Ep. 103 The Return of Chuck (Klosterman) A Vinnie Vincent Smackdown
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Episode 103, November 25, 2014. THE RETURN OF CHUCK! Chuck Klosterman was one of your favorite guests and he returns. But this time it is to discuss Vinnie Vincent! Chuck and Mark in one corner and Mike and Tommy in the other corner. Some really great deep and intense discussion on Vinnie Vincent in KISS and as a solo artist. This is sure to cause some debate online. For this Ain't Spencer's Crap Mark shares with us his Vinnie Vincent Invasion fan club membership kit.
Press requests please contact Izzy Presley Productions (PR/Media Relations) at www.izzypresleyproductions.com
Since launching a year ago Three Sides of the Coin has been viewed or listened to over 500,000 times. In the last year, Three Sides of the Coin has been joined by special guests including former KISS lead guitarist Bruce Kulick, the Black Veil Brides' Andy Biersack, Frank Munoz associate producer for Ace Frehley's Anomaly album, award winning songwriter Adam Mitchell, Ed Kanon (Peter Criss' drum tech), and Kevin Valentine (drummer on KISS' Psycho Circus album). Three Sides of the Coin was recently picked (October 2013) as a 'What's Hot' podcast by Apple's iTunes.
In the early '90s, Michael Brandvold launched the fifth ever website on the Internet devoted to KISS, KISS Otaku. He was the first to build, launch and maintain Kissonline.com (KISS' official web presence). Tommy Sommers has spent many years on the record show circuit selling memorabilia and meeting many KISS fans.
It's only our opinion... it's neither right nor wrong.
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Chuck is a great guest. Thanks for having him on again!
The idea that Vinnie isn't a songwriter really does need to go the way of Paul Stanley's voice.
In the late '80s, he was one of the few guys in the 'Hair Metal' scene who was actually able to sustain a living purely by licensing out his own songs. John Norum's *_only_* hit - 'Back on the Streets' - was written by Vinnie Vincent. If the guy couldn't write a song... people wouldn't have been _buying them_!
It's kind of the same silly argument I hear about Yngwie Malmsteen. "He just loves to solo, he can't write a real song".
Sure, slick. The 'Eclipse' album would like a word with you.
+The Rageaholic I fully agree .V.V. is a prolific songwriter...the man ... is pro lific
Hey Razor, ever consider doing a KISS Music Mythos?
I'm sitting here just amazed that four grown men can sit around for two hours discussing a silly rock band in depth. Then it occurred to me Ive sat here for two hours listening to them.
Great episode. Would never say Vinnie was vital to the band's survival in those days, but I'm glad both sides acknowledge his ability and talent as a writer...as well as his plain idiocy in how he lived his life! Lol!
Thanks guys
Another home run episode. As a long-time fan of Chuck, it is an absolute blast to have him back again. Thanks for continuing to give us excellent episodes. Happy Thanksgiving to you all!!
Klosterman is right about the change in Metal in the MID 80s and it was all motivated by money
This is Anthony Carosella. Chuck, the first Vinnie Vincent album didn't sell? It was the fastest selling debut album in the history of chrysalis records!!! Please do your research before you make statements like that!!!
I’ve been a Kiss fan since I was 10 (i’m 45 now) there was nothing in Italy those years. Kiss was over. I Never had tought i could listen one day people talking for hours about Them. You guys really have Passion.
The episode was epic!
Everyone made great points and stuff
I never even considered.
The Patty Smith comment by Tommy
Made me almost spit out my coffee.
Hilarious!!! You guys rule.
Hey guys, I love Chuck on here! I met him when he did a Q&A years back. I hit him with a question using Peter Criss' solo album as a reference and he didn't even blink. He answered with his own KISS reference, letting me know (while confusing the audience) how much of a fan he is. And my vote is for MARK and CHUCK! Klosterman is so clever and he can approach it from 20 different angles. His views on Vinnie are awesome.
As for the VVI albums, the production on the debut is horrible and low budget. That's a drum machine on the tracks and it's sped up a full step to make the guitar playing even faster. However, the first album is so over-the-top and unapologetic that it has a ton of charm. Also, the glam image really didn't fit the music. If you think about it, Poison was the top glam kings and the two bands couldn't be more of a contrast.
As for ASG, Dana Strum was the brains behind the band from the beginning. Dana brought in Mark Slaughter and did his best to bury some of Vinnie's solos (the opening bumble-bees right before the solo to "Ecstasy", for example) to make the band more mainstream and use Vinnie's biggest strength, his writing. By the tour, though, the band was burned out of Vinnie and broke up after the tour. Slaughter was formed and their song "Burnin' Bridges" was about Vinnie. It's worth a listen now, especially in retrospect and after current events.
In the meantime, I love the show. Here's to a couple o' hundred more.
And Mark! Open a freakin' museum already!
great show with chuck! he always has great insights and is always entertaining.
i don't think there was 1 thing that saved the band but i'm in the chuck and mark camp. VV really tightened up and focused the songwriting in a time where they needed some outside help. being a guitar player and a musician myself, there are certain chord progressions that VV uses a lot and they are all over COTN and LIU (more so on LIU).
so that, coupled with a change in producer and a total image overhaul all contributed to getting the band back on track
Just totally gained respect for Tommy after that Chrissy Hynde comment!
How the hell can anyone not like late 80s Whitesnake? Whitesnake 87 and Slip Of The Tongue are two of my favorite albums. Judgement Day and Slip Of The Tongue (the song) are both kick ass songs.
Mike, Vinnie may have only had 3 song writing credits on Creatures, but he actually PLAYED on 5 or 6 songs.
The VV Invasion logo looks a little too much like a Van Halen logo.
I'm not sure if you guys write songs?
It just seems really obvious to me what Vinnie's contributions were just by listening to the albums.
I heard lick it up (the song) and I love it loud, but I actually listened to the VVI albums in their entirety before hearing Creatures and Lick it up all the way through.
You can hear Vinnie's musical DNA in the Kiss albums, from his broken riff versus to his melody lines, to his lyrical style, etc.
I can also totally hear the difference between the writing on the VVI albums and Slaughter (even though in my opinion, Slaughter was a B-Level, yet more commercial VVI and sounded like they were trying to re-write Kiss tunes).
I can set down with you and play the albums and point out Vinnie's style.
If you listen to Black Sabbath "Heaven & Hell" you can hear what Dio brought to the band, right?
I can hear what Vinnie Vincent brought to Kiss in the same way.
The other points are:
1. Gene and Paul would NEVER give anyone more credit than they deserve ( I suspect they usually give less, especially when $ is involved).
2. Of all of the bad things Gene and Paul have said bad about Vinnie, they have never disputed his talent.
3. They would have never worked with Vinnie again if they didn't fell like they NEEDED him. After the watered down mess that was "Hot in the Shade" they needed something authentic, with edge and they weren't going to get it from Desmond Child or Vini Poncia.
This discussion/argument has always baffled me?
It seems really obvious and I played in a band for almost 20 years with a HUGE Kiss fan, he wasn't a huge Vinnie fan, but he still begrudgingly recognized the importance of Vinnie's contribution.
I've never understood why people deny Vinnie's inportance?
1. Misplaced loyalty for Gene & Paul?
2. The fact that Vinnie is Cray-Cray!
3. Disagreeing to disagree?
4. The fear of wigs? (no, wait that can't be it, because that would include other members of Kiss)
It really doesn't cheapen "Kisstory" for you guys, it just IS.
In the early 80's Kiss reinvented themselves and became relevant again by adding a new member, VInnie Vincent.
After he left (or was fired), each album after became less edgy, more pop, and more confused (Animalize, Asylum, Crazy Nights, Hot in the Shade) until they refocused on Revenge (which happened to be when they asked Vinnie back to help) then he left again and they made "Carnival of souls".
That is one hell of a "quality control" coincidence, don't you think?
If Vinnie wasn't such a great contributor, what would the chances be that after Love Gun, the three best studio albums out of 15 albums from 1978-Reunion all had Vinnie Vincent on them?
Gene Simmons (1978)
Ace Frehley (1978)
Peter Criss (1978)
Paul Stanley (1978)
Dynasty (1979)
Unmasked (1980)
Music from "The Elder" (1981)
*Creatures of the Night (1982)
*Lick It Up (1983)
Animalize (1984)
Asylum (1985)
Crazy Nights (1987)
Hot in the Shade (1989)
*Revenge (1992)
Carnival of Souls: The Final Sessions (1997)
In other news, when is Kiss going to start offering "KissKare" to the Kiss Army, as an alternative to Obamacare?
You just have to go to an in-network provider and pay you Kiss Ko-pay and you are good to go!
lol you sir are brilliant!
Welcome to the Vinnie Vincent vortex! Another great show and Chuck brought his "A"game. Happy Thanksgiving guys!
Great episode guys , I liked Chuck , I'm a guitar player about his age and shared some of his views . I think the statement that KISS is more interesting then most bands really rang true. There are different era's and fans for the different eras and that is what makes this band unique and more interesting than even the STONES.
The members do get performance royalties. I played with Derek St. Holmes and he got a check for all his performances on Ted Nugent songs despite the fact he only wrote (or got credit for writing) one song. So you do get royalties for your playing on songs. mark seems to feel he is a expert on all things music because he is been in bands. Where can I find the records of his bands? I would like to hear some of the hundreds of songs he is written. I keep hearing him say things that are NOT correct. So just asking.
Hi Michael it's Anthony Carosella, it's all a matter of opinion, totally respect u and the show
Yet another great show, thanks for bringing back Chuck, he is great. Actually the shows like these (when you dig deeper into the musical depths of KISS) are the reason I'm looking forward to hear. And Chuck is fantastic in this topic so are the three of you. These discussions are really intelligent, interesting but totally understandable even for lay ears. So thank you again it was awesome again as usual :)
On the topic I've got only a few things to say. I think Vinnie is a talented guitar player and songwiter and he could fit in KISS very well if he wanted to. And in my opinion he deserves credit for putting KISS back to the business with Lick It Up. So the problem with him is not his creative work or skills, but his personality. Actually he was suffering from the infamous W. Axl Rose syndrome years before Axl stepped onto the stage :D He always thought about himself as a huge rockstar before becoming one, that's the explanation of his behaviour on the stage and beyond. He could become really famous and big if he stays in KISS if he behave properly and submissive with his employers and the audience. And that's where he fucked up and I think that behaviour is responsible for he couldn't do it after KISS and for being honest his name means nothing nowadays in the music industry, only we KISS fans care about him. And it's actually sad because he was talented enough and had the chance to make it different but he could not live with it. That's the Vinnie story in my opinion. And I like his second record, it's not bad at all.
Thanks Guys 4 another great show. You are as diffierent of opinion as I remember Doc Magee is stating as quality on "Second Coming" for original line up of The Band. I believe your difference of opinion are really covering the colourfullness of The KISS Army.
Rock on!
Best epi in a while!
I gotta be THAT GUY and correct your correction: Dynasty was the last Kiss album to have vocals from all four members, and The Elder was the last album to have vocals from three members of the group. It's a week later, so I'm probably the 30th guy to write this, but I have to do it to preserve my sanity. Apologies!
After 3. replay of the episode, I believe to quality for a more In dept comment on it.. Chuck's part taking In the "battle" was no less that genius. Chuck's views and the questions he rose was extremely relevant and I just want to compliment you guys on the choise.
I remember the period after the release of "Music from The Elder" My buddies drew me up the wall, comparing "The Elder" to the newest Motorhead, Metallica and Girlsschool - and I felt "connerd"
Personally I remember listening to "The Oath", it was promising and me and my KISS fan buddy looked at each other and nodded in recognition to each other. After just read comments from "KISS Behind the mask", I was/ am kinda surpriced to learn, that the recording process was so "spread out" The recordings went on In Toronto and some in Ace's homestudio. Basically all Ace's work was done in his homestudio. I though until now "The Elder" was a group effort due to the storyline. When I read Pauls almost taking distance from the project. Reading the comments from Gene and Ace and Bob Ezrin, there is very little "Being on the same page" feeling.
Personally I find "Music from the Elder" a concept, that a band would release when allready concelidated manifesting status a band/ brand. KISS was in a "blind leading blind" situation, probably why they chose Bob Ezrin as producer. They'd probably was stuck in making a career descision whether to go back to the roots, trying to find a safe harbour or crossing the waters to Explore new coasts. I personally remember a confused NOT knowing what kinda track the band would take.
Here in Europe I remember there was a call to the fans from magazines to tell the band just much we wanted "Music from The Elder" to become a real movie and we were told that Paul Stanley were taking acting lessons. At the same there were rumours and photographs of Ace loaded and stories about a serious car accident. What a ride down Memory Lane; thanks to you Guys!!
Rock on, Steffen, Denmark
As always thank you Steffen!
vinnie was lead gtr on 6 songs for creatures, co-writer for 3...according to wiki. if you believe that. my first KISSPERIENCE was the pinball machine. the visual was so intriguing and they looked so amazing. when i heard them the music was undeniably great. so they have an incredible package and i can't see how anyone could separate the 2, let alone the band themselves, and only like them for a visual reason or a musical one. lick it up really does have vinnie's fingerprints all over it. at least creatures retained some of the classic KISS sound. i think vinnie was turned loose on LIU which results in a different style of KISS entirely. i make the case for vinne all for the one simple reason is that he wrote almost all of the VVI songs on the records (whether you like them or not) and they are more similar to LIU. i wouldn't say he saved KISS but i will say he opened the door for the KISS of the 80's.
Don’t get me wrong, love the show, but I can’t stand when Michael wants to ask “one last question.” Let Chuck go until he initiates wrapping up! He’s solid gold.
The only reason Kiss was popular before Vinnie is because Kiss knew, they had a premonition that they would be blessed with having Vinnie in the band, and knowing that gave them the confidence to succeed.
On the issue of all 4 guys singing on the earlier albums. Gene and Paul wanted Ace to sing from the get go, it's just that he was too shy to do it. It's well documented that Gene wanted Ace to sing Cold Gin. Great to see Chuck back.
Thanks Chuck Vinnie is awesome
This was a fun show guys. There's an interesting parallel with my other favourite band Thin Lizzy. Neither band were what I would consider Heavy Metal, I would always consider them both to be Hard Rock. But at a very similar time, 82/83, both released very heavy albums, Creatures and Thunder & Lightning, as returns from what were considered low points in their careers. Both bands were rejuvenated by new lead guitar players, John Sykes for Lizzy and Vinnie et al for Kiss. These albums were not a return to what they had done before but a venture into new heavier territory.Thunder had good reviews, commercial success and fan acceptance but it was unfortunately too late to save the band from splitting, at least Kiss were able to continue on.
Vinnie Vincent the dysfunctional gift that keeps on giving...
MARK!!! I agree with you! "IT'S MY LIFE" is a top 3 all-time KISS song and the fact that they never gave it a 100% push is criminal. IT'S MY LIFE is on par with ROCK N' ROLL ALL NIGHT. The biggest mistake of their entire career. Does anyone else think Paul squashed it because it's primarily a Gene song and would have further cemented him as the star of the band? And that knowing this, it was the beginning of Gene losing interest in KISS, knowing that Paul would hurt the band like that, to defend his own ego, started Gene's loss of interest? Curious to see what other people think about this. There MUST be a reason "It's my life" was squashed the song is undeniable, Paul's motive are worthy of serious inquiry.
I'm apparently one of the few that vividly remember buying and listening to 'The Elder' and, although I was confused as to what the hell was up with the album imagery, I genuinely loved the songs on that album. I didn't have friends or public opinion to bounce this off of- I genuinely loved the songs as well as the diversity of song types. Being an Ace fan I was bummed to find out how he was done with the band at this point. Anyway- to someone's point during this episode- I believe that if there had been much less 'mystery' around the whole 'Elder' concept- it would have done better commercially because, like many others I'm sure, there was way too much, "what the hell are they doing" going on.
I would have to put the tag team belts on Mike and Tommy after this battle. I think Vinnie was a great "ideas" guy, but there is no way the songs on Creatures/LIU would be as cool as they are without somebody else shaping/editing them to be that way. It was the same thing with his guitar solos. His inability to self edit is obvious when you hear the VVI albums. Vinnie helped KISS but he certainly didn't save them. Grab the leotard, Mark!!
As for Chuck, he is easily the most interesting guest you have on the show. He always comes out with at least thought provoking take on something. The whole section of the episode where he brought up KISS fans analyzing tour numbers really hit home with me. KISS fans are very unique in that way. Like Mike said, their success was validating. I would actually worry about the band when I heard they weren't doing well. I also worried about them when they took off the makeup. I wanted them to be successful, like I had this personal stake in the whole thing. I can't think of another band where the fans get so invested.
I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but you guys are like The McLaughlin Group of KISS. =)
...also I heard Vinnie used to slow down the tapes then do his guitar solo's to achieve Malmsteen speed. Listening back the guitar tracks DO seem altered on VV1 especially. Has anyone else heard of this? I tried it myself on a four track in the 80s.
Yes, he can play fast, but I believe the tunes are sped up a full step, too.
I became a KISS fan when I traded my older brothers hand-me-down shirt for a KISS Alive album when I was 8 in '77. Ace is my 2nd favorite member behind Eric Carr, but when Vinnie came in I embraced him fully. In & out of KISS. He had to deal with the CRAZY wigs and outfits and over all bad reputation, not me. Under my graduation robe in 1987, I wore a VV Invasion shirt. I have a pic somewhere. My good childhood friend and bandmate loved Vinnie so much he special ordered one of the 1st VV Jackson model guitars. It was SWEET! If Vinne were to tour tomorrow, I'd go see him. But Vinnie is clearly his own worst enemy. I like him as an entertainer and I think he is unique, but I would never do business with him. Not even for a $75 T-Shirt transaction.
One of my favorite episodes yet. I found it interesting that Chuck said he liked the stones song bitch.Gene said he took that riff ,changed the key and it became Deuce!!
A much as I would like to say the Minnesota Twins (Mike n Tommy) had the debate,Chuck's and Mark takes it for me.Articulate in their disection of what Vinnie brought to KISS and a total change of styles was a breathe of fresh air,to a time when the fan base was fading in the US.Creatures brought the band back towards what most KISS fans love,good old fashioned rock.A little heavier than the 70's era,but more thought out songs than Unmasked and The Elder.The Elder was meant to show the deeper side of KISS,to rival Floyds The Wall and the Who's Tommy.But was closer to Queens Flash Gordon approach.I would compare The Elder to Queens Hot Space album.you either love it or hate it as a fan,and it didn't make much of an impact in the charts.Personally i love the Elder for what it is,and enjoy blasting it out now and again.I would of liked more of an equal share in the song each member brought to each record,Creatures is a stella album like Lick It Up.I would like to see Danger,Rock'n'Roll Hell,Exciter played live.which would make it fresh on the tours,and leave out Let Me Go Rock'n'Roll.Vinnie probably contributed alot to the songs in my opinion,but you need to get Adam Mitchell on your show to clarify this debate.As for Gene songs between '85 -'88 were lame by anyones standards.Paul carried the KISS ship through this period and maybe Eric n Bruce could of brought some songs to the table,as Eric had a good voice.Similarities to Roger Taylor in Queen could be made to contributing to the band vocally(Mark mentioned).Thankfully Vinnie never did lead vocals on any of the albums he was involved in,as he was so off key live (Lick It Up Tour-Europe). Mark the other Whitesnake guitarist is Bernie Marsden,great bluesy guitarist.Again guys another great episode,which as fans we are enjoying immencely as the shows are getting longer.
Your welcome tommy. I have seen kiss 4 times in concert. Probably the best kiss show i saw was in hershey 2003 when they opened for aerosmith. They blew aerosmith off the stage. Kiss should have been the headliner. Do any of you guys own the kiss monster book? Any information on the contents of the book? So what was your all time favorite kiss show tommy?
Just for the record I love creatures.....their most underrated album
Chuck has the same speaking patterns as Quentin Tarantino. It's so weird.
By the way... People were fascinated by the Beatles transforming their costumes, image, style and paramountly the music long before any of the bands you mentioned...kiss, crue etc.
Adam Aroeste True, the Beatles invented the wheel. But dont mags look fuckin cool too?
ah jeez Michael at 19:40 is embarrassing ... what chuck just said explained exactly that....
yutuubfreak Explain what is embarrassing, it is the truth. Writing credit doesn't define who contributed what to a song and how much.
Michael Brandvold Using the same logic it doesn't rule it out either
but michael we all know gene and paul would totally not put someone down for songwriting credit if they only contributed a bit. (unless they would to make it look like a group effot. also very paul and genie)
1:09:30 Michael's stone-faced when Chuck says "I can't believe you guys don't like the first Vinnie Vincent record."
Love it Loud is a classic. They play things from different eras. I don’t want to hear the destroyer album or Cold Gin type songs all the time.
Mark......ughhh :(
Good show, guys.I'll just offer my two cents and my thoughts on Vinnie Vincent: I love Creatures and Lick It Up, in fact they're the only post- Ace and Peter record I can listen to top to bottom without skipping. He's not on every Creatures track obviously (co-writes on I Still Love You, I Love It Loud, and Killer; lead on Saint and Sinner, Keep Me Comin, Danger, I Love It Loud, Killer, War Machine), and it's really stretching it to say he saved KISS, but to his credit he was an important part of the group (says something when Lick It Up is one of only three albums with no outside writers).
That being said, when I heard VVI... let's just it was like seeing Bob Clark go from A Christmas Story to Baby Geniuses. I don't get angry at Peter's albums because Peter, I gotta be honest, is not capable of making a good album. Vinnie can make something good. He has no excuse.
Didn't Eric sing "Young & Wasted" from Lick It Up?
This is what I love about these guys. Clearly they had some differences of opinion. Did it get ugly? Was there name calling? It's a shame everyone can't conduct themselves like this. Great discussion dudes. Mark's laugh gets me every time =) Who saved KISS? The fans saved KISS.
Thank you Paul.
Paul Bennear Thank you, much appreciated
Chuck dropped a payload at 18:51
great thoughts!!
I find it hard to put words together about how I feel about Vinnie.
I for one, loved the character. I loved his sound and I loved his song writing.
I hear odds and ends about what he is like in "real life" but I'm not going to judge some one on things that may or may not be true. I base my love of Vinnie on what i have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears.
Any interview I've seen Vinnie in, he seems soft spoken, polite and intelligent.
I loved the first VV solo album, but also think those songs would have been much better with Paul and Gene singing them.
I also agree Vinnie was better when he was being (controlled) by Gene and Paul.
It's such a shame they couldn't get along :(
Gene, Paul, Vinnie and Eric will always remain my favorite line up.
Tommy, you had me at your disgust of Chrissie Hynde, but lost me only a few seconds later. Patti Smith is awesome! And a goddess, to boot. :-D
Following up: Listen to Radio Ethiopia. (Not the song. The album.)
Radio Ethiopia is the post-debut/pre-pop quintessential Patti Smith Group album. The string of "Ain't it Strange", "Poppies" and "Pissing in a River" will turn you into a believer. (Listen with headphones, if you can.)
All four sung on an album after love gun....all four sung on dynasty.
Why don't you guys give Vincent a call and ask him to be a guest???
Very interesting discussion, as per usual. However, I'm not sure how anyone can remotely say Vinnie saved KISS. Didn't you guys start the show by discussing how Creatures was such a bad selling album, and they were playing to 3200 people? Sounds like he almost put the final nail in their Kasket. If anyone saved KISS, it's whoever made the final decision to remove the makeup.
Hey guys. I am a fan of your podcast. It is so cool that you all have a show devoted to kiss. I have been a fan of kiss since i was a little kid. Crazy nights and lick it up and the exposed vhs tape was my introduction to the band back in 1989. Lick it up is still my favorite album in their catalog. Exciter is so amazing. That is a killer solo. Kiss was the first concert i saw back in march 1997 at penn state. I just do not care for anything they have put out since revenge. Sonic boom and monster and psycho circus and carnival were not that good. Psycho circus tour was awesome in philly 1998. The last time i saw them was in 2004 when poison opened in hershey.
Victor Halen Thanks
Special message: Vinnie Vincent helped Kiss a lot, and Kiss helped Vinnie Vincent with the character of the Egyptian Warrior. Vinnie Vincent was the heart and soul of Kiss during 1982 and 1983. Anything during Animalize and Beyond was nice but it was not as heavy as those past albums in which Vincent was involved, but the times had to change because they were changing music-wise. The times were glam rock, and it was more fluff than heavy even though the bands of the time were great, and Kiss was great too but pop rock was selling huge and Kiss had to join that Circus (money making machine). BranVold does not accept that Vinnie "made" Kiss during those two years. Hot in the shade is nice, but it's a dump if you compare that to Creatures of the night and to Lick it up even though they have "Forever." Hot in the Shade should have had more Forever songs as compared to song list it had because none of those songs were played on my local FM Rock station. Second, Vincent had so many opportunities to join other bands such as Skidrow, Rush, Danger Danger, Bang Tango, Trixter, White Tiger, Warrant, Winger, sign with Shrapnel Records, do an album or albums with Vinnie Moore, along with doing solo stuff with Tony MacAlpine. Vincent had the world in his hands, but he went elsewhere. It's really sad! He had so much potential! Unmasked, and The Elder if I am correct did not have Vincent and those albums were not big in America. Vincent is a musical genius but his timing was coming to an end in kIss due to his attitude. His invasion was very nice but that too came to an end due to the Grunge scene. Who would have thought that Hootie and The Blowfish, Nirvana, Alice and Chains, and Eddie Vedder's Pearl Jam would be on the radio more times than any glam rock band? The battle of egos did a lot of damage to many glam rock bands and the changing cycle to grunge also sent glam rock down the tube. Glam rock was practically dead by 1993 (because it was all Grunge on the radio and in TV). Kiss went through a slump from 1993 to 1997 If I am correct. They released Alive 3 back then but that was just horrible. They meaning Kiss should have contacted Vincent. I think Vincent should have stayed in the band because he is and was more talented than the founders of Kiss. They could have released more Creature of the night albums with him, you know, heavy albums. Vincent did save Kiss but many people don't see it that way. Vincent If I am correct has like four versions of "That time of year" and that is nice. Not many artists can do what he did! Creatures was supposed to have some guy from Mister Mister but he got like canceled and Vincent stepped into the job because he was "talented." Vincent came in and saved Kiss. You did not see Van Halen come in, nor the guy who plays in Cinderella nor John Bon Jovi. No one came into the band Kiss because they were not good enough to do the songs that Kiss wanted for that time, and Vinnie Stepped in and saved the day music-wise even if Brandvold disagrees! June 29, 2022. USA North America.
Lie much?
Paul and Gene need to get together with you guys and get to the bottom of all these questions. Not just an hour, it will need to be at least three x 3hour episodes where they let you guys drive the shows. Can you comprehend how big the audience would be??? And if they DID want controversy, Eddie Trunk could make an appearance haha
Last time Chuck was on he had a mountain dew shirt.This time he's clearly drinking it. Caffeine addiction or product placement? LOL
Mark keeps talking as if Vinnie wrote the songs by himself. The "Store" as Mark calls it...the menu ONLY has 2 songs on it from Vinnie era. I love it loud is a visual song to fit Gene's persona.
So just saw this video and some obvious points were never even mentioned. Just from listening to Vinnie's early demos tells me he wasn't the best songwriter that everyone thinks he is. He wrote some cool songs a long long time ago which you can hear on his demo. Then what happened? He played the demo for Paul and Gene and though they hated him, they wanted those songs or at least parts of them, the style. On the 8th day is a good example. Gene tore the original up and slapped his own thing on it. Then after Kiss, Vinnie does invasion and guess what, same demo songs being used. The farther he got from those original demo songs the worse the songs got and after the 2nd Invasion album, no more songs and Vinnie did nothing else except long solo songs nobody wanted to hear. Makes you wonder if he was even the sole write on those demos like Adam Mitchell, etc.
I'll always appreciate the Invasion albums because they make the Frehley's Comet albums seem to suck less by comparison. Creatures has 3 good songs surrounded by filler, but if Vinnie wrote the riff to War Machine then he saved KISS for about 4 minutes. Lick It Up is marginally better, and KISS saved Vinnie on the album by reining in his histrionics to a degree. Vinnie should have done an all instrumental project to get his own rocks off and please the shredheads, then work with the guys who sold millions as Slaughter on SONGS with solos instead of solos occasionally becoming songs.
As for who won, in a two hour discussion of Vinnie, there are no winners or losers, we're all just collateral damage.
Chuck wz right on the money! Michael sounds ok he's grasping at straws. Vinnie made the sound of kiss during his stay look how close his solo lips sound to kiss during his stay.
I've always thought songs like 'Twisted , Animal and Back On The Streets' sound like Lick It Up era KISS tunes. BOTS would have been amazing with an 1984 era Paul Stanley singing lead.. Ain't None Of Your Business from the WOW album also sounds like it could have been on Lick It Up. Vinnie' s contributions to KISS seem pretty obvious to me. Lick It Up is like a full on boner. Animalize to Hot In The Shade = limp noodle.
If Vinnie was that great of a song writer over all...then he should be on other artists records all over the place. I have not seen it anywhere...he was a part of a group of song writers on that songs. And if this was the case then Vinnie's solo releases would sound like Lick it up. They don't!!!!!!
Honestly I think Paul was a bit threatened by Vinnie's prowess as a songwriter to the point that he sabotaged him from continuing with the band.
I would strongly disagree that Sonic Boom and Monster were “awesome.” Just my opinion, or maybe my tastes just went in another direction. I ate, slept and breathed KISS since 1974, but once I discovered Venom and Mercyful Fate, Kiss was put on the back burner. I ran into a fellow KISS fan a few years back, and it helped to rekindle my love for the band. I played catch-up, album by album...until the last two releases which to me, lacked emotion. But it’s hard to believe that even the hard-core LOVE all of it.
enjoying the podcast as a new listener, but did someone say Sonic Boom and Monster were great releases? omg no. Psycho Circus was the last great release. Stanley stated, "the purpose of this album (sonic boom)isn't to let people know that we're still around - it's to let people know we can still knock out anybody who's out there!" ......….gotta hand it to Paul, a believer til the end and that's ok by me...
Great episode.
You guys are awesome, you can have discussions by staying respectful of the others opinions. It's really rare now. So I will call it a draw because I don't want to see Mark or Mike in tight clothes!!
The Vinnie auction is just insane, he's completely delusional. Elvis Presley or James Dean items don't sell as high and they're STARS and dead for 30+ years. I feel pity for anyone who's stupid enough to bid on any of those items.
I really respect Vinnie's work with KISS, he co-wrote some very good songs although like Mike says, we'll never know what was his involvement in those songs, but the fact that they asked him to come back for Revenge, means he probably writes more than a line or 2.
the denial in this episode =)
for christs sake he co-wrote over 50% of the 2 records he was involved in. He was CRUCIAL to thos 2 records.
Nobody can save KISS. You cannot kill what doesn't die. KISS has not been saved by anyone, but to deny Vinnie was THE GUY on those 2 records (even when he wasn't in the frickin' band on Creatures!) just pull your head out of the sand!!!
It's silly to deny Vinnie's contribution to KISS. It just goes to show how much ass is being is KISSed. Because it's clear he was crucial to those 2 albums. He was essential;. Without him, those 2 albums would be different because 11 of the songs wouldn't exist as they do today. From a writing standpoint if nothing else.
A movie can be acted out by anyone, but it must be WRITTEN by somebody in it's inception.
No. Vinnie did not save KISS. The 2 albums he played on took YEARS to "catch on". Creatures bombed upon release. Stop with the "ssaving KISS' thing. On a per album basis, Vinnie is more important than Ace. Got it?
There is no denial in this episode. How much of all those songs did he really co-write? Nobody knows the actual contribution. Might have been the whole song, might have been a riff. Vinnie sucks, simple as that. If you want praise him start your own show.
Well you are right. We don't really know anything, but as Chuck speculated ;) I think it's a little far fetched to think the other guys in KISS would allow Vinnie credit where it wasn't due.
Ace took 7 years to do what Vinnie did in 18 months in KISS as far as co-writes go.
We also know that Gene will demand writing credit for changing 1 or 2 lines in a song.
Guitar solos clearly mean nothing, otherwise Kulick and Frehley would be in the credits for just about every KISS song written during their tenure.
I'm not a Vinnie fan. In fact I think he is one of the lowest individuals ever associated in KISStory (think about that for a while...we've got our list of shady characters, low lives and rip offf merchants).... however I would never deny he was important.
Who cares? he has committed career suicide and the real thing probably isn't too far off either.... and this is sad but true, the only people who will know he has died are the legions of fans who hate his guts.
What a blood enigma.
GG aaron My speculation is as right as Chuck's. That is the point. We can all say what we want, nobody knows what is right. Nobody's career died any faster than Vinnie, such a "talented" person he amounted to nothing. Not sure that is talent.
Absolutely. I did try my best to make that clear in my last comment. I'm not trying to deny you of your opinion, Michael. I'm merely ramming mine down the throats of those who stands with their mouths agape wondering "Where does he get the balls?" ;)
we're KISS fans. It's what we do.
Happy Holidays!
(Merry KISSmas)
ps- watching the new episode now, it's a stone cold killer. As usual.
chuck is the smartest kiss fan in kisstory.
No
I think Vinnie had a lot to do with KISS surviving .. Adam Mitchell wrote some too true but the thing that tipped the scale was without Vinie there would have been no I LOVE IT LOUD
and it was based on a drum loop Gene found of E C
that was also the spark to create the sound and without Vinnie there would have been no lICK IT UP ,which was the perfect song for the era and change they made. .that had a lot to do with the album saling .obviously taking off the make up helped sales but without lick it up ,if they only had "all hells breakin loose " it would not have done as much.I love that song,its a fav of mine but it never resonated like lick it up did and still does ..
Great show guys.. Chuck is always enjoyable.. I can't stand the angry bee guitar players either.. Hopefully someday Vinnie can help do some writing for Kiss again..
what made creatures and lick it up and revenge albums heavier was ERIC CARR'S
a bassist and drummer have to be locked in as one and changes the sound add a shredder
23:30 Mark talks about the albums either side of the 2 albums Vinnie did.
It could be further said go either side of Revenge.
Hot In the Shade, a demo album of hair metal songs (admittedly half of it is great)
Then?
Carnival Of Souls (which took forever to come out).
Giving it some thought, I'm of the belief Carnival of Souls would've been better with Vinnie's contribution.
With all the talk of Vinnie bringing the "heavy", Carnival of Souls is their heaviest record, and no Vinnie.
I'd LOVE to see them work with him again, and yes get heavier. Make another "Lick It Up" with the new lineup. I'd be in Heaven! and I just know so would a lot of other people, it'd be a pleasant surprise. Okay, now I'm in fantasy land.
anyway...
on Creatures and Lick It Up.
Vinnie co-wrote 11 of 19 songs
Paul co-wrote 9 of 11 songs
Gene co-wrote 11 of 19 songs
and Gene is the only member to write a song on his own during this period, writing 2 songs single handedly on Lick It Up.
Maybe Gene saved KISS! ;)
chuck sure does have a lot of opinions about kiss music but on the vh1 special he said kiss will not be remembered for their music but will be for the idea of kiss, 81-85 brought maiden, venom, merciful fate, slayer and metallica let alone sabbath being reborn with dio and ratt and all that glam shit was not and is not metal , it was on the same level as bubble gum like the bay city rollers except the first wasp album which i still love, also chuck saying big kiss fans are not metal heads is wrong as i was a kid in the 70s who's parents had me listening to hard rock and metal from day one in 67 and i have followed the underground as much as kiss my whole life and to this day i live for death metal as much as kiss, never will listen to anything but classic rock and metal til the day i die and kiss and bands like cannibal corpse and kiss come before everything in my life
I agree to a point but doesn't the drummer 'write' the drum patterns for the songs? Paul, gene and ace didn't so who did? I agree to a point with what you guys are saying but its not always that clear cut
No the drummer doesn't always write the drum parts. How do you know the others didn't? Paul could write all the parts and simply instruct others how to play it.
Michael Brandvold I agree they don't always write the parts - and I KNOW paul can play a bit of drums and could tap out to point, but I don't think he would have the acumen to do it to the level needed song after song. I don't know maybe he does. I am in bands and nine times outta ten the drummer comes up with the drum parts. I might contribute to a point but i am not a drummer and don't have the level of knowledge that they have. We are both speculating tho - you and I both don't know for certain who wrote the drum parts for most of the song. I'd like to know.... I am not trying to be argumentative but it is interesting.
KISS sounding like KISS again?!?!?! Maaaaaark..........KISS NEVER sounded ANYTHING like Creatures of the night before it, as Chuck himself confirms, KISS was NEVER a "Heavy Metal Juggernaught" Creatures was a bigger departure from the traditional KISS sound than Dynasty was (And I think Dynasty was a logical step and evolution, not an entire changing of genre like Creatures was. I think Mark is typical of a lot of KISS fans who wished they were a heavy metal band, he is confusing memory with personal wish, he liked Creatures because it's what he wished KISS always was even though they never were.
Klosterman is the smartest man ever to rock.
Mark and Chuck wins..
Mike, break out the Crazy Nights outfit and tell Tommy to wear the "ankh" (or however the fuck you write that!!) make-up for the show!!!
Great show guys.. This Chuck guy's alright.
I am still mad at Chuck for his comments about KISS in "Metal" documentary. Chuck, yes, people were really trying to stop us kids from listening to KISS in the 70's -80-s, it was not some genius marketing ploy. It was not cute or funny at the time, it sucked. I feel embarrassed that his comments were so wrong, and he acted like some kind of reperesntative of the average KISS fan, but to me it was just embarrassing. I respect that chuck is a fan, but he was not the norm for KISS fans in the early days, I get the impression he kind of looked down his nose at the rest of us. Anyhow, sorry to be so off topic.
the best kiss songs are the ones vinnie was involved in .
Vinnie wants $60,000 for a belt!! Hmmm,buy 2 cars or a belt? WOW....
Chuck (Klosterman) sounds and talks like Quentin Tarantino.
Well your guest lost all credibility when he said the first Vinnie Vincent album had better songs than Creatures and Lick It Up. My jaw hit the floor on that comment.
Credibility with you, I am pretty sure he isn’t losing any sleep over that.
Actually he did. He had to drive to the drug store and buy some sleeping pills after reading my comment.
@@MichaelBrandvold Did you read Klosterman's piece on KISS for Grantland? He gave Creatures a B+, Lick It Up a B, and the first VV album an A+.
grantland.com/features/chuck-klosterman-kiss-hall-of-fame/
Funniest Vinnie price - a shirt for 10,000 dollars!! I could fly to Madrid ,have a fashion designer make me a replica for less than 3000 !! Gas the plane Phillipe,were off to Madrid!!
Right
The Ghost Musician so true, long k
The Ghost Musician long live the king of the night
This was all cool and we respect all of your opinions, and LOVE the show, but of course I have my opinions too :-), Since guitar players are the conversation - from a musician AND a music fan aspect, Ace is seen as influential and a good guitar player, but also kind of the CC Deville of his era. Nothing ground breaking, nothing virtuoso, nothing even really "new" from album to album, and while flashy and millions of Japanese go nuts over the cheesy firecracker in the guitar thing, let's face it.....well I won't say it. .......but no one in KISS is really seen THAT dramatically as musicians, those not in the know think so, and that's okay too. Eric Carr and the new guys would be the exception. We all know Vinnie was talented, but I am more fascinated by the personality and the oddness. Like he's a narcissistic psychological study (maybe a good Masters thesis for someone).
So the talk about guitar players. I saw Malmsteen headline once at the Long Beach Arena and he had tons of passion and loves his instrument and with Jeff Scott Soto was incredible that night (BTW the BEST that night of the 6 bands was Black and Blue with Thayer (there's my six degrees connection). But he loves his instrument just like the rest of them do even like Angus. It's a matter of taste and whats palatable to our ears.
With EVH I think we are all kind of starting to put him in the Sharon Osbourne, Don Henley, Ritchie Backmore, "as$hole treat people horrible while crying over your millionaire lot in life and screw anyone you can out of THEIR share" file and sorry guys, Paul is getting pretty close to it too (does he like ANYONE or have a good thing to say about ANYONE....what an unhappy fellow just like EVH).
Paul REALLY turned me off after his book. So did the Eagles documentary......they THOUGHT people would see their way, and feel their disgust for Felder when they just ended up looking worse and like total buttheads (well, more so then the LIARble democRAT that Henley already was.....oh wait, I forgot. The new thing is "social democrat" but "fiscal republican" so they can still tell us to hate the rich while they get richer and fatter)
ahh.....I digressed........sorry
I'm in for a buck on the contract.
I dindt like the first VVI that much.i thought ALL SYSTEMS GO was great ."ashes to ashes" and everything on there i thought was great .. love kills ,that time of year .. it was more song oriented than guitar everywhere..
I truly dislike Creatures. I don't think it's all because of the songs though, because in actuality, they really aren't that bad. I'm finding myself disliking albums because of the way that they are produced. My three least favorite albums are Hotter than Hell, the Elder and Creatures. The songs especially on Hotter than Hell are amazing, but I just can't stand to listen to it. All three sound muffled and have way too much compression going on. Can we ask Kiss to just re-record all three albums?
Not sure I completely agree with you. HTH does sound awful, and The Elder could be better. On the other hand, I think the production on COTN is fantastic, especially the drums. Massive!
would not work because eric singer can not hit the drums like eric carr and never will
Yeah, can't agree about Creatures, especially for it's era. A very unique sound all the way.
true, Eric Singer is more talented. I know that is not what you're saying but as a drummer, it is clear. I could not stand when Eric S came in! I had Eric Carr posters all over my wall so I am still STILL a huge fan but if you are educated, which judging by your comment you are not, then you would know that Eric S is technically a better drummer. Btw, I do not judge anyone for being middle American stupid, it is what it is my man. You can't help it. P.S, no hate or responses k? I am not the type to come back and read em so if you want to waste your time go ahead.
You have bad taste.
Robert Fleischman saved Vinnie Vincent Invasion.
Mark Slaughter saved VVI.
Who saved Robert Fleischman?
Journey? Not sure who he sang with after VVI. He would be a great guest for the show.
Mark is incorrect. Creatures WAS NOT an uptick over The Elder, COTN was a total flop, just like Elder. What is Mark talking about "Building on the success of Creatures" THERE WAS NO SUCCESS. Paul Stanley said himself "people were listening with their eyes, not their ears" LIKE IT UP went Gold, because of the image change, period. And what is all the nostalgia for Vinny's songwriting? He only co-wrote 3 songs on Creatures, and further to the point, everyone has their own opinion, but for years I recall LICK IT UP being one of KISS's worst record. Having co-written 8 of 10 songs is NOT a feather in ANYONE cap, it is (In my opinion) a BAD record. And one more thing that Mark is way off on.....LICK IT UP and ANAMALYZE sound exactly the same (Quality is subjective, but the genre and style don't change one bit) Oh god, Mark is soooo wrong on so much, KISS reached the end of a Popularity cycle in 1980, their downturn had NOTHING to do with music. Oh, GOD! MORE B.S! Lick it up, is played just as often as Heaven's on fire, other than "Lick it up" NOTHING from that record is played, ........and wait a second.....VINNY DIDN'T WRITE WAR MACHINE, That was Gene, Brian Adams and Jim Vallance...Vinny didn't even PLAY on it.
This is Anthony Carosella , Vinnies record outsold them all do ur research
Who cares, Vinnie is dead and over. Living in the what happened to and where is he now book. Besides, his albums blew.
Jesus Christ, calm down....why do you write this stuff? Always defensive and negative when opinions differs from yours.