Ooh -Fan girl here. I'm so excited to have had the oppurtunity to hear this conversation with these 2 amazing people. Thank you Jen and NJACE for all that you are contributing to help others understand the neurobiology of autism.
Gratitude to Dr. Pagel and all participants. A glorious discovery of a new perspective of the most intriguing Vagus Nerve. A pity that study is not mandatory in the first year of Med School.
I have seen an instantaneous calming and focus response from using a melodic voice with individuals with autism. A sing-song upper register used briefly appears to help bring one back to relationship. It is usually accompanied by eye contact. This is not to be overused but is an interesting phenomenon and helpful.
Dr. Porges acoustic intervention explains why the Kaufmans Son Rise program was so effective, it used parental co-regulation to induce normalization in their son's traumatized nervous system.
Porges and others would benefit from reading Aletha Solter on handling "Tears and Tantrums" (one of Solter's many great books) because, with aware attention, a child -- and any human -- can thoroughly discharge tension, frustration, and pain with their natural body process if it is not interrupted. Her insights about the physiology of feelings and relief dovetail wonderfully with the fabulous insights of Porges and Dana about the three-part nervous system. To soothe or distract crying, upset children delays their finishing and causes suppression rather than resolution of their issue. Solter's books and writing cite research that will be of interest to anyone interested in the physiology of feelings, and her personal experience with parents and children are moving and thrilling. Her books and interactions are life-changing.
My life has been transformed since PolyVagal theory. It nit only helped me understand my clients with a neurological diagnosis- it literally saved my marriage. It helped me go from being an exhausted overwhelmed caregiver to having a reciprocal coregulation relationship. However, I am certified in HeartMath- their work is centered around heart rAte variation. I don’t believe that heart rate variability has been answered adequately by both speakers. Variability is more to do with the variability in the pulse to pulse beat within a minute. You can have the same heart rate but different variability- variability is more sensitive than heart rate . Can the question be asked again please. Thanks
Thanks Dr. Porges for bringing a paradigm shift in the thinking that a physician and drugs are facilitators. Have you looked into the philosophy of Eastern medicines such as Ayurveda?
Very enlightening and comprehensive. Survival itself as reason for agency and healing .nothing else is needed .reminded me about the power of sheer aliveness over all adversity
I have had a theory for over 15 years and this confirms some of my theory true. I asked myself we're autistic at all times, so why aren't the symptoms with me all the time? I then came to the possibility that maybe those things have nothing to do with autism at all. That made me begin looking for a common factor among numerous autistic people. Looking at ABA, whenever autistic people pretend to be someone they're not, stress and anxiety rises. Looking at cognitive dissonance autistic people head in the opposite direction stressing them out. They share their authentic opinions before being taught white lies. They hold on to their own (authentic) values and perspectives. I could go on, notice all these characteristics are linked to authenticity. My theory for over 15 years has being that autism is a condition of authenticity that underlyes what have been assumed to be symptoms. "You gotta challenge all assumptions. If you don’t, what is doctrine on day one becomes dogma forever after." John Boyd
As children we are all ourselves, we are individuals. As we get older, society expects us to develop and de-individuate, become less individual. Autistic people can not be de-individuated. Therein lies our difference.
I think there is a lot to this! I was only just officially diagnosed at the age of 39 (after a period of burnout that could not be ignored). And, the more I listen to the experiences of others...the more I'm kind of glad I WASN'T diagnosed as a kid! Because I think my parents stumbled on the right approach without needing a label, which was: carefully explain the social behaviors that are really necessary to avoid offending people, and teach how to identify and think through emotions...but otherwise just kind of let me be me. They didn't press for extra social activity if I clearly wasn't into it, and they encouraged my special interests - and emphasize that if someone is mean to you over small quirks...then they probably aren't a good friend to have anyway! It probably helped that we are a bookish academic family where alternating between quietly entertaining yourself and excitedly telling people the fine details of something you just learned wasn't seen as particularly odd by them or their academic friends. By contrast, if some doctor had scared them into trying to "fix" me...I suspect I would have had a LOT more melt-downs and shut-downs, and more problems deriving from that, than I actually experienced.
The focus on intensity of titration of pharmacological intervention not just partly but entirely misses an understanding of not targeted neural regional end points to produce certain overt (ie, caricature) behaviors but of the Intersubjectivity of feedback loops or the "central regulator" as Steve mentions. This is also the paradigmatic shift in our understanding of a "one skull world" to the interindividual or the "Interbrain." The "central regulator" is not intra or inter but intrapsychic-and- interpsychic. It in the betweeness or both side of the dyad that interegulation or co-regulation between autonomic nervous systems occur. Or as the great psychologist Winnocott said with regards to the infant/parent dyad, "Hete one plus one equals one." That is if you will a microscopic window into a greater understanding of how we are mammalian wired to interconnect with each other. Hence, the dispensing with a one brain world into an understanding of Interpersonal Neurobiology. The implications are potentially profound and transformative!
I need there help. Because I am a recipient of maladaptive treatment and a true misunderstanding of my situation. It has been and continues to be traumatic and debilitating. Isolated and so stuck. I’m not supposed. I am Alone and afraid. Victimized by a punitive approach to conformity. Ripped apart from my family. And prevented from finding a companion. By an aggressive she-mere campaign against me. It’s awful. So please if anyone can help me. It would be great appreciated.
We need to work on the origination of this problem. Then work on removing what’s blocking the part of the brain that’s turning children born perfectly healthy to sometimes vegetables. This was a nice hash out to witness. But I’m not seeing a resolution here.
I appreciate these cutting edge discussions but it still seems what no one will touch with a ten foot pole is what the CAUSE of such dysregulated parasympathetic tone is in the first place? Shouldn't that be the primary area of investigation efforts, especially considering the astronomical rise in its incidence since the early 1980's? In my practice as a manual therapist, we were seeing developmentally typical infants and toddlers collapse completely into these dysregulation patterns with weeks of their two year vaccinations. Now babies are developing these symptoms much earlier as the vaccine assault has deployed vaccines earlier than 2 years, at birth, and in high doses since this symptomology first started appearing. How do these injections cause such pervasive neurological damage? Is it in combination with congenitally or perinatally induced dysbiosis? Or is the autonomic injury more contributory to the dysbiosis? I wish researchers would have the courage and integrity to look at these factors rather than serving the AI/ blockchain managed social impact bond markets and investment firms funding this research.
Shalom Body and Soul Wellness, First of all, vaccines have no association with autism, so stop talking about injections. Secondly, autism has existed among the human race since ancient times. Third, it's not neurological damage, stop it with your neo-Galtonian doctrine. Autism is primarily genetic, their top theory to the cause of autism is it's a combination of genetic and environmental factors. I challenge that theory because autism is global so all the environments are different, so either every form of autism has a different cause or autism has no cause. The very genes associated with autism are inside of you as well.
@@danielmoore4024 Actually I have been working long enough to watch this "epidemic" play out, and no, autism is not "global." Are you a troll, working for the UN Agenda's or just really uninformed? czcams.com/video/W39DhJDYVSs/video.html
@@PropheticCoachTheresa I've studied autism for over 20 years. Andrew Wakefield was kicked out of the medical system for spreading vaccines across the EU. Across in America you believed autism was caused by bad mothers. I'm autistic, the autism criteria has changed 5 times. It's not possible to go from 1 in every 10,000 to 2% of the world's population in less than 80 years. They broadened the spectrum every time they altered the diagnostic criteria, before 1994 I did not fit the criteria even though I've been autistic my whole life. Autism is not an epidemic disease, you obviously don't even know what "epidemic" means. An epidemic disease spreads across only 1 region, not the world. Do your research.
I'm sorry you have that condition, Daniel. Please forgive me if this sounds patronizing, you sound very neurologically functional in your writing. The children I worked with developed neurotypically (that word wasn't invented yet then) until their 2 year vaccines. Then they would experience an overnight neurological crisis that would decimate they and their parents lives. Later, crib death became linked to vaccines as the infection schedule moved to earlier ages with more doses. In communities where vaccines are not imposed on babies autism is rare or not noted, such as Amish communities. It is not prolific in countries where the vaccine schedules, and pharma, is not in control of public policy. Yes there have been people who exhibit non-neurotypical tendencies likely throughout the history of civilization, but I am old enough to have witnessed this phenomenon unfold socially, and then later professionally engaging with it as a medical and alternative healthcare provider, as it exploded from virtually none to the occurrences we see today. There appears to be a gut-brain link to this as well, many positing that glyphosate use in conventional agriculture, along with the perversion of food in manufacturing with preservatives, artifical and so called "natural" flavors, which are engineered to chemically stimulate the taste neurons in the gut, and EMF pollution, which is proven to disrupt microbiome, are likely instigators as well in the phenomenolgical etiology of what's causing this extreme vagal tone dysfunction. And people are effected by these things in many ways, not just presenting with "autistic" labeled symptoms, but also immune issues of all kinds such as so called "autoimmune" disorders, allergies, IBS, etc, anxiety, ADD, and on and on. There appears to be an assault on humanity from many fronts but only a few hands originating its making. Dr. Porges et el are sponsored by directly or indirectly and are professionally aligned with the UN's "sustainability goals." If you like research I invite you to venture down that avenue. Without a doubt you would find it quite illuminating!
@@PropheticCoachTheresa Don't be sorry I'm autistic, even though it causes me difficulties I love being autistic as it gives me great strengths as well by giving me a different way of perceiving the world. It is more than well known, there is overwhelming evidence vaccines have nothing to do with autism and no one believed it had anything to do with vaccines until the '90s. If you would do the research you would know autism traits don't start until between 12-18 months old because it is developmental, such as the variation in the development of the amygdala and hippocampus. Autism is primarily genetic because of the alleles and mutagenesis, humanity can't survive without autistic people. Molecular biologist Miroslav Radman writes, "Mutagenesis has traditionally been viewed as an unavoidable consequence of imperfections in the process of DNA replication and repair. But if diversity is essential to survival, and if mutagenesis is required to generate such diversity, perhaps mutagenesis has been positively selected for throughout evolution." Evelyn Fox Keller of MIT explains: "We now know that mechanisms for enduring genetic stability are a product of evolution. Yet a surprising number of mutations in which at least some of these mechanisms are disabled have been found in bacteria living under natural conditions. Why do these mutants persist? Is it possible that they provide some selective advantage to the population as a whole? Might the persistence of some mutator genes in a population enhance the adaptability of that population? Apparently so. New mathematical models of bacterial populations in variable environments confirm that, under such conditions, selection favors the fixation of some mutator alleles and furthermore, that their presence accelerates the pace of evolution." The mutants behind autism offer some great advantages to the human race, diminishing the genes is a great risk because without those mechanisms there is no asurety of genetic stability pushing us in the direction of extinction.
Hey why aren't you guys posting anymore? These videos are great. Hope to see more soon.
The only people I know who speak the truth about my situation and my family.
Ooh -Fan girl here. I'm so excited to have had the oppurtunity to hear this conversation with these 2 amazing people. Thank you Jen and NJACE for all that you are contributing to help others understand the neurobiology of autism.
Gratitude to Dr. Pagel and all participants. A glorious discovery of a new perspective of the most intriguing Vagus Nerve. A pity that study is not mandatory in the first year of Med School.
Every second of this 2 hours enjoyed immensely! Thank you so much! God bless you and help you with your amazing work! 🌸
I have seen an instantaneous calming and focus response from using a melodic voice with individuals with autism. A sing-song upper register used briefly appears to help bring one back to relationship. It is usually accompanied by eye contact. This is not to be overused but is an interesting phenomenon and helpful.
Dr. Porges acoustic intervention explains why the Kaufmans Son Rise program was so effective, it used parental co-regulation to induce normalization in their son's traumatized nervous system.
Porges and others would benefit from reading Aletha Solter on handling "Tears and Tantrums" (one of Solter's many great books) because, with aware attention, a child -- and any human -- can thoroughly discharge tension, frustration, and pain with their natural body process if it is not interrupted. Her insights about the physiology of feelings and relief dovetail wonderfully with the fabulous insights of Porges and Dana about the three-part nervous system. To soothe or distract crying, upset children delays their finishing and causes suppression rather than resolution of their issue. Solter's books and writing cite research that will be of interest to anyone interested in the physiology of feelings, and her personal experience with parents and children are moving and thrilling. Her books and interactions are life-changing.
Thank you so much for sharing this highly valuable information ❤
My life has been transformed since PolyVagal theory. It nit only helped me understand my clients with a neurological diagnosis- it literally saved my marriage. It helped me go from being an exhausted overwhelmed caregiver to having a reciprocal coregulation relationship.
However, I am certified in HeartMath- their work is centered around heart rAte variation. I don’t believe that heart rate variability has been answered adequately by both speakers.
Variability is more to do with the variability in the pulse to pulse beat within a minute. You can have the same heart rate but different variability- variability is more sensitive than heart rate .
Can the question be asked again please. Thanks
22:17 Thank you what important work!
Watch 1:39:36 . Words spoken in such a way I've wished to say for 40 years. Perfect!
Wonderful session and very insightful. Much appreciated
Thanks Dr. Porges for bringing a paradigm shift in the thinking that a physician and drugs are facilitators. Have you looked into the philosophy of Eastern medicines such as Ayurveda?
Vegetables are heart loving together.
Very enlightening and comprehensive.
Survival itself as reason for agency and healing .nothing else is needed .reminded me about the power of sheer aliveness over all adversity
I have had a theory for over 15 years and this confirms some of my theory true.
I asked myself we're autistic at all times, so why aren't the symptoms with me all the time?
I then came to the possibility that maybe those things have nothing to do with autism at all.
That made me begin looking for a common factor among numerous autistic people. Looking at ABA, whenever autistic people pretend to be someone they're not, stress and anxiety rises. Looking at cognitive dissonance autistic people head in the opposite direction stressing them out. They share their authentic opinions before being taught white lies. They hold on to their own (authentic) values and perspectives.
I could go on, notice all these characteristics are linked to authenticity.
My theory for over 15 years has being that autism is a condition of authenticity that underlyes what have been assumed to be symptoms.
"You gotta challenge all assumptions. If you don’t, what is doctrine on day one becomes dogma forever after."
John Boyd
As children we are all ourselves, we are individuals. As we get older, society expects us to develop and de-individuate, become less individual. Autistic people can not be de-individuated. Therein lies our difference.
I think there is a lot to this! I was only just officially diagnosed at the age of 39 (after a period of burnout that could not be ignored). And, the more I listen to the experiences of others...the more I'm kind of glad I WASN'T diagnosed as a kid!
Because I think my parents stumbled on the right approach without needing a label, which was: carefully explain the social behaviors that are really necessary to avoid offending people, and teach how to identify and think through emotions...but otherwise just kind of let me be me. They didn't press for extra social activity if I clearly wasn't into it, and they encouraged my special interests - and emphasize that if someone is mean to you over small quirks...then they probably aren't a good friend to have anyway! It probably helped that we are a bookish academic family where alternating between quietly entertaining yourself and excitedly telling people the fine details of something you just learned wasn't seen as particularly odd by them or their academic friends.
By contrast, if some doctor had scared them into trying to "fix" me...I suspect I would have had a LOT more melt-downs and shut-downs, and more problems deriving from that, than I actually experienced.
Would have liked to know or even hear the sounds that worked so strongly on the child in the story referred at the beginning of the dialogue.
@ Christine Hoy . Excellent idea ! Yes please !
Type in the search box "music therapy" and you'll be able to see some examples.
@@ninaromm5491
As written above, watch a few music therapy videos.
The focus on intensity of titration of pharmacological intervention not just partly but entirely misses an understanding of not targeted neural regional end points to produce certain overt (ie, caricature) behaviors but of the Intersubjectivity of feedback loops or the "central regulator" as Steve mentions. This is also the paradigmatic shift in our understanding of a "one skull world" to the interindividual or the "Interbrain." The "central regulator" is not intra or inter but intrapsychic-and- interpsychic. It in the betweeness or both side of the dyad that interegulation or co-regulation between autonomic nervous systems occur. Or as the great psychologist Winnocott said with regards to the infant/parent dyad, "Hete one plus one equals one." That is if you will a microscopic window into a greater understanding of how we are mammalian wired to interconnect with each other. Hence, the dispensing with a one brain world into an understanding of Interpersonal Neurobiology. The implications are potentially profound and transformative!
🎯🙏
Interpersonal neurobiology🤩!!!!! Those words are music to my autistic ears...
I need there help. Because I am a recipient of maladaptive treatment and a true misunderstanding of my situation. It has been and continues to be traumatic and debilitating. Isolated and so stuck. I’m not supposed. I am Alone and afraid. Victimized by a punitive approach to conformity. Ripped apart from my family. And prevented from finding a companion. By an aggressive she-mere campaign against me. It’s awful. So please if anyone can help me. It would be great appreciated.
We need to work on the origination of this problem. Then work on removing what’s blocking the part of the brain that’s turning children born perfectly healthy to sometimes vegetables. This was a nice hash out to witness. But I’m not seeing a resolution here.
I appreciate these cutting edge discussions but it still seems what no one will touch with a ten foot pole is what the CAUSE of such dysregulated parasympathetic tone is in the first place? Shouldn't that be the primary area of investigation efforts, especially considering the astronomical rise in its incidence since the early 1980's? In my practice as a manual therapist, we were seeing developmentally typical infants and toddlers collapse completely into these dysregulation patterns with weeks of their two year vaccinations. Now babies are developing these symptoms much earlier as the vaccine assault has deployed vaccines earlier than 2 years, at birth, and in high doses since this symptomology first started appearing. How do these injections cause such pervasive neurological damage? Is it in combination with congenitally or perinatally induced dysbiosis? Or is the autonomic injury more contributory to the dysbiosis? I wish researchers would have the courage and integrity to look at these factors rather than serving the AI/ blockchain managed social impact bond markets and investment firms funding this research.
Shalom Body and Soul Wellness,
First of all, vaccines have no association with autism, so stop talking about injections.
Secondly, autism has existed among the human race since ancient times.
Third, it's not neurological damage, stop it with your neo-Galtonian doctrine.
Autism is primarily genetic, their top theory to the cause of autism is it's a combination of genetic and environmental factors.
I challenge that theory because autism is global so all the environments are different, so either every form of autism has a different cause or autism has no cause.
The very genes associated with autism are inside of you as well.
@@danielmoore4024 Actually I have been working long enough to watch this "epidemic" play out, and no, autism is not "global." Are you a troll, working for the UN Agenda's or just really uninformed? czcams.com/video/W39DhJDYVSs/video.html
@@PropheticCoachTheresa
I've studied autism for over 20 years.
Andrew Wakefield was kicked out of the medical system for spreading vaccines across the EU.
Across in America you believed autism was caused by bad mothers.
I'm autistic, the autism criteria has changed 5 times. It's not possible to go from 1 in every 10,000 to 2% of the world's population in less than 80 years. They broadened the spectrum every time they altered the diagnostic criteria, before 1994 I did not fit the criteria even though I've been autistic my whole life.
Autism is not an epidemic disease, you obviously don't even know what "epidemic" means. An epidemic disease spreads across only 1 region, not the world.
Do your research.
I'm sorry you have that condition, Daniel. Please forgive me if this sounds patronizing, you sound very neurologically functional in your writing. The children I worked with developed neurotypically (that word wasn't invented yet then) until their 2 year vaccines. Then they would experience an overnight neurological crisis that would decimate they and their parents lives. Later, crib death became linked to vaccines as the infection schedule moved to earlier ages with more doses. In communities where vaccines are not imposed on babies autism is rare or not noted, such as Amish communities. It is not prolific in countries where the vaccine schedules, and pharma, is not in control of public policy. Yes there have been people who exhibit non-neurotypical tendencies likely throughout the history of civilization, but I am old enough to have witnessed this phenomenon unfold socially, and then later professionally engaging with it as a medical and alternative healthcare provider, as it exploded from virtually none to the occurrences we see today. There appears to be a gut-brain link to this as well, many positing that glyphosate use in conventional agriculture, along with the perversion of food in manufacturing with preservatives, artifical and so called "natural" flavors, which are engineered to chemically stimulate the taste neurons in the gut, and EMF pollution, which is proven to disrupt microbiome, are likely instigators as well in the phenomenolgical etiology of what's causing this extreme vagal tone dysfunction. And people are effected by these things in many ways, not just presenting with "autistic" labeled symptoms, but also immune issues of all kinds such as so called "autoimmune" disorders, allergies, IBS, etc, anxiety, ADD, and on and on. There appears to be an assault on humanity from many fronts but only a few hands originating its making. Dr. Porges et el are sponsored by directly or indirectly and are professionally aligned with the UN's "sustainability goals." If you like research I invite you to venture down that avenue. Without a doubt you would find it quite illuminating!
@@PropheticCoachTheresa
Don't be sorry I'm autistic, even though it causes me difficulties I love being autistic as it gives me great strengths as well by giving me a different way of perceiving the world.
It is more than well known, there is overwhelming evidence vaccines have nothing to do with autism and no one believed it had anything to do with vaccines until the '90s.
If you would do the research you would know autism traits don't start until between 12-18 months old because it is developmental, such as the variation in the development of the amygdala and hippocampus.
Autism is primarily genetic because of the alleles and mutagenesis, humanity can't survive without autistic people.
Molecular biologist Miroslav Radman writes, "Mutagenesis has traditionally been viewed as an unavoidable consequence of imperfections in the process of DNA replication and repair. But if diversity is essential to survival, and if mutagenesis is required to generate such diversity, perhaps mutagenesis has been positively selected for throughout evolution."
Evelyn Fox Keller of MIT explains:
"We now know that mechanisms for enduring genetic stability are a product of evolution. Yet a surprising number of mutations in which at least some of these mechanisms are disabled have been found in bacteria living under natural conditions. Why do these mutants persist? Is it possible that they provide some selective advantage to the population as a whole? Might the persistence of some mutator genes in a population enhance the adaptability of that population? Apparently so. New mathematical models of bacterial populations in variable environments confirm that, under such conditions, selection favors the fixation of some mutator alleles and furthermore, that their presence accelerates the pace of evolution."
The mutants behind autism offer some great advantages to the human race, diminishing the genes is a great risk because without those mechanisms there is no asurety of genetic stability pushing us in the direction of extinction.