Slight change i forgot to add, the vessel at 2:16:55 on a 1 degree starboard list careens to 3 degrees port before back to starboard again being back to starboard by 2 degrees at 2;17:05 to account for those who said the deck rose.
For anyone wondering about why the list reduced from 13 degrees to 5 degrees from 1;57 to 2:05 AM. This is why it is in my theory. Several survivors mentioned Titanic suddenly growing a list a while before the plunge or a slight list before. Here are some accounts about (Those who mentioned still aboard at this time) - Thomas Ranger - There was a slight list to port, Sir Hugh Woolner - we turned about and went below to deck A. When I walked into those rooms [sic] with their glass portholes closed tight and saw the lights begin to turn red and glimmer, it gave me a sort of uncanny feeling. Then the ship began rocking a little bit and we could feel it list and move, Edward Brown - we got it (Boat A) about halfway and then the ship got a list to port, and we had great difficulty. We could not get it right up to the davits, so we had to slacken the falls. The ship took a list to port, and we could not get it up the incline right up to the davits. Victor Sunderland - The ship had begun to list to port by that time and the boats on the starboard side were nearly all gone. The passengers rushed to the port side, but were crowded back by the crew to keep the boat even Jane Hoyt - Seaman started to lower us but the boat suddenly gave a heavy list Charles Joughin - She had gone a little more to port. A counter argument is about those who didn't mention, my explanation is that they are either too busy to notice or don't notice due to how gradual it is. A second counter argument is about those who did mention a port list / the waterline of the ship. My explanation is that the port list goes from 13 to 5 degrees. 5 degrees i think could be considered a slight list and might not even be noticeable to some as it was alot less than 13 degrees. Some would notice 5 degrees as a port list while others wouldnt. If it was hapeneing as the forecastle went under, Arthur Bright who testified it might not have noticed the list easing but instead the forecastle submerging at 2:04 and the forecastle submerging would be partially helped by the list easing so the list would have eased to 5 degrees by 2:05 as the forecastle was going under. John Hardy testified a heavy (10) port list when D left and this was probably because the port list worsened from 5 to 10 degrees as it started to lower and he didn't notice their was a lesser list before as it suddenly worsened and their had been a 5 degree list earlier so he didn't notice the lesser list as it would have maybe done it from 2:08:10 to 2:09 so not everyone notices due to have gradual it is. A third and final counterargument is how others would have had to jump into Boats 4 and 10 as some testified. My thought is that it happened after Boat 4 left. Boat 10 i believe was also being loaded since 1:55 when their would have still been a strong list. Those that jumped might have jumped before or during the gradual easing. It also was happeneing as Boat C left so C would still scrape down the side and the list would be 5 degrees when they reached the sea at 2;05 and they have scraped down the entire side as i think 5 degrees would be enough to be scraping. Therefore, i do believe it happened and accounts for all testimonies. It also has enough testimonies to back it up aswell.
It's all good! though I would want to point out in regards the lists and Boat D. The Starboard List was at 5 Max, as it was said by Hitchens, it never worsened or went over that. During the launchings of boats No. 9, 16, 11 and 12 (TIME: 1:15-1:25) The survivors in these boats mentioned that only a little to almost no list. Slayter was at Boat 13, it was most likely she was talking about a port list, and not a Starboard List, as the time this boat was launched was 1:30AM where it would begin to list to port progressively until 1:45AM) The port list at max was 10, though 13 is also possible, it just never eased for a bit then worsened again, along the long run from 1:45PM it was 10-13 degrees, it was then decreasing overtime, and by 2:15AM prior to the even keel occurring it was around 6-8 degrees. Boat D on the other hand was lowered around 2:10 and at the same time the lights would have then gone out, the Collapsible also never reached that far which supports this evidence of how long it took it to lower. The 2 sharp bangs survivor heard where coming from the break-up and not the beginning of the final plunge, mostly the pre-plunge explosions where more of a "rumble" rather than explosions, as things began to slide from their beds.
Hi, thanks for reviewing theory. 1. The reason I showed it at 6 degrees was also partially due to Pitman's account about having to push away. Slayter did mention a starboard list a while before she got into 13, maybe 10 - 20 minutes before. How would the survivors have confused port and starboard lists? 2. The reason I showed it at 13 degrees was I recall hearing about accounts that said they felt the ship would tip over. I also read that 9 degrees wouldn't be enough for them to think this. Others such as DannyDraws also were saying about a 12 - 13 degree list, though i think this was before 2AM, maybe when the order for everyone to go to the starboard side was issued. The reason I showed it reducing gradually from 13 to 5 degrees was to account for those who mentioned a slight list or the ship suddenly growing a list. I posted a paragraph explaining below. 3. When you say Boat D left at 2:10, is this because of Woolner's acount of jumping into the boat at that time? He was one of the 2 that jumped into the boat from A deck when it was at A deck. It would have taken a couple of minutes to lower for that boat probably to where they were. I also placed at forward lights going out at 2:05:50 because one survivor mentioned the crew at D leaving (Maybe to prep A), even though she said it was due to list, i think more likely forward lights though I dont believe the crew abandoned them like described. 4. I think you are right. I had it in their as George Synoms mentioned 2 sharp explosions, then rise, then break. Though he could have confused the rumbling sounds at start of plunge and the sharp bangs and switched them around as to when they happened. Sorry for any offence, no offence meant. This is my reasoning for it. Thanks for reviewing. These are my points.
Here is my logic for the listing and worsening and easing before plunge - Several survivors mentioned Titanic suddenly growing a list a while before the plunge or a slight list before. Here are some accounts about (Those who mentioned still aboard at this time) - Thomas Ranger - There was a slight list to port, Sir Hugh Woolner - we turned about and went below to deck A. When I walked into those rooms [sic] with their glass portholes closed tight and saw the lights begin to turn red and glimmer, it gave me a sort of uncanny feeling. Then the ship began rocking a little bit and we could feel it list and move, Edward Brown - we got it (Boat A) about halfway and then the ship got a list to port, and we had great difficulty. We could not get it right up to the davits, so we had to slacken the falls. The ship took a list to port, and we could not get it up the incline right up to the davits. (As said on the Paul Lee website, why would have mentioned it if it already existed.) Victor Sunderland - The ship had begun to list to port by that time and the boats on the starboard side were nearly all gone. The passengers rushed to the port side, but were crowded back by the crew to keep the boat even Jane Hoyt - Seaman started to lower us but the boat suddenly gave a heavy list Charles Joughin - She had gone a little more to port. A counter argument is about those who didn't mention, my explanation is that they are either too busy to notice or don't notice due to how gradual it is. A second counter argument is about those who did mention a port list / the waterline of the ship. My explanation is that the port list goes from 13 to 5 degrees. 5 degrees i think could be considered a slight list and might not even be noticeable to some as it was alot less than 13 degrees. Some would notice 5 degrees as a port list while others wouldnt. If it was hapeneing as the forecastle went under, Arthur Bright who testified it might not have noticed the list easing but instead the forecastle submerging at 2:04 and the forecastle submerging would be partially helped by the list easing so the list would have eased to 5 degrees by 2:05 as the forecastle was going under. John Hardy testified a heavy (10) port list when D left and this was probably because the port list worsened from 5 to 10 degrees as it started to lower and he didn't notice their was a lesser list before as it suddenly worsened and their had been a 5 degree list earlier so he didn't notice the lesser list as it would have maybe done it from 2:08:10 to 2:09 so not everyone notices due to have gradual it is. A third and final counterargument is how others would have had to jump into Boats 4 and 10 as some testified. My thought is that it happened after Boat 4 left. Boat 10 i believe was also being loaded since 1:55 when their would have still been a strong list. Those that jumped might have jumped before or during the gradual easing. It also was happeneing as Boat C left so C would still scrape down the side and the list would be 5 degrees when they reached the sea at 2;05 and they have scraped down the entire side as i think 5 degrees would be enough to be scraping.
@@IloveCruiseShips1912 1. Hugh Woolner is at Boad D. the rocking motion could be an indicator of the beginning of the even keel, but the list never equalized nor decreased, it stayed this way similarly with Boat 10 as while launching the Boat it had a 2.5 feet gap. Mathematics can be used by using the angle of the davit when swung out, and then the width of the Boat. A 2.5 feet gap from Boat Deck to lifeboats with the davit swung out at an angle of 35-40 degrees measures a 9-10 port list at max. 2. Edward Brown talks about this (the port list) prior to the launching of Collapsible A, such events occurred prior to that. The phrase "the ship got a list to port" does not indicate that the port list was just occurring at that time, but already HAD it. (To shorten all of this, you are comprehending the sentences wrong, the grammar they are using indicates that a port list was already occurring, but not the fact that it was just occurring), Forensic Analysis also reveals that the port list would also increase but it never decreases. I would also like to add the listing changing will affect those who saw the propellers at Boat 15 while it was being lowered, the list changing/decreasing would make the propellers not visible at some point. No list was reported when Boat 9 reached the water and no reported list at the launch of Boat 16. (1:20AM) A port list easing doesn't make sense forensically speaking, as water was making its way up Scotland Road, and was also contributing a little to the port list, you would also have to account something to counter the coal that was weighing on the port side that would be heavier than that to ease the port list, which is why the even keel occurring at 2:15-2:16AM was strong enough because as proposed a bulkhead failed, and a huge amount of water flooded the starboard side area causing it to flood and ease the port list. A similar event should occur to make the list "ease" for a bit then worsen again. A port list of 5 degrees at 2:05 AM would not allow survivors in Collapsible C to testify that the forecastle was still visible as a shallow list would make the forecastle appear almost gone, the forecastle to the survivors on Collapsible C was still visible indicating a heavy port list as that would allow the starboard side of the forecastle to be high out of the water. Also the usage of survivor accounts that you have counters the majority who said that there was a heavy list during the time of 1:35-2:15AM. This is a "cross-out" method, its the same with Charles Joughin who was drunk, some people just do not observe that the list was heavy and instead may report a much more "lesser list" The whole sources can be found in Samuel Halpern's Research. www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/lifeboats-launch-times-list-and-trim-1.html www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/lifeboats-launch-times-list-and-trim-part-2.html
@@KiwiKiwf Ah, ok, thanks for explaining. When Woolner talked about the ship listing, could have been referring to the rocking? Also, is their a flaw being at 13 degrees? If so, how can we account for those who talked about they felt it would capsize. (Though i dont think it reached 15 degrees port like described in one the articles. When Edward Brown talked about it getting a port list, would it have been, instead of them getting the boat halfway up, then a list to port, they got it halfway up and then noticed a list and that the guy wire (Hard to notice) got in their way. It might be logical that Victor Sunderland might have been referring to the main port list from 1;40 - 2;15. I have a question though, IF the port list eased because of a bulkhead giving way, what would cause it to give way since it would have been logically built to withstand the pressure of water? The only exception would be coal bunker which wouldn't be designed to hold back the pressure of the water. Would it be more likely that the cargo hatches giving way caused the even keel? They wouldn't be designed to hold back pressure of the water so would fail and could also explain the very rapid final plunge? Joughin was indeed drunk (AND also changed his story from jumping to stepping off) so shouldn't be trusted too much for how reliable especially as his testimony seems to have a timing issue with Boat 10. Could the survivors onboard have gotten used to the list / forgot it was there and therefore thought it was lesser / slight list than it was like mentioned in Titanic Animations V-break video? Some in the boats didn't mention which would make sense as the darkness might make it abit more difficult to see from side POVS. Could the list have maybe gradually decreased slightly over time from 13 to 8 between 2 AM and 2;16 AM / Time of even keel in my theory? I will change my theory but the video MAY be delayed since I am very busy for projects (SOO many lined up) (Community tab). If their any other corrections, please reply to this comment. Sorry for it being shown in my theory. It will be changed soon but video will be likely coming out next week. 2 other questions - 1. Just wanted to check if their was a flaw with their being a slight port list earlier in my theory? It wasnt mentioned in this thread but isn't shown in other theories. 2. Which time do you believe Boat 14 left? My research indicates it left at 1:45 due to some testimonies onboard. Also, please could I do your theory instead of mine for my final 18 minutes video planned, if so please can you post timeline? Thanks :) What are your thoughts on this?
@@KiwiKiwf I actually have now decided to release my new theory tomorrow. It does have some of the reccomendations (Thanks for recommendations aswell btw). Please watch it and let me know what you think when it comes out.
Slight change i forgot to add, the vessel at 2:16:55 on a 1 degree starboard list careens to 3 degrees port before back to starboard again being back to starboard by 2 degrees at 2;17:05 to account for those who said the deck rose.
Any critique, please respond to this comment. Thanks
For anyone wondering about why the list reduced from 13 degrees to 5 degrees from 1;57 to 2:05 AM. This is why it is in my theory.
Several survivors mentioned Titanic suddenly growing a list a while before the plunge or a slight list before. Here are some accounts about (Those who mentioned still aboard at this time) -
Thomas Ranger - There was a slight list to port, Sir
Hugh Woolner - we turned about and went below to deck A. When I walked into those rooms [sic] with their glass portholes closed tight and saw the lights begin to turn red and glimmer, it gave me a sort of uncanny feeling. Then the ship began rocking a little bit and we could feel it list and move,
Edward Brown - we got it (Boat A) about halfway and then the ship got a list to port, and we had great difficulty. We could not get it right up to the davits, so we had to slacken the falls. The ship took a list to port, and we could not get it up the incline right up to the davits.
Victor Sunderland - The ship had begun to list to port by that time and the boats on the starboard side were nearly all gone. The passengers rushed to the port side, but were crowded back by the crew to keep the boat even
Jane Hoyt - Seaman started to lower us but the boat suddenly gave a heavy list
Charles Joughin - She had gone a little more to port.
A counter argument is about those who didn't mention, my explanation is that they are either too busy to notice or don't notice due to how gradual it is.
A second counter argument is about those who did mention a port list / the waterline of the ship. My explanation is that the port list goes from 13 to 5 degrees. 5 degrees i think could be considered a slight list and might not even be noticeable to some as it was alot less than 13 degrees. Some would notice 5 degrees as a port list while others wouldnt. If it was hapeneing as the forecastle went under, Arthur Bright who testified it might not have noticed the list easing but instead the forecastle submerging at 2:04 and the forecastle submerging would be partially helped by the list easing so the list would have eased to 5 degrees by 2:05 as the forecastle was going under. John Hardy testified a heavy (10) port list when D left and this was probably because the port list worsened from 5 to 10 degrees as it started to lower and he didn't notice their was a lesser list before as it suddenly worsened and their had been a 5 degree list earlier so he didn't notice the lesser list as it would have maybe done it from 2:08:10 to 2:09 so not everyone notices due to have gradual it is.
A third and final counterargument is how others would have had to jump into Boats 4 and 10 as some testified. My thought is that it happened after Boat 4 left. Boat 10 i believe was also being loaded since 1:55 when their would have still been a strong list. Those that jumped might have jumped before or during the gradual easing. It also was happeneing as Boat C left so C would still scrape down the side and the list would be 5 degrees when they reached the sea at 2;05 and they have scraped down the entire side as i think 5 degrees would be enough to be scraping.
Therefore, i do believe it happened and accounts for all testimonies. It also has enough testimonies to back it up aswell.
It's all good! though I would want to point out in regards the lists and Boat D.
The Starboard List was at 5 Max, as it was said by Hitchens, it never worsened or went over that. During the launchings of boats No. 9, 16, 11 and 12 (TIME: 1:15-1:25) The survivors in these boats mentioned that only a little to almost no list. Slayter was at Boat 13, it was most likely she was talking about a port list, and not a Starboard List, as the time this boat was launched was 1:30AM where it would begin to list to port progressively until 1:45AM)
The port list at max was 10, though 13 is also possible, it just never eased for a bit then worsened again, along the long run from 1:45PM it was 10-13 degrees, it was then decreasing overtime, and by 2:15AM prior to the even keel occurring it was around 6-8 degrees.
Boat D on the other hand was lowered around 2:10 and at the same time the lights would have then gone out, the Collapsible also never reached that far which supports this evidence of how long it took it to lower.
The 2 sharp bangs survivor heard where coming from the break-up and not the beginning of the final plunge, mostly the pre-plunge explosions where more of a "rumble" rather than explosions, as things began to slide from their beds.
Hi, thanks for reviewing theory.
1. The reason I showed it at 6 degrees was also partially due to Pitman's account about having to push away. Slayter did mention a starboard list a while before she got into 13, maybe 10 - 20 minutes before. How would the survivors have confused port and starboard lists?
2. The reason I showed it at 13 degrees was I recall hearing about accounts that said they felt the ship would tip over. I also read that 9 degrees wouldn't be enough for them to think this. Others such as DannyDraws also were saying about a 12 - 13 degree list, though i think this was before 2AM, maybe when the order for everyone to go to the starboard side was issued. The reason I showed it reducing gradually from 13 to 5 degrees was to account for those who mentioned a slight list or the ship suddenly growing a list. I posted a paragraph explaining below.
3. When you say Boat D left at 2:10, is this because of Woolner's acount of jumping into the boat at that time? He was one of the 2 that jumped into the boat from A deck when it was at A deck. It would have taken a couple of minutes to lower for that boat probably to where they were. I also placed at forward lights going out at 2:05:50 because one survivor mentioned the crew at D leaving (Maybe to prep A), even though she said it was due to list, i think more likely forward lights though I dont believe the crew abandoned them like described.
4. I think you are right. I had it in their as George Synoms mentioned 2 sharp explosions, then rise, then break. Though he could have confused the rumbling sounds at start of plunge and the sharp bangs and switched them around as to when they happened.
Sorry for any offence, no offence meant. This is my reasoning for it.
Thanks for reviewing. These are my points.
Here is my logic for the listing and worsening and easing before plunge -
Several survivors mentioned Titanic suddenly growing a list a while before the plunge or a slight list before. Here are some accounts about (Those who mentioned still aboard at this time) -
Thomas Ranger - There was a slight list to port, Sir
Hugh Woolner - we turned about and went below to deck A. When I walked into those rooms [sic] with their glass portholes closed tight and saw the lights begin to turn red and glimmer, it gave me a sort of uncanny feeling. Then the ship began rocking a little bit and we could feel it list and move,
Edward Brown - we got it (Boat A) about halfway and then the ship got a list to port, and we had great difficulty. We could not get it right up to the davits, so we had to slacken the falls. The ship took a list to port, and we could not get it up the incline right up to the davits. (As said on the Paul Lee website, why would have mentioned it if it already existed.)
Victor Sunderland - The ship had begun to list to port by that time and the boats on the starboard side were nearly all gone. The passengers rushed to the port side, but were crowded back by the crew to keep the boat even
Jane Hoyt - Seaman started to lower us but the boat suddenly gave a heavy list
Charles Joughin - She had gone a little more to port.
A counter argument is about those who didn't mention, my explanation is that they are either too busy to notice or don't notice due to how gradual it is.
A second counter argument is about those who did mention a port list / the waterline of the ship. My explanation is that the port list goes from 13 to 5 degrees. 5 degrees i think could be considered a slight list and might not even be noticeable to some as it was alot less than 13 degrees. Some would notice 5 degrees as a port list while others wouldnt. If it was hapeneing as the forecastle went under, Arthur Bright who testified it might not have noticed the list easing but instead the forecastle submerging at 2:04 and the forecastle submerging would be partially helped by the list easing so the list would have eased to 5 degrees by 2:05 as the forecastle was going under. John Hardy testified a heavy (10) port list when D left and this was probably because the port list worsened from 5 to 10 degrees as it started to lower and he didn't notice their was a lesser list before as it suddenly worsened and their had been a 5 degree list earlier so he didn't notice the lesser list as it would have maybe done it from 2:08:10 to 2:09 so not everyone notices due to have gradual it is.
A third and final counterargument is how others would have had to jump into Boats 4 and 10 as some testified. My thought is that it happened after Boat 4 left. Boat 10 i believe was also being loaded since 1:55 when their would have still been a strong list. Those that jumped might have jumped before or during the gradual easing. It also was happeneing as Boat C left so C would still scrape down the side and the list would be 5 degrees when they reached the sea at 2;05 and they have scraped down the entire side as i think 5 degrees would be enough to be scraping.
@@IloveCruiseShips1912
1. Hugh Woolner is at Boad D. the rocking motion could be an indicator of the beginning of the even keel, but the list never equalized nor decreased, it stayed this way similarly with Boat 10 as while launching the Boat it had a 2.5 feet gap. Mathematics can be used by using the angle of the davit when swung out, and then the width of the Boat. A 2.5 feet gap from Boat Deck to lifeboats with the davit swung out at an angle of 35-40 degrees measures a 9-10 port list at max.
2. Edward Brown talks about this (the port list) prior to the launching of Collapsible A, such events occurred prior to that. The phrase "the ship got a list to port" does not indicate that the port list was just occurring at that time, but already HAD it.
(To shorten all of this, you are comprehending the sentences wrong, the grammar they are using indicates that a port list was already occurring, but not the fact that it was just occurring), Forensic Analysis also reveals that the port list would also increase but it never decreases.
I would also like to add the listing changing will affect those who saw the propellers at Boat 15 while it was being lowered, the list changing/decreasing would make the propellers not visible at some point. No list was reported when Boat 9 reached the water and no reported list at the launch of Boat 16. (1:20AM)
A port list easing doesn't make sense forensically speaking, as water was making its way up Scotland Road, and was also contributing a little to the port list, you would also have to account something to counter the coal that was weighing on the port side that would be heavier than that to ease the port list, which is why the even keel occurring at 2:15-2:16AM was strong enough because as proposed a bulkhead failed, and a huge amount of water flooded the starboard side area causing it to flood and ease the port list. A similar event should occur to make the list "ease" for a bit then worsen again.
A port list of 5 degrees at 2:05 AM would not allow survivors in Collapsible C to testify that the forecastle was still visible as a shallow list would make the forecastle appear almost gone, the forecastle to the survivors on Collapsible C was still visible indicating a heavy port list as that would allow the starboard side of the forecastle to be high out of the water.
Also the usage of survivor accounts that you have counters the majority who said that there was a heavy list during the time of 1:35-2:15AM. This is a "cross-out" method, its the same with Charles Joughin who was drunk, some people just do not observe that the list was heavy and instead may report a much more "lesser list"
The whole sources can be found in Samuel Halpern's Research.
www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/lifeboats-launch-times-list-and-trim-1.html
www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/lifeboats-launch-times-list-and-trim-part-2.html
@@KiwiKiwf Ah, ok, thanks for explaining.
When Woolner talked about the ship listing, could have been referring to the rocking? Also, is their a flaw being at 13 degrees? If so, how can we account for those who talked about they felt it would capsize. (Though i dont think it reached 15 degrees port like described in one the articles.
When Edward Brown talked about it getting a port list, would it have been, instead of them getting the boat halfway up, then a list to port, they got it halfway up and then noticed a list and that the guy wire (Hard to notice) got in their way.
It might be logical that Victor Sunderland might have been referring to the main port list from 1;40 - 2;15.
I have a question though, IF the port list eased because of a bulkhead giving way, what would cause it to give way since it would have been logically built to withstand the pressure of water? The only exception would be coal bunker which wouldn't be designed to hold back the pressure of the water.
Would it be more likely that the cargo hatches giving way caused the even keel? They wouldn't be designed to hold back pressure of the water so would fail and could also explain the very rapid final plunge?
Joughin was indeed drunk (AND also changed his story from jumping to stepping off) so shouldn't be trusted too much for how reliable especially as his testimony seems to have a timing issue with Boat 10. Could the survivors onboard have gotten used to the list / forgot it was there and therefore thought it was lesser / slight list than it was like mentioned in Titanic Animations V-break video? Some in the boats didn't mention which would make sense as the darkness might make it abit more difficult to see from side POVS.
Could the list have maybe gradually decreased slightly over time from 13 to 8 between 2 AM and 2;16 AM / Time of even keel in my theory?
I will change my theory but the video MAY be delayed since I am very busy for projects (SOO many lined up) (Community tab). If their any other corrections, please reply to this comment.
Sorry for it being shown in my theory. It will be changed soon but video will be likely coming out next week.
2 other questions -
1. Just wanted to check if their was a flaw with their being a slight port list earlier in my theory? It wasnt mentioned in this thread but isn't shown in other theories.
2. Which time do you believe Boat 14 left? My research indicates it left at 1:45 due to some testimonies onboard.
Also, please could I do your theory instead of mine for my final 18 minutes video planned, if so please can you post timeline? Thanks :)
What are your thoughts on this?
@@KiwiKiwf I actually have now decided to release my new theory tomorrow. It does have some of the reccomendations (Thanks for recommendations aswell btw). Please watch it and let me know what you think when it comes out.
Anything else unsure on, please reply to this comment