Is Shimano 105 Just As Good As Dura-Ace? | Di2 Edition!
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- čas přidán 13. 06. 2024
- A few years ago we tested Shimano's 105 and Dura-Ace mechanical groupsets against each other, and learnt that they were pretty much, in terms of feel, exactly the same. But Shimano has since released new versions of both, and what's more they're both Di2 only! So is there any difference? Is Dura-Ace still virtually exactly the same as 105? Alex and Si conduct a series of tests to find out!
In association with @RideShimano 👉 gcn.eu/Shimano
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
02:28 - Challenge 1: Hot Lap
05:32 - Challenge 2: Blindfolded Outdoors
08:10 - Challenge 3: Braking And Climbing
11:49 - Challenge 4: Blindfolded Indoors
16:28 - Conclusions
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What do you think of Shimano 105 being Di2 only? Let us know your thoughts in the comments below!👇
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What do you think of Shimano 105 being Di2 only? Let us know your thoughts in the comments below!👇
Ok, I'll bite. What is Shimano 105 DI2? Pretty sure it's more rare than the Hooded Grebe
Having used Di2 for a while now, it still strikes me as a solution looking for a problem, and doubly so at the riders 105 is aimed at. My experience is that Di2 does nothing that well set up mechanical shifting won't do, only at considerably more expense and without the "fixability" of mechanical systems. I'll be moving the bike on soon and going back to an exclusively mechanical fleet.
EDIT: In fairness, I should say that mechanical shifting doesn't allow me to have "extra" shifters on top of the hoods, which I can see is a possible advantage (although I can shift mechanically from most hand positions anyway). Nor indeed can I control my Garmin using mechanical shifters, but given that it's on the handlebars anyway, that doesn't seem like a particularly useful feature!
So from this and previous videos should we update the rankings. Tiagra mechanical groupset of the people and 105 di2 electronic groupset of the people. My next bike will be 105 di2. Got a close up view at a Ribble test day.
Do it with the same wheels if it’s a groupset test!
I will always prefer mechanical for fixability of the go. Plus v important during the expected blackouts expected to come in Uk not to have to think about these things.
As they always say, if you have to pay your own money for Dura-Ace, then you don't need it....
I got a dura ace di2 I just like the name
Bingo
Yupper
@@user-nu5fx6en9h asked… bloody genshin Player
105 if it's your own money. For anything better the sponsor or team is paying for it.
They’re more similar than ever! Even the price differs far less than before😕
is 105 still the Groupset of the people? 🤔
@@gcn mechanical yes, electronic no!
Three reasons I went Ultegra 8100 over 105 for my upcoming build. First, the hidden buttons are meaningful to me. Second, the brakes. Third, in a weird and somewhat lucky turn of events, 105 Di2 was (and remains) in short enough supply that some places were (briefly at least) selling it for *more* than Ultegra, which is bonkers.
Sounds great! Bet it's a nice build
I've seen that too. I also saw people selling SRAM Rival for nearly the cost of SRAM Red. Who is buying this stuff at these prices?
So now, if they wanted, Shimano can literally program a tiny delay in the 105 shifting to make it feel worse, even when its capable of the same shifting speed.
But then you can pay to upgrade the software in the shifters you already bought! That doesn’t sound dystopian at all
@@Jackisaboss1208 It's like BMW's subscription for seat heaters. Watch them charge for a subscription fee for faster shifting or some crap. I'll stick with my mechanical shifters.
It's the same for Intel CPUs, they manufacture them all the same in one family. Then they disable specific subsystems and sell these at a cheaper price.
@@milandjilas Yes but then, at least in the past, there was usually a physical difference between the CPU's still. If it turned out not exactly as good as they had hoped, they could still disable parts of it and sell a higher-tier cpu as lower tier.
Creepy thought. Yuck! Even nastier is that it's possible
The thing is, just because you can feel a difference, doesn’t mean it changes your actual performance in any meaningful way negatively. I can feel the difference between my Chevy Cruze and my wife’s SUV, but they both get me to work on time in the same time.
You should compare the best setups from Shimano, SRAM and Campagnolo in a technical nerdy way and a subjective test.
Would be a great idea but GCN is sponsored by Shimano so that won’t ever happen. ☹️
@@mattm9689 damn that’s fucked
@@mattm9689 they say only sponsored by Shimano wheels, so hope still exists for the group comparison. 🤞
Another brilliant review! Glad noone wiped while blindfolded. I am really fortunate that I have a Trek Domane ProjectOne with Ultegra Di2 12 (2022) and I bypassed the DuraAce (a fantastic option, but at a substantial price jump) because the group weight and the performance differences would be imperceivable for me as an amateur athlete (and still in my first year back in about 35 years off of cycling). At the time of my purchase, the 105 group wasn't available in a Di2 12 cassette version. Any of the 3 top Shimano groups are so good, for most people it comes down to budget and preference than performance.
Great analysis and dynamic . Simon and Alex should do more videos together. Thank you.
That was one of the most amusing and enjoyable product comparison videos you've done in a long time. Especially Si trying to ride blindfolded.
Even blindfolded, Si is still better at clipping in than Matt back in the day.
🤣
🔥
Wonderful! Amazing way of telling us about something. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the video. As someone who likes and wants to continue using mechanical shifting, I hope Shimano doesn't plan to stop making mechanical groupsets.
They will once they become cheap enough to produce at the entry level but I imagine that's a good while away
Mechanical is here to stay, DI2 can be a great upgrade, for those that want it 👌
@@whatwelearned Entry-level mechanical costs $25 for a shifter or derailleur. There's no way all the electronics of Di2 would be cheaper to produce.
@@trainiax That's not close to true; Tiagra levers are 115 and if you count that as mid level then Claris levers are 85. No, electronic won't be on £250 bikes but that's not what we're talking about
@@whatwelearned Well, if you limit "entry level" to bikes with named groupsets with STI levers above a certain price point, then of course the shifters are more expensive - but that somewhat misses my point.
The point is that a mechanical shifting mechanism by itself is not expensive to produce - Acera or even Alivio flat-bar shifters (equivalent to Claris or Sora) are indeed not much more than $25. But that's the only potential cost savings for Di2 since it's the only component that's eliminated. STI levers are more expensive in part because they combine the braking mechanism - and that doesn't change with Di2.
I also mentioned derailleurs - because up to now, Di2 derailleurs have been massively more expensive than mechanical: 3 to 4 times the price of their same-tier mechanical counterparts, and 10 to 20 times the cost of an entry-level derailleur. That huge price gap will never disappear as long as they have all the same mechanical bits with a motor and electronics added on top.
I was really interested in Ultegra and loved your conclusion. Keep up the fun dialogs.
Think we need a Di2 Shootout.....105 Vs Ultegra Vs Dura ace. 🤞🏻
Di2 stand off, sounds great! 👀
I love Shimano...on my pub bike. I do wish in fairness though that you would occasionally discuss Shimano on your website. I know your obsessed with Campy all the time but Shimano make very good urban bike bottom brackets and their road group sets really are quite good and deserve a mention.
Great video Si and Alex.
Since I started riding in 1994, Dura Ace has always been the coolest name in cycling. I’ve always wanted a bike with Dura Ace, but never had one. I currently run SRAM Red ETap and life it, but one day I’ll have Dura Ace.
They say you should never meet your heroes. ;)
I just bought my first decent road bike, got a Tarmac SL6 Sport with mechanical 105s, and from the all reviews about the group set, I think i made the right choice. Difference seems negligible for a big price difference.
Granted, I didn't try the eTAPs
The obvious next test is Dura V’s Ultegra V’s 105 on IDENTICAL bikes, and wear ear muffler’s when doing the blind test, then it’s completely subjective, no?
Nice to see GCN making use of their Sauna for bike testing purposes.
You guys have the best job.... ❤️
Si, I have tears running down my face listening to Si sharp!
12 speed 105 mechanical would be nice, if Sensah can do it surely Shimano can.
Road cycling has become an Instagram flex game of dentists and posers. You can't get a decent bike for less than 2k now. Shimano is adapting to those trends, it looks to me.
@@pierrex3226 DI2 is great as long you do not forget to charge it 😂
@@Zwiesel66 I'm sitting on a bench a few km from home because my EUC ran out of juice, so yeah, electric things are great, as long as they have battery...
Having a sleeker front derailleur near the ankles might be a big plus for some. 🙃 I was riding 12s HG+ on the MTB for a few years before I got my road bike (11s Ultegra mechanical) and shifting to a harder gear immediately felt clunky. HG+ makes a difference.
Perhaps it's one of those things that you get used to and its hard to go back 🤔
@@gcn Absolutely! This small plus makes more difference that it seems. I still don‘t understand why they made a non-HG+ 12s for 105. On the MTB it‘s all the way down to Deore.
Roadies are willing to pay more.
Am I right in thinking that swapping the cassette for an Ultegra cassette to get the Hyperglide+ would result in *almost* the same shifting feel as Dura Ace? A new CS-R8100 (Ultegra) cassette is £80-£90 in the UK at the moment, depending on the size. Swapping it appears to be one way of addressing one of the few real shifting differences, and would seem to be a sensible upgrade. Is that correct, or am I missing something?
I just love the way you roast Hank over the front wheel comment 😂
HyperGlide+ is down to the chain and cassette, so why not run 105 mechs, levers etc... and a Dura-Ace cassette and chain?
That was great 👍. You should also do with a power meter, each of you do a ride keeping a consistent power, and time it
Probably make minimal difference, given a margin of error it would likely be the same
That gauge on the 105 bike at 17:06, that is some well dropped chain right there. What happened?
They can hear though by the sound of the wheels, the dura-ace one has deep wheels. Also, could be mistaken, but the one bar width seems wider than the other.
Pumpkin shoes for Halloween. That's the spirit.
One of the really cool things I noticed about the dirt Ace 105 on my 2017 Cannondale 6 was that it was one of the versions that didn't have the free Hub on it
So the next question is what difference you would have using the Dura Ace shifters with 105 mechs.....? Would the mech's change the speed of shifting?
I wondered this also, 105 group set with ultegra mechs and cassette for hg+
Are they still going to keep making the 105 mechanical groupset? Or is the Tiagra and Sora going up a speed?
Alex screaming left reminds me of Ross screaming pivot in that one episode of FRIENDS.
12:39 "So I can clearly NOT choose the wine in front of you!"
I'd love to see a comparison between 105 mechanical and Di2.
Interesting, what would you choose? 🤔
@@gcn Electronic shifting sounds luxurious, but I’m a simple (and not particularly mechanically inclined) man who lives mostly in developing countries - if anything breaks down, I’ve got to fix it myself. If I had ready access to reliable bike shops (and had excess cash) then Di2 would be tempting, but would the theoretical marginal gains in ease or performance outweigh the costs to simplicity in maintenance and (perhaps) reliability?
Could you add the GRX groupsets into these comparison video's?
Got a gravelbike and wanna upgrade to either a grx600 or a tiagra but wondering what the big differences are between both sets.
For Gravel we would recommend the GRX upgrade. For road perhaps Tiagra is better. All depends on the type of riding you are hoping to do 😊
Any chance to do a comparison between 105 vs Ultegra Di2s?
I don’t know much about biking but 2 things seems a bit weird to me.
1. They boys on the track talking about how each set feels, but coming from motorcycling I would argue the wheels have the biggest impact in that area and these 2 bikes are using 2 different wheel sets.
2 on the climb they were talking about if they could feel the difference of the 600g weight, but the bikes have water bottles on them, and really any water level different would impact on the level of a couple hundred grams
I use Ultegra because it’s a nice middle ground between 105 and Dura Ace.
Me too, and honestly, if you shop around and wait for sales and bargains, Ultegra can be had nearly as cheap as 105 - and when I was building up my last two bikes, Ultegra was still a HUGE jump up in performance over 105. That gap has closed somewhat though. Today, if I was building a new bike, I'd be taking a very serious look at 105 and weighing out the prices.
Wait so in "tests" you basically can't tell a difference, but the conclusion is there is a difference? Plus you said at the start that you have identical bikes, but at the end you justify the overpriced dura-ace by saying that the bike overall is much better equipped?
Like guys at least dont dismiss your own points when you try to sell these overpriced components and bikes.
Could u upgrade the 105 cassette with a ultrgra to get the HG+ ?
Seeing that clip of Si crying while listening to James Blunt. Reminded me. I'd be crying if I was listening to James Blunt. I would want a song to motivate me. Not said "screw it". Then throw my bike in to the nearest big hole in the ground and catch a bus. I would need something from Metallica, Iron Maiden or Testament. Great video. Still can't afford any of these groupsets yet.
With regards to weight, we’re going backwards with Di2. my ancient ultegra 6600 is lighter than both of these.
Hi GCN! I am 5ft8 and my inseam is about 77-78cm, can you help me to find my BMC slr 01 size? Many thanks
Is it worth it to comparing 105 R7100 to mechanical dura-ace R9100 or ultegra R8000?
Meanwhile I still have Campagnolo Veloce 10 speed. It's not perfect, but they made absolutely no effort to make it look or feel cheap, which is why I like it so much.
I rode Campy 10s for years. Btw, there was virtually nothing between Veloce and Record for Campy either. 10 speed is the sweet spot. If you want good, economical cable shifting and my preference, try Sram Rival 22 mechanical. I even prefer it to Campy mechanical and I rode Campy for decades.
No electric shifting for me and I build all kind of bikes including high power ebikes.
@@lukewalker1051 I'll never use SRAM except for 7/8 speed cassettes for random builds. I work as a bike mechanic and SRAM is by far the least enjoyable stuff to see coming into the shop apart from Shimano Tourney. I'm a big fan of inexpensive 8 speed drivetrains, Shimano Altus, Acera etc. They shift flawlessly, cost very little, and are much more forgiving. Yeah, the pivots might wear faster but the tolerances are so forgiving that it doesn't really matter.
blindfold biking …sounds like a good challenge to throw Hank’s way.
Alright so I firstly, get job guys this is a very comprehensive comparison. That being said, one particular mention stood out to me. The feeling a light bike has as you push up a climb - bikes today weigh a sh*t ton in comparison to a few years ago. With most high end bikes weighing the same as 105 spec bikes from 2016, have we actually moved forward? Yes disc brakes help and improve confidence but gone is the sleek short cage derailleur instead of the one size fits all and the actual lightweight sub 16lb bikes that used to be attainable. People today pay 16000 for a 17lb long cage, wide ratio bike. It’s too bad we have to compromise straight blocks and lightweight builds to satisfy a need to continuously change standards
Shimano and Sram are getting close to having their gigantic mountain of patents expire for their original electronic group sets. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they continue down the hierarchy of product offerings, knowing that "generic" offerings are coming soon to compete.
Most patents expire after 15 years, di2 was released 13ish years ago which likely means - if you include tooling/manufacturing lead times taking it from patent to test to manufacture to test then to produce- that the bigger broader patents are months away from expiring.
Also, Sram's wireless shifting glove patent as well, apparently, thanks google.
Nowt that a black sharpie marker and a couple of stickers off Etsy couldn’t sort out… good fun - ride what makes you happy
I’ll never stop laughing at that James Blunt clip 😝
Loved the video
Subtle changes in my mind do make a difference.
Just leaves the one big question or maybe 2
Which is better in top range and mid range
Campagnolo Shimano Sram .
Electronic shifting
I've tried all 3 in mechanical and found only the shifting different
What did you prefer? 🤔
@@gcn tuff choice between shimano and sram .......mechanical Sram
No difference at all for me. Both over 1500 of any currency, therefore I am not going to have either
I'd pay 1500 Colombian Pesos
I’d pay 1500 Hungarian Forint and save loads on it 🇭🇺❤️
electronic shifters are great option to have, but it is not self-sustainable.. it can be run out of battery at some point. it could be a weakest link.
my mix upgrade 105 derailleurs, claris cassette, absolute black oval inner ring and kept the a070 shifters and wihtout doubt i feel the difference
105 looks good for endurance bikes which might have been fitted with GRX until now.
Ultegra for me
12:55 “Never engage in a battle of wits with a Sicilian!”
How about doing a SRAM Rival vs Red comparison?
I have Shimano Tiagra 10×2 in gravel bike and it Good for me 😊 smoth and confortable
That's crying out to be done on the tandem - blindfolded would totally be a go
Just Blindfold the pilot perhaps. 🤣
I'm curious to know, I'm running ultegra 12sp groupset, can I use the 105 12 sp cassette? Only because of cost difference.
yes you can, but max to 34s on back
A better comparison would be to do the test blindfolded, ear plugs in, and some sort of knobby gloves. That stops the other senses from taking over and you could tell if there is a difference
But you can narrow the gap significantly by upgrading to the 105di2 to the Ultegra front mech and casette (8170). Those upgrades would cost an extra £300 rather than an extra £1,600. Then the only thing you don’t have the is the servo wave technology and the extra di2 buttons.
where was it filmed?
Can anyone tell me the Orbea orca reference exactly please
could you make a video about Shimano vs Sram?
My road bike is a Canyon Endurace. I love the frame and how it rides. I fully plan to upgrade to 105 Di 2 to make it my forever bike.
Nice bike James! 🙌
The question now is: are the previous Dura Ace 11s better than the new 105 Di2?
Should’ve done first gen di2 vs new 105
So the difference between the two groups is wait but it sure is fun to watch our favorite presenters frolic
So, is there a single 105 component that can be switched out that would close the gap and make it more difficult to tell the difference? Can the electronic groupsets even mix and match the same way that the mechanical ones can? Obviously, GCN could put the exact same wheel or crankset on both bikes. How about other components? That would seem closer to the type of setup someone who builds a bike up rather than just buys it outright would have.
Use the Ultegra 8170 front mech and cassette. You’d then have a claimed 45% faster shifting.
Est-il possible d’acheter le 105 complet et ensuite de mettre les deux dérailleurs en dura ace tout en gardant les manettes 105?
@@Granpire merci pour cette réponse car je met toujours du 105 en manette et le reste en dura ace progressivement (mécanique) en cas de chute les manettes 105 coûtent moitié moins chère et fonctionnent pareil(c’est encore plus vrai en di2)
Love that detail analysis that proves I was right to get Ultegra 12sp on my Canyon!
Bit of positive reinforcement is always welcome 🤣
I have mechanical 105 geoupset rim brake. I know they don't make rim brake 105 geoupset di2. What model can I use to upgrade mine? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I ride a Trek Emonda SL5 2019 rim brake
Does it need upgrading? It's probably good for years yet... I'm still riding 1990s 7 speed RSX shifters which work perfectly on my daily ride!
@@Bu-22 thank you 🙏
Ohhhh, should have tried 105 for the indoor test because that's the majority who care for! Nice video anyway
Mechanical 105 had a major flow in that if you were trying to shift into big ring middle of a hill its often not very effective. Otherwise it was a good groupset and more importantly a cheap groupset.
Mechnical dura ace on the other hand was the best mechanical groupset ever made frankly and it was very light.
Really diff between DI2 DURAACE and 105 is really about the weight which might seem small until you add up a entire build.
Full dura ace builds can often be 2-3kg lighter than a 105 di2 build and that kinda of weight especially for a lower weight rider could be a fairly substantial advantage on the climb.
nope, campagnolo record was waaaay better than dura ace
There may be a difference in Dura Ace and 105 Di2, but on a Ribble Ultra SLR is it really worth the extra £3200?
Heck no lol! That money better spent on new wheels or crankset and gps computer
105 with ultegra or DA cassette?? why not compare?
If both bikes would have the same cassette (ultegra ultra glide+) chain, and good bottom Bracket, after a shift. what would be the difference? they should both Di2 shift the same. . And pedal the same. Stick with 105?
I remember my first bike had 105. And I was like man I wish I had Durace like my friend. And then I stopped riding and sold bike. That was 10 years ago in college. Now I have a gravel from Cannondale with Adventx and to be honest it’s all same thing for me. I’m not that advanced to care. If I learned one thing, just ride and have fun. If I lose 40 pounds by riding bike I’ll be way faster than upgrading to Durace.
Great point! The top end parts are really nice, but enjoying the ride is the most important thing 🙌
@@gcn I often can’t stop smiling while I’m riding my bike. It’s like being a kid again. So fun
There has to be a difference otherwise you couldn't justify the higher price dura ace. The most important thing is whatever group set you have just get on your bike and ride and have fun 👍
600 grams is not nothing.
The difference is only in your mind 😉
@@Zwiesel66 plus scales and wallet.
@@defenderoftheadverb it's more than 600 grams because your wallet will also be significantly lighter than if you buy 105
Great point Mark. Whatever gets you out on your bike and fires you up to ride, is the best option 🙌
Si truly has a dizzying intellect.
Inconceivable!!!
Even with all of the videos from gcn and other youtube channel , i still cant see the justification that i need before switching to electronic groupset.
Chorus 12 speed is 2/3 the price of 105
What happens when the battery goes down and there's no electricity to recharge it?
Very well-researched and fine-made video this is. Cyclists favorite Channel
Thanks for watching🎉
Don't see how ramps on the cassette would make any difference at all to the feel or speed of shifting into harder gears - the chain only touches the sides of the cogs when shifting into easier larger gears? Know it's a paid promotion, but sounding incredibly all-out advert with the promotion of "Hyperglide Plus".
I’m assuming you can run a DA cassette with 105Di2 but would be more restricted with gear range?
@@kekkonenprkl 😂😂😂
Maybe a combo of all the 3 groupsets would be the perfect bike. For exemple, I ride long roads and don't use my brakes much, but I constantly shift in the rear and only when climbing hills in the front. So a combo of mainly Ultegra with a rear Dura-Ace derailleur and 105 brakes would be perfect, and an extra climbing shifter on the bars (105 can't do that).
But my big pb with all these are the cassette options which don't suit me at all. Love my current 12-25 (got an 18 instead of the useless 11), which is perfect !
you can start to see the difference on 0:05, with 105 having chain snap marks on the frame 👀
I think Ultegra Di2 11 Speed with 105 Crankset and Cassette. Is still the way to go if you want Di2.
like putting Deore LX vs XTR.
I use Ultegra but a Dura-Ace chain. However, 1600 Hrs training and a 5kg flab loss, over two years has saved me a fortune in upgrades.
Great video, would love to see the same for SRAM Red Vs Rival.
Exactly the same internals just heavier materials, although a new range of force and red incoming soon
@@tombola4046 fr? Can you send link
Can’t speak for the 12 speed but on 11 speed 105 I kept warping rotors until I swapped out to XTR and Ultegra pads, no trouble since then. Shifting wise I wouldn’t expect much difference.
What about Ultegra vs Dura Ace, looking from performance and build quality perspective? Weight difference aside, because it's small anyway.
That's already been determined; Zero difference.
You just don't get to say "Dura-Ace" when you describe your bike! 😂
105 with a Dura-Ace cassette is all you need then ?! …. When I was a kid (and fast) I had Dura-ace …. The first gen STI levers - OMG - coming from 105 down tube shifters at the time - I could tell the difference 😂
Exactly what I was thinking. Swap out a cassette for D/A and the weight diff decreases and so does the diff in shift quality, and some of your hard earned $. But the fact they had to listen to the sound of a FD motor says they couldn't tell the difference blindfolded.
Could you go back to Down tube shifters 🤔
@@gcn well - at the time I was doing mostly 10 and 25 mile time trials with Tri-bars on my road bike - so actually down tube shifters were pretty good
I love ShiManon