What is a Sword Bayonet?
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- čas přidán 14. 02. 2021
- A weapon intended for two very different purposes, and also one that is very important to the history of British Military Swordsmanship. Here we show an original example of the most famous sword bayonet and look at the reason this weapon was developed and how successful it was.
"Switching to your sword bayonet is faster than reloading." - Captain Price.
Based
A short sword, yes, unless you're late 19th Century French and then it might be a full sized sabre.
This is perhaps the least clickbait video of all time. Not wasting any time. First 30 seconds you’ve got your answer. The rest is for enthusiasts. I want you to know the world would be a better place if people followed your example.
Sharpes rifle's INTENSIFIES
Chassepot intensifies
Two interesting bayonets I have are the British 1871p saw back sword bayonet, one fits a Snider Enfield, the other a Martini Henry. Both are Solingen made and appear in unissued condition.
The Baker rifle sword bayonet was replaced around 1816 with a more conventional bayonet and ... with the 1816 pattern rifleman's saw-back sword. This sword was more of a large fascine knife. It was not in use long though.
I'd be surprised if the Baker sword bayonet was intended as a Fascine knife, it doesn't have a lot of mass for that kind of role, and I haven't seen any contempiorary evidence to suggest it was. I own the contemporary foot artillery sword which very much is and they are a world apart. It's true that the Baker sword bayonet wasn't in use for a huge period, but for most people it's service throughout basically the whole Napoleonic period makes it hugely significant, as any equipment is that serves through prolongued wars.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencingYou are right, and I wasn't referring to the Baker sword bayonet. That lovely weapon was totally what you said it was. Its sword function, however, was taken over by the 1816 Pattern saw-back short sword, probably shortly after 1816. Now, that can be compared with a fascine knife, albeit a long one (22" blade, 27" overall, 1.1kg). This short sword was only in use for a brief time. It was later re-introduced for the pioneers as the 1856 Pattern pioneers saw-back short sword, very slightly changed. These two short swords are probably worth a video on their own. ;-)
I thought they also had a triangular blade version in 1823.
They did. The Baker rifle sword was replaced with the triangular bayonet.@@patstrzeszewski3240
Nice to know which weapon I would have been issued in the British Army, cause I would have been a rifleman for sure. I suppose some of the shortcomings are due to the fact that it had to serve as a one-handed weapon and as a blade for a two-handed weapon, in the latter case having to stand to much greater stress. They could have built a smallsword bayonet, with a triangular blade, but then it wouldn't cut at all.
It would be a "rapier bayonet"
One thing that has to be kept in mind is that while a bayonet is of debatable value to most troops ( sword or otherwise ) and mostly used for intimidation more then actual killing . A large single edged knife like object is of great value for clearing brush or cutting wood or searching stacks or controlling a crowd and no you dont get to carry all kinds of tools with you ! Clearing brush is something you may be doing on a daily basis where as you might only fight in one or to battles in your entire military career. Keep in mind many troops are employed in artillery' , engineering , logistics , guard , occupation /policing or simply deployed to an area the enemy dos not chose to attack but still must be able to carry out the duties assigned to them no matter how unglamorous including surviving to the point you can be in a battle .
Therefore, the Baker rifle sword bayonet was replaced by the 1816 pattern saw-back short sword. At that time, most European infantry, as well as artillerymen and pioneers, had also a fascine knife.
@@sergelecluse0001 I think the fascine knifes and axes and shovel's were in the baggage train , but you typically had your bayonet on your person
@@woltews I can't be sure for all the armies, but the Prussian Model 1864 fascine knife was issued individually to the infantry, as was the French 1855 model gladius to the artillery.
Honestly I can see it's shortfalls as a bayonet; especially weight as solid brass hilts can be heavy.
But as a sword I think it harms less issues. It's essentially like many infantry hangers or the French briquette (sp?).
It lacks those swords curvature and is at a reach disadvantage to sabers, but for a short sword it seems no worse than contemporary short swords. I'd even say it's a better sword than the "cabbage cutter".
That is very much the conclusion I came too. There isn't much difference at all between the baker sword bayonet and a briquet.
Thanks for the video, it was a real fun look at the weapon :)
Thank you for sharing these videos - really well thought out and engaging! Do you have an ISBN for British Sword Fighting by D.A. Kinsley? I'm trying to find it here in Australia without much luck
odd to think that pikes were still being used as a main weapon as late as the Battle of Vinegar Hill in Wexford in 1798 -
I heard the prussians in 1810 made a "hirschfanger" or hanger sword bayonet for their jagers
the British Riflemen where possible inspired by German Rifleman, in German these Troops were named Jäger, most prominent example are the Hessians. These Jäger had always kept there traditional sidearm, the Hirschfänger a militarized version of a light hunting sword. Possible the Britsh adapted these Hirschfänger into a Bayonet version.
During seven years war, a prussian Jäger unit came in trouble, so the, in comparison to a musket, short rifles got a long Hirschfänger useable as bayonnet, Before that , Jäger used their private civilian Hirschfänger.
This was mostly for Carbines, and short barreled rifles like the SMiLE. If you have a shorter gun, then it helps to have a longer bayonet. Also, Carbines were popular for Cavalry, who also liked Sabers. So, they got saber, and yataghan bayonets.
Not in France. The French cavalry and mounted gendarmes had a carbine where no bayonet could be mounted. The artillery featured this carbine but with a bayonet clip.
@@sergelecluse0001 In general. Not to say that every military that ever had carbines issued sword bayonet for every carbine. Only that they were more often issued for carbines and cavalry than full length rifles, and muskets, because of the Balance problem.
One thing you don't mention is how well a sword bayonet could be used as a glaive (a cutting-focussed pole weapon) when fixed to a rifle/musket. I would like to see you do some test cuts with that sword bayonet, or even something like an SMLE rifle's sword bayonet.
The interesting thing about this topic is there is no evidence to suggest it was done when they had proper sword bayonets (as in one that is genuinely a sword, the SMLE "sword bayonet" is called that, but it isn't a sword, it's a large dagger). This may well have been due to the overall size of the weapon. This is one of the fundamental differences between how bayonet was taught in the time of muzzle loaders vs how it was in say WW2 and beyond. The earlier style taught the use of the musket entirely as a two handed spear, whereas modern styles use a close range aggressive striker style. It doesn't mean nobody ever did it of course, but it doesn't seem to have ever caught on until the weapons were smaller.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing I find it odd that no one back then codified the use of fixed sword bayonets (or at the very least, longer knife bayonets like the SMLE bayonet) as chopping weapons. I'd still like to see you guys perform some test cuts with a fixed SMLE bayonet to see how well it can cut when used as the bladed portion of a glaive (real glaves didn't have blades that much longer than an SMLE bayonet anyway). If there were modern bayonets the length of an SMLE or somewhat longer, it would be very interesting to see how much better (if at all) they'd do using modern techniques, since it's likely they'd chop and slash better than most knife bayonets can.
I'd also like to hear your opinion on someone who'd like to see a modern sword issued for armed forces at the link below. Is this fellow onto something, or is he off his rocker?
gonkafied.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-sword-as-weapon-in-modern-combat.html
@@topguntin People have been successfully using cutting-focussed polearms for centuries against thrusting-type polearms, so I wouldn't quite write off the need to bring the rifle far off line as a major disadvantage just yet. Maybe it's just a matter of fighting techniques and skill that got lost with the mass transition to firearms.
I'd personally like to see how well a bayonet the length of an SMLE sword bayonet would do in cutting offense against test cutting targets myself when fixed to something like an M16-length rifle or an M4-length carbine.
@@topguntin Oh, I would still like to see how well an SMLE with its sword bayonet mounted could cut. I found a video showing how well it cut up a pumpkin when mounted. The link is below:
czcams.com/video/AXcU2lbqhWk/video.html
what is your impression of how the baker rifle sword bayonet handles as a sword? is it a bit unweildy? does it seem like it could deliver a decent cut? a thrust? of course it being shorter gives it a disadvantage, but maybe comparing it to cutlasses? in terms of use?
Is there any information on the Whitworth 1963 being used in trials. Obviously the actual rifle wasn’t chosen, but would the sword bayonets have ever seen active service?
I think about 9000 were produced.
Many thanks
We Australians still had sword-bayonets on our November Mk III SMLE rifles in Korea.
And it was what many Light Horsemen had in their hand during the last great, successful Cavalry charge in History.
Beersheba in 1917.
I didn't know about the Austrailian service in Korea as they were long replaced in British service then, that is very interesting. Beersheba is mentioned in this video though.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Well we never used the No 4 series of .303 rifles, so I guess they didn't want to fix what wasn't broken.
That's understandable the no.3's were great. But its always been the British way to move the old weapons on, and of course the Sten MkV which was more widely adopted post WW2 used the same bayonet fitment as the No.4, so that standardusation made sense. I'll have to find ways to discuss these in future as I have a no.4 and Sten MkV myself.
We're do I get a sword bayonet? I have been looking for 1 like the one your holding for sparing.
Not short in all cases, Napoleón the 3rd outfitted his 100 man guards with meter long sword/bayonets..
There are always exceptions to the rule! The French even experimented later with what is essentially a cuirassier type sword on a musket (the Arcelin Mousqueton). The London and Westminster Vo;lunteer bayonet is actually very large with a 30" blade, though nothing like that ever saw use with regular British troops, where the sword bayonet was always a short sword.
What cutting while mounted on the rifle a thing? If so, I'd assume light harrying cuts rather than larger poleaxe cuts if at all.
Around this period there is no mention or suggestion of it no. If you skip forward a good way to the bayonet manuals of the early to mid 20th century you will find cuts and they were delivered as full power cuts. The problem with using cuts with earlier muskets and rifles is the sheer size of them, there are quite unwieldy. It certainly could theroetrically do it though.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Agreed. Late 20th Century US Army minimal training included an off center guard (point to high left) that apparently was designed to allow an opening that any attack into was responded to with a cut, then thrust over the top, then butt stroke. The Vietnam vet training us noted that if you had rounds left, a burst following the thrust usually did the trick...
weapons similar to the pike were still in use up until the American independence war.
And beyond, but in very limited use, the spontoon lasted on unto the early 19th century for some specialist uses like Sergeants and those protecting colours (and eagles in the French case), but what we are talking about here is as a common soldiers weapon. As a common soldiers weapon it was relegated to militia use quite quickly in the 18th century. Though the naval boarding pikes did live on and occasionally got used on land.
In Germany short pikes had been used up to Napoleonic wars. For equip all new formed Landwehr units, not enough muskets had been in Prussia, so some units started 1813/ 1814 with more pikes and axes than muskets. In Württemberg in 1813 some regiments ,Landregimenter/ Landsturm ' had been formed of mostly elder men. The Regiments had only half the size and had only a short pike (2m) and an armbind as equipment. Those Regiments had not been intended for battle, only patrolling and guarding inside of Württemberg.
Bayonet stuck in the target.. i guess that is why the french alway kept using a spike style bayonet. You know the lebel bayonet.
You could just answer the question of whether it's awesome as a sword or not. How would you do fencing with it or w/e? ask a swordsman if they would be good with it. Was that account of the sergeant referring to the only black officer of that war? The one Othello is based on? What was his name? Thomas-Alexandre Dumas
Am I right in believing the story I heard a while ago about some sword bayonets being so hefty that they ended up bending gun barrels downwards? And what do you think the chances of a Black Fencer sword bayonet coming out at some point might be? That would be pretty fun.
There is no doubt some sword bayonets were very heavy and unwieldy when fixed, but I've never heard of them bending barrels, that doesn't seem very likely considering the stretch of barrels and furniture. BF might be convinced to do it.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing I think this is a misunderstanding. The weight can "Bend" the barrel out of battery, so the front site is lower, and the shots could fall short. However, barrels tend to be made out of well tempered steel, which springs back. I haven't heard of any case of a barrel being bent permanently just from the weight of the bayonet. However, a good bayonet mount is reinforced to the fore-grip, instead of just the barrel itself. They could bend, or damage the barrel stabbing them into someone, and pulling it out. That can happen with a regular bayonet, if it's not well supported.
Any weight mounted on the end of the barrel may change the point of impact of the bullet, but it wasn't a permanent change; remove the weight, and the point of impact reverts. That's why the SMLE (for example) doesn't have the bayonet mounted directly on the barrel. With non-rifled muskets, the shift was inconsequential; with the increased accuracy and effective range of rifles, the infantryman had to learn to compensate.
@@siestatime4638 Right, exactly what I was saying. Only it didn't "Bend the barrels." As if the military issued Bayonets that were so heavy, they left carbines with bent barrels.
Good video but i would like to have seen the sword bayonet attached to a Baker's rifle.
So I have a Waterloo 2015 story as to why sword bayonets are not preferable to the regular kind. A 95 rifle re-enactor was mock engaging a cuirassier. The cuirassier hit the sword bayonet with his saber in such a way it popped off and hit the re-enactor standing beside him point first in his cheek. Owwww!!ch!! Nasty!
a problem with large bayonets is that they can bend the barrow of the gun over long periods of time due to their weight.
?? I have large time believing that a heavy piece of metal clamped to wood designed to withstand the stress of explosion would get bent by just the weight of a bayonet. They were hiever than a socket bayonet and knife bayonet but not that heavy.
The bending of the barrel was an issue only during bayonet combat, and it happened occasionally. However, it is recorded that the French Chassepot bayonet, mounted on the right side of the barrel, quote: "-seriously affects the balance of the weapon and thwarts the vibrations of the barrel. At 500 meters there is a diversion of 1 meter down and to the left.-" end quote. You can argue that if the enemy was close enough for bayonet fighting, the issue was moot.
@@sergelecluse0001 I can imagine after firing it quick succession then trying to use the rifle like a glaive because of the short that it would bend but not from ust the wieght alone
@@PJDAltamirus0425 As many others of that period, the French Chassepot bayonet features a sturdy hook designed to break the blade of an enemy bayonet in combat. This action did put a lot of stress on the barrel, as did the long blade when it got stuck in something or someone and lateral pressure was exerted. It was known to bend the barrel sometimes. The barrel did not bend from the weight of a bayonet; it was designed for it.
@@sergelecluse0001 ..... I don't think person can apply enough force to snap a shortish steel blade, hook or no. I've owned a WWI bayonet, they are really stiff. I imagine the hook would me usefully for trapping and moving another blade aside and yeah, over penetrating and doing a hastily extration from thick clothing, flesh and bone would put allot of stress.
wouldn't this be more effective with something like a smallsword blade? a little longer, lighter, stiffer, cheaper. sure you can't cut but i don't see that blade cutting through the heavy coats of the time anyway.
I wanna put a sword bayonet on an AK. Sounds stupid but also fun
the bayonet on the SMG my countries army had. was almost as long as the smg it was placed on. before your fantacy carries you away. it was a bit less then 22 inch long, with the stock folded. so the bayonet might have had a total lenght of 20 inch. it would be kind of stupid fun to have a full size battle rifle with a sword bayonet allmost as long as the rifle.
@@exploatores yeah, probably not practical but definitely fun
@@austintillman8297 totaly unpractical, I am thinking of a H&K G3 with 40 inch long swordbayonet.
@@exploatores ooh that sounds even more awesome/terrible. I’d like to buy a g3 variant some day but guns are an expensive hobby lol
Baynut