Awesome! Then you may like this channel overall. Lots of product design takes already in my design videos and reviews… and plenty more running product design oriented content coming! Stay tuned!
Very well explained and informative. For Nike, ZOOMX just has to work together with a carbon fiber plate to provide propulsion, the market response of streak fly (it's still a good shoe but elite runners don't like to wear it for racing) have already demonstrated that ZOOMX without plate just don't work as good as shoes with the combo. Invincible 3 is another example that even if you make the ZOOMX thicker in the midsole, without carbon fiber plate, it's not really for speed training but more for daily wearing/jogging.
Fully agree. ZoomX is best with a plate (or a carrier foam). However, it really works well in conjunction with other materials (plates or foams). On it's own though it can be lacking something. I loved the Streakfly, but it definitely did not have the same punch as a Vaporfly.
Excellent video👍. Really good work👍. I do a lot of tests myself to see which running shoe is the most effective. One thing I often think people forget to talk about when comparing Nike carbon shoes with Adidas (lightstrike pro) is the difference in durability. You get a lot more mileage out of lightstrike pro than ZoomX. And in a world where we have to think about the environment, I think it's an important thing. This is where Nike can and must improve in the future
LSP is just so much more dense, chemically speaking, that it last forever. I think Nike is going the route of recycling ZoomX... though it seems spotty. Thanks for the kind words and support!
@@SagasuRunning Recycling ZoomX is just not the same as regular ZoomX. But maybe they will find a way to solve it🤞. I haven't seen all your videos. But I have to😀. Keep up your good work👍
Interesting take on the plated trainer situation that I largely resonate with. I personally have a preference for a light flat as my default. And I struggle to find a trail shoe that does the job I need nut isn’t a brick in my (large) size. I have an intermittent history of hallux irritation on one side which was originally a traumatic injury that presented like gout and is now basically osteoarthritis that rarely flares up. The ideal management for me to keep going through this is a stiff rockered shoe with a fairly firm midsole foam - specifically I have had success using the Boston 10/11 and Adios Pro. I otherwise don’t really like these shoes but they have a use for working through this problem for me. They said I don’t personally see how I could make use of a Mach X or Kinvara Pro though. On the trail side I am really intrigued by the NNormal Kjerag which is absurdly light for a trail shoe: 255g in my size. And it has a simple design with high-end materials that can even be resoled by a cobbler! Unheard of. NNormal will also recycle them. This is essentially the polar opposite of the tech strategy you are describing in this video driving Hoka and Saucony to keep adding models.
We seem to be of the same mind and biomechanics. I too prefer light flats for much of my running AND have a history of hallux limitus from years of stuffing my feet into 2-3 size too small snowboard boots and skateboarding. I work daily to keep what flexibility I do have in my big toes and don’t have an issue most of the time, even with flexible shoes. In fact if I run in rigid shoes too much, like The Takumi Sen 9 or Adios Pro 3 my toes make me aware of it. I guess they prefer Vaporfly flexibility (relatively speaking) after all these years. Same with the Adios 8 vs Streakfly for me, though to a lesser degree.
Hi! At 14.37 you show a still of an adidas designer explaining how Energy Rods work and you say you can't find the original video where the capture comes from. It's not a capture but a picture and I know it pretty well since I took that photo at adidas HQ back in April 2022. Mystery solved!
Thank you very much@@SagasuRunning ! My YT handle is fine. Just for reference, the photo appeared in Runlovers, an Italian website on running which I run with my co-founder. It's been great to see the photo in your video!
@martinopietropoli I’m always careful using images from sources I’m not fully clear on… but finding a 3/4 shot of the Adidas Energy rods is very difficult. This shot was perfect! Credit added and thank you!
Terrific explanation. As a Quality professional involved in design control for highly-regulated industries (aerospace, biotech, medical devices), I can appreciate the level of detail involved in design and development.
Definitely, once you get into it it’s fascinating. Someday I hope to have access to both Nike and Adidas there I can REALLY get into this topic with info directly from the sources.
As a shoe geek, I'm loving your take about this topic. Carbon plates and rods have their own strengths and weaknesses. I'm enjoying both of these shoe techs. I would like to know your take on the Alphafly as the carbon plate on that one has a different shape compared to the Vaporfly.
I’ve done a lot or AF3 technical content and have talked about the plate configuration differences in my “Choosing the right Metaspeed for you” video. I’m not a fan of the “high plate” configuration, I much prefer the “low plate” configuration in the Vaporfly. I’m thinking I need to make a video, outside of the Metaspeed issue, to address this.
I appreciate the kind words and support. I have a "part 2" (sort of) on this video coming out Thursday morning EST. Adidas has made some big moves lately. Stay tuned.
In the heel area and in the rear and middle thirds of the forefoot area, Adidas should have engineered pockets of air beneath the rods so their close position to the heel does not affect the foot sinking into the (somewhat firmer) Lightstrike Pro, maximizing impact softening properties while landing. In the remaining third up front, the one that does not get stressed until rolling and toe-off, no air pocket for the rods to sink into. This would have the effect of giving the rods an immediate abutment support against which the rods can catapult the heel into the air by virtue of our own weight, power, and momentum. One could even argue that this enhanced rocker-catapult-mechanism might profit from a carbon cross-ridge at the bottom between thirds 1 and 2 of the forefoot, provided this can be engineered without compromising comfort. Same mechanism as prying open a door essentially, just that we're working the short end unfortunately.
Terrific video, one of my theories was that Nike developed the carbon plate because Adidas was so far ahead in the energy return foam technology. When Dennis Kipruto Kimetto set the marathon record in Adidas in 2014 Nike was really under pressure to do something.
I agree, Boost did shake things up ALOT... but in 2016/17 Nike caught Adidas (and the industry) very off guard with both ZoomX and the spooned CF plate. Id say that was an even larger disruption that Boost was. Though I do see Boost as a proto super foam.
Thanks for the perspective. Totally agree. Plated shoes are fun and exciting. Running should be fun and exciting!( after the pain😅) Plated shoes should be one tool in the box. My experience with the plated racers, is that they only reach their gorgeous potential if I’ve been putting in the miles on the regular in other shoes and I really have my legs under me. As for plated trainers, I can’t speak to that as I have yet to make the plunge. Pretty tempted tho😊
Yes! Plated race shoes feel AMAZING after you’ve put in the work in “normal” trainers and built a strong foundation. Training plated shoes full time will just void that work overall. Not the end of the world but also missing one of the (many) pleasures of running… lacing up those extra fast race shoes.
Great video. I know people who have snapped energy rods... But not known anyone snap a carbon plate... That said all these supershoes have a very short lifespan.
Breaking a CF plate takes much more force that a normal running stride will apply. It can happen but is rare and usually due to a manufacturing defect. Cracking is more common, especially on the lateral side. Adidas’s rods are inherently more delicate and (as I said) need the firmer foam to support them. As adidas moves to softer foams it will be interesting what they do here (as I’ve pointed out in multiple videos about that).
I think someone at nike saw what athletes like Oscar pistorious were doing with carbon blades and transferred them to shoes. Adidas obviously looked deeper into the anatomy of the foot and matched the metatarsal bones. Nike, as a company come up with a lot of ideas, and then they sort of chuck them together, and every now and then, they get it right. But they also have a lot of flops. Just look at how poor their running line up is below the alphafly and vaporfly.
Nike’s research and development of the Vaporfly 4% is well documented, much better than Adidas’s. All brands looked at “the blade runner” and asked “what-if. I remember some Adidas prototype shoes that had literal blades on them. Nike and Adidas do take different approaches to development… though I agree Nike has more flops, at least at the consumer level (Shox, Joyride, etc)
Only the Prime X 2 Strung has a plate, in fact the PX2S has two plates in it. Additionally, the geometry of those plate(s) is nothing remotely like the Vaporfly.
Great and very clear explanation and keeps me engaging content as always. Couple of questions. 1. any side effects of those running in rods vs plate everyday?Some said it is bad to use carbon plated or carbon rod everyday?Not sure what is the right answer or if there is any? what about those who train in carbon fiber plated or rod shoes? 2. Another question is when people are talking about energy return, what it is exactly? Is it like a trampoline effect? but i guess that should be called "bounciness"? Are they the same? Or is thr term energy return can really be measured if someone would test in lab?
Your questions 1). While there are no studies specially saying running in plates or rods 100% of the time is bad… if you think about it you aren’t letting your foot and ankle flex naturally so by running in plated shoes 100% of the time you are loosing a big training stimulus. Training in plated shoes, even often, isn’t a problem… just make sure to mix in a non plated trainer for the alternative training stimulus. 2). Energy return isn’t exactly bounciness. It’s about how quickly the midsole rebounds to its neutral state once it’s under load. Carbon plates can aid this to a small degree…. But their real purpose is stabilization and/or creating a platform for the foot to effectively load the foam of the midsole. They can also aid in helping the foot roll over the toe, especially with very high stack shoes.
Exceptional insight. Top level. Interesting to hear your prophetic forcast that Nike/Adidas will once more push ahead come say 2025... clearly Saucony has enjoyed an incredible 2-3years with their endorphine line. Do you see them building on this to compete or are signs suggesting that the big two through their R&D and engineering will forge ahead once more? Appreciate you are not here to take sides rather offer a professional opinion from a PD perspective. Be interested as to how you see the market morphing. We see Asics with well built shoes (as ever) yet maybe just maybe Flyte Foam Pro is not in the same bracket in terms of its properties? Love to see your thoughts in time on the Asics/Saucony/New Balance/Puma foams and design journey's. Thank you for making shoe videos of genuine class with rigour.
Thank you for the kind words. I’m glad the content is interesting. Nike and Adidas are ALWAYS going to compete. Adidas was the leader until Nike dropped the Vaporfly and I’m sure Adidas is currently dying to be back on top. I think the Prime X 2 Strung is offering a glimpse of where Adidas is going. That I’ll be covering that shoe and will get more into it around that one. Interesting you bring up Asics. I will have a lot of Asics content coming out in August as I’m spending alot of time in their shoes lately and I think they have something very interesting going on that might be “the next big thing” in running, at least a new trend I think we will see all manufacturers try in the next 2-3 years. I’ll have a video on this point specifically in 2 weeks or so. As for foam… check my “Superfoam resiliency” video, I go into the foam thing fairly deeply and hit some of the other brands I don’t discuss much on this channel. I try to stay objective and open minded here but I do have my likes and dislikes for sure. Both as a runner but also as a product designer. I do try to remain fair and call out the bad when I see it, for all brands, and not hammer too hard on something I dislike when they really do something awful. It is a fine line for sure. 🤙🏻
I watched some reviewers saying that for adidas rods, after using it for quite some time they hear broken glass when they shake the shoe. I mean eventually after some high milage. It seems since the rods are thinner they are more prone to breaking? Does this make sense to you? BTW great explanation, a very informative video! 🎉
One of the design flaws (or challenges) of the rods is they are less structurally resilient than a full plate. So they can break. Adidas has engineered around this with the denser/firmer Lightstrike Pro foam, but due to the cutouts in the midsole and prolonged use they do break occasionally. I've never personally broken one, but it's only a matter of time. As Adidas moves to softer foams, like Lightstrike Pro Evo, breaking rods is going to be a larger issue. I've made a few deeper-dive videos on it; Adidas Adizero Adios Pro Evo 1 Revisited czcams.com/video/93m7C4x8Z6s/video.html Where does Adidas Adizero go from here? czcams.com/video/r_TKjQ5kIM8/video.html Is the Adidas Prime X 2 Strung the future of Adidas Running? czcams.com/video/T7O4qG98afA/video.html Hopefully those videos are as interesting to you. 🤙🏻
Personally i think Nike can do it because Zoom x is sooo soft , actually too soft by it self (that sinking stuck feeling like in the invincible) which makes the plate an integral part in its performance. Adidas could ditch the CF i think and go for a more flexible material that returns to its original form as fast as CF because their mid compound is more dense than Zoom and the mid is thick enough to keep that toe off form (if snap is what Adidas is looking for) . CF for me is too brittle (especially in rod form) for it to give a desired flex with durability. Example (cracked my Metaspeed sky plate going down the stairs (landed flat, midfoot on the edge of the stairs) and that is a plate , also there were rod failures in the Adi Pro 2 . Sorry i have a hard time explaining in english. Adidas torsion plate was good enough and i think Adidas just wanted to just join the CF bandwagon . When it comes to weight of both , that is another story. Love the chanel BTW.
I think the rods are a great solve by Adidas for LSP. But yes, rods are fragile. I’ve had a few friends also crack Asics CF plates… they are just so rigid. I’ve never known anyone who cracked a Nike CF plate though… at least form normal use. Thanks for the support and kind words! 🙏🏻
great videos - i was wondering - whats your view on the wisdom of doing all your running in carbon plated shoes? There have been lots of noise about an increased injury risk doing this. In the context of this topic do the rods present a safer option?
I'm not a fan of it... But I'm also not a fan of doing all of your training in one type of shoe. Shoes are tools and having the right tool for the purpose is important. Training effect, injury prevention, etc... all key. Doing the SAME thing all of the time is more the issue. Training in plated shoes is fine by me, I do it often (In fact I had a great session in the VF3 today). But tomorrow I'll be in another shoe. Specific to rods... I'm not PT, BUT...from a product designer's POV... rods could be better as they allow for more lateral flex while providing longitudinal stiffnes. BUT... not all carbon plates are the same. I'm actually testing this out now for an upcoming video, which is why I was in the VF3 today. Nike's plates are very unique as they have the pop and propulsion we all want from a plated shoe...but they are much less stiff laterally. I think Nike's plates are much thiner CF material than most other brands Carbon Plates. Asics, for example, has VERY rigid plates that feel like blunt instruments compare to Nike. The last thing I'll say is that so much depends on your own gait, foot strike, toe flexibility, foot strength. It becomes very subjective. I'm currently working on some videos are this subject. Stay tuned. Thanks for the kind words. 🙏🏻
So the logical evolution might be some kind of carbon net, that is hollow inside... because the benefit of a whole plate should be that there are less moving parts meaning less energy wasted... I wish they'd use graphen in their superfoams or anything, thatbmakes them last longer...
Use of graphene in a midsole foam with raise costs nearly exponentially and is unnecessary. In the outsole compounds it could be useful. I carbon lattice could work to strengthen the rods, it could also be applied to control the stiffens and flex properties of the midsole...but would be complicated and costly to produce at scale.
@@user-qx2yd7rs1q Not sure I agree there. The rods are a much more dynamic and tunable solution. They offer more options for Adidas that a CF plate with fingers.
can't confirm or deny...I really like Elite, fast, stable, wide. 21 km run was the same in my shoe all the time, which I can't say about Adios pro 3. Adidas became after 15-16 km less responsive.
My understanding of the interest of carbon plate is to act as a lever. The spoon form is there to retard toe off lever action. Where you run your foot lands mid foot, the spoon shape allows the use the foam above the plate for confort, and when you reach the plate, tow off starts, pushing your heal up. The rods do the exact same thing, with them pushing the heel plate up on toe off.
Partly. The plate does aid in helping the foot up and over toe off, especially with higher stack or stiffer foams (like Lightstrike Pro). So yes, rods do this, while allowing for more lateral flex in the shoe. A plate also stabilizes the shoe or foot in the shoe, depending on where the plate is located in the midsole in relation to the foot. Rods don’t do a good job of this. Rods are really a unique Adidas solution thwt really only works with the much more dense and firm LIghtstirke Pro.
Carbon plated/rods have alot of uses in running but only really if you race or need to train for long distance speed. Other that haha a non-plated shoe will be your best be 90% of the time.
Well snowboards are generally much heavier than a running shoe… which allows for the use of more carbon fiber and resin material to strategically target flex and torsional twist. That requires something much thicker and heavier than would work in the midsole of a running shoe.
As someone with a product design background who’s gotten severely into running shoes recently, this video was amazing
Awesome! Then you may like this channel overall. Lots of product design takes already in my design videos and reviews… and plenty more running product design oriented content coming! Stay tuned!
i’m not a runner but for any sneakerheads that are into techs, your content is satisfying.
I’m glad it was interesting! 🤙🏻
Very well explained and informative. For Nike, ZOOMX just has to work together with a carbon fiber plate to provide propulsion, the market response of streak fly (it's still a good shoe but elite runners don't like to wear it for racing) have already demonstrated that ZOOMX without plate just don't work as good as shoes with the combo. Invincible 3 is another example that even if you make the ZOOMX thicker in the midsole, without carbon fiber plate, it's not really for speed training but more for daily wearing/jogging.
Fully agree. ZoomX is best with a plate (or a carrier foam). However, it really works well in conjunction with other materials (plates or foams). On it's own though it can be lacking something. I loved the Streakfly, but it definitely did not have the same punch as a Vaporfly.
Excellent video👍. Really good work👍. I do a lot of tests myself to see which running shoe is the most effective. One thing I often think people forget to talk about when comparing Nike carbon shoes with Adidas (lightstrike pro) is the difference in durability. You get a lot more mileage out of lightstrike pro than ZoomX. And in a world where we have to think about the environment, I think it's an important thing. This is where Nike can and must improve in the future
LSP is just so much more dense, chemically speaking, that it last forever. I think Nike is going the route of recycling ZoomX... though it seems spotty.
Thanks for the kind words and support!
@@SagasuRunning Recycling ZoomX is just not the same as regular ZoomX. But maybe they will find a way to solve it🤞. I haven't seen all your videos. But I have to😀. Keep up your good work👍
@Treadmill Running I agree… it’s not… but that is there solution for now. We will see where they take it.
I appreciate the support. 🙏🏻
As a fine artist, i appreciate the breakdown and thoughts on the process of progress of each brands on carbon plating
Awesome! I’m glad you found the content enjoyable! Plenty more like this coming on this channel over time.
Interesting take on the plated trainer situation that I largely resonate with.
I personally have a preference for a light flat as my default. And I struggle to find a trail shoe that does the job I need nut isn’t a brick in my (large) size.
I have an intermittent history of hallux irritation on one side which was originally a traumatic injury that presented like gout and is now basically osteoarthritis that rarely flares up. The ideal management for me to keep going through this is a stiff rockered shoe with a fairly firm midsole foam - specifically I have had success using the Boston 10/11 and Adios Pro. I otherwise don’t really like these shoes but they have a use for working through this problem for me.
They said I don’t personally see how I could make use of a Mach X or Kinvara Pro though.
On the trail side I am really intrigued by the NNormal Kjerag which is absurdly light for a trail shoe: 255g in my size. And it has a simple design with high-end materials that can even be resoled by a cobbler! Unheard of. NNormal will also recycle them. This is essentially the polar opposite of the tech strategy you are describing in this video driving Hoka and Saucony to keep adding models.
We seem to be of the same mind and biomechanics. I too prefer light flats for much of my running AND have a history of hallux limitus from years of stuffing my feet into 2-3 size too small snowboard boots and skateboarding.
I work daily to keep what flexibility I do have in my big toes and don’t have an issue most of the time, even with flexible shoes. In fact if I run in rigid shoes too much, like The Takumi Sen 9 or Adios Pro 3 my toes make me aware of it. I guess they prefer Vaporfly flexibility (relatively speaking) after all these years. Same with the Adios 8 vs Streakfly for me, though to a lesser degree.
Hi! At 14.37 you show a still of an adidas designer explaining how Energy Rods work and you say you can't find the original video where the capture comes from. It's not a capture but a picture and I know it pretty well since I took that photo at adidas HQ back in April 2022. Mystery solved!
Thank you! I’ll credit you in the description. Do I use your CZcams name? What’s your preference?
Thank you very much@@SagasuRunning ! My YT handle is fine. Just for reference, the photo appeared in Runlovers, an Italian website on running which I run with my co-founder. It's been great to see the photo in your video!
@martinopietropoli I’m always careful using images from sources I’m not fully clear on… but finding a 3/4 shot of the Adidas Energy rods is very difficult. This shot was perfect!
Credit added and thank you!
Your engineering explanation of these plates and rods of supershoes really makes sense! Thank you so much!
Thank you for watching. I hope it was useful and you learned something.
Terrific explanation. As a Quality professional involved in design control for highly-regulated industries (aerospace, biotech, medical devices), I can appreciate the level of detail involved in design and development.
Definitely, once you get into it it’s fascinating. Someday I hope to have access to both Nike and Adidas there I can REALLY get into this topic with info directly from the sources.
@@SagasuRunning 👍
As a shoe geek, I'm loving your take about this topic. Carbon plates and rods have their own strengths and weaknesses. I'm enjoying both of these shoe techs. I would like to know your take on the Alphafly as the carbon plate on that one has a different shape compared to the Vaporfly.
I’ve done a lot or AF3 technical content and have talked about the plate configuration differences in my “Choosing the right Metaspeed for you” video.
I’m not a fan of the “high plate” configuration, I much prefer the “low plate” configuration in the Vaporfly.
I’m thinking I need to make a video, outside of the Metaspeed issue, to address this.
We are learning so much for your crystal clear videos! Amazing! Your channel deserves to grow so much more. Thank you!
I appreciate the kind words and support.
I have a "part 2" (sort of) on this video coming out Thursday morning EST. Adidas has made some big moves lately. Stay tuned.
Amazing. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you! 🙏🏻
Never knew this I wear the Addias shoes, great information cheers
Glad it was a useful story. 👍🏻
Excellent overview. Do more of these!
I have some more topics planned for later in the summer and the fall. Stay tuned. 🤙🏻
Former Marketing and Product/Brand guy here…your videos are fantastic!
Thank you. Glad they are finding an audience. 🙏🏻
Amazing explanation of the technologies! Thank you!
Thank you. Glad it was interesting! 🙏🏻
In the heel area and in the rear and middle thirds of the forefoot area, Adidas should have engineered pockets of air beneath the rods so their close position to the heel does not affect the foot sinking into the (somewhat firmer) Lightstrike Pro, maximizing impact softening properties while landing.
In the remaining third up front, the one that does not get stressed until rolling and toe-off, no air pocket for the rods to sink into. This would have the effect of giving the rods an immediate abutment support against which the rods can catapult the heel into the air by virtue of our own weight, power, and momentum.
One could even argue that this enhanced rocker-catapult-mechanism might profit from a carbon cross-ridge at the bottom between thirds 1 and 2 of the forefoot, provided this can be engineered without compromising comfort.
Same mechanism as prying open a door essentially, just that we're working the short end unfortunately.
Interesting ideas. Adidas couldn’t go near any type of air pocket or air unit in their midsole… Nike would end that quickly with a cease and desist…
Terrific video, one of my theories was that Nike developed the carbon plate because Adidas was so far ahead in the energy return foam technology. When Dennis Kipruto Kimetto set the marathon record in Adidas in 2014 Nike was really under pressure to do something.
I agree, Boost did shake things up ALOT... but in 2016/17 Nike caught Adidas (and the industry) very off guard with both ZoomX and the spooned CF plate. Id say that was an even larger disruption that Boost was. Though I do see Boost as a proto super foam.
Nothing like a snack and hot drink and listening to one of these videos
🍿🍵🤙🏻
Great analysis ... I can see where the Adidas pretzel design has the potential to be a more dynamic - fine-tuned ride
Thank you for watching. Yes, the energy rods 2.0 system was a ig step forward for them.
Thank you. Very interesting and informative. Subscribed.
Glad you found the content interesting. Stoked to have you here.
Thanks for the perspective. Totally agree. Plated shoes are fun and exciting. Running should be fun and exciting!( after the pain😅) Plated shoes should be one tool in the box. My experience with the plated racers, is that they only reach their gorgeous potential if I’ve been putting in the miles on the regular in other shoes and I really have my legs under me. As for plated trainers, I can’t speak to that as I have yet to make the plunge. Pretty tempted tho😊
Yes! Plated race shoes feel AMAZING after you’ve put in the work in “normal” trainers and built a strong foundation. Training plated shoes full time will just void that work overall. Not the end of the world but also missing one of the (many) pleasures of running… lacing up those extra fast race shoes.
great work
Thank you! 🙏🏻
Great video. I know people who have snapped energy rods... But not known anyone snap a carbon plate... That said all these supershoes have a very short lifespan.
Breaking a CF plate takes much more force that a normal running stride will apply. It can happen but is rare and usually due to a manufacturing defect. Cracking is more common, especially on the lateral side. Adidas’s rods are inherently more delicate and (as I said) need the firmer foam to support them. As adidas moves to softer foams it will be interesting what they do here (as I’ve pointed out in multiple videos about that).
Great info!
Glad it was interesting!
Fascinating 👟🎓
🙏🏻
I think someone at nike saw what athletes like Oscar pistorious were doing with carbon blades and transferred them to shoes.
Adidas obviously looked deeper into the anatomy of the foot and matched the metatarsal bones.
Nike, as a company come up with a lot of ideas, and then they sort of chuck them together, and every now and then, they get it right. But they also have a lot of flops. Just look at how poor their running line up is below the alphafly and vaporfly.
Nike’s research and development of the Vaporfly 4% is well documented, much better than Adidas’s. All brands looked at “the blade runner” and asked “what-if. I remember some Adidas prototype shoes that had literal blades on them.
Nike and Adidas do take different approaches to development… though I agree Nike has more flops, at least at the consumer level (Shox, Joyride, etc)
The prime x series does have a plate more in the realm of the vaporfly; not? Only 2, but that doesn't discount indivisible trademarks...
Only the Prime X 2 Strung has a plate, in fact the PX2S has two plates in it. Additionally, the geometry of those plate(s) is nothing remotely like the Vaporfly.
Great and very clear explanation and keeps me engaging content as always.
Couple of questions.
1. any side effects of those running in rods vs plate everyday?Some said it is bad to use carbon plated or carbon rod everyday?Not sure what is the right answer or if there is any? what about those who train in carbon fiber plated or rod shoes?
2. Another question is when people are talking about energy return, what it is exactly? Is it like a trampoline effect? but i guess that should be called "bounciness"? Are they the same? Or is thr term energy return can really be measured if someone would test in lab?
Your questions
1). While there are no studies specially saying running in plates or rods 100% of the time is bad… if you think about it you aren’t letting your foot and ankle flex naturally so by running in plated shoes 100% of the time you are loosing a big training stimulus. Training in plated shoes, even often, isn’t a problem… just make sure to mix in a non plated trainer for the alternative training stimulus.
2). Energy return isn’t exactly bounciness. It’s about how quickly the midsole rebounds to its neutral state once it’s under load. Carbon plates can aid this to a small degree…. But their real purpose is stabilization and/or creating a platform for the foot to effectively load the foam of the midsole. They can also aid in helping the foot roll over the toe, especially with very high stack shoes.
@@SagasuRunning thanks for the great response!
Thanks for mohr understanding the plated shoes 👟 😅
I’m glad this was useful for you! 🙌🏻
Exceptional insight. Top level. Interesting to hear your prophetic forcast that Nike/Adidas will once more push ahead come say 2025... clearly Saucony has enjoyed an incredible 2-3years with their endorphine line. Do you see them building on this to compete or are signs suggesting that the big two through their R&D and engineering will forge ahead once more?
Appreciate you are not here to take sides rather offer a professional opinion from a PD perspective. Be interested as to how you see the market morphing. We see Asics with well built shoes (as ever) yet maybe just maybe Flyte Foam Pro is not in the same bracket in terms of its properties? Love to see your thoughts in time on the Asics/Saucony/New Balance/Puma foams and design journey's.
Thank you for making shoe videos of genuine class with rigour.
Thank you for the kind words. I’m glad the content is interesting.
Nike and Adidas are ALWAYS going to compete. Adidas was the leader until Nike dropped the Vaporfly and I’m sure Adidas is currently dying to be back on top. I think the Prime X 2 Strung is offering a glimpse of where Adidas is going. That I’ll be covering that shoe and will get more into it around that one.
Interesting you bring up Asics. I will have a lot of Asics content coming out in August as I’m spending alot of time in their shoes lately and I think they have something very interesting going on that might be “the next big thing” in running, at least a new trend I think we will see all manufacturers try in the next 2-3 years. I’ll have a video on this point specifically in 2 weeks or so.
As for foam… check my “Superfoam resiliency” video, I go into the foam thing fairly deeply and hit some of the other brands I don’t discuss much on this channel.
I try to stay objective and open minded here but I do have my likes and dislikes for sure. Both as a runner but also as a product designer. I do try to remain fair and call out the bad when I see it, for all brands, and not hammer too hard on something I dislike when they really do something awful. It is a fine line for sure.
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@@SagasuRunning Ah, I need to eatch that video too then.
Great video
Thanks for watching! 🤙🏻
instant classic 😀
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I watched some reviewers saying that for adidas rods, after using it for quite some time they hear broken glass when they shake the shoe. I mean eventually after some high milage.
It seems since the rods are thinner they are more prone to breaking? Does this make sense to you?
BTW great explanation, a very informative video! 🎉
One of the design flaws (or challenges) of the rods is they are less structurally resilient than a full plate. So they can break. Adidas has engineered around this with the denser/firmer Lightstrike Pro foam, but due to the cutouts in the midsole and prolonged use they do break occasionally. I've never personally broken one, but it's only a matter of time.
As Adidas moves to softer foams, like Lightstrike Pro Evo, breaking rods is going to be a larger issue. I've made a few deeper-dive videos on it;
Adidas Adizero Adios Pro Evo 1 Revisited czcams.com/video/93m7C4x8Z6s/video.html
Where does Adidas Adizero go from here? czcams.com/video/r_TKjQ5kIM8/video.html
Is the Adidas Prime X 2 Strung the future of Adidas Running? czcams.com/video/T7O4qG98afA/video.html
Hopefully those videos are as interesting to you. 🤙🏻
@@SagasuRunning thank you will definitely check these videos! Awesome vid content, more power to your channel! 👍
@wmgonzalbo 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Personally i think Nike can do it because Zoom x is sooo soft , actually too soft by it self (that sinking stuck feeling like in the invincible) which makes the plate an integral part in its performance. Adidas could ditch the CF i think and go for a more flexible material that returns to its original form as fast as CF because their mid compound is more dense than Zoom and the mid is thick enough to keep that toe off form (if snap is what Adidas is looking for) . CF for me is too brittle (especially in rod form) for it to give a desired flex with durability. Example (cracked my Metaspeed sky plate going down the stairs (landed flat, midfoot on the edge of the stairs) and that is a plate , also there were rod failures in the Adi Pro 2 . Sorry i have a hard time explaining in english. Adidas torsion plate was good enough and i think Adidas just wanted to just join the CF bandwagon . When it comes to weight of both , that is another story. Love the chanel BTW.
I think the rods are a great solve by Adidas for LSP. But yes, rods are fragile.
I’ve had a few friends also crack Asics CF plates… they are just so rigid. I’ve never known anyone who cracked a Nike CF plate though… at least form normal use.
Thanks for the support and kind words! 🙏🏻
great videos - i was wondering - whats your view on the wisdom of doing all your running in carbon plated shoes? There have been lots of noise about an increased injury risk doing this. In the context of this topic do the rods present a safer option?
I'm not a fan of it... But I'm also not a fan of doing all of your training in one type of shoe. Shoes are tools and having the right tool for the purpose is important. Training effect, injury prevention, etc... all key. Doing the SAME thing all of the time is more the issue.
Training in plated shoes is fine by me, I do it often (In fact I had a great session in the VF3 today). But tomorrow I'll be in another shoe.
Specific to rods... I'm not PT, BUT...from a product designer's POV... rods could be better as they allow for more lateral flex while providing longitudinal stiffnes.
BUT... not all carbon plates are the same. I'm actually testing this out now for an upcoming video, which is why I was in the VF3 today. Nike's plates are very unique as they have the pop and propulsion we all want from a plated shoe...but they are much less stiff laterally. I think Nike's plates are much thiner CF material than most other brands Carbon Plates. Asics, for example, has VERY rigid plates that feel like blunt instruments compare to Nike.
The last thing I'll say is that so much depends on your own gait, foot strike, toe flexibility, foot strength. It becomes very subjective.
I'm currently working on some videos are this subject. Stay tuned.
Thanks for the kind words. 🙏🏻
@@SagasuRunning Thanks for your considered reply
@@craigtsmith6957 As I said… I’m writing a video on this. In fact your comment got me to reopen that file. So expect it in the next few weeks. 🤙🏻
So the logical evolution might be some kind of carbon net, that is hollow inside... because the benefit of a whole plate should be that there are less moving parts meaning less energy wasted... I wish they'd use graphen in their superfoams or anything, thatbmakes them last longer...
Use of graphene in a midsole foam with raise costs nearly exponentially and is unnecessary. In the outsole compounds it could be useful.
I carbon lattice could work to strengthen the rods, it could also be applied to control the stiffens and flex properties of the midsole...but would be complicated and costly to produce at scale.
These bars in the Adidas pro 3 occasionally feel pressure on the foot. Then it goes away and happens again. Really painful, disturbing
I’ve never felt that in the AP3. I did feel it occasionally in the Takumi Sen 9 though. I agree, it’s annoying when you do feel it.
@@SagasuRunning Endorphin elite has these carbon finger extensions in a flat form....a much better solution
@@user-qx2yd7rs1q Not sure I agree there. The rods are a much more dynamic and tunable solution. They offer more options for Adidas that a CF plate with fingers.
@@SagasuRunning
can't confirm or deny...I really like Elite, fast, stable, wide. 21 km run was the same in my shoe all the time, which I can't say about Adios pro 3. Adidas became after 15-16 km less responsive.
My understanding of the interest of carbon plate is to act as a lever. The spoon form is there to retard toe off lever action.
Where you run your foot lands mid foot, the spoon shape allows the use the foam above the plate for confort, and when you reach the plate, tow off starts, pushing your heal up.
The rods do the exact same thing, with them pushing the heel plate up on toe off.
Partly. The plate does aid in helping the foot up and over toe off, especially with higher stack or stiffer foams (like Lightstrike Pro). So yes, rods do this, while allowing for more lateral flex in the shoe.
A plate also stabilizes the shoe or foot in the shoe, depending on where the plate is located in the midsole in relation to the foot. Rods don’t do a good job of this.
Rods are really a unique Adidas solution thwt really only works with the much more dense and firm LIghtstirke Pro.
Happy with just running without Carbon Plates or Rods in my shoes. Money saved and benefitting health wise from running..
Carbon plated/rods have alot of uses in running but only really if you race or need to train for long distance speed. Other that haha a non-plated shoe will be your best be 90% of the time.
Just make sure to mix in a non-plated shoe here and there to maintain foot strength and balance...running is a gift though!
@@SagasuRunning : Love my Kayanos.
This is not adidas first carbon plate shoe
The Adizero Pro was their first carbon plated shoe in the current super shoe era… that is what is relevant to this video.
These things break. Didnt they test em?!
That is a drawback of the rods. I’m sure they tested them and they have an acceptable failure rate. Though they do break occasionally.
spoon vs fork
Ha! The classic debate right there. 🥄🍴
You lost me at “A snowboard can be heavier than a running shoe.”
Well snowboards are generally much heavier than a running shoe… which allows for the use of more carbon fiber and resin material to strategically target flex and torsional twist. That requires something much thicker and heavier than would work in the midsole of a running shoe.