value' I mean 700/800/900k...not 500k; that's standard for most Gibsons, give or take a little bit of tolerance.
I like the higher value sounds but worry about diverging from base 500k values. Are you making the guitar difficult to use with pedals or amps - especially modern amps. Also any pro level recordings of bursts will be eq’d and may not be representative of what you hear in the room. Did you see Thomas Blu playing a 59 recently? Best recording and talk through of pafs I’ve ever seen (it was for no.1 guitar centre).
czcams.com/video/C4tMgsdSzR4/video.html
czcams.com/video/PoLDpgBiqpc/video.html
Both these links with 59 bursts used clean no pedals!!
Haven't noticed any change aside from the guitar being slightly brighter - doesn't seem to affect how it interacts with pedals or amps. Not _all_ recordings are EQ's/tweaked in the post mix....I never use any plugins on my videos, just balanced mics to get the sound as close to what I had in the room as possible. I'll check out the GC video :-)
Why would you ever use linear pots in the first place?
There's really no need to go over 550K with the correct audio log pots and correct taper.
Standard is deeper and thicker
Higher value has more warmth and more clarity.
Mutant Lefty..
Next he is going to squash bugs with layers from his eyes