Well. I am not from the USA. Don’t have any connection to PS Audio at all , In fact , I have a McIntosh gear and Focal Speakers. In my opinion , Paul makes great videos to enjoy. I know that a salesman part is included inside these videos but I take what needed to take for me only. Paul doesn’t need to publish so much videos and I think he love to share his knowledge with the Audio community. I thank him for that. In our world today , Lots of violence , Health issues and earthquakes , Paul is a lightning section to enjoy and forget all negative news around us.
Well, Ronan, you are right there is a lot of violence, health issues, earthquakes, and even worse happening around the world. One of the worst things happening around the world today is the use of social media to spread disinformation. This is often accomplished by the use of "half-truths", or the twisting of facts to distort the truth. People are being deceived and are unaware that what they are receiving is deceptive information designed to make them react to the deceiver's wishes. Unfortunately, a lot of that happens on this channel and a lot of people are fooled into believing some things that are not true for the purpose of taking their hard-earned money for a handful of "magic beans".😒
I live in a neighborhood of around a hundred houses in a city of around 80,000 people in northern Alberta, Canada. I use Chord, conrad-johnson and KEF. My sources are supplied by the Stellar Power Plant 3, and I HEAR a definitely better sound. I've tried plugging direct to the wall and passive power conditioning before. I'm not letting go of my Power Plant. I plan to get a higher capacity unit to accommodate my power amp.
Paul......I have a Fifth-order Harmonic noise (I believe courtesy of a sub-station or pole transformer outside) causing problems and buzzing in my preamp/amps . The component power supplies just are not filtered for this. While I have an isolation transformer in front of my preamp....it only alleviates about 85% of the problem. Is a Power Plant going to better filter/remove this from my power?
Why haven’t I heard anywhere about using a battery based power plant with constant output and frequency? You don’t have to care about any transformation and this power plant can be used as a power source for other equipment as well (if you’re picky, maybe not while you’re listening to your music).
Hi paul I want to split the signal from my cd player using a gold plated t splitter ie one into the plus and one into the minus The question is will that degrade the sound. Thanks
I had a P3 and P12. They made my systems sound better at my old (25yr) home. They didn’t help at my newly built home. I now have a dedicated transformer in my yard and dedicated 20amp lines to my audio systems.
Interesting discussion. Thanks for sharing it. Some sceptics may try to say Paul's answer is self serving. My only reference is an audio buddy whose ear I trust swears by the improvement in sound from his system resulting from the PS Audio Power Plant. Myself, I have experimented with DIY power filters and absolutely decided that any type of inductor or ferrite bead reduces dynamics and that an isolation transformer does the same. I do use a DC blocking circuit, an MOV to block spikes and some low value caps to filter out high frequency noise. To me those combined with DIY power cords make a significant improvement. My bet is the power plant is best.
Sorry but your friend is being fooled by his lighter wallet. If you look at most devices they will be rated from 110 to 120 volts and from 50 to 60 Hz. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what A.C. power is coming into any device the first thing the power hits is a power regulator consisting of an isolation transformer and caps to store the A.C. for conversion to D.C. usually through diodes to power the device. No conditioning of the A.C. will change this process or change the "sound" output of the device.
As an outside observer of both ASR and PS Audio regarding the back & forth about the P12 : A lot of this confusion could have been prevented if direct communication happened with the goal of reproducing the results in a scientific manner. A second goal would be to clarify and quantify what particular aspects were being discussed, and whether these affect the intended function of the product. Analysis and drawing conclusions from this can happen only after this first step of reproducing (or failing to reproduce) those results given the same test setup. We should all try our best to arrive at the truth while putting aside our own egos and emotional attachments to ideas and stories that we might be telling ourselves. No need to add any "ad hominem" type of attacks, just talk about the data. It's OK to be wrong... we're all human, and our own senses often don't tell us the truth. Placebo effect has been established scientifically for a long time, so we must be aware that any listening tests are subjective in nature and thus subject to our own cognitive biases. It's natural and sometimes even desirable to be misled by our senses, that's how optical and auditory illusions work. However, when we're talking about these things from an engineering perspective, ideally we should attempt to do our best to remain objective and let the data do most of the "talking". Often, a very difficult part of being an engineer is to cultivate a sense of detachment to your own creations and designs. Not everything we will create in our career is going to be the best or most close to perfect design possible. Perfection is a tempting mirage, but it only truly exists in the mind. So what if the P12 has power losses due to impedance at the high current outputs, so long as this is documented and transparently disclosed to the consumer. Does 8% to 10% losses matter in the real world? Maybe, maybe not depending on the application. The 2nd law of thermodynamics says that anything we plug into a power outlet is going to have losses as a natural consequence of physics. Could it be made the most efficient possible, approaching but never achieving 100%, sure! That's often "good enough". Can we ever get 100% efficiency? No it's not possible due to the inevitable heat & energy losses. Could a newer design do better with less impedance and power losses at the "high current" output? Most likely yes. So what if it adds some of those lower frequency harmonic noise to the AC output, given that other experiments plugging other devices into those outputs results in no audible differences. Given that most audio devices will have their own power regulator circuits which do their best to throw away any of that noise anyway (AC to DC converters with full bridge rectifiers & voltage regulators, AC stepdown transformer stages, filters, etc...). As long as we are all on the same page as to the design's specs, limitations, and the physics and engineering principles involved, then all of: manufacturer, consumer, and reviewer will all be in agreement about the scientifically provable characteristics and limitations of such a product. Whether or not an AC voltage power re-generator & regulator has audible performance differences in the audio frequency range does not seem to be scientifically proven, although many of us may trick ourselves into thinking so (even if we're well-informed electrical or audio engineers). What is scientifically established about such a device is that it's very good at regulating the AC voltage level during brown-out or over-voltage scenarios (whether these are due to high current draw from other on-premises equipment, or problems from the power company's supplied amplitude levels being inconsistent or not equal to 120V AC). If that's the problem to be solved, then perhaps the P12 is the right tool for the job. If the problem to be solved is a very nebulous claim of audible performance difference, then there needs to be objectively provable evidence to support that. Many devices similar to the P12 exist on the market, with even wilder claims. Often, the problem that a consumer thinks is solved by such a power conditioner device, is actually solved by simply plugging devices into the same power strip due to the effect of "star grounding" because it often can solve ground loop voltage differences which otherwise would occur if each piece of gear was using different outlets or even different branch circuits. Given that problems with ground loops and the "Pin 1" problem have been around for a long time, and are still _very misunderstood_ , it's likely that we are only beginning to fully understand the other complexities involved with the myriad permutations of gear and interconnections, and the problems this can cause. Recent AES papers on these topics are not that old, and happened within the past 10-15 years. For comparison, how long ago was it that we were taught in school that all dinosaurs didn't have feathers? In 1996, the first fossil evidence of a dinosaur with feathers was found. Since then, others have followed. Another example: How many of us were taught in school that the tongue has either 4 or 5 different taste zones? (e.g. sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and sometimes umami) As it turns out, all areas of the tongue can sense all of these tastes. The original research behind that myth / misconception was revisited in 1974, yet still that misconception was propagated through schools up until the late 1990s! So, thus (at risk of offending the pun-haters among us) we must take all the knowledge that we think we know with a "grain of _*salt*_". 😁
I've tried a Power Plant 5 and Power Plant 12, both sounded inferior to the similarly priced IsoTek Titan and Audioquest Niagra 5000 power conditioners. The Power Plants, in my system at least, despite lowering the noise floor, made music sound slighty metallic where as the IsoTek and Audioquest units provided a full bodied, rich sound. When contemplating mains products, always audition before buying because the same units can sound very different in different setups.
holy cow Paul! the discussion is just nuts....since I'm still eating breakfast I will take the time to thank you for this channel and your insights and make one little comment... Does anybody remember the book from the 80's "in search of excellence"? there's a chapter in it that describes one of the rules of excellence - great leaders seek out greater leaders...i.e. they don't much spend time on the 'B teams' of their day. I guess what I'm saying is talented people find themselves in the company of other talented people. After 20 or 30 years of that I generally trust what they say. I'd say Paul is in good stead here...Some other "noisy" folk in the audio business? (did i just pun there...?)....not so much...
Remember that saying that is often attributed to Mark Twain? "It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled?" There's no real evidence to show that Mark Twain ever said that but it is still true nonetheless. Don't let Charisma, override the facts.
While the sonic benefits depend on the system used, the most noticeable is that conditioners, filters, DC blockers, isolation transformer etc. tend to either compress dynamics or, at their best, get rid of noise or hum without negative side effects, whereas a regenerator is going to have a positive effect dynamics (or none). Blind testing, the consensus has been that one sounds bigger and more powerful than the other (there's not measurable difference in SPL - I always make sure to match levels making comparisons, and so far, there's been no need to so here). Other differences (e.g. soundstage, a sense of forwardness etc.) seem to depend on the individual listener and of course the system. My recommendation is to arrange a demo in one's own before jumping to conclusions. While I haven't yet heard a regenerator have a negative impact on the sound of a system (provided it's oversized, which it should be, especially if used with an amplifier), the improvement may be negligible and irrelevant, and as mentioned before, there may be both pros and cons using conditioners, filters, a DC blocker or isolation transformer (I've heard e.g. a DC blocker get rid of hum, but the sound of the system got so much worse, it wasn't worth using). Besides, the same amount of money may be better invested elsewhere in a system, in fact, I'd go so far as to say this is true of most systems I have heard.
Paul is very honest and tells the truth about power plants! But you have large capacitors inside an amplifier to prevent volt swings. Amplifiers that use SMPS power suppmy do not have this problem and also have a large input noise filter! An expensive power plant is not the first thing you should spend a lot of money on in a hi-fi system, no. It does too little to justify the high price!!! you must have a fairly perfect sounding sound system before it is worth buying expensive power plants
I've come to the conclusion that the AC power conditioner units are the AC equivalent of placing one or two Farad capacitors across the DC cables feeding high power car audio amps
At best that's what this is in a very expensive tin case. You'd be just as well to buy a 1500w UPS. Those actually do clean up power and are 1/10th the cost of this nonsense.
@@ipaterson no .... these devices are just carry over supplies if the power fails. They don't have the ultra low source impedance that a very large capacitor bank has
I'm not sure if power plants are truly necessary for anyone other than EXTREMELY resolving systems (my jury is still out), but how using one would create noise makes no sense to me at all.
Hmmmmm - was regulation the original claim? if so, fine - perfect. if noise reduction is an original claim, then sorry it is far, far worse with a power plant
Isn't 99% of what Paul explained done by the AC-DC circuitry in any amplifier? Some are better than others of course, but a good amplifier should already do all he said.
Power supplies are expensive, cost considerations are high. When you buy more expensive amps you are generally getting bigger power supplies. You make it sound like any amp with a power supply gives perfect power.
The thing with ASR is all they care about are the numbers, then they say numbers that low aren't audible. So why are you measuring them and making sound quality judgement on them?
I don't bother with these so called "power plants". I run my Hi-Fi from it's own diesel generator, as that gives it total isolation from the mains grid.
As an owner of a PS10 Power Plant, let me just say that I was *very* skeptical when I first put it into my system about six years ago, but was utterly blown away by the impact it had. Going forward, a Power Plant (whether the PS10 or an other model) is a non-negotiable must-have in my system. And, frankly, I couldn't give a fig what somebody's noise measurement has to say about that.
I got a gaincell dac pretty recently from them and when I posted about it on Reddit so many people were talking shit. I actually broke the thing out of negligence and they fixed it under warranty. The p12 is on sale this month and I venture I could try it out and if I don’t see the results they would take it right back with no problems (I’m just an hour away from Boulder) The guy who sells equipment closer to us in Fort Collins has something against PS Audio for some reason and my mom is loyal to him lol. Just upgrading to audio quest power cables made a big difference so I imagine everyone who “tests” these scientifically didn’t even give it a good test with their ears.
A noise filter consisting of coil and capacitor can be negative as they can act as a rubber band at high current draws due to the noise coil. this is when you use a regular old transformer and a lot of current draw pulses
@@Wizardofgosz Adding a lot of capacitors to make up for the peak demands of the PA and the limitations of what the wall outlet can provide might help. On 120v if suddenly a peak of 12.5amp is needed it will be 6.52amp at 230v. The house wiring might have trouble to instantly meet that demand. Adding a big reservoir of power to the supply might explain the difference. In this calculation I went from an peak demand of 1500watts. I wonder if there will a noticeable difference when using a small amp….
@@Wizardofgosz Your power supply in any piece of audio electronics regenerates NOTHING. Get your facts, definitions, and lack of knowledge straight. How about showing some data. Don't tell me about that ass, Amir!
@@Wizardofgosz If someone buys a Power Plant and can clearly hear the difference it makes, good or bad, how exactly would you make a credible argument that the difference isn't real?
Paul, I don't share your kind-hearted view of Amir. He actually said in his review of your Power Plant that it is not truly a regenerator and all you are doing is adding some sort of "compensating signal". He accuses you and everyone making cables, etc of fraud.
Amir is an arse and every vid I've seen of him he hates the product. Yet he has a section on his website where he purports to like at least 35% of items he gets in. At least he liked the Class D Audiophonics amp.
of course, who makes a thing that does not do anything? you go ahead and make a thing, spend a lot of money and time then get a result you are happy with. now you can not tell anyone about it works?
@@sudd3660 My post was meant to convey some amusement at the fact that PS Audio chose this particular question to respond to, make a video about, and title: “Are Power Plants Worth it” . This is amusing to me because the answer is entirely predictable given that they make the product, and therefore it literally goes without saying from their perspective. However, I would add that PS Audio may have done themselves a disservice by phrasing the question in this particular way. Why? Because there is no debate whether the product “works” . As you point out- It does. But the specific rhetorical question they posed: “Are Power Plants iworth it?” is entirely another matter. As you will see from some of the other comments, several people cast doubt on whether it is, indeed, worth its several thousand dollar price tag. Therefore, my amusement is compounded by the fact that they have succeeded in answering a question that need not be asked, while simultaneously inviting debate on the questionable value proposition of the product in question. I hope this very detailed clarification covers all aspects of the issue at hand, is helpful to you, and assuages any anger or concern you may have had regarding my comment which, again, was primarily made in jest.
@@sudd3660 No, in fact jokes are not necessarily sensible by design. They are often literally nonsensical. Notwithstanding, as far as I am aware they fall under the realm of free speech and are a vital part of human discourse. I hope I’ve disabused you of the notion that my comment is somehow either unproductive or disallowed in some way. If not, please feel free to comment again. However, for the third iteration of this delightful exchange, it would be helpful if you could refrain from judgement (as in your first response) or sarcasm (as in your second) as neither is a polite or productive means of communication.
Well said Paul, ASR is all about assuming that SNR is the only measurement that correlates to sonic performance, and rarely considers transient effects and essentially using the most important instrument your ears which are far more sensitive to what matters to us and non linear
Actually what Paul said was very deceptive and he avoided the fact that ASR did much more than just test the SNR. In fact, ASR also tested Paul's claim about "lowering the impedance" and using Paul's own video showing how Paul's claim of the Power Plants lowering the impedance and that the Power Plant actually had impedance equal to or greater than direct power from a rather large power strip with many other devices plugged into it. But then, ASR pointed out the fact that the Power Plant or any other power device couldn't possibly have any effect on a piece of audio equipment because all audio devices (DACs, Turntables, Streaming devices, or even amplifiers) have their own built-in power regulators that isolate the A.C. from the component AND audio devices don't use A.C. the A.C. is converted to D.C. so there is no possible way for an A.C. conditioning device to have an effect on the performance of the audio component. As far as transient effects, that is purely the function of the capacitors within the audio device's power supply not anything outside of the device as long as the A.C. is within the device operating parameters (typically 110 V to 120 V, 50 to 60 Hz).
@@JonAnderhub Possibly but AMIR and ASR never seem to discuss what things actually sound like, its merely a measurement assessment, this implicitly assume that the measurements totally correlate to what we hear, which is naive and suggests we have understood all there is to know
Sorry Paul, I hate to be ruthless and unsubscribe but the last video on this subject from Amir at Audio Science Review speaks utter truth. I'm an electrical engineer myself, but the audiophile in me doesn't understand how you're getting by with all this. The fact you're selling a $6,000 device that really has nothing to do with establishing your power rails makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
I am sorry, Brad, but what the ASR video completely missed is the actual purpose of a Power Plant. Voltage regulation. Not noise cancellation. Amir missed the point of the device entirely.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thanks Paul, that comment may have been a little too harsh. I will stick around awhile and listen to the alternative viewpoints. Thanks.
@@garyharper2943 -- If you look up "self-serving" in the illustrated encyclopedia you'll find a photo of Paul McGowan. It's impossible to dislike such an affable guy, but his explanation attempts are not to be trusted.
Why don't you just go high frequency switch mode power supply 3,000 watts running at 145kHz Then your noise output is nowhere in the audio band. And cheaper to manufacture and sell hopefully.
Want to save some money on power plant? Put on some music, close your eyes, imagine the music is empowered by the world's best audiophile level power plant, and there you are, money saved.
Couple of weeks ago I discovered PS Audio were having a crazy sale on the P12 Power Plant. I have long wanted to try one out. I have a quite revealing all digital system c25k and had been using an Audioquest Niagara 1200 power conditioner. Wow! The P12 gave an immediate and significant improvement. Time by Pink Floyd, the chimes going off always seemed a bit muddy. So much going on but now everything sounds distinct. The best way I can describe the improvement of my system I was very happy with to begin. It’s like so much more came forward in the mix of songs. If I’d never connected a power plant I would never have thought about it but once you do, goodness! Bass is freakin amazing It says the harmonic distortion is 6-7%. Must be a lot as it’s near the meter limit. The incoming sine wave also looks copped off. I have a meaty Cambridge Audio Edge A amp driving Elac Adantes but the P12 tells me I’m drawing a steady 200W with occasional rises to c300W, way below the P12’s limit. I watched Audio Science Review on the P12 but was always going to try it. Some people accuse Paul of snake oil. What kind of snake oil salesman offers a trial at home and will even pay return shipping if not happy?!! The engineering debate is way above my head. All I know is my system is now at a level never before achieved and I am so grateful to PS Audio for what they do and their commitment to excellence in sound reproduction.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thank You Paul for all you do. For all the naysayers there’s an order of magnitude more who have a deep appreciation for your mission.
So many people quick to tell you and give you 100 reasons why it won't work, have never even tried it to see if it does work. People that have used it, usually have pretty good things to say about it.
@@Pete.across.the.street Now tell mee why should i even entertain the idea of paying 5000 dollars for a powerplant when you first need to at least upgrade your electrical in your house??? I would dare to bet that no real audiophile could make the distinction in a real blind test…If you can not measure it at the speaker terminals you as a human van not hear it…It is just a verifiable fact that you can not hear the difference and you won’t show a difference in a real blind test..
@@justkiddin1980 you don't need to upgrade the wiring in your house, that's the whole point of the power plant. Who verified this fact? Everyone that has actually tried it hear improvements. If you can't measure at the speaker terminals, you can't hear it, is a bunch of BS.
Just goes to show even if some "reviewers" have fancy expensive measuring equipment doesn't mean they know how to use it. Some people should leave that to the experts that know what their talking about. I'm still trying to figure what service they provide. Thanks Paul!
Amir has a degree in Electrical Engineering and has a pretty extensive electrical background including serving as a Vice President at Microsoft. He knows how to use the equipment and based on his experience and education he would qualify as an expert. The service Amir provides is real testing of audio products to see if the claims the companies make are true or not so people like you don't get fooled by grandfatherly charismatic snake oil salesmen.
@@JonAnderhub I have a degree also. Does t mean I know how to use it or what to look for in measurements. He may have been smart in the Microsoft world but he should leave audio to the experts. Some of the stuff he spreads I sorta cringe at and new folks to our hobby will unfortunately believe it. Measurements are not everything. Their a tool when used correctly. Some have even said is has some sort of adjenda reviewing stuff. I won't get I to that. Not the first of his so called reviews that have been called I to question by manufavters. Lust loom at his review of the chord tt2 and scaler review and watch what robb watts gives in response to his so called review. I'm not a chord or ps audio fanboy but been in this hobby long enough to know one should leave the measurements to experts like John Atkinson of stereophile. I made a mistake of visiting audio science review a while back. It was quiet toxic and didn't leave a good impression. I want this hobby to grow. Not like that. What people usually mean by snake oil is products they font have a open mind to that actually may help like cables and ppwer conditioners/regenerators. I have had experience with all and they all are beneficial in a resolving system. If you don't have a system resolving enough I would not recommend it.
@@brandonburr4900 -- Amir was also an executive level engineering manager focused on audio and video at Sony before joining M$ -- IOW, he's an "expert" whose job was supervising other experts! I guarantee he has an order of magnitude more technical knowledge about how sound reproduction actually works and how to properly use SOTA measurement gear than Paul, who is essentially self-taught when it comes to the technology he sells and depends on his employees and outside consultants for design engineering.
@@editorjuno he may have credentials but it doesn't neccessarily mean he knows what he is measuring. The audio science zealots I call them basically dismiss anything that doesn't measure well. Heck any any cheap Chinese piece of gear measures well these days. Don't sounds good but they promote it as all you need. All those Chinese companies like smsl, topping, etc are what I call flavour of the month gear. I have seen the way Amir "reviews" stuff. After I watched him review a new piece by a well respected manufacture I lost all the respect I had left for him. How would you like to have been launching a new product and sent to him for very incomplete review. And again the manufacture said he didn't know what he was measuring. It hurt that companies sales.
@@brandonburr4900 -- Amir know exactly what he's measuring, and most of what he tests gets sent to him by their owners or has been purchased himself. Every piece of gear I've chosen based on ASR reviews has worked out extraordinarily well except for a Topping DAC that eventually failed outright -- but Amir does not and cannot test for long-term reliability, so that failure isn't on him. By way of contrast, the few pieces of gear I bought based on "high-end" aficionado Steve Guttenberg's subjective reviews were disappointing, to say the very least. At least in my case, who is trusted is based on experience -- and I certainly would *never* take the word of a company's CEO about that company's own products!
At last, an easy answer question: No! Regulating AC power from a wall socket is entirely unnecessary, your amp (or whatever) does that without any fuss or problem. A dedicated Power Plant Regulator is a huge waste of money.
I was waiting for somebody to reply like you did. Paul has never made a clear, concise explanation as to why there is all this blowback against power plants. Now the cats' out of the bag. This technical explanation is not in the instruction manual, it's never been talked about before but today it's been finally revealed.
@@stimpy1226 It doesn't need to be in the instruction manual, it's clear what a Power Plant is supposed to do. The point is, it's entirely redundant - the amp already handles any variations in AC supply when it's converted to DC. Its an entirely unnecessary step, and one that'll set you back thousands of pounds, crazy. It's kind of like the Victorians and their grape scissors. A completely unnecessary contraption, but if people wanted them, heck, we'll make 'em. Actually, the grape scissors at least do what they're supposed to.
@Douglas Blake True in the vast majority of cases. And unless you live in an area where power supply is a real issue, and brown outs occur (which excludes the UK, virtually all of Europe, Canada, Australia, most of the US, so basically the vast majority of where high end high powered amps would be bought and run) then a Power Plant is entirely unnecessary.
@@Pete.across.the.street Have I tried Power Plants? There's no need, my amp does the AC to DC conversion just fine. Follow the evidence, not the babble. I'll also confess I've never tried breathing underwater or hitting my head with a hammer cos, y'know, science.
Amir isn't serving his own interests as he clearly points out in his testing and his videos. He has many videos of products that he doesn't carry (he doesn't run an audio company) that have very positive reviews. Amir is also fine with people proving him wrong and has extended to Paul the opportunity to show him evidence that his conclusions are wrong. Paul to date has refused to show proof that his product(s) perform the way he says they do.
All talk, no proof. Show us the measurements of the output of your amplifier being fed by the powerplant! It's that simple! But can you show any positive results? Probably not; otherwise you would've shown the data already.
Do a video to prove it make the music comming out of my speakers better. Show us something to back up what you say. You only talk but show very little ( basically nothing).
You do know that Amir holds a degree in Electrical Engineering and was a Vice President at Microsoft. If he were to testify in a court of law about his conclusions the court would recognize him as an expert because of his qualifications.
ASR, in my experience, misses the point in the main. I was not a believer in power regeneration devices until I bought a PS Powerplant 3. I bought it with a 30-day return ability in mind. I planned to return the device as soon as I got it and found it did nothing to improve the SQ of my system. Boom. Wrong. large improvement I can not, will not, live without. ASR's founder doesn't listen. He tests and throws out numbers that back up his preconceived opinions.
Amir doesn't have preconceived notions when performing tests on audio equipment. Many of Amir's videos show various audio equipment pieces living up to the manufacturer's specifications. However, even with no testing done, it's a scientific\engineering fact that the PS Audio Power Plant can not possibly have any effect on the quality of the sound because, even as Paul points out in this video, manufacturers of audio equipment build power regulation into their devices and audio equipment doesn't run on A.C. The A.C. is completely isolated from the audio device (all audio devices by the way, including DACs, Amplifiers, turntables, streaming devices, computers, etc.) so the condition of the A.C. can not possibly have an effect on the audio device's operation.
@@JonAnderhub And you know the PowerPlant cannot have a positive effect without trying it - right? With zero experience you judge it "worthless." Talk about preconceived and subjective. Of course, Amir, like you has preconceived notions about the merits of all devices. Go back to ASR where everyone will always agree with you completely. Regardless of personal experience.
I would love to see some blind tests…blindfolded people with the exact same system only with and without that device…I do not think they would be able to “hear” the difference…
Your attacks on Amir Majidimehr of the Audio Science review are well documented. What isn't well documented is your proof that Amir's tests and conclusions are wrong. You like to selectively dismiss certain facts such as the Power Plant adding noticeable noise and try to convince people that your Power Plant is better because it lowers the impedance. Amir clearly shows with your own video that the impedance on the "low current" connections of the Power Plant was significantly higher than the specifications you claim and the impedance was actually very close to the impedance of the power strip you were testing on. Your attack on Amir over the higher impedance of the high current connection, the connection that would actually be used for amplifiers, is also well documented. What you fail to do PAul is actually prove that Amir is wrong, and by the way, Amir is really open to you proving that he is wrong. For those that want to claim "tests prove nothing it's all about the listening" then you really should pay attention to the real conclusion that Amir comes to which simply stated is that Power Plants and voltage regenerators of any type are simply a waste of money and totally unnecessary because manufactures expect their devices to see "dirty power" and build voltage regulation into the power supply of the individual devices and that the devices don't use the A.C. but convert the A.C. into D.C. to power the device.
Amir is ignorant. To him nothing expensive makes a difference. In his book low jitter and low noise is negligible, but mitigate that and noise on a resolving system and Wala it makes a huge difference. It's like telling an engineer that a little unbalanced on a turbine is negligible.
Well he does own a pair of dan clark $4000 dollar headphones. It seems he did not mind shelling out as his measurements prooved they are great headphones.
You obviously know nothing about Amir. Amir's testing is non-biased and if you actually watched his tests you would see that he has both praise, as well as, scorn for products, regardless of their price range or the manufacture. Furthermore, Amir is open to being proven wrong and invites challenges to his testing with valid proof. That is something, Paul McGowen, will not do.
That's funny how you say "lets keep the comments civil" and in the very next sentence your hurl insults at the "minion of audiophiles that would not prefer to listen to the sound." The facts of the matter, the truth is, there is absolutely no scientific, or factual way that the Power Plant can make any difference in the sound output of any device simply because the Power Plant has no actual connection to any electrical device. The Power Plant or any A.C. source is completely isolated from the device by the voltage regulator of the device. It's not an opinion, it is a fact that is indisputable and a matter of electrical engineering.
This is why people who measure and not listen drive me nuts. If you say it measures better, sure, I'm sure it does. But does it sound better? They are not the same thing, within reason.
And this is why people who don't pay attention to testing drive me nuts. If you actually paid attention to the testing you would understand that this PS Power regenerator or ANY other power supply or regenerator couldn't possibly make any audio device sound different or better. Any and all A.C. is isolated completely from any and all audio devices by the internal power regulator in the device. All manufacturers of audio devices (CD players, streamers, DACs, turntables, and amplifiers,) are aware of "dirty power" and build internal power regulators to compensate for such power. Additionally, audio devices don't use A.C. power but convert the power into D.C. So outside power conditioning can not possibly affect the "sound" of an audio device it's impossible.
I would love to see you perform some real blind tests then…If the output at the bindingposts are measured to be exactly the same, the only answer can be that they are the same..
@0:53 "Amir is a good guy". Paul, that good guy is a cable misinformation spreader. Amir tells his viewers that cables do not affect sound quality; that it is a scam. Putting the word "science" in the name of his channel, does not make him a scientist. Amir is not a scientist. That is a red flag, just like someone calling their channel a doctor's channel, when they are not a doctor. Amir is a guy that impresses people with his testing equipment, and his shop talk, just as a used car salesman can impress people that know little or nothing about cars. Amir uses his channel to feed audio trolls what they want to hear. Amir will not sit down in your listening room (or anyone else's similar listening room), to test the cables that he bashes. I have challenged him to do so, and he refused. A scientist will confirm their tests with an actual listening session, using the proper lab equipment. And a room, with professionally set-up FR30 speakers, is the lab that Amir refuses to include in his testing. Paul, as hard as you work to impart audio knowledge and improve sound quality in all areas of music recording and reproduction, people like Amir cut you off at the knees. Perhaps you were not aware of how he operates, such that you called him a "good guy".
Amir not only has a degree in electrical engineering but has had a very impressive career, including being a vice president at Microsoft. Amir's testing methods are very valid a repeatable by anyone doing testing and more importantly Amir is open to any valid testing methods or evidence that doesn't agree with his conclusions. Amir does, in fact, use proper testing equipment, and explains what equipment he uses, and how his test is performed, so that anyone can duplicate his testing or dispute his conclusions based on legitimate testing methods of their own. Additionally, Amir does perform "listening tests" as well. If you actually paid attention to Amir's testing, you would see that Amir never sets out to disprove any manufactures claims and has some very positive tests and conclusions about some audio equipment.
@@JonAnderhub "Amir not only has a degree in electrical engineering but has had a very impressive career, including being a vice president at Microsoft." I know two lawyers that have impressive degrees, and they disagree and argue the law, often. Which one's law degree was giving to her in error? Supreme Court Justices disagree on the law. Doctors disagree on treatments. How can that be, when they have the degrees hanging on their walls? Doesn't their degree make them right? Yet, they disagree with one-another. Assuming you can validate your assertions about Amir's education... he is not a scientist -- which is what I wrote in my opening comment. Calling his channel a science channel, inferring that he is a scientist, is deceptive. Amir is no more a scientist than Bill Nye the Science Guy. "Amir's testing methods are very valid a repeatable by anyone doing testing..." My mechanic repeatedly tested my brakes. He inspected the pads and calipers over and over. He kept getting the same conclusions. And his conclusions were correct. My other mechanic tested the car's master cylinder, and found it to be faulty. So mechanic #1's tests showed no problems. Yet, there was a problem. Mechanic #1's tests were correct, and repeatable. But it was the test that he did not do that mattered. If you do not perform the test that will reveal the problem, then you are wasting time. And when you intentionally avoid performing the test that is pertinent to the subject at hand, then you are deceptive. "Amir does, in fact, use proper testing equipment, and explains what equipment he uses, and how his test is performed, so that anyone can duplicate his testing or dispute his conclusions based on legitimate testing methods of their own." See brake test, above. "Additionally, Amir does perform "listening tests" as well." The equipment used for a listening test "is" the lab equipment. When Amir refuses to listen to Wilson Alexx V speakers, or Vandersteen Seven speakers, or PS Audio FR30 speakers, or similar quality speakers, then Amir is not using lab equipment that is capable of returning proper or accurate results. "If you actually paid attention to Amir's testing, you would see that Amir never sets out to disprove any manufactures claims and has some very positive tests and conclusions about some audio equipment." Even con men will tell the truth. Even stick-up men sometimes earn their paycheck. The issue is not with what Amir does right. The issue is with what Amir does wrong. Amir insists that cables do not affect sound quality. Amir is wrong. Amir can present dozens of tests that show that any properly functioning cable is as good as a quality, high-end cable. All that means is that Amir is not testing properly. If Amir sat down and listed to Vandersteen's System Nine set-up, and swapped between Walmart cables and Audioquest's WEL cables, Amir would know that he missed something in his testing, because the change in sound quality would be slap-in-the-face obvious. A person that is deaf in one ear would hear the difference. So Amir, for all of his shop talk, is not testing properly -- and perhaps intentionally so. He has pushed the "all cables sound the same" mantra so many times, that for him to admit he was wrong, seems to be something he does not the spine to own up to. So he always refuses to listen on the right stereos (the right lab gear). Our ears are lab equipment. Our ears can hear qualities that nothing in Amir's lab can measure.
Ya know Paul was crossing his toes when he said Amir's a good guy 🤣
He attempted to say some other nice thing…but said “idk” lol
Well designed amplifiers do the job you describe. Power conditioners are a questionable solution in search of an actual problem.
Well.
I am not from the USA.
Don’t have any connection to PS Audio at all , In fact , I have a McIntosh gear and Focal Speakers.
In my opinion , Paul makes great videos to enjoy. I know that a salesman part is included inside these videos but I take what needed to take for me only.
Paul doesn’t need to publish so much videos and I think he love to share his knowledge with the Audio community.
I thank him for that.
In our world today , Lots of violence , Health issues and earthquakes , Paul is a lightning section to enjoy and forget all negative news around us.
Well, Ronan, you are right there is a lot of violence, health issues, earthquakes, and even worse happening around the world.
One of the worst things happening around the world today is the use of social media to spread disinformation.
This is often accomplished by the use of "half-truths", or the twisting of facts to distort the truth.
People are being deceived and are unaware that what they are receiving is deceptive information designed to make them react to the deceiver's wishes.
Unfortunately, a lot of that happens on this channel and a lot of people are fooled into believing some things that are not true for the purpose of taking their hard-earned money for a handful of "magic beans".😒
I live in a neighborhood of around a hundred houses in a city of around 80,000 people in northern Alberta, Canada. I use Chord, conrad-johnson and KEF. My sources are supplied by the Stellar Power Plant 3, and I HEAR a definitely better sound. I've tried plugging direct to the wall and passive power conditioning before. I'm not letting go of my Power Plant. I plan to get a higher capacity unit to accommodate my power amp.
Imagine the new advertisements:
Power Plant - more noise than what you get from the wall
Thank God that people dumb enough to think like that do not have money to buy PSAudio equipment. So no worry about your imaginary "advertisements".
I recall back in the days people talked about testing audio equipment during the night as it was less noisy.
This point -- about available power -- which is often overlooked, is extremely important. Thank you.
Paul......I have a Fifth-order Harmonic noise (I believe courtesy of a sub-station or pole transformer outside) causing problems and buzzing in my preamp/amps . The component power supplies just are not filtered for this. While I have an isolation transformer in front of my preamp....it only alleviates about 85% of the problem. Is a Power Plant going to better filter/remove this from my power?
If you ask Paul whether _any_ PS Audio product is worth it, the answer is inevitably going to be an enthusiastic "Yes!"
and that's why you should be careful with trusting these videos
Or understand that he’s passionate about what he does and makes great products as a result.
@@TECHNICKER_Cz the only way to find out is to buy the gear unfortunately
Best to try it out in your environment. They have a very generous no questions asked return policy.
You have to consider economies of scale when talking retail price. It ain't Sony.
Why haven’t I heard anywhere about using a battery based power plant with constant output and frequency? You don’t have to care about any transformation and this power plant can be used as a power source for other equipment as well (if you’re picky, maybe not while you’re listening to your music).
so should the power plant be plugged into a power conditioner to have the cleanest power + the most stable and lowest impedance output?
Hi paul I want to split the signal from my cd player using a gold plated t splitter ie one into the plus and one into the minus The question is will that degrade the sound. Thanks
I had a P3 and P12. They made my systems sound better at my old (25yr) home. They didn’t help at my newly built home. I now have a dedicated transformer in my yard and dedicated 20amp lines to my audio systems.
Interesting discussion. Thanks for sharing it. Some sceptics may try to say Paul's answer is self serving. My only reference is an audio buddy whose ear I trust swears by the improvement in sound from his system resulting from the PS Audio Power Plant.
Myself, I have experimented with DIY power filters and absolutely decided that any type of inductor or ferrite bead reduces dynamics and that an isolation transformer does the same. I do use a DC blocking circuit, an MOV to block spikes and some low value caps to filter out high frequency noise. To me those combined with DIY power cords make a significant improvement. My bet is the power plant is best.
Sorry but your friend is being fooled by his lighter wallet.
If you look at most devices they will be rated from 110 to 120 volts and from 50 to 60 Hz.
The fact of the matter is that regardless of what A.C. power is coming into any device the first thing the power hits is a power regulator consisting of an isolation transformer and caps to store the A.C. for conversion to D.C. usually through diodes to power the device.
No conditioning of the A.C. will change this process or change the "sound" output of the device.
@@JonAnderhub Wrong.
@@alfonsodelafreg259 What exactly is wrong?
What is wrong is that the Power Plant is not a "passive" conditioner for starters.
@@SJMessinwithBoats "gibberish"
So what is more important a power conditioner or a power regenerator. ?
As an outside observer of both ASR and PS Audio regarding the back & forth about the P12 : A lot of this confusion could have been prevented if direct communication happened with the goal of reproducing the results in a scientific manner. A second goal would be to clarify and quantify what particular aspects were being discussed, and whether these affect the intended function of the product. Analysis and drawing conclusions from this can happen only after this first step of reproducing (or failing to reproduce) those results given the same test setup. We should all try our best to arrive at the truth while putting aside our own egos and emotional attachments to ideas and stories that we might be telling ourselves. No need to add any "ad hominem" type of attacks, just talk about the data.
It's OK to be wrong... we're all human, and our own senses often don't tell us the truth. Placebo effect has been established scientifically for a long time, so we must be aware that any listening tests are subjective in nature and thus subject to our own cognitive biases. It's natural and sometimes even desirable to be misled by our senses, that's how optical and auditory illusions work. However, when we're talking about these things from an engineering perspective, ideally we should attempt to do our best to remain objective and let the data do most of the "talking". Often, a very difficult part of being an engineer is to cultivate a sense of detachment to your own creations and designs. Not everything we will create in our career is going to be the best or most close to perfect design possible. Perfection is a tempting mirage, but it only truly exists in the mind.
So what if the P12 has power losses due to impedance at the high current outputs, so long as this is documented and transparently disclosed to the consumer. Does 8% to 10% losses matter in the real world? Maybe, maybe not depending on the application. The 2nd law of thermodynamics says that anything we plug into a power outlet is going to have losses as a natural consequence of physics. Could it be made the most efficient possible, approaching but never achieving 100%, sure! That's often "good enough". Can we ever get 100% efficiency? No it's not possible due to the inevitable heat & energy losses. Could a newer design do better with less impedance and power losses at the "high current" output? Most likely yes.
So what if it adds some of those lower frequency harmonic noise to the AC output, given that other experiments plugging other devices into those outputs results in no audible differences. Given that most audio devices will have their own power regulator circuits which do their best to throw away any of that noise anyway (AC to DC converters with full bridge rectifiers & voltage regulators, AC stepdown transformer stages, filters, etc...). As long as we are all on the same page as to the design's specs, limitations, and the physics and engineering principles involved, then all of: manufacturer, consumer, and reviewer will all be in agreement about the scientifically provable characteristics and limitations of such a product.
Whether or not an AC voltage power re-generator & regulator has audible performance differences in the audio frequency range does not seem to be scientifically proven, although many of us may trick ourselves into thinking so (even if we're well-informed electrical or audio engineers). What is scientifically established about such a device is that it's very good at regulating the AC voltage level during brown-out or over-voltage scenarios (whether these are due to high current draw from other on-premises equipment, or problems from the power company's supplied amplitude levels being inconsistent or not equal to 120V AC). If that's the problem to be solved, then perhaps the P12 is the right tool for the job. If the problem to be solved is a very nebulous claim of audible performance difference, then there needs to be objectively provable evidence to support that.
Many devices similar to the P12 exist on the market, with even wilder claims. Often, the problem that a consumer thinks is solved by such a power conditioner device, is actually solved by simply plugging devices into the same power strip due to the effect of "star grounding" because it often can solve ground loop voltage differences which otherwise would occur if each piece of gear was using different outlets or even different branch circuits. Given that problems with ground loops and the "Pin 1" problem have been around for a long time, and are still _very misunderstood_ , it's likely that we are only beginning to fully understand the other complexities involved with the myriad permutations of gear and interconnections, and the problems this can cause. Recent AES papers on these topics are not that old, and happened within the past 10-15 years.
For comparison, how long ago was it that we were taught in school that all dinosaurs didn't have feathers? In 1996, the first fossil evidence of a dinosaur with feathers was found. Since then, others have followed. Another example: How many of us were taught in school that the tongue has either 4 or 5 different taste zones? (e.g. sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and sometimes umami)
As it turns out, all areas of the tongue can sense all of these tastes. The original research behind that myth / misconception was revisited in 1974, yet still that misconception was propagated through schools up until the late 1990s!
So, thus (at risk of offending the pun-haters among us) we must take all the knowledge that we think we know with a "grain of _*salt*_". 😁
Any power conditions/plants with transformers in are terrible ideas as they add loads of noise to the circuit. This is factual.
I've tried a Power Plant 5 and Power Plant 12, both sounded inferior to the similarly priced IsoTek Titan and Audioquest Niagra 5000 power conditioners. The Power Plants, in my system at least, despite lowering the noise floor, made music sound slighty metallic where as the IsoTek and Audioquest units provided a full bodied, rich sound. When contemplating mains products, always audition before buying because the same units can sound very different in different setups.
💀💀💀💀
holy cow Paul! the discussion is just nuts....since I'm still eating breakfast I will take the time to thank you for this channel and your insights and make one little comment... Does anybody remember the book from the 80's "in search of excellence"? there's a chapter in it that describes one of the rules of excellence - great leaders seek out greater leaders...i.e. they don't much spend time on the 'B teams' of their day. I guess what I'm saying is talented people find themselves in the company of other talented people. After 20 or 30 years of that I generally trust what they say. I'd say Paul is in good stead here...Some other "noisy" folk in the audio business? (did i just pun there...?)....not so much...
Remember that saying that is often attributed to Mark Twain?
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled?"
There's no real evidence to show that Mark Twain ever said that but it is still true nonetheless.
Don't let Charisma, override the facts.
While the sonic benefits depend on the system used, the most noticeable is that conditioners, filters, DC blockers, isolation transformer etc. tend to either compress dynamics or, at their best, get rid of noise or hum without negative side effects, whereas a regenerator is going to have a positive effect dynamics (or none). Blind testing, the consensus has been that one sounds bigger and more powerful than the other (there's not measurable difference in SPL - I always make sure to match levels making comparisons, and so far, there's been no need to so here). Other differences (e.g. soundstage, a sense of forwardness etc.) seem to depend on the individual listener and of course the system. My recommendation is to arrange a demo in one's own before jumping to conclusions. While I haven't yet heard a regenerator have a negative impact on the sound of a system (provided it's oversized, which it should be, especially if used with an amplifier), the improvement may be negligible and irrelevant, and as mentioned before, there may be both pros and cons using conditioners, filters, a DC blocker or isolation transformer (I've heard e.g. a DC blocker get rid of hum, but the sound of the system got so much worse, it wasn't worth using). Besides, the same amount of money may be better invested elsewhere in a system, in fact, I'd go so far as to say this is true of most systems I have heard.
Congratulations on 200 000 Subscribers!
Whattt are those gorgeous chairs?
Thanks for this one. Decades as an audiophile and this is the first good explanation of the Power Plant that I've heard. Very clear! Thank you! 👍
you need to search for older video that paul said that his power plants does all the things and eliminats all the noises
well its probably one of the only threads ive actually read right down to the bottom. jees ! there's a lot of " for " and " against " on this topic
Solar powers the batteries up, inverter makes the dedicated power for the Power Plant, feeds high end priced cables and now your rockin.
Paul is very honest and tells the truth about power plants!
But you have large capacitors inside an amplifier to prevent volt swings.
Amplifiers that use SMPS power suppmy do not have this problem and also have a large input noise filter!
An expensive power plant is not the first thing you should spend a lot of money on in a hi-fi system, no. It does too little to justify the high price!!!
you must have a fairly perfect sounding sound system before it is worth buying expensive power plants
Totally agree ! For places that have erratic power sources (like in rural areas or overseas), it is easier to justify.
I've come to the conclusion that the AC power conditioner units are the AC equivalent of placing one or two Farad capacitors across the DC cables feeding high power car audio amps
At best that's what this is in a very expensive tin case. You'd be just as well to buy a 1500w UPS. Those actually do clean up power and are 1/10th the cost of this nonsense.
@@ipaterson no .... these devices are just carry over supplies if the power fails. They don't have the ultra low source impedance that a very large capacitor bank has
I'm not sure if power plants are truly necessary for anyone other than EXTREMELY resolving systems (my jury is still out), but how using one would create noise makes no sense to me at all.
Before I invest in a power regenerator, I plan on having an electrician install a dedicated circuit with 10 gauge wire to see what that does.
Hmmmmm - was regulation the original claim? if so, fine - perfect. if noise reduction is an original claim, then sorry it is far, far worse with a power plant
Isn't 99% of what Paul explained done by the AC-DC circuitry in any amplifier? Some are better than others of course, but a good amplifier should already do all he said.
Actually 100%
Power supplies are expensive, cost considerations are high. When you buy more expensive amps you are generally getting bigger power supplies. You make it sound like any amp with a power supply gives perfect power.
@@bradp686 Any amp will do.
@@ryanamendt8363 I bought a cheap amp for my magnepans and it started smoking after five minutes. It had good specs.
What a great channel! We really needed something like that🔥
Thanks! Glad you're watching.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio MeToo... 🤣🤣🤣
Writer hears a “big difference”
Making the entire Planetary Human Inhabitants happy is a Challenge.😀
The thing with ASR is all they care about are the numbers, then they say numbers that low aren't audible. So why are you measuring them and making sound quality judgement on them?
You clearly don't understand anything.
@@ryanamendt8363 So your broke, I get it.
@@bradp686 And you can't spell. What depths of ignorance will you reveal next?
omg Paul what have you done. 😂
I don't bother with these so called "power plants". I run my Hi-Fi from it's own diesel generator, as that gives it total isolation from the mains grid.
this is the way
As an owner of a PS10 Power Plant, let me just say that I was *very* skeptical when I first put it into my system about six years ago, but was utterly blown away by the impact it had. Going forward, a Power Plant (whether the PS10 or an other model) is a non-negotiable must-have in my system. And, frankly, I couldn't give a fig what somebody's noise measurement has to say about that.
Let us know when the check arrives in the mail.🤣😋
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind What a sad existence you must lead.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind Ass.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind Right on!!!
I got a gaincell dac pretty recently from them and when I posted about it on Reddit so many people were talking shit. I actually broke the thing out of negligence and they fixed it under warranty. The p12 is on sale this month and I venture I could try it out and if I don’t see the results they would take it right back with no problems (I’m just an hour away from Boulder) The guy who sells equipment closer to us in Fort Collins has something against PS Audio for some reason and my mom is loyal to him lol. Just upgrading to audio quest power cables made a big difference so I imagine everyone who “tests” these scientifically didn’t even give it a good test with their ears.
Well we make REALLY expensive ones so of course they are!
A noise filter consisting of coil and capacitor can be negative as they can act as a rubber band at high current draws due to the noise coil.
this is when you use a regular old transformer and a lot of current draw pulses
Noise coil? I missed that component in school.
@@christophero1969 I believe Mr. Ford is speaking about ignition coils.
The slickest snake-oil on CZcams... gotta love it!
Another audio electronics designer chimes in!
Have you got one !
It might make a difference where you live. The difference between a 120 vs 240 volt and the quality of the grid itself might be a big factor….
@@Wizardofgosz Adding a lot of capacitors to make up for the peak demands of the PA and the limitations of what the wall outlet can provide might help. On 120v if suddenly a peak of 12.5amp is needed it will be 6.52amp at 230v. The house wiring might have trouble to instantly meet that demand. Adding a big reservoir of power to the supply might explain the difference. In this calculation I went from an peak demand of 1500watts. I wonder if there will a noticeable difference when using a small amp….
@@Wizardofgosz Talking about instantly supplying the power in microseconds
@@Wizardofgosz Your power supply in any piece of audio electronics regenerates NOTHING. Get your facts, definitions, and lack of knowledge straight. How about showing some data. Don't tell me about that ass, Amir!
@@Wizardofgosz Wrong again.
@@Wizardofgosz If someone buys a Power Plant and can clearly hear the difference it makes, good or bad, how exactly would you make a credible argument that the difference isn't real?
If you keep watering them .. they will grow 🌳🌳🌳!!!🤣🤣🤣
A well engineered audio system also includes well engineered power supplies that won’t need a power plant:
Paul, what are you talking about...
All nice...then you see the price...
and you think that probably you are better off investing that money in a better amplifier
No.
Paul, I don't share your kind-hearted view of Amir. He actually said in his review of your Power Plant that it is not truly a regenerator and all you are doing is adding some sort of "compensating signal". He accuses you and everyone making cables, etc of fraud.
Amir is an arse and every vid I've seen of him he hates the product. Yet he has a section on his website where he purports to like at least 35% of items he gets in. At least he liked the Class D Audiophonics amp.
Amir is right.
Prediction: "Yes" says the maker of PS Audio Power Plants..
of course, who makes a thing that does not do anything?
you go ahead and make a thing, spend a lot of money and time then get a result you are happy with. now you can not tell anyone about it works?
@@sudd3660 My post was meant to convey some amusement at the fact that PS Audio chose this particular question to respond to, make a video about, and title: “Are Power Plants Worth it” . This is amusing to me because the answer is entirely predictable given that they make the product, and therefore it literally goes without saying from their perspective. However, I would add that PS Audio may have done themselves a disservice by phrasing the question in this particular way. Why? Because there is no debate whether the product “works” . As you point out- It does. But the specific rhetorical question they posed: “Are Power Plants iworth it?” is entirely another matter. As you will see from some of the other comments, several people cast doubt on whether it is, indeed, worth its several thousand dollar price tag. Therefore, my amusement is compounded by the fact that they have succeeded in answering a question that need not be asked, while simultaneously inviting debate on the questionable value proposition of the product in question. I hope this very detailed clarification covers all aspects of the issue at hand, is helpful to you, and assuages any anger or concern you may have had regarding my comment which, again, was primarily made in jest.
@@edd2771 so your comment was a joke? how sensible way of speaker to other people......
@@sudd3660 No, in fact jokes are not necessarily sensible by design. They are often literally nonsensical. Notwithstanding, as far as I am aware they fall under the realm of free speech and are a vital part of human discourse. I hope I’ve disabused you of the notion that my comment is somehow either unproductive or disallowed in some way. If not, please feel free to comment again. However, for the third iteration of this delightful exchange, it would be helpful if you could refrain from judgement (as in your first response) or sarcasm (as in your second) as neither is a polite or productive means of communication.
Well said Paul, ASR is all about assuming that SNR is the only measurement that correlates to sonic performance, and rarely considers transient effects and essentially using the most important instrument your ears which are far more sensitive to what matters to us and non linear
Actually what Paul said was very deceptive and he avoided the fact that ASR did much more than just test the SNR.
In fact, ASR also tested Paul's claim about "lowering the impedance" and using Paul's own video showing how Paul's claim of the Power Plants lowering the impedance and that the Power Plant actually had impedance equal to or greater than direct power from a rather large power strip with many other devices plugged into it.
But then, ASR pointed out the fact that the Power Plant or any other power device couldn't possibly have any effect on a piece of audio equipment because all audio devices (DACs, Turntables, Streaming devices, or even amplifiers) have their own built-in power regulators that isolate the A.C. from the component AND audio devices don't use A.C. the A.C. is converted to D.C. so there is no possible way for an A.C. conditioning device to have an effect on the performance of the audio component.
As far as transient effects, that is purely the function of the capacitors within the audio device's power supply not anything outside of the device as long as the A.C. is within the device operating parameters (typically 110 V to 120 V, 50 to 60 Hz).
@@JonAnderhub Possibly but AMIR and ASR never seem to discuss what things actually sound like, its merely a measurement assessment, this implicitly assume that the measurements totally correlate to what we hear, which is naive and suggests we have understood all there is to know
Sorry Paul, I hate to be ruthless and unsubscribe but the last video on this subject from Amir at Audio Science Review speaks utter truth. I'm an electrical engineer myself, but the audiophile in me doesn't understand how you're getting by with all this. The fact you're selling a $6,000 device that really has nothing to do with establishing your power rails makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
I am sorry, Brad, but what the ASR video completely missed is the actual purpose of a Power Plant. Voltage regulation. Not noise cancellation. Amir missed the point of the device entirely.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thanks Paul, that comment may have been a little too harsh. I will stick around awhile and listen to the alternative viewpoints. Thanks.
Sounds like a load of BS.
It sounds exactly like what it is.
@@editorjuno if it doesn’t hold up to double blind testing it isn’t real. Listen to his explanation as to why double blind testing doesn’t work.
@@garyharper2943 -- If you look up "self-serving" in the illustrated encyclopedia you'll find a photo of Paul McGowan. It's impossible to dislike such an affable guy, but his explanation attempts are not to be trusted.
@@editorjunoyeah....it's bs. pure and simple.
Why don't you just go high frequency switch mode power supply 3,000 watts running at 145kHz
Then your noise output is nowhere in the audio band.
And cheaper to manufacture and sell hopefully.
Want to save some money on power plant? Put on some music, close your eyes, imagine the music is empowered by the world's best audiophile level power plant, and there you are, money saved.
This is hilarious.....one thing for sure, a power conditioner will clean out your wallet.
Deep in the Weeds..............
Couple of weeks ago I discovered PS Audio were having a crazy sale on the P12 Power Plant. I have long wanted to try one out. I have a quite revealing all digital system c25k and had been using an Audioquest Niagara 1200 power conditioner. Wow! The P12 gave an immediate and significant improvement.
Time by Pink Floyd, the chimes going off always seemed a bit muddy. So much going on but now everything sounds distinct. The best way I can describe the improvement of my system I was very happy with to begin. It’s like so much more came forward in the mix of songs. If I’d never connected a power plant I would never have thought about it but once you do, goodness! Bass is freakin amazing
It says the harmonic distortion is 6-7%. Must be a lot as it’s near the meter limit. The incoming sine wave also looks copped off. I have a meaty Cambridge Audio Edge A amp driving Elac Adantes but the P12 tells me I’m drawing a steady 200W with occasional rises to c300W, way below the P12’s limit.
I watched Audio Science Review on the P12 but was always going to try it. Some people accuse Paul of snake oil. What kind of snake oil salesman offers a trial at home and will even pay return shipping if not happy?!! The engineering debate is way above my head. All I know is my system is now at a level never before achieved and I am so grateful to PS Audio for what they do and their commitment to excellence in sound reproduction.
Yes! Thank you for this. Great review!
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thank You Paul for all you do.
For all the naysayers there’s an order of magnitude more who have a deep appreciation for your mission.
@@keithbertschin1213 Thanks! I needed that bit of encouragement today. Much appreciated.
that's because the power of placebo. it is very powerful...if you BELIEVE....you will PERCEIVE!
@@davidcottrell1308 you put those in caps so it must be correct
So many people quick to tell you and give you 100 reasons why it won't work, have never even tried it to see if it does work. People that have used it, usually have pretty good things to say about it.
@@editorjuno you can return it if it doesn't work for you so I don't see what the issue is
It is called the placebo effect..
@@justkiddin1980 how can you tell without trying it? When you do try it how can you tell if it's just placebo or not?
@@Pete.across.the.street Now tell mee why should i even entertain the idea of paying 5000 dollars for a powerplant when you first need to at least upgrade your electrical in your house??? I would dare to bet that no real audiophile could make the distinction in a real blind test…If you can not measure it at the speaker terminals you as a human van not hear it…It is just a verifiable fact that you can not hear the difference and you won’t show a difference in a real blind test..
@@justkiddin1980 you don't need to upgrade the wiring in your house, that's the whole point of the power plant. Who verified this fact? Everyone that has actually tried it hear improvements. If you can't measure at the speaker terminals, you can't hear it, is a bunch of BS.
Just goes to show even if some "reviewers" have fancy expensive measuring equipment doesn't mean they know how to use it. Some people should leave that to the experts that know what their talking about. I'm still trying to figure what service they provide. Thanks Paul!
Amir has a degree in Electrical Engineering and has a pretty extensive electrical background including serving as a Vice President at Microsoft.
He knows how to use the equipment and based on his experience and education he would qualify as an expert.
The service Amir provides is real testing of audio products to see if the claims the companies make are true or not so people like you don't get fooled by grandfatherly charismatic snake oil salesmen.
@@JonAnderhub I have a degree also. Does t mean I know how to use it or what to look for in measurements. He may have been smart in the Microsoft world but he should leave audio to the experts. Some of the stuff he spreads I sorta cringe at and new folks to our hobby will unfortunately believe it. Measurements are not everything. Their a tool when used correctly. Some have even said is has some sort of adjenda reviewing stuff. I won't get I to that. Not the first of his so called reviews that have been called I to question by manufavters. Lust loom at his review of the chord tt2 and scaler review and watch what robb watts gives in response to his so called review. I'm not a chord or ps audio fanboy but been in this hobby long enough to know one should leave the measurements to experts like John Atkinson of stereophile. I made a mistake of visiting audio science review a while back. It was quiet toxic and didn't leave a good impression. I want this hobby to grow. Not like that. What people usually mean by snake oil is products they font have a open mind to that actually may help like cables and ppwer conditioners/regenerators. I have had experience with all and they all are beneficial in a resolving system. If you don't have a system resolving enough I would not recommend it.
@@brandonburr4900 -- Amir was also an executive level engineering manager focused on audio and video at Sony before joining M$ -- IOW, he's an "expert" whose job was supervising other experts! I guarantee he has an order of magnitude more technical knowledge about how sound reproduction actually works and how to properly use SOTA measurement gear than Paul, who is essentially self-taught when it comes to the technology he sells and depends on his employees and outside consultants for design engineering.
@@editorjuno he may have credentials but it doesn't neccessarily mean he knows what he is measuring. The audio science zealots I call them basically dismiss anything that doesn't measure well. Heck any any cheap Chinese piece of gear measures well these days. Don't sounds good but they promote it as all you need. All those Chinese companies like smsl, topping, etc are what I call flavour of the month gear. I have seen the way Amir "reviews" stuff. After I watched him review a new piece by a well respected manufacture I lost all the respect I had left for him. How would you like to have been launching a new product and sent to him for very incomplete review. And again the manufacture said he didn't know what he was measuring. It hurt that companies sales.
@@brandonburr4900 -- Amir know exactly what he's measuring, and most of what he tests gets sent to him by their owners or has been purchased himself. Every piece of gear I've chosen based on ASR reviews has worked out extraordinarily well except for a Topping DAC that eventually failed outright -- but Amir does not and cannot test for long-term reliability, so that failure isn't on him. By way of contrast, the few pieces of gear I bought based on "high-end" aficionado Steve Guttenberg's subjective reviews were disappointing, to say the very least.
At least in my case, who is trusted is based on experience -- and I certainly would *never* take the word of a company's CEO about that company's own products!
At last, an easy answer question: No! Regulating AC power from a wall socket is entirely unnecessary, your amp (or whatever) does that without any fuss or problem. A dedicated Power Plant Regulator is a huge waste of money.
I was waiting for somebody to reply like you did. Paul has never made a clear, concise explanation as to why there is all this blowback against power plants. Now the cats' out of the bag. This technical explanation is not in the instruction manual, it's never been talked about before but today it's been finally revealed.
@@stimpy1226 It doesn't need to be in the instruction manual, it's clear what a Power Plant is supposed to do. The point is, it's entirely redundant - the amp already handles any variations in AC supply when it's converted to DC. Its an entirely unnecessary step, and one that'll set you back thousands of pounds, crazy. It's kind of like the Victorians and their grape scissors. A completely unnecessary contraption, but if people wanted them, heck, we'll make 'em. Actually, the grape scissors at least do what they're supposed to.
@Douglas Blake True in the vast majority of cases. And unless you live in an area where power supply is a real issue, and brown outs occur (which excludes the UK, virtually all of Europe, Canada, Australia, most of the US, so basically the vast majority of where high end high powered amps would be bought and run) then a Power Plant is entirely unnecessary.
Have you even tried it?
@@Pete.across.the.street Have I tried Power Plants? There's no need, my amp does the AC to DC conversion just fine. Follow the evidence, not the babble. I'll also confess I've never tried breathing underwater or hitting my head with a hammer cos, y'know, science.
I say that both Amir and Paul are serving their interests more than they are doing anything else.
Amir isn't serving his own interests as he clearly points out in his testing and his videos.
He has many videos of products that he doesn't carry (he doesn't run an audio company) that have very positive reviews.
Amir is also fine with people proving him wrong and has extended to Paul the opportunity to show him evidence that his conclusions are wrong.
Paul to date has refused to show proof that his product(s) perform the way he says they do.
What exactly are Amir's "interests" that he's supposedly "serving?" ASR isn't a monetized endeavor, but PS Audio obviously is!
Ahh Deutschland!
All talk, no proof. Show us the measurements of the output of your amplifier being fed by the powerplant! It's that simple! But can you show any positive results? Probably not; otherwise you would've shown the data already.
I've learned measurements don't define what the gear truly will sound like.
@@paulredding5347 Oh. :D
BS Audio
Do a video to prove it make the music comming out of my speakers better. Show us something to back up what you say. You only talk but show very little ( basically nothing).
Enjoying this video of a repair to a PS audio power device: czcams.com/video/yzXZGE4zB1g/video.html
Another classic example of Amir not understanding his measurements
You're joking, right? 😅
@@bubbelchampagne seems like irony to me, yes
The blind leading the blind
I don't think he ever understands them.
You do know that Amir holds a degree in Electrical Engineering and was a Vice President at Microsoft.
If he were to testify in a court of law about his conclusions the court would recognize him as an expert because of his qualifications.
This is PS BS.
ASR, in my experience, misses the point in the main. I was not a believer in power regeneration devices until I bought a PS Powerplant 3. I bought it with a 30-day return ability in mind. I planned to return the device as soon as I got it and found it did nothing to improve the SQ of my system. Boom. Wrong. large improvement I can not, will not, live without. ASR's founder doesn't listen. He tests and throws out numbers that back up his preconceived opinions.
Amir doesn't have preconceived notions when performing tests on audio equipment.
Many of Amir's videos show various audio equipment pieces living up to the manufacturer's specifications.
However, even with no testing done, it's a scientific\engineering fact that the PS Audio Power Plant can not possibly have any effect on the quality of the sound because, even as Paul points out in this video, manufacturers of audio equipment build power regulation into their devices and audio equipment doesn't run on A.C.
The A.C. is completely isolated from the audio device (all audio devices by the way, including DACs, Amplifiers, turntables, streaming devices, computers, etc.) so the condition of the A.C. can not possibly have an effect on the audio device's operation.
@@JonAnderhub And you know the PowerPlant cannot have a positive effect without trying it - right? With zero experience you judge it "worthless." Talk about preconceived and subjective. Of course, Amir, like you has preconceived notions about the merits of all devices. Go back to ASR where everyone will always agree with you completely. Regardless of personal experience.
I would love to see some blind tests…blindfolded people with the exact same system only with and without that device…I do not think they would be able to “hear” the difference…
Your attacks on Amir Majidimehr of the Audio Science review are well documented.
What isn't well documented is your proof that Amir's tests and conclusions are wrong.
You like to selectively dismiss certain facts such as the Power Plant adding noticeable noise and try to convince people that your Power Plant is better because it lowers the impedance.
Amir clearly shows with your own video that the impedance on the "low current" connections of the Power Plant was significantly higher than the specifications you claim and the impedance was actually very close to the impedance of the power strip you were testing on.
Your attack on Amir over the higher impedance of the high current connection, the connection that would actually be used for amplifiers, is also well documented.
What you fail to do PAul is actually prove that Amir is wrong, and by the way, Amir is really open to you proving that he is wrong.
For those that want to claim "tests prove nothing it's all about the listening" then you really should pay attention to the real conclusion that Amir comes to which simply stated is that Power Plants and voltage regenerators of any type are simply a waste of money and totally unnecessary because manufactures expect their devices to see "dirty power" and build voltage regulation into the power supply of the individual devices and that the devices don't use the A.C. but convert the A.C. into D.C. to power the device.
Amir is ignorant. To him nothing expensive makes a difference. In his book low jitter and low noise is negligible, but mitigate that and noise on a resolving system and Wala it makes a huge difference. It's like telling an engineer that a little unbalanced on a turbine is negligible.
Well he does own a pair of dan clark $4000 dollar headphones. It seems he did not mind shelling out as his measurements prooved they are great headphones.
You obviously know nothing about Amir.
Amir's testing is non-biased and if you actually watched his tests you would see that he has both praise, as well as, scorn for products, regardless of their price range or the manufacture.
Furthermore, Amir is open to being proven wrong and invites challenges to his testing with valid proof.
That is something, Paul McGowen, will not do.
That's a lot of "high-end" Koolaid you swallowed, complete with meaningless jargon like "resolving system."
LOL lets keep these comments civil. I guess there is a minon of audiophiles that would prefer not to listen to the sound.
What sound would that be?
That's funny how you say "lets keep the comments civil" and in the very next sentence your hurl insults at the "minion of audiophiles that would not prefer to listen to the sound."
The facts of the matter, the truth is, there is absolutely no scientific, or factual way that the Power Plant can make any difference in the sound output of any device simply because the Power Plant has no actual connection to any electrical device.
The Power Plant or any A.C. source is completely isolated from the device by the voltage regulator of the device.
It's not an opinion, it is a fact that is indisputable and a matter of electrical engineering.
@@JonAnderhub Wrong again.
What fun is that?
@@alfonsodelafreg259 What exactly are you calling wrong?
Do you have proof that this is not correct?
This is why people who measure and not listen drive me nuts. If you say it measures better, sure, I'm sure it does. But does it sound better? They are not the same thing, within reason.
And this is why people who don't pay attention to testing drive me nuts.
If you actually paid attention to the testing you would understand that this PS Power regenerator or ANY other power supply or regenerator couldn't possibly make any audio device sound different or better.
Any and all A.C. is isolated completely from any and all audio devices by the internal power regulator in the device.
All manufacturers of audio devices (CD players, streamers, DACs, turntables, and amplifiers,) are aware of "dirty power" and build internal power regulators to compensate for such power.
Additionally, audio devices don't use A.C. power but convert the power into D.C.
So outside power conditioning can not possibly affect the "sound" of an audio device it's impossible.
I would love to see you perform some real blind tests then…If the output at the bindingposts are measured to be exactly the same, the only answer can be that they are the same..
@0:53 "Amir is a good guy".
Paul, that good guy is a cable misinformation spreader.
Amir tells his viewers that cables do not affect sound quality; that it is a scam.
Putting the word "science" in the name of his channel, does not make him a scientist.
Amir is not a scientist. That is a red flag, just like someone calling their channel a doctor's channel, when they are not a doctor.
Amir is a guy that impresses people with his testing equipment, and his shop talk, just as a used car salesman can impress people that know little or nothing about cars.
Amir uses his channel to feed audio trolls what they want to hear.
Amir will not sit down in your listening room (or anyone else's similar listening room), to test the cables that he bashes.
I have challenged him to do so, and he refused.
A scientist will confirm their tests with an actual listening session, using the proper lab equipment. And a room, with professionally set-up FR30 speakers, is the lab that Amir refuses to include in his testing.
Paul, as hard as you work to impart audio knowledge and improve sound quality in all areas of music recording and reproduction, people like Amir cut you off at the knees.
Perhaps you were not aware of how he operates, such that you called him a "good guy".
Amir not only has a degree in electrical engineering but has had a very impressive career, including being a vice president at Microsoft.
Amir's testing methods are very valid a repeatable by anyone doing testing and more importantly Amir is open to any valid testing methods or evidence that doesn't agree with his conclusions.
Amir does, in fact, use proper testing equipment, and explains what equipment he uses, and how his test is performed, so that anyone can duplicate his testing or dispute his conclusions based on legitimate testing methods of their own.
Additionally, Amir does perform "listening tests" as well.
If you actually paid attention to Amir's testing, you would see that Amir never sets out to disprove any manufactures claims and has some very positive tests and conclusions about some audio equipment.
@@JonAnderhub "Amir not only has a degree in electrical engineering but has had a very impressive career, including being a vice president at Microsoft."
I know two lawyers that have impressive degrees, and they disagree and argue the law, often. Which one's law degree was giving to her in error?
Supreme Court Justices disagree on the law.
Doctors disagree on treatments.
How can that be, when they have the degrees hanging on their walls?
Doesn't their degree make them right? Yet, they disagree with one-another.
Assuming you can validate your assertions about Amir's education... he is not a scientist -- which is what I wrote in my opening comment.
Calling his channel a science channel, inferring that he is a scientist, is deceptive.
Amir is no more a scientist than Bill Nye the Science Guy.
"Amir's testing methods are very valid a repeatable by anyone doing testing..."
My mechanic repeatedly tested my brakes. He inspected the pads and calipers over and over. He kept getting the same conclusions. And his conclusions were correct.
My other mechanic tested the car's master cylinder, and found it to be faulty. So mechanic #1's tests showed no problems. Yet, there was a problem.
Mechanic #1's tests were correct, and repeatable. But it was the test that he did not do that mattered.
If you do not perform the test that will reveal the problem, then you are wasting time. And when you intentionally avoid performing the test that is pertinent to the subject at hand, then you are deceptive.
"Amir does, in fact, use proper testing equipment, and explains what equipment he uses, and how his test is performed, so that anyone can duplicate his testing or dispute his conclusions based on legitimate testing methods of their own."
See brake test, above.
"Additionally, Amir does perform "listening tests" as well."
The equipment used for a listening test "is" the lab equipment.
When Amir refuses to listen to Wilson Alexx V speakers, or Vandersteen Seven speakers, or PS Audio FR30 speakers, or similar quality speakers, then Amir is not using lab equipment that is capable of returning proper or accurate results.
"If you actually paid attention to Amir's testing, you would see that Amir never sets out to disprove any manufactures claims and has some very positive tests and conclusions about some audio equipment."
Even con men will tell the truth.
Even stick-up men sometimes earn their paycheck.
The issue is not with what Amir does right.
The issue is with what Amir does wrong.
Amir insists that cables do not affect sound quality.
Amir is wrong.
Amir can present dozens of tests that show that any properly functioning cable is as good as a quality, high-end cable.
All that means is that Amir is not testing properly.
If Amir sat down and listed to Vandersteen's System Nine set-up, and swapped between Walmart cables and Audioquest's WEL cables, Amir would know that he missed something in his testing, because the change in sound quality would be slap-in-the-face obvious. A person that is deaf in one ear would hear the difference.
So Amir, for all of his shop talk, is not testing properly -- and perhaps intentionally so.
He has pushed the "all cables sound the same" mantra so many times, that for him to admit he was wrong, seems to be something he does not the spine to own up to. So he always refuses to listen on the right stereos (the right lab gear).
Our ears are lab equipment.
Our ears can hear qualities that nothing in Amir's lab can measure.
No.