A Physics Prof Bet Me $10,000 I'm Wrong
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2021
- A UCLA Physics Professor bet me $10,000 that my video about going downwind faster than the wind was wrong. This video is sponsored by Brilliant. The first 200 people to sign up via brilliant.org/veritasium get 20% off a yearly subscription.
For more information about the Veritasium Science Communication Contest check out -- ve42.co/contest
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The wager agreement: ve42.co/wager
Prof. Kusenko's slides: ve42.co/Kusenko
My rebuttal: ve42.co/rebuttal
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Huge thanks to Xyla Foxlin for building the model cart, and making the instructions so accessible to the public. Check out Xyla's video -- • Building the Vehicle P...
A massive thanks to Bill Nye, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and Sean Carroll for witnessing the signing of the wager.
A huge thanks to Prof. Alexander Kusenko for being a man of honour -- it's a difficult thing to change your mind, especially in a public forum.
A huge thanks to Prof. Mark Drela for the interview and help making sure we got the physics right.
A massive thanks to Rick Cavallaro for making Blackbird, all your insights, analysis, data, and general help with these videos -- it was so fun to work with you on this crazy project -- check out Rick's channel ve42.co/Rick
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References
M. Drela. Dead-Downwind Faster Than The Wind (DDWFTTW)
Analysis (Jan 2009) -- ve42.co/Drela
2013 AAPT United States Physics Olympiad Semifinal Exam -- ve42.co/AAPT2013
Rick's treadmill footage -- ve42.co/Treadmill
Rick's multiple explanations of how Blackbird works -- ve42.co/DDWFTTW
Blackford, B. L. (1978). The physics of a push‐me pull‐you boat. American Journal of Physics, 46(10), 1004-1006. - ve42.co/Blackford1979
Ruina corrects errors in the above paper: ruina.tam.cornell.edu/research...
Forum discussions -- ve42.co/forum Blog -- ve42.co/blog1 and retraction ve42.co/BlogRetraction
Bauer, A. B. (1969, April). Faster than the Wind. In First AIAA Symposium on Sailing. -- ve42.co/Bauer1969
Bauer's Obituary -- ve42.co/BauerObituary
Gaunaa, M., Øye, S., & Mikkelsen, R. F. (2009). Theory and design of flow driven vehicles using rotors for energy conversion. In EWEC 2009 Proceedings online EWEC
Md. Sadak Ali Khan, Syed Ali Sufiyan, Jibu Thomas George, Md. Nizamuddin Ahmed. Analysis of Down-Wind Propeller Vehicle. International Journal of Scientific and Research Publications, 3, 4. (April 2013) ISSN 2250-3153.
The Manim Community Developers. (2021). Manim - Mathematical Animation Framework (Version v0.13.1) [Computer software]. www.manim.community/
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Special thanks to Patreon supporters: Mike Tung, Evgeny Skvortsov, Meekay, Ismail Öncü Usta, Bill Linder, Paul Peijzel, Crated Comments, Anna, Mac Malkawi, Michael Schneider, Oleksii Leonov, Jim Osmun, Tyson McDowell, Ludovic Robillard, Jim Buckmaster, fanime96, Juan Benet, Ruslan Khroma, Robert Blum, Richard Sundvall, Lee Redden, Vincent, Marinus Kuivenhoven, Alfred Wallace, Arjun Chakroborty, Joar Wandborg, Clayton Greenwell, Pindex, Michael Krugman, Cy 'kkm' K'Nelson, Sam Lutfi, Ron Neal
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Written and Edited by Derek Muller
Animation by Mike Radjabov
Manim equations by Jonny Hyman
Filmed by Emily Zhang and Raquel Nuno
Music from Epidemic Sound epidemicsound.com and by Jonny Hyman
Additional video supplied by Getty Images
Produced by Emily Zhang, Petr Lebedev and Derek Muller
Derek, can you just turn Veritasium into a gambling channel where scientists with opposing views put money on the table and face off to try to convince one another of the true answer? I'd watch that.
ill watch the hell out of it lol
HA! That would be the greatest show on Earth!
@@DyslexicMitochondria Hey bro i watch ur videoss. Love ur channeI
Veritasium sounds like a science thunderdome anyway :D
i think a lot of people would put money on the table to watch it ;)
"You have a much lower error rate than most youtubers" is probably the highest mark of approval you can get from a uni professor !!!
well said, Lance friend.
He has a lower error rate than the professor himself at this point
Well my comment was deleted, but I still want to assert that the professor gave a real backhanded compliment in my opinion. Derrick doesn't really deserve to be talked down to and doubted like that and it's very gracious of him to take fault in botching the explanation but holy hell that uni prof needs to take notes from Bill Nye and just be nice.
I could say, Veritassium is already more than a simple youtuber/CZcams channel.
@@kevinlasher2812 I think the professor was overconfident, put too much weight in weak arguments (like Derek getting into Blackbird many times??), and was also condescending as you suggested. Maybe he thought he would easily win $10000. The already existing treadmill-footage clearly showed the cart wasn't being "pushed forward"; there was no "bias" in that sense (the bias was in the professor's mind that people would be as silly as to do the treadmill experiment repeatedly and always "unconsciously" push it forward). But mainly, "the video falls short of providing evidence that the motion faster than the wind occurs with a non-negative acceleration and that it is not caused by the wind variability. " Derek's treadmill experiment clearly shows there is positive acceleration relative to the ground. Unless he was suggesting that somehow the wind behind the propeller acquires higer speeds, or to vary so much so as to get the negative acceleration he mentioned. Again, clearly not present in the treadmill experiments.
It seems he is trying to look gracious "Oh well, I had to concede if I wasn't 100% correct". But he was just wrong. To me, the main issue was understanding how the "turbine" worked. In any case, he should have gotten himself fully familiarized with the problem (or maybe he actually was, and is playing dumb) before betting that amount of money...Apparently didn't even check the literature on the problem. The professor suggested the bet right? Kind of weird. Not sure what he wanted to get out of it. Maybe "school a youtuber"? Prevent the spread of what he thought was pseudoscience? In brief, arrogance got the better of him.
Kusenko, you legend. Anyone who speaks his mind in a situation like this, gets corrected, and controls his ego like advanced human, putting fun and progress first is the MVP.
The prof is a man- a (mensch?).
I wonder if he did all this just for the celebrity/spectacle.
Back when the video came out he made a big twitter thread stating he still didnt believe Veritasium to be right, but that he only conceded on a technicality
@@jpietersen519 bruh but veritasium made it obvious that he's right
@@michaelbread5906 and be proven wrong in front of all his peers? No way. He did this because he though Veritasium was wrong, but gracefully conceded defeat
You tricked me into a physics lecture on a Saturday. Damn you; thank you.
Hello Mr Professor!
Same 😂
Samee it's sat too here
For real 8 months after your Saturday but it's my time now
Same here! Lol!
Wow, I forgot that rational and intelligent people who can have a disagreement, openly listen to arguments against their point of view, and then admit they were wrong and change their minds still exist. It's such a rare thing nowadays.
@Sanningen It is rare lol. Do you live in a cave?
No shame in making a robust logical argument and then dropping it for a stronger one.
Ya! But that can only happen when you are committed to facts and not committed to yourself ! And that's science !
The media bans and censors doctors who disagree with the media.
@@OGPatriot03 not to mention scientist getting payed by governments to sway the masses - Billy Nye needs to re-think Genders
the world needs more scientists, disagreeing about something and the only thing that happens is a very civil discussion.
It's like... they want to know the truth regardless of their beliefs... Those crazy scientists...
That's what happens when you get people that want to be correct instead of just be perceived as correct.
There is something terribly wrong with scientists. It's like they want to be wrong!
Respectful disagreement works wonders in science, too bad "social" science don´t work the same way.
@@heiarhognigunason1206 Social science works the same way
Kusenko has my respect, losing bet in your own science and keeping it civil and admitting he is wrong is truly respectful. he has the balls
He never admitted he was wrong, he only conceded the bet. According to Cavallero ""He conceded on a technicality - that the vehicle moves marginally faster than the wind temporarily" "I offered him another $10,000 bet, because his technicality is entirely wrong, but I know I won't be hearing from him."
@@dibdab7990 crazy right and to think this guy is teaching.
Professor Kusenko gets my respect. Being able to accept being wrong and pay out the bet shows a lot about his personality. His students are lucky to have him as a mentor.
This is relatively obvious Physics problem.
Hope he doesn't teach Physics majors.
The problem was his initial response to the experiments. There were multiple examples, all with the same result. And he just refused to not only believe it, but to even bother to test it himself first. And I believe the only reason he was humble was because it was all public. He was so sure he was right, but got essentially destroyed.
Thanks for both of your comments. Love different opinions.
@@VicJangBro is the ultimate pluralist.
I would fire him, he clearly does not know anything about physics if he got this wrong
The professor is a true man of science. He was wrong, admitted failure, and learned something new! If only all scientists were so pure.
Not just scientists, but people in general.
His admission was less than complete if you followed the discussion on Twitter. It was basically “I was right, but there was a stipulation to the requirements I didn’t take into account”
It's hard to argue otherwise when the result is evident...
most scientists are tho
@@threepe0 : Did he say what that stipulation was?
He disagreed, he still disagreed and then he realised that he was wrong and conceded his position. If only matters of politics and other public debate would be handled in such professional manner…
It's hard to know who is right and wrong in politics. Was an outcome directly caused by a policy or was it something else? In the world at large there are so many factors that it's almost impossible to show causality.
And there's no such thing as "settled science" else you've moved beyond science and are in the realm of cultism.
Politics is an Art of Deception. It cannot be handled in a reasonable manner because it's easier to fool people than to tell them they were fooled.
The main difference between politics and science is science deals with matters of truth, while politics deal with matters of morality. The ultimate goal of politics is to create a society that maximizes justice and comfort for the individuals in that society as well as determine who or what that society is. In a melting pot like the US with such diverse opinions and ideologies pepole will naturally butt heads.
If you reached the end of this then thank you for reading and please share your thoughts I like discussing this stuff on the internet, it's fun :)
@I love you but You can talk about the past though, and it's still hard to show direct causality. Look how many people still argue that communism and socialism would be good for people even though every attempt at it has ended very badly. The only people who seem to be able to convincingly draw conclusions of casuality from policies are largely ignored- Thomas Sowell for example. And even then it isn't FACT, it's just conjecture and anicdote.
i love that the professor only was challenging this point because he thaught "you made a mistake here which you dont often do and i dont want you to accidently spread misinformation since you usually are a very trustworthy source"
Wonderful point at the end! Last year I wrote software for NASA that did my job for them. I then retired happy. In my last two weeks, coworkers realized that they didn’t know enough about the physics behind my software. I was thrilled and commented, “I’m happy to be challenged!” I wanted them to USE my software confidently. I laid out the ENTIRE set of equations leading from start to finish. Everyone including me was satisfied. If there was a mistake (there wasn’t) I WANTED to know. Peer review is highly important.
If you don’t mind me asking how much did nasa pay you? Above or below 5?
@@bobbythomas6520 80k to do math & physics all day. Keep in mind I have a 25-year hole in my resumé raising 6 children. My daughter working on the ISS with no hole in her resumé but about the same 14 years experience makes a lot more. Being good at solving equations and good at math & physics pays off. 4 of our 6 children are engineers. The other two are therapists. They say engineers are crazy. They’re not wrong. We love our work.
Are we not gonna talk about how he can just summon Neil degrasse Tyson and Bill Nye at his will
@@maxstephen2324 I’m saying
Neil came to osan airbase when I was stationed in Korea it was pretty cool
those 2 arent that hard to summon
Nerd Whisperer.
Lol it’s a joke. Don’t @ me
@@Pixel-bu4on It is.
I’ve been expecting you.
"Disagreement in science are not problems, but they are opportunities for everyone to learn something" - Derek Muller......Nice one👌👌
but that's not what happened in reality, it's always more than just disagreement, ....ridicule, group bully, and personal insults are just some of other thing that got involved
@@electronresonator8882 It's view on science, don't relate it on past thing's 🤷...
"WHatever i said is immutable"
--- A stupid politician
I was like. Derek Muller... Damn dat name seems so fammiliar... I know it from somewhere... Oh...
Goosebumps
Awesome understanding and explanation. The best part of this explanation is that it is mathematically and physically robust because of those equations of power. This is why Veritasium is my favorite CZcams channel, a consistency of good quality content that can be seen in every video.
And with this, this video has become my favorite video on my favorite CZcams channel.
Well done!⛵⛵
Professor Kusenko is a good scientist. You do good science doing mistakes, acknowledging them, fixing the mistakes and nailing it afterwards. That's the beautty of it!
Kusensko's a terrible scientist, he never admitted he was wrong, he only conceded the bet by blaming it on a technicality. "He conceded on a technicality - that the vehicle moves marginally faster than the wind temporarily" "I offered him another $10,000 bet, because his technicality is entirely wrong, but I know I won't be hearing from him."
"So I called Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye" hot DAMN that's a flex and a half
Only topped by the fact that apparently they both watch him
@@mcstench8913 I don’t think you are understanding what “a flex” is then.
What? You don't have both of their numbers in your phone? I thought everyone did.
Bill Nye is not even a scientist 🤡
@@prasannadahal5512 He is an engineer who a few years ago infamously, unashamedly spruiked for Monsanto.
"You have a much lower error rate than most people on CZcams." That is low-key the best endorsement from a physics professor I've ever heard.
... in context, it sounded like a thinly veiled insult to me ;)
@@jonathanjomen This. But I could buy that it was not intended as such, and was intended as an honest compliment; which all holds together if the smug cockiness is embedded in his base personality.
@@FlyNAA ... which it probably is ...
He intended it to be a compliment - it just didn't sound like one to me.
@@jonathanjomen Yeah, the professor was intimating that his own error rate was lower that his opponents. I guess error 'rate' is not determinate though.
It's called a backhanded compliment. They are very common in my blue collar line of work.
Derek's misleading when he says Professor Kusenko “changed his mind in light of the evidence.” Professor Kusenko never changed his mind and still believes the Blackbird doesn’t work. He only conceded the bet on a technicality, still insisting it was just the wind pushing it along.
From Rick Cavallero: "He conceded on a technicality - that the vehicle moves marginally faster than the wind temporarily." "I offered him another $10,000 bet because his technicality is entirely wrong, but I know I won't be hearing from him."
So Professor Kusenko is not a rockstar or some scientific legend. Personally, I think he was just an egotistical professor who thought he could publicly school Rick Cavellero and some dumb CZcamsr, only to end up getting schooled himself. And his ego was too bruised for him to ever even consider admitting he was be wrong. Hardly very scientific of him now...
This reminds me of science history where scientists would publicly debate their ideas. Both parties made convincing arguments and from the start i knew the two of you guys were educated and strong-willed; regardless of who was wrong, both of you guys look like better men for it. Would love to see videos with a similar styled format! The appeal for me however is seeing two smart people discuss small possible problems, not crazy stuff. Had to rewatch a few times to follow the math a bit better, and thats what Im here for. Stuff like this makes me want to learn and dive headfirst into equations I normally wouldnt pay a second thought to
The professor got conned by a f-n trick ?
Great point. We need more public debates like this
I learned that if a UCLA professor says I’m wrong, then I should hire a MIT professor to prove him wrong
I used the professor to the professor
@@brodypaine i use professor to beat professor
What if they end up agreeing? Who will you get?
I learned that a perpetuum mobile randomly trumps any level of professor.
@@TheAllMightyGodofCod I’ll get an idiot to agree with me
Fair play to the professor. Not easy to admit he was wrong publicly. Man of honour
Yep, people like him need to be celebrated, it is okay to concede for science.
The sign of a true scientist
I mean scientists are used to it. Theres always new evidence
but did he actually do that....or just secretly pay the fine and slink away without going on record(in a video reply) to announce he was wrong - I'd like to see the final response from Nye and especially Tyson too
@@benjamint.minkler221 No need to flog someone over it. Conceding is enough; humans are still human and it always feels bad to be wrong.
Scientists are special in that they’re good at swallowing that shitty feeling because they know it holds them and the rest of humanity back.
I really appreciate the graciousness of both parties. As stated at the end, 'Disagreements don't have to be a problem (source of friction between sides) but an opportunity for everyone to learn.' If only the politicians could apply that principle, how much better the planet would be.
American politicians because they are mostly trained arguers (lawyers). Japan politicians for instance are mostly trained engineers and look how well they solve problems in Japan.
Being wrong is the best thing to happen, providing the opportunity to learn what one didn’t know before.
Being respectful and humble about being wrong is championship caliber!
Being wrong is painful, accepting that you’re wrong takes courage. Bet or no bet, I admire the professor and veritasium
It hurts even more when you present such a thought out argument and 10k
@@americankid7782 ain’t that the truth!
Exactly, go back 100 years and the great debates and clashes around different quantum behaviours.
Where was that acceptance? I didn't see any.
Read the supplied slides from him, he made it an all or nothing bet so it took just one error for him to lose the bet.
Dude, you phoned up Neil Degrass Tyson, Bill Nye, and Sean Carroll to witness a $10,000 bet against a UCLA professor. What a freakin' life you live lol. Thanks for the knowledge, my friend!
You forgot "and won the bet"
Gigachad
Derek can just go "I know a guy..."
Better was that they all say his videos in general are accurate as well
Well everyone has a cirof friends... the most of us can call Derek the Weirdo, Deina the soccer mom from the Hood and the little Sku who actually ask for money to participate!
I love seeing people come together on things like this! Need more of this these days. ❤
Wow interesting~ Good for the professor having a level-headed conversation about this topic.
“When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.” Arthur C Clark
"The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible." Clarke's second law
@@maskettaman1488 the professor took his extensive knowledge on the matter and looked for issues in his video, this made him believe that this was misguided when it really was using a more abstract way of thinking that he had not thought of to that extent.
@@maskettaman1488 The old Russian dude said something was impossible and was wrong. It’s relevant.
I think it has a lot to do with this video
In other words, "Ok, boomer."
Taking up a bet, changing his mind, and being honorable about it? Professor Kusenko is giving me way too much hope for humanity
Nah, this is an old topic with tons of papers about it, more like the popular tubers bribed the professor for another hit.
He is not a flat earther. That is all. A decent human being
That's why science has brought us where we are today because the ultimate goal is not beeing right, but finding out what's right.
@@moenibus Nobody is flat earther. We knew radius of the Earth since the Romans. It's a made up concept to divide and conquer America. If you don't fall for that, well ... rich vs poor, white vs black, man vs woman, gay vs straight ... something, somewhere, we will destroy America, one cr@p at a time.
Ikr XDD
I am amazed by the quality of the scientific reasoning and open-minded approach in all those videos !!! It is far beyond my limited math/physics abilities but I love it !!! So great work Derek !!!
Absolutely astonishing! Professor Kusenko - you have my deepest respect, thank you for questioning this and helping to create a better explanation.
That Professor was so bad a$$. He really argued his points well. And was skeptic enough to question the topic. In the end we all learned something because of him. So cheers to you!
Science was the winner in this argument
@@DyslexicMitochondria Hey bro i watch ur videoss. Love ur channel
$$
Yeah and me, just some dumb guy here watches the first video on this, and i'm like "yeah of course", then i watch the professors rebuttal, and i'm like "yeah of course", then the video finishes and derek puts the issue to rest, and im like "yeah of course"
so pretty much i get it
And I must say his points had a good foundation. Stuff like gusts of wind, different wind speed at different elevation over the ground, etc.
I don't even think he is wrong with those arguments. Which are basically about external influences on the experiment. That is the reason experiments have to be repeated to assure that the result is not just based on those external factors.
"Disagreements are not problems. They are opportunities for everyone."
Except when it comes to today’s politics and religion
@@Pastor_RogerSherwood or people with no common sense
@@exudeku wdym "or", theyre the same thing
@@exudeku true
@@exudeku
Common sense is not really Common in some people
Another of your videos that made my day. Thank you and keep it up! ❤
I know this video is a couple of years old and i just watched it again. It's very well done and informative, but this time i caught the ad for Brilliant and the gear ratio question. I love it because that's an old brain teaser that we got as engineering students and even machinist's training. Very easy, the output speed is equal to the ratio of the input gear and the output gear, . regardless of the size of intermediate gears. There are no co-axial gear sets, only independent idlers, therefore one tooth is one tooth consistently through the train. The answer is 30/60, or 1:2. Output is 5 RPS.
Honestly that professor is a very respectable person. He made good arguments, and actually payed the money in the end,
Damn, just got spoiled
yes. he believed in himself and bet 10.000$ and that's something
Paid*
@@jd1800 Peighd*
The confusion of the physics professor is very odd to me, it is an interesting effect but the dynamics are not particularly complex, it's just somewhat counter-intuitive. My guess is that this was something of a publicity stunt on his part, a chance to play devil's advocate in a public forum, not an honest disagreement on how the device functions.
A solid example of how constructive criticism can actually help improve everyone’s work.
Not just that, but why it is absolutely a crucial part of the scientific process.
the prof hasn't improved. now he's just angry
That's ACTUAL science --- scientists super open to all challenges in order to maximize it! (Unlike this "pandemic")
But I don't have 10K to bet If I'm wrong or not
That's how science works.
this video shows how hard it can be to explain people without a scientific background (likely a good percentage of the viewers) how scientists work and discuss issues professionally, but it ALSO shows it is possible to do so. thank you. all of you.
It's also an excellent demonstration that no matter how much you think you know about something, you should always be willing to entertain the possibility that you are wrong.
very interesting experiment, thanks! From what I saw in the first video, I realized that each pinwheel represents the sail of a ship. And as has been shown, a sailing ship moves at an angle faster than straight ahead of the wind, and if it goes to the right for a while, then to the left, the ship will go faster than the wind. The spinner on the car is a sail that pulls to the left on half a turn and to the right on the other half turn, from here and at full turn it reaches beyond the wind, so it travels faster than the wind. It's like riding a bicycle, we push the pedal right and left, and as a result we accelerate forward, only here the angular force of the sail is used, when right, when left, for each complete rotation, and the car goes faster than the force that pushes the pedals.
Derek - "If I'm wrong, I wanna know."
Flat earthers - "Imma pretend I didn't see that."
Also those who treat burden of proof as a law rather than rule of thumb
(flat)
Fault*
@@Liftium Flat*
Derek Chauvin - "I ain't mean to kill George Floyd he was actually Harambe, in the flesh"
I would like to shake that mans hand. To admit to being wrong is hard. Learning from it is harder. My sincerest respect to this man, a true follower of the scientific method.
You probably could if in the area. Scientists and professors are usually approachable especially to those with genuine interest. When they do get media exposure it tends to be overwhelming, but day to day they will often just talk due to their passion (outside of celebrities).
Yes, very impressive. That is probably the biggest findung here, that there is at least one scientist left with integrity.
The Florida man would call it fake news, but fortunately he does not dabble into complex stuff.
Derek: willing to be wrong, even when he is sure he is right
Prof : Willing to bet he's right against popular and proven
Both : Learning from it ...
@@FelonyVideos What are you insinuating here? That most scientists are not honest? That's really a disingenuous and gratuitous comment to do, especially since I suppose you don't have much contact with the scientific process and research.
The answer is in an analysis of the function of the propeller acting as an airfoil. The propeller blades are rotating and therefore at an angle to the apparent wind. As such they can generate forces to propel them at speeds that exceed the speed of the wind. This is how ice boats can achieve speeds five times the speed of the wind.
The prop is driving the wheels. Big gear drives little gears faster than the rpm of the big gear.
Respect to both of you. This is the way to take science to the next level.
When the two Smart Kids get different answers: But they're not kids anymore.
Lol
so what they r?🙄
"Props" to this prof for honor and respect. Quite a stark contrast to a similar dispute between a professor and electroboom.
they always were outnumbered by morons though :(
reminds me of death note
It's difficult to admit when you're wrong. I give mad props to professor.
I have a big... BIG... BIIIIGGGGG... muscles!!! HAHAHA!!! What did you think I was going for? That's so DIRTY of you! GAGAGAGA!!! I am the funniest CZcamsr ever! Maybe that's the reason why I have TWO (!!!) HOT (!) GIRLFRIENDS. Thanks for being alive, dear jo
That's why he's a professor most likely!
@@AxxLAfriku wtf?
Mad props? Is that pun intended?
Imagine how much Bill Nye regrets that email though. He made the very same mistake that he explained in the email, again!
That board thing was weird to see, really weird!
Respect to the professor who was bold enough to take the bet.
Greetings from Germany!! Those kinds of appreciated CZcams clips improved my scientific knowledge and English language by a lot. Thank you very much!!❤
The board and wheel demonstration was a stroke of genius. The added complexity of aerodynamics was keeping me from developing an intuitive grasp on the car, and my aha moment happened as soon as I saw that demonstration.
Well done. You really are the best at this.
That experiment broke my brain. I get why it works, but think if I did that at a 6th grade science fair I'd have been burned at the stake for being a witch.
That was beautiful
there is a similar one about pulling a cord tied to a bike pedal from behind the bike and which way the bike in moving.
This ^
Yep, that was the demo that made it click for me!
I love how Derek can just casually bring Neil and Bill and have them not be the main point of the video
You mean the couple of paid actors...
science dads
I love how he can just randomly call them up and ask for a favour.
How many people can do that?
@@morpheus587 Bill Nye is never an Actor, while he may be payed for the appearance
@@gerdsteinwender7758 keep telling yourself that 😜
Professor Kusenko is a rock star. If only the rest of us could learn to apply the scientific method to our arguments - and act (and react) with such honesty.
This is exactly how science should be.
A great example, and a great experiment.
When people of science disagree, the world learns something new.
the great debate in astronomy is probably one of the most mind-blowing
Yeah, disagreement in science usually has people learning new things.
You mean people, not men. Wake up dude!
What happens when those disagreements are shut down and censored?
@@paulgibby6932 I'm sorry. Didn't mean it like that
This is one of the greatest science videos ever made, because it's showing actual SCIENCE. Disagreement is at the HEART of science, and this video shows how we go about resolving those disagreements. I love this so much.
We would need this kind of science for researching Coronavirus, and not this political mayhem.
Yes, it also shows that scientists are never authorities on truth, nobody is - the argument from authority is still a fallacy. Everybody can be wrong. It's morally wrong to censor "misinformation" based on personal opinions of scientists. This will not only corrupt scientists because power corrupts, but it destroys the only viable way to get to truth: Discussion among honest actors. CZcams's anti-misinformation guidelines are very misguided and dangerous.
@@thulyblu5486 yes and no, there are some things we know for certain. How Neil Tyson said "we know the earth rotates around the sun, no one is going to change that. Now that we know it we can make more refined questions, lije what kind of orbit is that?". There is neither an universal truth or "universal lie", yes most things are debatable but not everyone has the authority and should have the power to do so, flat earthers do only damage and keep on beating a dead mule, sorta speak. Not saying you are or that im angry at you or something, and sorry if im rant-y, have a good day!
I agree. It starts with disagreement about what we see or understand, goes on to hypothesis, construction of experiments to test, and then refinement of understanding to explain it. it's a process, not any one result.
@@oammaslastnamethei3063 wrong... the point you miss is that sure, tyson is certainly right about the earth... but the point is that if joe bloggs the bartender with no scientific experience came along and refuted the claim with evidence to prove it wrong, tyson would happily concede and the science books would be happily rewritten...
I.e tysons perceived authority in science doesn't mean jack .. only his ability to back up his claims..
The idea you think that not everyone has the authority to debate a scientific principle goes against the exact thing that drives progress in science.... EVERYONE can and should debate all scientific principles if they can back their claims up... no matter their percieved authority
Translation for an industrial engineer. An electric motor with a gearbox can increase the speed of the output with the same energy input. Energy requirement stays (relatively, minus friction) the same despite increased speed, and given there is enough torque to move said object on output shaft the output will move faster.
Flippin' spectacular effort! Love it!
"a disagreement is an opportunity for everyone to learn something new" so simple and powerful. Just beautiful.
Yes, this is definitely a quotable quote. I'm saving it for future uses.
"Because I wanna know" is the biggest reason why we humans have come this far.
Thank you.
Religious people hate this kind of think
Just keep Politicians well away?
@@whoooshmeifyougay4482 Funny because Richard Dawkins calls "why" questions silly.
@@whoooshmeifyougay4482 you got a story to tell us buddy?
@@mohammedyasin2087 not really, only disconnected "why" 's are silly
Respect! Such constructive debates should be the norm in our engineering community. Both the Gentleman- You both are a class act. 🙌Loved every bit of this video 🎥
Great vid and you present your ideas well and intelligently. Also, props for including Xyla, that woman doesn't know how to fail! She will beat a problem into submission with brains and determination.
Respect to the professor. Willing to challenge a belief then concede the point when the evidence was compelling. This is pure science at its heart.
especially since some of his concerns/challenges are actually valid concerns that should be tested for, with a "fail condition" (i.e. how the hypothesis can be disproven)
the wind gradient for example, is a really good challange, because there is a diffrence in wind speed as you go higher, and a tall land based wind powered vehicle could make use of that to travel faster than the ground wind, even if the operator doesn't realise it.
to disprove the hypothesis that the wind gradient is causing the vehicle to appear to go faster than the wind, you just need to show that the vehicle is going faster than the wind at the highest point on the vehicle. (or test in an enviroment where the wind gradient is minimal, like in a hanger with a fan model and a treadmill, probably with a treadmill set with a variable speed control to simulate the vehicle moving across the ground. that way twind speed, and the vehicle speed.)
the gust hypothesis (a high gust of wind pushes you faster than the "normal" speed, which may look like you are traveling faster than the wind. The treadmill set up would also be a great way to disprove this hypothosis.
@@Reverend_SalemThe treadmill test is flawed though. By holding the car on the treadmill, the force the person imparted was greater in the beginning as it not only kept the car at a constant speed but also used the resistance of the wheels to build up the speed of the fan to the point where the gust from the propeller exceeded the resistance of motor powering the propeller at the treadmill’s speed. As the fan got faster and faster, she had to use less force to keep the car still, and eventually had to use slightly more force in the opposite direction to keep it still . She was essentially charging the propeller like a battery.
This would be like if there was a 30mph wind gust, but the resistance of the gears is increased such that cart can only reach 15mph and the rest of that energy is used to power the propeller. Then the wind gust drops to 15. You reduce the resistance of the gears so that all of the wind gust goes to pushing the cart forward, but the propellers still have inertia so they push forward with the energy built up under the 30mph wind gust. The cart will lurch forward faster than the 15mph wind gust, just as it did on the treadmill.
@user-vt4up5ij9d i ment a tredmill test where the fan pushes the cart forward, and the treadmill is calibrated to keep the cart relitivly centered. (i.e. the treadmill is reacting to the cart.)
basically, like chasing the cart with a fan. the fan is actually the thing doing the pushing, the treadmill is mostly to make it so you dont have to run around a large area with a fan.
what a professor he is . without analysing through and through he came to bet .
@@user-vt4up5ij9d brilliant comment. 👏
The demonstration with the multi-wheel cart being pushed by the board was a brilliant experiment that suddenly made it so clear exactly what was happening.
Definitely the best demonstration
Agree
In fact those who're familiar with yoyos should've experienced phenomenon with the same principle.
That's the easy part, it's just gear differentials. The part that's hard to wrap your head around is where the extra energy comes from.
If it was just gear ratios, you could connect the rear wheels of a car to the front wheel with a gear ratio between and use that to accelerate the car. That doesn't work. I can guarantee it.
The real trick is extracting energy from the lower difference in wind speed and the car, compared to the car's speed to the ground.
Which you can do using gear ratios.
Agreed 100% everything clicked there
For simpler terms, the wind behind the propeller is just like a wall and the fan is a hand pushing against the wall.
not quite as in your case the car wouldn't move away from the wall
I've been caught up in the news of identity politics, inflation, immigration, war, exploitation...and needed this 😂. Smart people, disagreeing with respect, searching for evidence and facts then changing their minds with grace, in respect of the truth! If only we could spread this to other human fields! Thanks to all involved.
"What i love about science is that disagreements are not problems, they are opportunities to learn something new." That is a very good message, a great mindset to have.
Love this comment, if everyone could have the same mindsett about everything we’ll be flying cars to mars at this time (srry, bad english I’m from Norway)
You don't know much about the scientific community they attack and harass anyone who has a differing view from the herd. Even when the person has loads of evidence to support their claim they shun them and try to discredit them without any evidence to back their own claims. They are afraid of change and stuck in a dogmatic view on many fronts.
@@LightBender777 you're right, but that's more an issue with scientists, not science
@@LightBender777 It isn't only scientists; it's human beings in general.
i'd like to see verita talk with nye about basic human biology such as how a man is a man and a woman is a woman and you cant swap between them then watch as a disagreement suddenly turns into a problem
Now THIS is a very good example of a scholar who is really dedicated to learning, not oneself’s pride. I honestly think UCLA is blessed to have such an awesome professor!
ucla has a prof that believes in perpetual motion devices lmao.
He also did utterly fail to do any research. The science was established beyond a reasonable doubt.
The professor is going to be publicly known as a fool after this. He's going to be hearing jokes about this from students for the rest of his career. Even his wife will be pissed at him for losing $10k. I had a professor in engineering school that said it is impossible for an electric motor with a propeller on it's shaft to be able to lift it's own weight. I wonder if he ever sees these drones flying around and has reconsidered his position.
@@alexkram No. The professor was correct that the explanation was faulty in that there was a singularity issue. This prompted him to rethink a model which led to him believing that it wouldn't be theoractically possible. Turns out that if you use a nonlinear model for force and momentum, you get a perfectly convergent model for the power transfer.
Ok
I love everything about this. Very good critical thinking by the professor of course: his potential counter explanations are what we need to get to the bottom of phenomena.
This is great example how world may not be intuitive and imposible is possible. Beauty of physics and open minded way of thinking. You deserve nobel . 😁👍
For all the flat-earthers out there, this is how real science is discussed.
With m0$$$Ney!!!!
Except when its about covid lol
well said, arthur
Fr
@@Mike_Dubayou My condolences for your notifications for the next few days. Godspeed, king.
Big respect to Professor Kusenko! Didn't just believe what he was told.
More respect that he actually honoured the bet!
@@StaK_1980 As if he had a choice. I can't imagine how he feels about this, R.I.P. Professor Kusenko
I think it is important to also acknowledge that being a skeptic isn't only about not believing what you are told. It also requires one to offer a counter explanation for a phenomenon and conceding when the evidence does not support your model.
So...if the wheels are turning the fan, once it is moving do you still need the wind?
@@andrewjenkinson7052 Yes, think about this from the perspective of the treadmill where the "wind" is just still air, and the ground is moving instead. From this perspective, "removing the wind" is equivalent to placing a fan that blows against the front of the car. This means the car will stop because it is not being pushed and the propellor is ineffective due to wind direction.
Congratulations 🎉 😊
Opportunity to learn!
Now that's Brilliant ❤
The little wheel thing is what solved it for me. I understood the explanation but seeing it in visible terms made a difference.
"Disagreements are not problems -- they're opportunities."
I LOVE that frame of mind. Adopting it changed the tide of my relationships forever.
If more people were thinking this way, the world would progress faster. I want to congratulate Derek for his tangible contribution to the very evolution of mankind!
Also, thank you for reminding me of what I love about science: I hope that I will be able to instill in my own children the value of always examining the facts, no matter how firm our pre-existing convictions about any topic may be.
Yeap. To some of us the personalising of outcomes is plain weird too, but not altogether unconstructive. A nice way to think of it for those who may or may not possess a competitive mindset but don't see a role for personalising things is to consider generalising about the outcomes: if either definitively 'win' such a bet, humanity wins - it's a distributed outcome of further knowledge, which we assume/hope continues to be a mostly positive thing. Personalization (to a degree) can often be a catalyst for increased motivation to solve things. Though i personally believe curiosity is a more enduring/compelling motivation which is far more constructive to foster, generally speaking.
In general too I think people learn more from losses and losing in these sort of situations and are more inclined to be attentive in such scenarios. So much can be learned by seeing what went wrong in a misunderstanding.
I think Derek is wrong, the professor who conceded defeat also didn't understand the problem well and his math not good enough to prove Derek wrong.
Reason: The way Derek is proving his theory was by using a threadmill, this is wrong to begin with, they didn't see a simple problem with the experiment where the treadmill is actually providing an extra force/torque to the wheel powering the propeller, this is basically cheating, the torque generated by the friction between the wheel and threadmill is similar to having a battery on board the vehicle/trolley.
If they would have had carried out the experiment with vehicle/trolley just powered by the wind. They will see the trolley speed can never exceed the wind speed.
The reason because, 1) the car will never gain enough push from the wind to get up to speed with the setup they showed in the previous video. 2) the backward force generated by the propeller will be cancel out /reduced by the forward push by the wind thus generating neglegible force to give extrac kick to the trolley.
Unfortunately we need a very good mathematician prove the above. There's no physical experiment that's fair enough to prove who's right and who's wrong.
I hope someone can see my message, then convey the message to Derek, so he can correct his mistake and return the money to the professor.
I'd take this one further and extend it to failure and mistakes. Especially in education, tests treat failure states as a bad thing rather than embracing them as learning opportunities.
And what is a failure state but a disagreement between how the student understands the subject and how the teacher does. Rather than taking these opportunities to teach and learn, we instead punish the student for failing. Which typically does not generate a desire to continue learning - especially with repeated failure.
As technology advances we're creating more and more ways to support teachers and provide them the time needed to actually teach while taking away the time-intensive tasks that do not directly teach the students anything.
When people know how to talk respecting at least the time for the other to speak, it works perfectly!
As a professor, I must say, it's awfully nice to imagine what it would be like to have $10,000 to throw away on a bet.
Tru most educators are horribly underpaid
Get a tenure at UCLA
Edit:UCB*
The real question, are you going to show this to your students after the next semester starts?
@@ghouldrago360 most "educators" peddle propaganda and junk science.
Don't encourage them.
Especially in California
Incredible video! Incredible Work! We need more scientific, technical, and educational material. Interesting Physics and Mechanical Engineering with all of these Immensely Knowledgeable & Brilliant Minds.
Fantastic and very informative. Keep it up.
Takes a big man to swallow his pride and admit defeat. Huge respect to the professor.
Good point. I don't know if I've ever bet someone money about something I was 100% confident I was right. I'm sure they're well compensated in their professions, but $10K is still very different than betting $10. I don't think too many people, regardless of financial standing, would agree to such a large bet if they believed there was a fair chance they'd lose. Maybe the professor understood that (including as Derek said...a public bet to boot) and was fine with it, but I'd bet (let's stick with $10K ;) ) he was confident he'd win. So right...says a lot about one's character by paying up a solid chunk o' cash like that.
Good character these days, is especially valuable. I believe we're more influenced than we might expect by others higher or lower nature even if only indirect or casual contact. Faith in humanity is underrated, but entirely within our power to improve.
unless it was done for money from youtube this guy is a full time youtuber ,,,there are lots of videos on here going back 12 years if this professor did any research at all he would have been stupid the take the bet .....me ....I think it was all done to make money and there was no money sent to him or he would have shown the transfer,
It's sad if correcting your viewpoint in the light of new evidence requires you to be a big man.
@@HeikkiJuvonen I don't think it was new evidence as there are videos and news reports on here 12 years old and you don't have to look far to find then ,,,,,just type 'faster than the wind ' and they are all there ...surely he has the brains to do that.
If all scientists placed a bet. Science would be a LOT better. Scientists would be far more careful of what they claim to be certain. No politics would come into it. Think about that. (But we must make sure no crowd funders pay their bet for them!)
"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy."
- Issac newton
_Howard W._ Newton
You mean the guy who had no friends?
@@juanpablosanchezaveleyra6454 you are the type of person Newton was talking about, Pedro
that's a great quote, but Newton didn't exactly practice those words, ie. Robert Hooke (who was not exactly the epitome of diplomacy himself)
@@Dan_Kanerva Congrats, now we are two, ironic right? LOL. At least I was making a joke about the ERB video where Bill Nye calls Newton a guy with no friends. Besides who Was I being mean to? Newton? I don't think he will mind a little joke.
What you and kusenko are doing for science is very commendable!
I love the board and wheel example. We analyzed this problem in my engineering dynamics class and the math checks out. Please put some shoes on though.
Major props to the professor. It's incredible difficult to admit your wrong in your area of expertise. Congrats to him
sad that his conclusion was formed by learning an incomplete "shortcut" equation regarding prop force.
True
@@timq6224 can you elaborate?
@@FrenchcoreFlava The formula presented in the minute 5:16 is a "simplified" form of the formula presented in the minute 13:40.
@@FrenchcoreFlava The equation for the propeller force is just an approximation based on the velocity of the wind and the vehicle. So the fact that it gives you an infinity when the two velocities are the same is because the equation is not "exact" but only a (first-order) approximation and not because the scientific basis of deriving it is wrong.
14:25 Now THAT is a perfect demonstration. You've replaced the "wind" with a rigid object and the relative speeds of the various components can be observed quite directly. For me it really helps put everything into perspective. Bravo.
I'm still working my head around the forces involved there.
So you apply a forward motion to the object, and that makes the wheel spin backwards propel it forwards at a higher speed than the force being applied.
Saying it out loud does make it work a little better in my mind, it's just the top wheel rotating backwards that feels strange, since how is it applying the forward motion when the wheel is moving backwards. Friction working oddly?
And thoughtfully put at the end of the video after all the complex explanations like the last nail in the coffin
@@Quiczor the top wheel is "rolling along" the board -- as in, it is using the force from the small wheels to traverse the board, as if the board were the ground on which it is moving.
While the board instigates motion in the system, what scales the speed is the gear ratio between the large and smaller wheels. This gear ratio is what enables the large wheel to sprint along the board, rather than *only* reacting to the force the board is applying to it.
Same
@@WarrenEnstrom understanding that gears are levers which give a mechanical advantage proportional to the gear ratio is the key to understanding what is going on here.
I love this channel. And i love the fact it has millions of views and subscribers, it gives me a little hope and evidence that people are not only interested in stupid sh*tty internet content. This is high quality well thought content, and i just love it.
The thing is is that people have to be willing to change their ideas in light of what is true and its so cool to see scientists doing this instead of closing their minds on these topics. Well done to the professor
I salute the professor, without his courage and a open mind, everyone will be still in doubt.......
Exactly my thoughts, also 10k is a bit too much, this bet should be over a dollar so next person won't be afraid to bet.
This guy was my professor for an intro physics course and he was amazing
@@TheElijman Well, if you're ever in a position to bet Derrik then you can tell him that. Although if you were in such a position I would assume you would actually have $10,000 since you would be a physicist.
Agree. Hats off to the Professor!
@@kimyapeyvan654
I know! I love Professor Kusenko. Took him for Physics 1A
When you just casually have the clout to call up Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson to witness an bet.
All of us can do that. But when Derek calls, they answer. :)
Nye and de Grasses are not real scientists, they are narcissistic personalities who haven't done a paper in years.
@@Im_Not_From_Around_Here I'd argue that inspiring the next generation of scientists is just as important as the work they've "left behind."
@@Im_Not_From_Around_Here where's the narcissistic tendencies though? I agree with kilikus, having them interest a generation to pursue the sciences is just as, if not more so, important than them continuing on papers. Tyson definitely, because he is a black individual in the STEM realm and highly regarded, helps to break down barriers
@@Im_Not_From_Around_Here narcissistic? how about they're just monetizing their likable personalities?
The best part of this video is that facts determine outcomes, not feelings. The world could learn a lot from this.
Bravo for the professor for his integrity. It only makes him greater.
You mean for refusing to admit he actually got it wrong, when he very definitely actually got it wrong?
"Disagreements are not problems: They are opportunities for everyone to learn something" 16:08
I try to apply this in business and am regularly disappointed how often people take sincere curiosity and attempts at open-minded disagreement as a personal or professional attack. Cheers to the scientists who keep it real.
I feel you. Every time you question anything in business context you are marked as a negative influance, and often get met with attacks on your person and motives as a response to honest inquiery.
and god forbid if you applied logical evidence based analysis and scrutiny of every evidence to the victimhood claims of women or non-whites. Lol they come with harpoons wanting to kill anyone who tries to fact check them
@@sweepsweep5572 Strange, I find most people who claim to be using "logic and evidence" against victims of discrimination presume to know more about someone's experience than the person living it. Every single time I've witnessed someone claiming women and people of color don't face discrimination, it's only because they themselves are ignoring the mountains of evidence that the discrimination is real, dangerous, and deadly.
@@davetoms1 that's definitely not ALWAYS the case. Especially in this age of Smollets.
@@Nostalgia_Addict which is why I wrote "most people" and not "all people", despite it always being the case for my experiences engaging in those conversations.
“Disagreements are not problems, they are opportunities for everyone to learn something”
- Derek
Meanwhile our government and media censor medical information relating to the virus, in some western countries even jailing doctors.
@@OGPatriot03 who is jailing doctors?
@@lassea Australia
Except for COVID-19 where science is a dogma
In modern society, disagreements are big problems and a reason to orcastrize people and murder someone.
I think an auxillary sail under the propeller could make looking at the vehicle more intuitive
but I may be wrong about it's effect on the vehicle
Brilliant from all involved. Kudos.
Props to the professor for being a man of Honor. It's not easy to be wrong, especially not in the academic circles
I would be happy to be proven either correct or wrong, it really puts an end to a never ending knowledge struggle.
Maybe this will serve as a lesson to college students to not blindly believe everything their professors tell them
Hello friends 🥰
Because I'm not famous like other singers that's why no one see my music videos. Please see once and then decide ❤️
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Nice pun
Hard cheese - they're only human, and we humans ARE fallible; that's the whole thing about learning - YOU LEARN things you didn't know before. Anyone too arrogant to be open to change of mind, is a fool.
"I can watch him and not worry he's gonna mess up" pretty good endorsement.
Well, he should have worried, because he messed up here. The treadmill example is absurd and he doesn't seem to know why.
@@Rundvelt love to just say stuff with no justification
@@Rundvelt I'm missing the why. What's absurd about it?
@@Rundvelt leaving a comment bc I wanna know too
@@Inanedata Ok, so while on the treadmill, the prop is being directly powered by the treadmill, not the wheels.
The power from the treadmill is converted to the spinning of the prop, which provides enough force to overcome the friction of the ground and drive the car forward. And it doesn't really matter how fast the car goes.
However, with the wind, when travelling in the same direction, once the car exceeds the speed of the wind, the wind is no longer accelerating the car, it's momentum being converted into the driving of the prop. So, for the vehicle to keep going, and faster by the way, the force of the prop must add more momentum to the vehicle then is converted to the prop to drive it forward.
So, that's why this doesn't work, and why the treadmill doesn't represent what's going on. Hopefully that helps!
dude awesome achievement in your physics and youtuber carreer, respect. That’s a like and subscribe right there🎉
The explanation with the little kart using wheels of different sizes was perfect, thankss
“So I asked Neil Degrasse Tyson, Bill Nye, and Sean Carol to be our witnesses.”
You know, all casual-like
Ikr! That's totally badass.
imagine just being able to casually say that
@@jbaer8 Interesting. We called Gordon Ramsay and Jamie Oliver for that.
Well veretasium has almost 10mil subs
"Disagreements are not problems."
The political left and political right in the United States: *strangle and strawman each other at the same time*
i want this as a tattoo now...
@George Jacobs No problem 😉
They can become problems when one side refuses to concede even in the face of evidence they're wrong. Fortunately, that wasn't the case for these folks! Much respect for not irrationally digging in their heels on the subject.
We can amend it and say "Disagreements don't have to be problems" if you like?
The result matches my intuition on the topic, although I did indeed misunderstand the direction of propeller rotation. Glad you won your bet!!
13:50 Is why Derek is one of the greatest science communicators of all time. First he explains HOW it will work with the math and lever examples. Then he shows you an instantly understandable demonstration of the EXACT effect actually happening in an intuitive way.