I'm a chess hobbyist - which is to say, I'm not a strong player by any means. I really enjoy your channel; I like the way you explain the moves and possibilities. Well done.
I’m confused: Black can escape the checkmate threat by sacrificing the Queen at the beginning -> chess engines assume best moves -> wouldn’t the chess engine assume it’s not mate in 10 because it’s avoidable? There are plenty of times where I threaten back rank mate, but it wouldn’t be “stockfish misses mate in 1” cause they just move a pawn for the king to escape.
Another comment touched on that. It “missed” it in that it wasn’t forced, so there’s no reason for it to consider it. So it just wasn’t showing it because it wasn’t necessary. If it was given the position as a puzzle and the “bail out” by Black wasn’t there, it would surely calculate it. So I think it’s more a fun video by Sam?
@@airculver Pretty sure there is at some point, because once you have the bishop on g7, you line the rooks up on the h-file, take out h5 and put the remaining rook on h8 for mate. Not sure if it works fully though because there might still be a defense with kh7.
I'm not sure what your point is. Stockfish isn't confused. If you play out the moves 35. Qf6+ Bxf6 36. gxf6+ and then play Kg8, any chess engine will easily find the mate for white in 8 moves. if you back up the position to gxf6+ by white and now it is blacks turn, NO engine will select Kg8 since the engine would rather lose their queen than get mated faster. So, it is NOT a mate in 10, since, as you stated, black can bail out. Even after black gives up the queen, it will soon lose its Rook on f8 but can get back a minor piece after d4. It is still going to be a tough game for white, and Stockfish, looking over 20 moves ahead doesn't see any more gain for white. By the way, After black plays Qxf6, it is first best for white to play the move you mentioned, Bh6+, forcing the king away from the its queen, then white can capture the Queen, saving the pawn. If white recaptures first, then black's king can capture the white pawn on f6 then be driven back to g7 after Bg5.
Figured it would be Qf6+ Bxf6 gxf6+ Qxf6 and then Bh6+ (not exf6+ allowing the king to escape), then exf6 followed up by some rook action and eventually put the bishop on g7 and mate with Rh8#
"not quite difficult for a strong human" i'm not sure about that, i think a GM wouldn't play that in a regular game. puzzles are different because you know there's indeed a winning move and you often have to sacrifice pieces and look for strange moves. anyways my stockfish on normal hardware finds Qf6+ after a minute
I followed this positon up with further analysis. And apparently there is no forced checkmate, because black still has h5 and Kh7, as well as Rfd8 and Rd5!
This is really interesting in the sense that you don't need a Magnus Carlsen to see this. I think many good players would at least consider Qf6 as a candidate. And you are right, Stockfish can't see it.
_"Chess Engines Can't Find This Checkmate"_ Actually, three of my engines found Qf6+ it quite easily on just two threads (1-cpu). Qf6+!! found by/in... ShashChess 24 - 9s Black Diamond XI - 9s Black Diamond 13 - 26s Gonna have to redo the title of this video now. 😂
Did it display the mating line as a lesser alternative (not the strongest move)? Some in the chat section were saying it wasn’t really that the engine didn’t see it, but that it wasn’t necessary to show a line that was neither forced nor the best.
@@cz19856 ShashChess 24 is based on Stockfish 15, while Black Diamond 11/13 are forks of I think SF12/13. They're tuned to put more emphasis on finding tactical lines.
@@amosdraak3536 Didn't display mate because i didnt leave it long enough to calc it out. I expect it will though if left for longer or if i turn on multicore.
I'm a chess hobbyist - which is to say, I'm not a strong player by any means. I really enjoy your channel; I like the way you explain the moves and possibilities. Well done.
Same by me
I’m confused: Black can escape the checkmate threat by sacrificing the Queen at the beginning -> chess engines assume best moves -> wouldn’t the chess engine assume it’s not mate in 10 because it’s avoidable?
There are plenty of times where I threaten back rank mate, but it wouldn’t be “stockfish misses mate in 1” cause they just move a pawn for the king to escape.
Another comment touched on that. It “missed” it in that it wasn’t forced, so there’s no reason for it to consider it. So it just wasn’t showing it because it wasn’t necessary. If it was given the position as a puzzle and the “bail out” by Black wasn’t there, it would surely calculate it. So I think it’s more a fun video by Sam?
The black king doesn't escape so easily though if you go Bh6+ first before recapturing the black queen with exf6.
@@Corteum is there a mate?
@@airculver Pretty sure there is at some point, because once you have the bishop on g7, you line the rooks up on the h-file, take out h5 and put the remaining rook on h8 for mate. Not sure if it works fully though because there might still be a defense with kh7.
I'm not sure what your point is. Stockfish isn't confused. If you play out the moves 35. Qf6+ Bxf6 36. gxf6+ and then play Kg8, any chess engine will easily find the mate for white in 8 moves. if you back up the position to gxf6+ by white and now it is blacks turn, NO engine will select Kg8 since the engine would rather lose their queen than get mated faster. So, it is NOT a mate in 10, since, as you stated, black can bail out. Even after black gives up the queen, it will soon lose its Rook on f8 but can get back a minor piece after d4. It is still going to be a tough game for white, and Stockfish, looking over 20 moves ahead doesn't see any more gain for white. By the way, After black plays Qxf6, it is first best for white to play the move you mentioned, Bh6+, forcing the king away from the its queen, then white can capture the Queen, saving the pawn. If white recaptures first, then black's king can capture the white pawn on f6 then be driven back to g7 after Bg5.
Komodo Dragon 3.1 found it at depth 40 🙂
What a beautiful variation! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Sam, fascinating position.
Figured it would be Qf6+ Bxf6 gxf6+ Qxf6 and then Bh6+ (not exf6+ allowing the king to escape), then exf6 followed up by some rook action and eventually put the bishop on g7 and mate with Rh8#
"not quite difficult for a strong human" i'm not sure about that, i think a GM wouldn't play that in a regular game. puzzles are different because you know there's indeed a winning move and you often have to sacrifice pieces and look for strange moves. anyways my stockfish on normal hardware finds Qf6+ after a minute
I followed this positon up with further analysis. And apparently there is no forced checkmate, because black still has h5 and Kh7, as well as Rfd8 and Rd5!
my engine says Rxh7 can also lead to mate? will it lead to mate?
i did it on first attempt except for finding the defensive move i don't wanna spoil
Great new idea(s). Human v computers
This is really interesting in the sense that you don't need a Magnus Carlsen to see this. I think many good players would at least consider Qf6 as a candidate. And you are right, Stockfish can't see it.
my engine finds it in 2-3 min
Lovely explanation.
Is this position from an actual game?
I have a feeling it will involve Qf6+ but I cannot calculate my way through :D
It's a good feeling .Trust me lol
Are you sure if black continues playing with a full piece down, white will win again?
Positive feedback :)
That pawn on f6 is Worth a rook :)
_"Chess Engines Can't Find This Checkmate"_
Actually, three of my engines found Qf6+ it quite easily on just two threads (1-cpu).
Qf6+!! found by/in...
ShashChess 24 - 9s
Black Diamond XI - 9s
Black Diamond 13 - 26s
Gonna have to redo the title of this video now. 😂
Maybe weaker engines use other strategies i.e. to brute force all the possible lines that in positions like this
Did it display the mating line as a lesser alternative (not the strongest move)? Some in the chat section were saying it wasn’t really that the engine didn’t see it, but that it wasn’t necessary to show a line that was neither forced nor the best.
@@cz19856 ShashChess 24 is based on Stockfish 15, while Black Diamond 11/13 are forks of I think SF12/13. They're tuned to put more emphasis on finding tactical lines.
@@amosdraak3536 Didn't display mate because i didnt leave it long enough to calc it out. I expect it will though if left for longer or if i turn on multicore.
@@amosdraak3536 I followed this positon up with further analysis. ANd it turns out there is no checkmate, because black still has h5 and Kh7.