The Sonic fandom HATES this man. Does he deserve it?
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2024
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How did an advertisement for a Japanese video game turn into one of the biggest, most controversial American comics of all time?
Read some Sonic:
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OR
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IDW Paperback Vol 3 - amzn.to/4aR54hF
(continues to volume 16)
Preorder Ken Penders’ The Lara-Su Chronicles: Beginnings
kenpenders.com/product/now-ta...
Read Karl Bollers work:
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Ian Flynn
Website: www.BumbleKing.com
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Ken Penders
/ kenpenders
Full Corrections, Sources & Notes:
pastebin.com/wTkUKA3X
Credits:
Edit and Animation: Rádi
Photo of Paul Castiglia by Luigi Novi
Special Thanks: Comic Drake, Ayaku Web, my brother Jake
Everything else: matttt - Zábava
Shortly after I posted the video, Ken Penders contacted me his thoughts on it. With his permission, I'm posting them below verbatim:
Matt,
I appreciate the video.
If I do take issue with anything, is that you make it sound like I’ve been bitter the whole time since I left the book or that Karl and I have been mad with each other all this time. Did Karl & I have differences during the run of M25YL? Absolutely. I also don’t recall banning him from my message board. If he made that claim, I take responsibility as I had a Web Administrator who monitored my message board. From my perspective, Karl and I cleared the air between us during a meeting in NYC when my legal battle was going on and I asked if he would be willing to submit an affidavit, which he did. We’ve encountered each other over the years since at conventions and I recall each encounter as a pleasant experience. Karl & shared similar experiences while at Archie and I’d liken that to the experiences I shared with guys I served with while in the military.
What I disliked most of all is how you ended things, with Ian continuing on SONIC, and Karl on continuing to work on comics for major publishers while I just released THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES as an afterthought. What you failed to mention - and that I’ve been very public with - is that the book contains every MOBIUS: 25 YEARS LATER chapter that was originally published in SONIC issues 131 thru 144, establishing my right to reprint the works I had a hand in creating. (As for the other creators, my business dealings with them are private and will remain so.) Your comment that I didn’t have the right to reprint my stories ignores several facets of the copyright battle despite the legal assistance you had.
Beyond Ian, I also helped launch the career of artist Dawn Best and encouraged other fans beyond Ian, including Jonathan Gray, who also posted on my website and I invited to share my table space in Artist Alley during one Comic-Con back in the early aughts.
One omission that bothered me was not mentioning how I was the only creator who had a hand in every aspect of the book beyond just the writing. Neither Karl or Ian ever illustrated a story for any SONIC comic. The biggest difference between my scripts and Ian & Karl’s was that every script I created prior to ENDGAME also included unpaid, uncredited layouts which the artists used as the basis of their work. The final pencils resembled my layouts to such a degree that the US Copyright Office considered me a legal co-creator of the art as well as the story when they compared samples of my layouts to the finished pencils. Also, not only did Archie not respond to the US Copyright Office over my claims, but neither did SEGA, who received the same letter the US Copyright Office sent out to Archie. Had their lawyers challenged my claim, that would’ve made my battle easier as they would also have to prove a transfer of ownership of which they had no documents to cover.
Copyrights are still the Wild West, and when it comes to comics, especially so. The main problem is that companies settle. Work-for-hire is not the hill they wish to die on. Not even Disney. When Ruth Bader Ginsburg decided to hear the Marvel v Kirby case, that’s when Disney folded. They did not want to open Pandora’s box despite their army of lawyers. Same with Warner Bros when it came to the Seigel / Superman case. They ended up spending $30 million dollars only to end up with the resolution DC Comics originally negotiated with the Seigel estate. To date, no one has ever asked why SEGA didn’t go after Archie for the loss of an asset that took 25 years to create. While you did a great job of research throughout, I was amazed you missed the court transcript posted on the BleedingCool.com website which revealed the real reason why SEGA eventually took SONIC away from Archie. During the legal battle, Archie was on the hook to pay for all of SEGA’s legal costs. When it came time to renew the license in 2017, Archie looked at the revenue they were getting from Warner Bros and Netflix for RIVERDALE and SABRINA and decided SONIC wasn’t worth indemnifying SEGA from any and all future legal costs.
Since the legal battle, I’ve been more concerned over my personal life and relationships. My better half, Bernadette, who went through the legal battle with me, hated the thought of me doing work-for-hire, which I was in complete agreement with. We’ve seen 3 children grow up and graduate from college. 2 own their own homes with Steve married and the father of 3 beautiful children of his own. My work in advertising is mentioned in the book COMICS MAD MEN, in which I was a designer for the Motorola Razor ad campaign.
I’m also sought out for commissions from SONIC fans the world over. THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES: BEGINNINGS was able to go forward to print and eventual release because of Sonic fans pre-ordering the book. As I write this, the cargo ship carrying the copies of my book is scheduled to dock at the Port of Los Angeles with eventual arrival at the warehouse they will be stored at on June 15. Copies are tentatively scheduled to begin shipping to those who pre-ordered starting June 17, going to readers in almost all 50 states as well as 7 countries on 3 continents. (I’ve just been asked to add Ireland to the list of countries I ship to.)
Since the legal battle, I’ve also been overseeing a film I directed through post-production. It would've already been released but technology has improved to the point where I’m now upresing the film for 4K monitors.
Do I take pride in what I do? Guilty as charged. But if one doesn’t ring one’s bell, will anyone notice?
I actually liked your Penders & Flynn comment. However, after my experience making a film, it’s only reinforced my attitude to work on projects where I make the decisions.
You have to understand I’ve come to accept my association with Sonic is lifelong and beyond my control. When I stopped submitting stories to Archie, I was still working with SEGA on a potential Sonic film. Not just with SOA, but also with SOJ. I have the documentation to show for those efforts. I broke bread with SOJ executives when we met in Hollywood long before Ian dealt with them. (I even sold original art to Sonic Team members at a Comic-Con, including the original art to the cover of SONIC issue 98 - the SONIC ADVENTURE 2 adaptation - which I also inked.)
When the film project died on the vine, it was due to SEGA corporate upheaval. Even though Robert Leffler had passed, SOA President Rob Lightner was still willing to go forward until other executives decided getting into bed with Marvel was more important at the time. There could've been a KNUCKLES film based on my comics from Dreamworks back in the early 2000s but SEGA killed that baby before it could even leave the womb.
It comes down to a lifetime of experiences as a result of my connection to Sonic which I never anticipated when I wrote those early stories. That's something that has yet to be properly conveyed. Maybe someday.
I think you should pin this.
Yup, that sounds like Penders.
Hey matttt could you maybe do a video on Alan Moore? Love his works on watchmen and killing joke, and he seems like an interesting guy to learn about with your awesome videos
What did I just read… My brain is completely fried
Two words for this guy: de-caf.
I don't know why, but god has just decided that the Sonic franchise needs to be this cosmically misaligned divine comedy. It never ends.
Chris Chan as the fallen angel
So who is Dante? Ken Penders? hahaa
I blame Sega
The lore slowed down after 2020 thankfully
@@LongcrierInProgress tamers12345
This whole saga becomes a lot funnier if you imagine “Archie” is not a company but Archie Andrews himself personally fighting against these writers.
I used to draw comics in school like that, like Game Sonic versus Archie Sonic, Archie Sonic would serve Archie like if he was Palpatine, I even gave Archie a cloak like Palpatine, Amy versus Sally, all that good stuff, I was a silly kid :P
"Its awful Jughead! First Betty catches me calling Veronica while on our date, and now that Penders guy I hired is claiming I committed Fraud!"
"Sega".
& his Lawyer is Jughead.
I can picture the Kids from Riverdale as Comic Executives.
It's funny that the lore behind making the Sonic comics is almost as complex as the Sonic lore they created.
No joke. The Archie comics are unhinged with backstory.
The real sonic lore is the lives of the people who get paid to work on it. Your either getting fired and rehired three times, arrested for insider trading, or having the entire world send you hate mail
I honestly don’t find them anywhere near comparable.
Nobody is gonna mention the sub-culture of Sonic on DeviantArt?
Yep.
Sonic aside, you took the time to Interview the relevant parties. You didn't make a lolcow out of a strange guy with strong passions. You deserve so much respect for that alone.
Well to be fair it isn't hard to make a lolcow out of ken.
@@leviticusprime4904that's why it is impressive that matttt didn't do that
People not make ken a lolcow for having strqnge assions, they make a lolcow out of him for his overall attitude and incidents, this doc while revealing new info also ommits many.
People make a lolcow out of him for thinking that he can slap a copyright on Echidnas, the species that he didn't even fucking create.
Nobody would make a lolcow out of Ken Penders, if was just him having strange passions. The reason Ken is seen as lolcow is due his attitude and unwarranted big ego he has like claiming he invented the echidnas or some concepts alongside wanting to sue people.
Not sure why it can't be both; Penders is greedy and Archie is a corporate bully.
I agree with this, situation was a clusterfuck but nothing good came out of it
Honestly it just makes me sad that out of all things in comic books, THIS is the case where the "creator" wins
Oh also let's not forget, in a children's comic, he wanted the main character's girlfriend to lose her virginity, and it wasn't even to her boyfriend
I mean, it's the Sonic comic book universe, it's like a neodymium magnet for deeply weird individuals. I wouldn't say Ken was being greedy, exactly - creators deserve to get paid for their work, and I'm not terribly surprised to learn Archie comics was a little slipshod with their management back in the day - they were about the cheapest operation going in an already notoriously cheap industry. But he does come across as a dude with some issues that would be better worked out somewhere other than the pages of a kids' comic book.
this entire thing is a lesser of two evils debate
"Archie is a corporate bully," so...? Isn't that literally saying Sega is lazy and takes advantage of its fans? Why put effort and less effort can still sell because it's Sonic
Reminder that the Knuckles TV show had a whole acid crack flashback segment about Knuckles' backstory and they made his dad look like Ken Penders.
That wasn’t his dad. That was Pachacamac, the leader of an ancient tribe from Sonic Adventure. In the show, they never called him Knuckles’ dad.
@@thefvguy5648 Was referring to this: czcams.com/video/N6RJhdfRb8Y/video.htmlsi=4BLGTYldPLH9kh3p
He's talking about the puppet.
@@C.S24 oh
😮😮😮
When an 11 view, 1 minute old, 46 minute documentary about the Sonic the Hedgehog comic book hits your front page, you know you got a banger
I swear this channel just spawned outta no where and started producing high quality videos
yeah, why am I here? 😭
edit: OMG ITS THE COMICS VIDEO ESSAY GUY
@@johntheanimator4317 that's how every channel feels to anyone that hasn't heard of it and watches it for the first time, growth-wise/alorithm-wise, yes he blew up relatively fast, but this has happened 13325241 times before, it's literally how successful channels are born.
@@Myhaay I've been watching his videos for some time now! but I'm impressed that even their older videos are high quality product!
@@johntheanimator4317 yeah, i wouldn't be surprised to find out he had an earlier channel or worked in something similar, his production quality has been high since day 1.
"Archie comics who were known for comics such as Archie"
hmm yes the floor here is made of floor
“Floor is made of floor?” You’re definitely not a contractor. If you are, please refund all your clients and maybe, become a lawyer. 😂😂😂
“Floor here is made of floor”? Ayo! Get a load of this guy!
The ground vs floor argument continues…
I mean yes, but also no. One is the company name and the other is one product of many.
My floor is made of concrete slab. Which is then covered with plastic and finally Pergo.
Your comment is like "My drink is made of drink".
The flynn reveal made me shit myself
Fr and his new Sonic IDW ones are good decent with one shots though
Same here. I read those with my kid. We've collected them for years
Same I just assume Ian Flynn was a different guy
THE GOAT ARRIVES
Gotta pity poor Karl Bollers. Has to share the book with Ken, gets forced at gunpoint by Sega to ram modern Sonic lore somehow into Archie's Pseudo-SatAM universe, and then gets fired over a fricken slap!
Actually he didn't write the slap that was put in last minute by an artist that was on the way out, Karl openly stayed that he had no idea about the slap until it was too late.
@@doujinloverXD Yeah a sonamy artist did it I heard. The shipping wars were crazy back then. Don't they know the only canon sonic ship is that sonic bangs every girl he meets?
Just think, if this series had been canceled after issue 50, Ken Penders would’ve gone down as a legendary comic book creator, and wonderfully devoted father, nothing more.
You either die a hero, or live long enough to become a villain
This story is pretty clear to me.
Penders had a vendetta
Fellow creators have an interest in supporting creator rights
Archie had a terrible legal team
NO BIG COMPANY WANTS ENTER A LAWSUIT THAT THEY MAY REASONABLE LOSE TO A TECHNICALITY because it sets a precedent. Look at all the CZcams copyright controversies. These companies never let it go to court because they may lose control. It was clearly a business decision for Archie to admit they messed up and wipe their hands clean.
Sega likely saw their incompetence and pulled the license.
Ken Penders may be a great father (and I respect that about him) as well as someone who put their soul into their work, but he is still an egotistical weirdo who had a bone to pick and claimed characters like "anti-sonic" of the concept of Knuckles having a father as his own.
You cannot own ideas/concepts under copyright. Only specific characters and works. The anti-sonic one is really funny because it's him claiming ownership of a god damn variant of a copyrighted character.
Penders only had a case because of Archie's incompetence. He's not a sympathetic hero in their story. He's a guy who gets a little too emotionally involved and possessive.
It’s something when I side with the publisher over a creator like Ken because after everything he pulled, he should have gotten his ass kick in court just to knock him down a peg and for screwing over Ben Hurst the way he did.
The fact Izuka took part in Flynn's interview to be the IDW writer tells me that Sega/Sonic Team likely pulled the license to have more control over the comic and prevent another Penders situation.😅
@@animegamingnerdunderstandable on their part tbh, even if the IDW continuity has suffered somewhat because of it
"claiming ownership of a god damn variant of a copyrighted character."
That's perfectly legal. Like MCU Iron Man is a separate copyright to 616 Iron Man.
@@MakeVarahHappennot comparable, because MCU iron man is owned and copyrighted by the same company as the 616.
Penders would be way more sympathetic if he hadn't screwed over SatAM writer Ben Hurst out of a Hollywood Sonic movie pitch before the lawsuit.
Ironically, that probably came back to bite him, considering this may have indirectly contributed to the finalized Sonic movie having Ian Flynn contributions.
That alone is enough to make hate his ass. Such a snakey way he went about it and the fact he of all comic creators that has fought for their characters got one over Archie; it’s the cruelest joke if you’re a creator who got screwed out of your character rights that’s making millions.
Absolutely. I’d argue that while it’s somewhat laudable that Matt kept the video topic JUST about the comics side of things, the fact is Ken had basically tried to claim HIS version of a comic adaptation of BEN’s show (albeit, using Sonic characters) is more important than Ben’s own vision. Ken may have created the entire Echidna cinimatic universe, but based on the concept work at the time, Sonic:Armageddon was mainly focused on the main series and was billing itself as a conclusion of SATAM.
All of that is to say, the Sonic Chronicles fiasco and Archie’s incompetence mixed with Ken’s obstinacy was the nail in Archie Sonic’s coffin, but the Penders hatetrain had long ago left the station by that point
Look... guys... by the time Sonic movie was being pitched, Sonic Adventure was ALREADY dropped. It would never work. It doesnt matter who would be making that movie. In no way SEGA wouldve taken anyone up on the movie based on SatAM of all things while SEGA of Japan was bringing Sonic to a completely different dimension and world while casting their own, wholly japanese (with the SOLE exception of the name "Ivo Robotnik") lore into the stone of their new direction.
@@KOTEBANAROT I don't even particularly care for SatAM itself. Whether or not there'd actually be a Hollywood movie based on SatAM is not the point at all. The point is that Ken Penders threw Ben Hurst - more qualified to write a story properly in the SatAM tone, and who by all accounts of anyone who knows him was a decent guy - under the bus and got him blacklisted from Hollywood based entirely on lies, all so he could get the shot at a movie pitch he was less qualified to make, thus decreasing the chances of a Sonic movie happening at all, because he'd rather there be no Sonic movie at all than one without his direct writing credit.
The fact that his own SatAM-based movie pitch was awful, and his effort indirectly contributed to his present-day arch-nemesis getting exactly what Penders wanted, was just icing on the cake.
@@KOTEBANAROTEven if it wouldn’t of worked, that doesn’t really excuse what he did
Also, Ian Flynn's work on the Archie Mega Man comic was excellent, tragically cut short from cancellation.
People are still talking shit about it, but on my side I loved it. I mean, they could've brought a chance to make an IDW ver. of it. It's so sad and disappointing it cancelled out when there was a lot of possibilities to the series.
Huh honestly it's a shame the book got cut short considering they were already setting up the events of MegaMan 4, what a waste
Honestly mattt is one of my favourite comic book CZcamsrs
He tells compelling human interest stories with comics as a pretext. I am a big fan too.
Same he’s going to get really big I bet
Same. He's great at what he does.
Same, just started watching his channel and I binged watch every video he has
Same, I think the same.
I’m… in the middle. I side with Ken Penders on the creators rights issue, but I don’t see his work as this incredibly original saga either. He’s not a hack or a hero, he’s just a decent enough writer who did get egotistical towards the end.
Im with you on that.
I think the biggest issue with Ken Penders is his ego and vitriol towards Ian Flynn, but he was justified because he definitely inspired the dark brotherhood and didn’t get credit. It’s honestly surprising to me that so many people refuse to give him credit for the ideas because of his later ideas. Both ideas can be true - he was screwed over and an egomaniac.
@rosalinabloom2567 Penders acts like he invented the idea of the Echidnas having a society with impressive technology and that is not the case since Sonic 3 & Knuckles already established the Echidnas as advanced for their time.
That's the thing, I feel like I'd be completely on his side if it weren't for his personality and "original work". Him claiming ownership over things he had no hand in (He made Anti-Sonic sure but he didn't make him into Scourge) and this is even the case with the Dark Legion and the Nocturnus Clan. There's no doubt that they were inspired but after playing and reading the stories it could not be any more different. The Dark Legion is very clearly based off of old Superman comics (Echidnas were apparently going to be revealed as aliens, The Phantom Zone and the Twilight Cage as well as the naming scheme of the female echidnas) meanwhile Chronicles Nocturnus were handled by experienced writers that made a completely different scenario with Argus.
The Archie Offices suffered a flood where the original work for hire contract could have been potentially damaged or destroyed, depending on who you ask. The rest of what i'm about to say is all rumor and speculation: take it as such. The Dan DiCarlo thing made the vast majority of the comic professionals in the industry mad. Ken Penders had a potentially good case, and having multiple other creators stand behind him made his position look much stronger legally. It is a rumor that these other creators stood behind Penders simply because they wanted to make Archie comics bleed in retribution; not because Penders actually never signed a work for hire contract.
@@rosalinabloom2567 Flynn is a Something Awful Alumni.
“Where’s my contract?”
“We can’t find it.”
*Files copyright*
“Well would you look at that. Here it is.”
Seems extremely sus to me.
Ian shows what companies and fans relations should be
Ian Flynn is like the best example of the whole Running the Asylum trope.
@@BigK13372 yep
the fact that Ken penders was seeking a 7 figure sum for the lawsuit tells me those licencing talks broke down because he asked too much.
Reminder, he wasn't seeking payment for the use of knuckles or sonic or amy, etc, he was seeking payment for them to use things like "an ancient echidnia society" and "knuckle's dad" etc.
I'm not gonna say his stuff wasn't entertaining, but Ken has a history of VASTLY overvaluing his original creations and getting very petty about people talking critically about his work.
In my opinion, Archie was probably the typical greedy corporation, but Ken was also a petulant child who threw tantrums when he didn't get free reign to write his stories using an IP that he ultimately didn't own.
If there was ever an Echidna that showed up that wasn't Knuckles, Penders would start threatening to sue. The opening of the Sonic movie in fact was only the latest example of this. When SEGA took a more firm hand in the license with IDW, they saw removing anything even tangentially related to Penders as a godsend.
@BenCarverGraphics yeah he's begun to believe he invented the idea of the entire echidna race, despite the ones in the sonic movie being more akin to those in Sonic Adventure.
Also thinking he owns the idea of scourge is pretty silly when good/evil mirror universes were a thing in pop culture ever since star trek had its mirror universe episodes
@@Roboshi2007 But Penders did truly come up with the idea of Scourge being a serial rapist.
@@BenCarverGraphics maybe that's what the "zoot Chute" was all about
I disagree, he gave them a large number because he believed they wanted to keep using the characters, and was confident in his case. Remember, he's sueing for royalties. He and his legal team must have believed they could make more than 5 figures, over time, from the royalties.
Also, rule 1 of negotiating; ask for more than you expect to get and meet in the middle. Either Archie or Penders just didn't wanna meet in the middle, and Archie decided they'd rather pull everything than give him royalties.
I’m new to this whole saga, and had never heard about Pender before, but to me it seems like this is a case of a guy going from wanting to make a comic for his kids out of a desire to be a better father to straight up using the comic as a form of therapy to resolve his own issues. Which in one way is like-that’s part of what art is for! But in another is very frustrating because of the incongruity of engaging with that kind of content in the context of a sonic comic for kids. Not that kids can’t handle the subject matter necessarily, but it feels like over time it was being made for him, rather than for them if that makes sense. Thanks for this content Matttt!
It also didn't help that Sonic was Penders only success. He had numerous failed comic and show pitches before and after the comic. So he latched onto this like you wouldn't believe. It's why even years later and being the demon of the fandom, he still attempts to integrate back in.
@@nobodybw1962 kind of nice that the pinned comment, the email from Penders, completely backs you up
@@yrobtsvtKen Penders needs to go sit on a cactus. 🥱
Also to add, one stipulation that Penders demanded for the use of his characters was that his 25 Years Later plotline be the canonical future for the comic. There was no way that was going to fly.
Matttt, I can definitely speak for everyone when I say THANK YOU for all these incredibly entertaining videos! We all learn so much about these interesting people and the stories they create! We love your work!
as for the original contracts, there was a disaster at the Archie head offices(a flood) where it was presumed that the original contracts were lost. Also, the number of comic creators supporting Penders in this lawsuit one could argue was seen at the time of a way to reverse or payback the DiCarlo situation; essentially resetting the scales of justice after DiCarlo was screwed. Overall great video, and you were exceptionally fair to Penders, especially in omitting 'The Lost Ones'
Is there a source for this?
Penders deserves no 'fairness'. He is and was a moron.
@@sebastienholmes548 it's stuff I've heard discussed informally, but I've heard it quite a few times.
Feels like that's an eternal quote with Archie Sonic.
"And then, something funny happens'
I wonder how Penders feels now that Ian is pretty much a writer for the games, its gotta sting more since SEGA is actually using some of the characters from the IDW comics in the mobile games and they're even considering putting some of those characters in the mainline games. On a side im pretty sure SEGA ended their license with Archie due to their incompetence regarding their legal cases, I mean they pretty much hired most of the Archie Sonic crew when they started the IDW series.
Considering how he reacts every time something mildly resembling one of his characters makes it into a story he didn’t write, I doubt he’s envious. He’s probably wondering why Flynn isn’t demanding a 7 figure sum for Surge in speed battle
I really like your documentary on Ken Penders, from his goal of making comics to his strength and weakness in storytelling that build up and saved Archie Sonic for a time.
Ok to be the BIGGEST nitpicker of all time, the old canon didn't end with 243, yes that was when penders characters were removed, but the last issue in the original universe was 247 and the reboot occurred in 251 in the finale of the mega man crossover. What's fun is that event was already scripted to include a temporally reboot and only include game characters, so it falling when it did might be one of the only reasons the comic managed to keep releasing monthly when all this kicked off. I also find Endangered Species the arc when Penders Knuckles characters had to be removed, REALLY good. Flynn could have phoned that in, but no, it's emotional, and dramatic and treats this major change straight, and even gives hope it could be reversed, I think it might be one of my fav works from him, especially with how last-minute it must have been.
The whole reaction to Penders is interesting, I was around at the start of the reboot and was only a teenager. I simply saw the lawsuit was caused by Penders and assumed it was his fault I couldn't see some of my favourite characters and the plot to continue anymore. But as I've gotten older, yeah. I'm still sad those stories never got an end, or I see those characters again, and I still don't like Penders writing, but he was in the right for what he did, and in a way, he stopped any nostalgia reuse of Archie sonics. The Flynn run I love so much is only going to exist in that beautiful six years of stories, along with characters like Scourge, Enjerjak, Shard the Metal Sonic, etc. And maybe that's a good thing in a world of endless nostalgia baiting.
Few other slight errors but I won't point them out since they are extreme nitpicks but great video of one of my favourite series from one of my fav CZcamsrs in a mashup I never expected, lol.
You got a mistake is not 243 is 244 because 243 what's the last time we see of the Pender characters Dan 244 came and started removing them and then we get later we got to 247 at the last time from the old continuity about to be reset right before we're going to jump into the crossover with megaman 252 the reboot happened
I don't disagree with Penders seeking the rights to his creations and wanting compensation for them. I support creators rights. It's a shame this whole saga could have worked out better. But the creators at Archie deserved their rights given Archie fumbled the ball by not having them sign the correct contracts.
Hooooweeverrrr.....in his recent work, Penders has repeatedly swiped and redrawn art by other creators that drew his scripts without crediting them. Then, when called out, has claimed that he owns the art because it's based on his scripts, even speaking as if it's somehow his own work based on that fact.
This makes me feel that Penders doesn't respect creators rights. He's in this fight for his own profits.
yeah it's insane this creator is defending the guy despite penders being a massive fucking hypocrite. did archie screw him over? yes. did he screw others over in the exact same way as archie? yes.
EDIT: There's even some hearsay about Penders stealing plots and characters from common fanfiction forums during the comic's run, if that ends up being confirmed then I'd even revoke my "he at least wrote good stories in the comics originally" because he wouldn't have written anything original, which honestly I don't doubt.
Fun fact: I kind of met Ken penders last year at comic con. I saw him out of the corner of my eye when I was walking around the convention but when I went to his booth the first time, his second wife (bernie) was manning it since he was getting a signature for his will shatner commission. I bought some things from the booth mainly a patch didn’t get one of the comics since they were selling them for 100 dollars plus I got his business card.
PUNCTUATION
@@hansolobutimdeadsorry I just wanted to share my story
@theshenpartei Well put punctuation and I'll be able to understand it
@@hansolobutimdeadfixed it
@@hansolobutimdead here you forgot these !¡!¡!¡!
Rest in Peace, Comichistorian
you have no idea how happy i felt when you said "it wasnt penders vs flynn, it was penders AND flynn"
i respect all the writers that worked on the archie sonic comics because it is my favorite comic series and i know that it was a result of the hard works of more than one person, it just makes me sad when i see most people in the sonic fan base take one side and attacks the other side not knowing that if any of these writers never worked on it this comic would never become great ( yes i called it great i dont care that it is one of the most infamous things ever ) .
all i can do now is to say THANK YOU for making this video, this was a video that needed to exist ( a non biased take on a controversial topic )
Penders deserved to get residuals and it would have been fine to just pay him for their use. But I totally get Archie and Flynn just saying, "sure we'll pay you when we use them" proceeds never to use them again lol. But his ego as "I created Archie Sonic, I'm entitled to any story follow ups or characterization" HOLY SHIT dude. It's a licensed comic. I feel most bad for Ian Flynn cause he had some amazing stories under his belt and would have come up with many more amazing stories in the Freedom Fighters continuity. It's really a shame how it all turned out. And there's 0 chance that Penders' butt ugly Lara Sue Chronicles thing is ever going to garner any success.
Penders acts like he did the majority of the work for SatAM lore as well, when the honest truth is the Archie Sonic comics are as far removed from SatAM as SatAM is from Sega Sonic. The IDW reboot and SEGA simplifying things by removing as much of the Archive/SatAM influence as possible was a godsend
@@BenCarverGraphics People act like SatAM is owned by Archie Comics. The Lore is NOT owned by Archie Comics. Its owned by Wildbrain aka DiC.
A part of me feels bad for Ken Penders. He inserted his own personal trauma, interests and hopes. Then he lost control of the plot, so to speak.
Lets not forget Penders mining fanfiction, roleplay, and fan characters to steal for the comic. That's the infamous origin of "Do not steal"
Wait, what do you mean exactly?
@@mitchellhancock7920 In the late 90's and early 2000's I used to RP on a text based RP environment called ChaosMUCK. It started to be an odd coincidence that comic storylines started looking suspiciously like past RP campaigns. Turns out we had a plant in our midst who was questioned and finally admitted to feeding characters and plotlines straight to Penders. Turns out she also parsed fanfiction to feed along to Archie.
@@MoteofLobross which stories and characters were those?
@@summersetbanjo7440 It's been literal decades. I'm sure the former admin of the MUCK remembers. I'd have to bug him about it one day.
@@MoteofLobross Translation: I made it all up. This never happened. I just want to Shade Penders.
Is it kind of weird that nobody talks about Michael Gallagher‘s contributions? I’ve noticed a common theme throughout all his fourth wall breaking work is kind of metaphysical about the nature of the comic, without ever directly addressing it.
You Forgot That Penders Claimed Shade The Echidna As His Own Creation
Even Though Sega Still Has The Copyright/Trademark To Disprove Him Otherwise
He tried putting it into his comic and selling an NFT of it, a real hypocrite considering how much he supposedly cares about creator's rights. Penders wastes precious hours in the court over frivolous lawsuits.
@@foxtopuscreations6046 Just Like Todd
McFarlane
Is he stupid?
Ironically, the IDW comics having more limitations than Archie actually worked out in the end because now Sega confirmed they’re canon to the games, which works perfectly since the comics were writing within the game rules/canon!
That also means Tangle is canon and I can’t wait to see her in the games someday :]
I actually liked satam and saw the comics as the continuation of that universe of sonic so I was upset when the reboot happened and than the cancellation of Archie sonic
@@ultimatespidybawlz2198 yea I get that, especially since we knew the satam characters for such a long time! But in my eyes I always felt like they had a good, very long run. And personally I always felt like the series technically already had a proper finale/ending with the operation endgame arc, sure it wasn’t perfect but that arc will always be the finale of Archie sonic in my heart!
Who cares if its canon if its boring and not worth reading.
@@slimynaut IDW Sonic is amazing! Great character moments and ideas! The story really takes the time to explore the character of it's main protagonist. Yeah it'll never have the expanded and crazy worldbuilding of Archie and SatAM or romance but it really isn't just some monster of the week schlock.
I am not even into comics, but drama between artists and writers is always delicious. Thanks for the odd, niche content.
Like Wilbert Awdry vs the first 3 illustrators of his books of the Railway Series. (Thomas The Tank Engine)
@@splat-trainproductionsI mean Wilbert's dilemma actually made more sense tbf, man just wants his engines to be accurate based on the reference material that he provided
@@xavierjuno4572 Maybe Awdry vs. Britt Allcroft? (Calling the IoS a magical land where dreams come true while Awdry tries to make the IoS as real as possible, lack of real engines & locations being acknowledged, Rule 55, Magic Railroad, etc.) Okay, that makes sense too, I guess Wilbert Awdry vs David Mitton & Andrew Brenner.
This is the only essay that humanizes Ken Penders. Behind all his shenanigans there's still a human being. Information over entertainment.
I would recommend checking out Lowart video essays about Penders Archie Sonic work from writer's perspective. But yeah, despite Ken doing some pretty petty stuff with trying to lawsuit Paramount or try to sell his "Lara-Su Chronicles" he's a human too, who had a career and some credibility in other IPs beside Sonic unlike Ian Flynn who's only known as "Sonic guy".
Just to clarify to whoever would read this, I'm not a fan of Penders as person and wouldn't support him, but at least I understand his story and all the jokes about him are kinda pointless and unfitting nowadays. It feels like people make fun of him not for a reason, but because everyone else does that.
Penders deserves nothing honestly. Nothing but a bully
@ashesGeek completely agree, feel like most people just use the "lol ken penders" thing for brownie points, even though it stopped being funny years ago
@wreday720 Not just that, but I find every new video trying to dissect how horrible Ken is to be like an expired apple juice.
I remember fans doing the exact same thing when discussing Takashi Iizuka to the point of making fun of his teeth and claiming him as less than human just because they didn't like 2010's games.
There are a lot of bad fandoms, but Sonic is definitely one of the most petty ones even if fans try to pretend everything is peaceful.
@@ashesGeekthe only reason I hate him is because he got rid of scourage the hedgehog and we’ll never see him in a Sonic game or ip
And although Ian Flynn is just known as a Sonic guy he did his job WELL and definitely deserves more in the comic industry.
After Penders finally released his own comic he has been promising for years now and seeing the overall response, he most DEFINITELY deserved it.
yup
He ruined ben hursts sonic satam movie which robbed us of the last chance to see a cast of character SEGA wants you to forget. I will never forgive that.
Hearing the words “Other M” as a Metroid fan made me perk up out of fear/concern
"I'm not saying it's Watchmen"
That's it, now I want to see the sequel to Bartkira but based around Sonic characters re-enacting Watchmen. Imagine how it'd piss off Alan Moore!
Imagine if Alan Moore did the sonic equivalent of watchmen lol.
Sounds nuts, but I’d read it.
this is one of those "you just had to be there" moments in the comics, i remember being so confused because they explained it as separate memories, then they did some classic storyline that had sally & rotor then the genesis wave happened again & the new explanation was that it was like fake memories or something then we just never saw those characters again, buying books hoping one of them showed up, they didnt even show up in the fanart portion on the last page they all just got straight up thanos snapped
the genesis storyline was way earlier and largely unrelated to the reboot lol.
@@haha_hollie yeah my memory is just foggy about it then
Matttt, as a longtime Sonic fan and someone who read the Archie run as it was coming out when I was a child, you knocked it out of the park with this one. I already know I'm gonna be coming back to this one more than a few times. I also really appreciate the more objective view of the lawsuit and Ken Penders' run on the comics. A lot of people tend to turn documentaries about this era of Sonic into an impromptu roast session on Penders, so it's refreshing to see someone only presenting the facts.
It is extremely hard to do because Penders himself is a walking around sidequest. Mattt didn't even touch on 'The Lost Ones' which, again, I feel was a mercy.
Matttt is the only guy who could have gotten me to care about Ken Penders ngl
I still dont
@@mrtimo3822 fair lol
"Oh, look. Matt has a new video out. Which comic will I be reading now?"
phenomenal video. ian's original canon getting cut off the way it did, in such a dramatic story at that, is something idk if i'll ever fully get over. but the recent archie sonic coverage, all of which being more than just "wow this comic was weeeeeeird" is giving me more closure than i ever thought i'd get. thank you for the hard work, it hasn't gone unnoticed :)
I agree. I'm really happy with the coverage archie sonic has gotten online recently
When you find yourself completely compelled by a documentary about a comic that up until now you had not given even the slightest shit about.
I like how matttt doesn't waste time in his videos just to boost watch time like so many other youtubers. He just gets right to the point and gets all the information across clearly. And his delivery is so passionate it really sounds like he's excited to tell you about stuff, unlike other channels that read lines in a detached and bland way. I'm so sick of videos where a guy who talks like a bad actor in a high school play slowly trickles out his point
Excellent analysis. And I agree! But the others will just have to keep practicing (and getting feedback if they're the real deal) until they reach this level.
As a lifelong Sonic fan, Archie Sonic was the first comic book I ever started collecting. It was the comic book that got me interested in the medium of comics (even as a 90s kid that grew up with Spider-Man, Batman and X- Men cartoons).
I still miss the continuity of the Archie Sonic comics, but I've been enjoying the Sonic IDW comics just as much
It’s a tragedy it never got a proper sendoff either with the original canon or the reboot. It deserves at least that much for lasting that long.
Sonic comics were some of the first media that I got super into as a kid. I would buy digital copies for my (tiny!) iPod touch and read them on there, and then later buy physical copies to read. I must have bought at least a few dozen of comics between the digital and print versions, Ken Penders and Ian Flynn issues. Heck, some of the first YT videos I ever did was reviewing issues of the comic! I had always heard rumbles of Penders drama but never knew the whole story of it. Thanks for taking the time to go over the whole thing and to interview the people involved as well. Even though I don't read Sonic comics anymore, I think that will always be a building block of both fandom and media analysis for me.
Jesus time wasn’t kind to Ken. Oof
Ken deserves it.
Your old thumbnail rocked. Didn't need to change it, but respect the grind either way
hello matttt, thank you for this doc. i really appreciate how it could've just been another penders dunk session (and man is there a lot to work with!) but you focused first and foremost on their contributions to the comic and the stories it led to, and also the legal battle as a piece of comic history. not sensationalism.
i have almost never seen any other channels interview one of these figures, let alone all three at the same time. it's incredible. i think i speak for the entire archie sonic fan community, and sonic fans in general, when i say, please release these full interviews (i realize some might have to be edited, especially Ian, considering he is under contract). they are the most recent word on a very contested saga, and a piece of sonic history. bollers i have *never* seen interviewed. ian even can be extremely tight lipped about the situation, understandably so. thank you so much for doing this work. the fandom appreciates you.
What a fantastic video. You did a stellar job getting the facts and info from the people themselves. Very well done.
It's like there's 2 Penders living inside Penders...
the "Cool Dad" who got involved writing a cartoon superhero to make his kid proud and accidently wrote a banger....
and a man so obsessed with greed that he became the literal thing the characters in his comics are fighting, its quite sad...dude actually morphed into a villain
I do not think he's obsessed with greed at all. He values his work and his time and just wants to be compensated appropriately for it - why is that greed?
@@maryz9319 Dude Stole Ben Hurst's characters, then gatekeep'd him away from doing a 3rd season AND a movie that was almost approved, all because he wanted the glory, then WON Ben Hurst's characters in a lawsuit that didn't even involve Ben Hurst, Ben got fucked over by Penders
@@joshwizinsky1979 Where's the proof that he owns Ben Hursts characters. I only saw his echidna characters on that list. If anything DIC / Wildbrain owns Ben Hursts characters.
@@joshwizinsky1979 Bro, Ken and others have stated multiple times that the owners of the SatAM cast is SOA and Wildbrain, maybe. If SOA or SOJ wanted the FF to come back, they would be back in a heartbeat. Archie exclusive characters seem to be more difficult to pin down tho.
@@MrRobot2027-wd9iw Yup. Wildbrain, formerly DIC Entertainment.
It speaks volumes about the quality of this channel that it had me completely glued to the screen while watching a video about... Sonic comics. Kudos, Matttt!
This video was on point, Matttt! With the money I was able to get from mowing lawns in the neighborhood as a kid in the 90s, I was able to buy a handful of those early Archie Sonic issues. I loved reading those things back in the day, and your video took me down memory lane. The work you put into getting interviews and gathering info really shows. Solid coverage and commentary! Keep up the awesome work!
From making Nazi echidnas, rewriting a Holocaust poem about Sonic, trying to make a character he made date Sally even though he’s older and wrote about losing her virginity, tried to copyright strike Paramount over a Sonic and Tails plane scene, and claiming a bunch of characters, and only allowed people to use them if they plastered his name on it, and then making NFTS. Yeah, I don’t see why he isn’t hated.
And Penders finally dropped the book, its filled with Copyrighted material and the high quality penders art youve ever seen.
9:04 ken has balls of steel because this sounds like a perfect way to make everyone question your ability to take the holocaust seriously.
Edit: the only other writer with a similar style of pure madness is tui, but they’re not bad at writing, just very strange.
While I think it was right for Penders to sue Archie, I don't think he had any ground to stand on when it came to his lawsuit against Sonic Chronicles. It honestly makes me so upset about what happened to the game as a result.
Evil faction of Echidnas vs. Evil faction of Echidnas
Dark Legion vs. Dark Brotherhood
Something about a Twilight Zone vs. Something about a Twilight Cage
I can see the similarities and why he'd think his ideas were stolen.
matttt, you are amazing at what you make and you entertain us with your videos so much. The editing skills, the interesting story and the admiration and dedication you have for comic books. You seem to enjoy what you do. Keep going, matttt!
I believe that just the comic book side of things isn't enough to judge Penders' character. There is a lot of weird and bad stuff he did (even within the comic book side of his life and work) that you omit here, making this kinda feel like you are stepping on eggshels.
One thing i feel like is missing from the beginning: "known for archie comics." Yeah, for sure. But prior to sonic, archie was publishing the TMNT comic that had already started going in weird and dark directions. Sonic wasn't archie comics first successful licensed comic.
I really like this video, its obvious you put a lot of research, time, and effort into making it and it really shows in the quality product. I'd also like to thank you for giving this comic the fair shake it deserves and not dismissing it like so many Sonic fans and people online usually do. As a massive fan of the comics, these are what got me both into Sonic and into comics in general, so they're very near and dear to my heart. Looking forward to your next video, no matter what it may be!
You're one of the best comics-video-essay channels on CZcams. This is the most in depth look at the Archie Sonic fiasco I've ever seen, and the first one where I walked away not thinking that Ken Penders was the moustache twirling villain.
These are definitely some of the most engaging video essays I have come across. Keep up the PHENOMENAL work Matttt!
Does he deserve it? Considering his lawsuit destroyed any future attempt to make any new Echidnas to the series after Dark Brotherhood, and cause Archie and Sega to essentially wipe away practically 20+ years of storytelling and world building, all for some crazy ass storyline that nobody really wanted or asked for…yea, he kind does deserve it.
Archie and Sega chose to go about it the way they did. Ken wanted to licensed the characters, they chose not to.
i think Sega revoking the IP from archie was a combination of both the Penders v Archie lawsuit and their plans for a divided sonic continuity between east and west falling apart (sonic boom heh bombing) and had to make a change in policy hence the collaboration between Sega of Japan and Sega of America growing tighter before SoJ was content to live in ignorance and indifference at what SoA was doing with the IP as long as they played along with the mainline releases, but after 06, after boom, after the lawsuits about characters and storylines the japanese had no idea were happening, something had to give and they concluded that both branches united could reinvigorate the IP after the bad streak bad games, bad reception, bad press, haunting sonic, it is no coincidence that IDW is releasing the sonic in japanese something archie never did, someone at SoJ has to keep tabs on what the branches are doing lest they "break bad" and cause problems like archie and penders did
I can't believe it! Earlier this week, I watched your videos on Todd McFarlane and Carl Barks.
And then this video came out, covering a comic and franchise that I have been deeply invested in! This video was awesome. Thank you for covering the Sonic comics.
The funny thing is, I'm pretty sure that Archie Sonic isn't the strangest Video Game Comic tie-in.
There was a Brazillian Mega Man comic that had some almost comically dark content. Most infamously, the original writer introduced a villain named "Princess" and planned to have her kill off the entire cast and take over the comic.
Honourable mention to the Street Fighter comic that got cancelled after a single issue because the writers thought it was a good idea to have Ken get scalped.
Makes you wonder what kind of genesis mega man had for such an idea to even be considered in that country specfically.
@@jamesstanley792
That's the funny part. From what I understand, Princess Guy was the one who pitched the comic in the first place, aiming to use the brand name to boost awareness of his own comic.
The Brazilian Mega Man comic would deserve its own video if it weren't put out of its misery so early, for better or for worse
Great video! I jumped into reading these as a kid. I just happened to start at #11. I got it at the local grocery store. I still have it, although it's in rough condition.
I got the back issues as well. I liked the silly aspect of those. Slowly throughout the issues it got more serious. I stopped reading around issue 100 I believe.
I had lost interest and was doing other things at that point. At that point I feel like the story got so convoluted.
I never realized how long it lasted afterwards, or all the drama behind it. I was just a kid who wanted to read about Sonic. I feel it started going downhill when they "killed" off the original Robotnik.
I grew up with the Archie Sonic comics and they’re some of my favorite comics ever
Ken looks like an entirely different person. I know people change as they age, but like most people still look a little bit like themselves. Ken now vs ken then is like night and day or 6'0 vs 5'11
Honestly, I didn't expect you to do something like this, probably because sonic stuff feels way more of a games thing rather than comics.. but this vid looks awesome and I'm glad more people are gonna find out about ken penders
Excellent video quality. Enjoyed learning new facts about the comic and wish you the best of luck on your channel!
Oh god, Ken Penders. I was not expecting this to be a video so soon
Ooooh boy, we're gonna talk about Penders!
Lol, you talk about Pender's awful movie pitch without addresing him sabotage Ben Hurst plans for Sonic Satam season 3 before he dies.
Oh hell yeah. I read this religiously growing up and own roughly 200+ issues of this iteration of Sonic. Even had a few letters printed in the back. The meta lore around the series is crazy.
as someone fascinated with wanting to know behind the scenes of creatives behind the archie sonic material, this is an extremely refreshing perspective!
had a fun time watching these through and through learning new information how the comics came to be and the creatives at hand in a new lens.
This was fantastic to hear both sides. Personally I've never really cared much for the American side of Sonic and always preferred the Japanese side so seeing this stuff regarding Archie Comics and how Ian Flynn eventually became head of the IDW comics is interesting. I do think it's best for the comics, the IDW ones, to be separate from the games because it gives them more freedom to do whatever. The Archie comic are already pretty clearly separate from the games
Yes he does, for the Sally and Geoffrey thing ALONE. That, and he took credit for concepts that weren’t even popular until AFTER other writers took them over (I.E. Scourge).
Dude, Matttt, you have not only become the best comic youtuber on the platform, but you have become one of my personal favorite creaters ever. These kinds of video essays are what I look for when i open up this app and yi woild dare to say that you do them the best.
Thanks to this video I tracked down all three issues of the Sienkiewicz-illustrated Dune comic from 1985. Thanks as always Mattt!
I feel bad for making fun of this, but Ken Pender's art on his original work legit jump scared me with how bad it is. I can't think of the last time a page made me go "oooooo yikes" out loud
Ian Flynn's story is so goddam inspiring dude. I love that guy and his passion for his work.
I know right. Went from a college age fan making amateur fan comics about Sonic to a highly prolific comic writer who manage to become the definitive writer for many Sonic related stuff (also Mega Man).
Like he is basically a Bizarro Chris-Chan in that regards.
To each their own
As good as the IDW comics are, I still kinda prefer the Archie comics. I very much enjoyed the cast of villains such as Mogul Mammoth, Ixis Naugus, Finitevus, the Dark Legion, the Iron Dominion, the Egg Chapters, Enerjak, the Xorda, and others.
SCOTT SHAW
!
So I can see why Ken went after Archie after this, BUT; that doesn't excuse his Ryback-like attitude nowadays. And 14 years to release your own comic?! I know a friend that took less time to release his, and he never worked for a major comic company. Oh and his Lara-Su Chronicles artwork looks like garbage!
This video punches well above its weight. Great delivery and editing.
It made me care about a topic that I cared nothing about.
Glad you brought light to almost everything in the video cause that ending seem a bit underbaked. I always like knowing more about the ins and outs of what happened during the time the Archie series was published, and how you highlighted all the motivations of the people who come into play was a nice touch. Really helped that you delivered it all very concisely too. My fave video from you yet (also cause it's about sonic).
That was really, really well put together.
Matttt covering the Archie Sonic Comic? Woo boy, strap in.
I mean, why else do we consume media if not to experience other people's deeply personal weirdness? Dont let anyone tell you otherwise lol
This just popped up in my feed as I was drawing and I found myself completely enthralled. Well done! Now I need to get Ian's run...
Another great video, Matt! I had no idea the Archie Sonic had such a complicated history. And once again, thank you so much for the shout out!
It's so crazy how you can hear the same story multiple times but get new details added that recontextualizes everything.
Ken Penders for me went from a weirdo, to a villain, to an anti-hero, to a sympathetic angry old man.