Why we run 25mm Taller Ball Joints

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  • čas přidán 5. 09. 2024

Komentáře • 90

  • @zeno15sti33
    @zeno15sti33 Před 5 měsíci +8

    😊😊😊, this is what I love about the community

  • @5thAve_Ricky
    @5thAve_Ricky Před 5 měsíci +4

    I’m running the caster adding sti oem aluminum arms on my SF5 wagon with white line bushings / tie rod ends and white line extended ball joints. Absolutely love it , will upgrade to 25mm ball joints when I need a new pair

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Excellent! Thanks for watching and hope they work well for you.

  • @TheZohanLohan
    @TheZohanLohan Před 5 měsíci +4

    On the wisefab knuckles on my GD i was still able to get -3° camber with standard sti control arms and mooresport camber plates

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. That is good to hear. Maybe the Mooresport Camber Plates are a key ingredient. Glad the Wisefab Knuckles are working well for you.
      Stay Tuned!

  • @-16-wrx-
    @-16-wrx- Před 5 měsíci +2

    Awesome watch. Im running the Super Pro roll center kit currently. But their like 5 years old. I just bought the Cobb front control arms with the offset bushing.
    I might go ahead and try those ball joints.
    I've used that company's products in the past and have been happy.

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      Thanks for watching, and I think if you are making that change, it is the perfect time to try these ball joints as well.
      Hope they help and Stay Tuned!

  • @matthewchild7927
    @matthewchild7927 Před 5 měsíci +2

    Damn i wish knew about these before i bought the whiteline product.

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +2

      For what it is worth, we do prefer running them with the Whiteline tie-rods, so you would still use those 🙂
      Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

  • @jonnyturbo6142
    @jonnyturbo6142 Před 5 měsíci +3

    solid info,thanks! I've wanted to replace the ball joints on the my sti lower control arms, that I bought used, for my 05' FXT...I'm on KYB struts with swift lowering springs

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Excellent! Hope these work out well for you.
      Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

  • @Dantutz
    @Dantutz Před 5 měsíci +1

    Great overview, Jon.
    One observation.
    The caster gain with extended ball joints is valid if, indeed, the angle of the LCA would be as you've shown, dropping towards the rear. And this only happens fith anti-lift rear bushings. Otherwise, with the stock height rear bushings, the control arms on Subarus are rather horizontal, and biased towards anti dive.

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. I agree with what you said.
      There are two things that the taller ball-joint does. One is to improve camber gain as the suspension compresses, and the other is to increase or maintain a caster angle by lowering the resting point of the front LCA. The amount of an effect that the taller ball joint will have is tied directly to how much of an angle the front LCA is off of horizontal. Putting on an anti-lift kit that drops the rear of the LCA to increase that angle will give you more of an effect from the taller ball joint.
      The camber gain would be beneficial separately from that
      Thanks again and Stay Tuned!

  • @485Runner
    @485Runner Před 5 měsíci +1

    Thanks for the info. Hope to try these out with my KW setup.

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Excellent! Hope they work well for you.
      Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

  • @pault151
    @pault151 Před 5 měsíci +4

    A very informative vid, thanks.
    SCCA autocross (Street Touring class) rules state that you can't change the spacing "between the hub carrier and lower suspension arm", so unfortunately it seems like I can't use this taller ball joint in my STI (correct me if you think I'm wrong). I already have a camber plate that increases caster, does the SuperPro SPF1388AK control arm bushing seem like another way to increase caster?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      Thanks for watching! I agree that if the rules say that you can change the distance from the hub to the lower suspension arm, this type of roll correction isn't an option for that class.
      Since those bushings are eccentric, yes, they would give you a bit more caster of they are allowed. Worth a shot.
      Thanks again and Stay Tuned!

    • @mikes6707
      @mikes6707 Před 5 měsíci

      If you dig around some old posts in the motorsports part of NASIOC, pretty sure you'll find people talking about a similar Whiteline bushing for the GD chassis that people in various Street Touring classes would throw on instead of the geometry-changing anti-lift kit. Never ran it myself, but my understanding was different bushing orientations could focus on a slight change in anti-lift characteristics or a wee bit more caster, maybe not both at the same time.

    • @pault151
      @pault151 Před 5 měsíci

      @@mikes6707 The Superpro have to be installed at a specific orientation to be +caster apparently. But because you can put them in at any clock position I suppose that you could vary vs. anti-lift too.

  • @BajaWRX
    @BajaWRX Před 5 měsíci +2

    So if im running lifted, around an inch higher for off-road ground clearance, should I use 20-25mm shorter ball joints?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for your question. If your car is lifted, then the issue that you can start to run into is that you run out of downward travel for your suspension. If you are lifted, I'd say that you would want to stick with the stock ball-joints, as the extra height will get you into trouble sooner.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

  • @woodzy575
    @woodzy575 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Nice! Definitely something I need to look at

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Excellent! Glad that this was helpful.
      Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

  • @SushiPac
    @SushiPac Před 5 měsíci +1

    Love these info videos!!!!!

  • @matthewwain9958
    @matthewwain9958 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Curious what the minimum measurement of lowering for these to actually be effective, and not be detrimental.

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. I'd say if you are just about 1" lower, then the standard Roll Center kit is fine.
      If you are 1.5" or more lower than stock, that is where I'd look at the 25mm ball joints.
      FWIW, I am only about 1.5" lower on my WRX and these 25mm ball joints have worked very well.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

    • @matthewwain9958
      @matthewwain9958 Před 5 měsíci

      @@FlatironsTuning thanks. That's perfect info.

  • @StelaPop
    @StelaPop Před 5 měsíci +3

    are these +25mm ball joints and whiteline tie rods both compatible with 2022+ WRX. Also, what is the goldilocks zone of lowering the 2022+ WRX

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +4

      Thanks for watching and thanks for the question. As far as I know currently, these are not an option for the 2022+ WRX. If we can find an option for the new WRX we'll be sure to put it on our site.
      Stay Tuned!

    • @beaches2mountains230
      @beaches2mountains230 Před 5 měsíci +1

      WE NEED THESE FOR THE VB'S !!! ID BUY THEM RIGHT NOW.

  • @jaimeaj24
    @jaimeaj24 Před 5 měsíci +2

    I know that you mentioned that you use the aftermarket tie rods with these ball joints, but would there be any downsides of using the factory tie rods (assuming they aren't binding at the desired height)?
    Also, how much lower than factory is your Pike's Peak car?
    That you again for another stellar video!!

    • @AlmostAverageAutomotive
      @AlmostAverageAutomotive Před 5 měsíci +1

      +1 for the same question, I recently replaced mine with stock, which I guess would lead a follow on question, is an alignment necessary? Seem's like the camber would change however toe shouldn't. At least in my head 😂

    • @martinburnett3852
      @martinburnett3852 Před 5 měsíci

      could induce bump steer

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +2

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. Yes, binding would be the potential issue with the stock tie-rods.
      The Pikes Peak car is about 2" lower than stock, maybe a little more.
      Very glad that the video helped!
      Stay Tuned!

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      @AlmostAverageAutomotive Yes, if you put the taller ball-joints on you would need to align the car because it would change the geometry, etc.
      Thanks for the question and Stay Tuned!

  • @impulseproman
    @impulseproman Před 5 měsíci +1

    Hardrace make some good product

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for watching. We do like Hardrace parts from what we have seen so far.
      Stay Tuned!

  • @billyrosewood5474
    @billyrosewood5474 Před 5 měsíci +2

    I am running the Whiteline kit on a BRZ.
    Does the 25mm kit only work because of AWD, or could it also work on BRZ Platform?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. The short answer is that this can work on your BRZ. Really, this can be needed or recommended for any car with McPherson front suspension that is lowered. And your BRZ does have that type of front suspension.
      If you aren't that much lower than stock, then a standard roll-center kit would work (Whiteline, etc.), but if you are more than 1" lower, then you could try the 25mm ball joints.
      Tomioka Racing does make a BRZ specific 25mm ball joint as well.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Sorry, forgot to include the link:
      www.flatironstuning.com/tr-cs2005

  • @BadJo0Jo0
    @BadJo0Jo0 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Interested in putting this on my 04 FXT.
    Currently on Forester Swift Springs (settled it's been lowered 1-1.5 inches), KYB shocks/struts, Titanium front tower bar, Whiteline quick disconnect rear tower bar, everything STI I could carry over (Steering rack, LCA, Front Sway bar, Lateral links), and new Group N bushings everywhere.
    I am getting more understeer as I'm getting more used to the current setup. Didn't know if just uprating sway bars (notably the front) would remedy my situation.
    This is purely a street car, but my suspension upgrade path was modeled after successful autocross guys, while not going too hardcore. Since roads around me allow for the same type of driving.
    Since you guys have lots of experience, would you say this would be more of a gain over uprating my front sway bar as a sole upgrade or should this be done in tandem?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. If you are lowered that much, I'd say that it would be worth trying this ball-joint. If you pair it with an Anti-Lift kit, you will definitely have a lot more caster since you are running the STI LCA's. This will make your front suspension work better, and that is what will give you more front grip.
      I'd say this will be a better path to go down to reduce understeer as just putting on a front sway bar will give you a bit better turn-in, but it will also give you more understeer at corner exit.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

    • @BadJo0Jo0
      @BadJo0Jo0 Před 5 měsíci +1

      @@FlatironsTuning Thanks for taking the time to reply!

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      @@BadJo0Jo0 No problem at all! You can always reach out through our LIve Chat:
      direct.lc.chat/10215172/

  • @Kruse1
    @Kruse1 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Whiteline make a strut top mount with increase camber OR increase caster depending on which way it is mounted. I don’t see that mentioned a lot - perhaps because most clovers do away with the strut top mount. I suppose for a 20mm drop with lowering springs the 10mm taller ball joint and positive caster strut top mount would suffice right?

    • @jeffarcher8791
      @jeffarcher8791 Před 5 měsíci +1

      Those don't gain much camber, and those top hats had defects in the beginning and now everyone thinks they are not worth it

    • @Kruse1
      @Kruse1 Před 5 měsíci

      @@jeffarcher8791 ah right, should at least give some caster. Since I have them and some Eibach springs lying around I'm going to throw them in and see what happens ..since I've had them lying around for ages I hope they're not one of the early defect ones.

    • @pault151
      @pault151 Před 5 měsíci

      The most recent plates I have gotten are Vorschlag (got 'em from RaceComp Engineering) and they have an angled slot so there is some negative camber and some extra caster, because everything is located as far "in" as is compatible with some "back" for the caster. I still get, once I adjust at the slotted bolt on the coil over mount, almost -4 camber. For Street Touring I can't cut the circle in the fender at top of shock. Haven't measured the camber gain from the extra caster. But if I put in the SuperPro rear LCA bushings I will measure the final result. There isn't much room left for negative camber on this arrangement, the springs are near the body on the inside of the tower.
      I /have/ seen an unusual coilover arrangement on someone else's car, reminds me of a motorcycle upside down fork a little, where apparently the shaft for the center of the coilover does not come out of the top, which allows just a bit more negative to the coilover. This same one also is set to limit the compression travel to the point that the tire is stopped just before it hits the fender, which allows one to use about an 11" wheel and 295 section tire spaced out so that about an inch pokes out of the fender, sort of off road truck style. But it has limited travel and if you end up bottoming out then your spring rate goes to infinity and the car goes into understeer. (This class does not allow any cutting or flaring of the fender so a stock GD is pretty much limited to a 255/40-17 that stays inside the fender.)

    • @Kruse1
      @Kruse1 Před 5 měsíci

      @pault151 ah yes I see, thanks for that ..all the plates I've been looking at are centred whereas that Vorschlag is offset for more caster to the detriment of a little bit camber range ..which can be made at the hub bolts with most coilovers/shocks by the look of it.

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      @Kruse1 Thanks for your question. We used those on our Pikes Peak car when we were running the KW V-3 suspension. And you are correct, we picked those because they are designed for the stock sized springs, and KW designed their coilovers for the stock strut tops.
      That is where the Whiteline Com-C (or Off-Set Strut Mounts) come into play. There are a few Rally guys running them with good results now too.
      They can definitely work well, but your suspension has to be set up to use the stock strut tops. If your suspension comes with different top-hats, then you will need to use those, and often times, the adjustment that those have is a great tool to have.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

  • @TheeHenley
    @TheeHenley Před 5 měsíci +3

    with running these 25mm taller ball joints what tie rods would we run still either white line or super pro ?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. Yes, we are running them with the standard Whiteline Tie Rods and everything is working well.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

    • @TheeHenley
      @TheeHenley Před 5 měsíci +1

      @@FlatironsTuning if I swapped out my white line ball joints to these 25mm should I get a alignment ?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      @@TheeHenley Yes, you would need an alignment when making that change.

    • @Dantutz
      @Dantutz Před 5 měsíci

      The tie rods are not so much of an issue, since they mainly affect bump steer. The problem is the roll center, and that's affected only by the LCA angle. This is why having options for the lower ball joint only, like Tamioka, is just great. Especially since whiteline and superpro get all loose and can kill you.

    • @Dantutz
      @Dantutz Před 5 měsíci

      *roll center AND dynamic camber. Double win with the lower joints.

  • @slippinsideways240sx
    @slippinsideways240sx Před 5 měsíci +1

    We do lemons in a 98 forester with coilovers and STI LCA. Any geuss as to why we keep shearing the nut of the lower ball joint? has happened 3 times in 4-5 races. We've been pretty lucky so far to have not hit anything with the failures. Yes, they have been torqued correct. Not that it matters as the nut is now welded on. 😂

    • @pault151
      @pault151 Před 5 měsíci +1

      Maybe get someone with experience to look at the failed part to see what the fracture surface says. Just a wild guess that the component might be getting torqued beyond its long term capabilities (fatigued) because something else in the system is frozen and the twist is transferring? If the nut is shearing off, being welded in place may not prevent the failure, depending on where things are breaking.

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. That is really strange. That is a lot of shearing force at that point where there typically shouldn't be any. I wonder if there is something bent that is causing some weird movement that is introducing that force?
      Maybe an odd question, but you are using the Transverse Boss cones on the ball joints?
      www.flatironstuning.com/subaru-oem-transverse-link-boss-04-21-sti-15-21-wrx-06-09-lgt-spec-b
      I'd say that it would definitely be worth getting a second opinion about what could be causing that issue.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

  • @SPQR_GuiGui
    @SPQR_GuiGui Před 5 měsíci +1

    Great video as always ! I have a 2018 WRX STI on Öhlins R&T (higher than recommended, so ~15-20mm lower than stock). Would you recommend those in my application (for a street car that is used mainly for mountain passes/roads) ?

    • @SushiPac
      @SushiPac Před 5 měsíci +1

      I would say the stock ones are fine for your application if you do want to get alittle more I would go with the whiteline correction kit

    • @SPQR_GuiGui
      @SPQR_GuiGui Před 5 měsíci

      @@SushiPac Thx !

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      @SPQR_GuiGui Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. If you are just under 1" lower than stock, I'd say that the standard roll center kit would be a good option. You will most likely see the benefit for it, but I don't think that you would need the 25mm ball joints at that point.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

    • @SPQR_GuiGui
      @SPQR_GuiGui Před 5 měsíci +1

      @@FlatironsTuning Thx for the advice !😉

  • @chandlerbraaten847
    @chandlerbraaten847 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Does the Cobb roll center correction kit work with GD chassis STi? Everywhere I've seen it listed says 08+ but I've done the research by comparing factory part numbers across all years and i see no reason why it wouldn't fit. Pretty much every subaru made uses the same part number ball joint and outer tie rod end. Am I missing something?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. While I agree that the Cobb kit is most likely the same as the Whiteline and Super Pro kits that say they work on the older cars, I'd just recommend using one of those two that says it is correct for your application.
      That is usually the best way to go.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

  • @mikeyo4406
    @mikeyo4406 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Do they make them for a 1998 Acura Integra?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. They don't from what I can tell. Since your car has double-wishbone suspension up front, not McPherson, this wouldn't be a benefit to you.
      I'd recommend looking at the Skunk@ Upper Control arms.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

    • @mikeyo4406
      @mikeyo4406 Před 5 měsíci

      @@FlatironsTuning thanks 😊

  • @fernandor887
    @fernandor887 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Can I install the superpro with a stock suspension and Beatrush motor mounts.

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. Yes, you could install those parts together.
      Stay Tuned!

  • @twinscrollbugeye
    @twinscrollbugeye Před 3 měsíci

    How would running 25mm ball joints with a stock height Subaru work? Great video

    • @martinburnett3852
      @martinburnett3852 Před 2 měsíci

      I’m not sure man but if you raise your roll centre above the COG when cornering the car will actually jack rather than roll over. Not good. May aswell try it and test drive it though

  • @jeffarcher8791
    @jeffarcher8791 Před 5 měsíci +1

    The S209 comes with STi Pinks. They are about a 20mm drop over a standard STi. Would that car benifit from those ball joints?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      @jeffarcher8791 Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. If you are just under 1" lower than stock, I'd say that the standard roll center kit would be a good option. You will most likely see the benefit for it, but I don't think that you would need the 25mm ball joints at that point.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

  • @CJ5EVOLUTION
    @CJ5EVOLUTION Před 5 měsíci +1

    Do you support Mitsubishi old sport compact suspension components?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      Thanks for your question. That isn't something that we specialize in, but if you have part numbers of what you are looking for, we can definitely see what we can do.
      Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

  • @briansexton713
    @briansexton713 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Would the 25 mm ball joint have any benefit on a stock setup?
    I have a 2012 sti, with newer VA Sti struts/springs swapped on, with the newer quicker ratio steering rack also installed.

    • @TDT0188
      @TDT0188 Před 5 měsíci +1

      The 25mm ball joint is very motorsport oriented. You don't need it on a stock street car and it will likely do some of the negative things jon says the wisefab knuckles did to their pikes car. VA struts lower you like a half inch or less I think? At most you need the 10mm kits, but it's a waste if you're basically stock. I wouldn't bother.

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. If your car is at stock ride height, the suspension geometry should be fairly good. I would say that there would be a lot of benefit from putting on something like an Anti-Lift kit, or the Super Pro arms with added caster bushings to get a bit more caster going, and then you would see a good benefit from adding the standard 10mm taller Whiteline/Super-Pro/Cobb roll center adjust kit.
      The 25mm taller ball joints would be too much correction for a car that is at stock height.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

    • @alexudolkin2146
      @alexudolkin2146 Před 5 měsíci

      I have the same VA suspension on a 2012 so about a half inch drop from GR height. Would you still recommend a 10mm ball joint and tie rod kit?

  • @stuff1235
    @stuff1235 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Would it be necessary or help to do something similar for the rear suspension?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +2

      Thanks for watching and thanks for the question. The short answer is yes, but it is complicated.
      On the GD chassis with front and rear McPherson suspension, the issue can definitely be present in the rear suspension for the same reason, but there isn't something simple like a ball joint to correct the issue. On the newer multi-link suspensions they don't need this as much, but you can definitely make improvements by replacing some of the linkages or putting in components that give you adjustment, etc.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

    • @Dantutz
      @Dantutz Před 5 měsíci +1

      There are rear subframes on the market with higher inner fixation points on the control arms that correct this also for the rear. But that's expensive and overkill. The big issue with understeer is on the front.
      For example, the very cheap P25 uses stock parts for the rear and the suspension geometry looks like crap. If for 700k USD they didn't bother, neither should we.

  • @noodlezdotcom
    @noodlezdotcom Před 5 měsíci +1

    which one of those ball joints and tie rods would you recommend for street driven car with near stock height almost. " coil overs but maybe about half an inch lower than stock"

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci +1

      Thanks for your question. If you are just under 1" lower than stock, I'd say that the standard roll center kit would be a good option. You will most likely see the benefit for it, but I don't think that you would need the 25mm ball joints at that point.
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

  • @ericn7698
    @ericn7698 Před 5 měsíci +1

    Does this recommendation apply to the GD chassis?

    • @FlatironsTuning
      @FlatironsTuning  Před 5 měsíci

      @ericn7698 Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. Yes, absolutely. I have been running them on my 2003 WRX with great results. Here is the initial video talking about installing them:
      czcams.com/video/5hP0kbxB3yw/video.htmlsi=XkyHA655D2w4pcqO
      Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!