To me people calling Zeiss an est and/or bad is just the product of how the brain of fe fans gets confused the moment someone in the Wyvern class doesn't break the game in half
FE archetypes are like personality tests irl. They have a notable utility in assisting discourse, but when they start to frame discourse, we get some weird conclusions and results.
Syrene can be raised, similar to Cecilia & Isadora, as low level underpowered prepremote. I wouldn't call them an Est either, but maybe in a league of their own, possibly including Echidna
Late Game-Prepromotes aren’t called Ests, but Gotohs. Basically great units but come kind of late when compared to other units that contribute heavily to the team early on.
Fun fact! In Russian, "есть" or "est" in English letters, means "to be", "there is", or "there exists". This is a good way to describe Ests, because they certainly do exist :)
I responded "no" to the low base stat question (question #4) due to the wording. Units such as Nino or Est herself do have very high base stats *for their level*, but not for your army at that point in the game. Thus, defining "low bases" could be different depending on your reference point.
Oh yeah, Est and Nino have higher stats that their level implies (compared with people like Sophia, Lilina and the FE1 mid game mercenaries, that are actually closer to the class bases). Yup, there is a huge difference between having Radd bases and Zeiss bases. One has bad bases for his level, the other has great bases, both for his level and the chapter he appears; and then there is Nino, that has bad bases for the moment where she join, but if you threw her in chapters where you get other Level 5 units, she would be so competent that she would be without a doubt be your best mage, at least until Pent's arrival, she has the strenghts of both Lucius (better Mag/Spd) and Erk (better weapon) in a single unit
Funny thing about Mauvier, his personal growth total is actually the second highest in the game behind Anna. Maybe that (and the fact his base speed is iffy in a doodoo class) is why people think he's an Est? Also, I can see the argument about specifically Rosado. Though he's a prepromote with an average level, he joins over halfway through the game, his bases are noticeably lower than the rest of your cast, and he has some of the best physical offensive growths in the game. Plus, he's a flier on a map with a flooding gimmick, so that could make him easier to train up.
I feel like dev intentionality is an important factor left out of this video. For example the devs certainly did not expect the average player to suicide bomb Medeus with Tiki, but they definitely intended for you to raise her up. There’s lots of units that the devs want you to use *as though* they are Ests even though their design fails to actualize this. Like Valentina Est’s class bases situation.
I actually did talk about Dev Intentionality, in that I don't believe IS devs almost ever set out to "create an Est" (For example FE1 Est is designed with similar intentions to FE1 Tomas, despite the differences they have in play)
@@DaniDoyle Sorry, in hindsight I framed my point pretty badly. What I really wanted to point out was that I found it odd that Nino is definitely an Est even though training her fails to be rewarding, but Valentina Est fails to be an Est only because the mechanics of the game make it so that she isn’t unique, even though pushing her up to that Falcon Knight promotion is still a lot of work that the devs clearly felt most players would find rewarding.
Valentia Est isn't JUST held back by the mechanics of the game. While they do play a part of her growths and bases are also a factor in why I don't think she's an est.
So I didn't respond to your survey but I can give a reason why someone might think low base stats aren't necessary for being an est. It depends on how you define bad base stats. I'm pretty sure you'll define them as "far lower than the units I have at the time" but it could also mean "lower than what a unit should have at the level they're at" and Ests actually usually do quite well in the second category.
I absolutely second this, and to build on it a bit and put it simply: it’s relative. I think that every est should come with at the very least usable stats, which is my I think units like sophia can be an absolute hassle. If you do end up giving a good stat, it could be something like Ziess’s supporting offense’s or even magic piercing potential, which is the only thing that saves sophia and nino. Shoutout to sigrid from the rom hack vision quest too for being one of the best est’s I’ve ever used.
Miranda feels like she's designed to be an Est, but Thracia's mechanics really don't fit that type of unit design. One of my favorite aspects of this is that her unique Mage Knight promotion is actually a bit of a downside for endgame, since she loses movement indoors compared to her base class. And considering an Est is supposed to have their best performance in endgame, that's really bad for her
Finally finished watching this. Just wish we had time to go a bit more in depth, such a short video couldn't possibly give enough attention to a lot of the best Ests around, like Zeiss and Sara. Also if you use savestates Sophia is pretty easy to train, and if you rig all her levels and no one else's she's the best unit in the game
FE12 Est probably deserves to belong in "Definitely an Est" tier, the comparison to Catria makes her growths not look quite that crazy, but the reason why is just because Catria's growths are also amazing, hers are in the top 10 in the game with 80+ units (If you count the bonus downloadable maps, if not it's still the biggest FE cast) Meanwhile Est's personal growth total in New Mystery is just flat out the highest, sitting at 325 personal, 5 above Jake's 320, and 15 above Katarina's 310, and as far as specfic categories Est has the highest personal strength growth and then the 2nd highest (tied) personal skill, and then is still in the top ~90th percentile in Speed/Luck, and while her 10% Magic and Resistance look bad, that's actually pretty decidedly above average for FE12 where Magic caps out at 30% personal and Res at 20% personal, her growths are just downright fantastic aside from bulk and then she also has the Triangle Attack for if you want some sort of special utility to be considered an Est Similarly, though this doesn't change anything about the takeaways, Mauvier's growths are also definitely very good, he has the highest raw total in Engage, in fact the gap between his personal total (345) and the next highest (Anna's 325) is the largest gap between any two adjacent units when ordered from highest to lowest total, and his individual categories are all good his HP/Mag/Dex/Def/Res/Bld are all in the top 10 it's only his Lck/Spd that aren't amazing, obviously he's still not an Est cause his bases are also absurd and he's high level, but his growths are excellent by Engage standards, Engage personal growths are just overall low High growths and high base level make him a Karel Archetype /s
My guess for the Flayn thing is based on Story, not gameplay. Female character who joins later than most units who needs to be rescued. Also on Syrene and Juno, my guess is just that the submitters definition is "Late Joining character with unusually bad bases". doing the Oifey thing where the archetype is based on how good a unit is, but instead of being "Jagan's who are good" its "Late game units who have low bases."
Note that I was also one of the people who said that they didn't think Est was a real archetype in the survey, so do with that information what you will
9:00 I always viewed The Est as a unit that would be good if you had gotten them earlier in the game but they join significantly later and need a lot of commitment and resources to be on par or better than the rest of the army. It's fine if they have good bases for their class if they are significantly lower level and/or unpromoted. they need to be shit when they join but with high potential if invested in.
The thing with the awakening kids is that they have a soft order due to the lack of level scaling in paralogues, so owain will always have unpromoted units while nah gets a bunch of counter warriors leading some to be pushed later into the est recruitment window.
As one of the people who submitted Sheema, I'd say that there's a meaningful distinction. Her New Mystery self is, ultimately, just another bad unit in a game absolutely full of them. A funny-bad unit with no real redeeming traits in a game where there's so many already. In FE3, though, while the combination of lower caps, higher growths, and that she's a completely guaranteed indoor Gradivus user given she has enough WLV to use it at base, but otherwise poor enough stats that without raising her up she'll be killed without getting a chance to ever get much use out of it, while she's definitely well enough below par even for a filler unit at base aside from near-capped defense that being technically promoted doesn't mean that she isn't behind where your units should be for that late in the game. She also grows in a way that's pretty well-suited for the indoor three-map marathon that is true ending endgame. Otherwise to use one of the best weapons in the game in more than one map you have to either invest a WLV manual in Draug or get lucky on his low WLV growth, not to mention feed him for much more of the game throughout much more armor-unfriendly waters, mean that she isn't just his replacement for the niche, but someone who generally has a lot of reasons to be considered over him in spite of a much more brutal training window. Also that ever so important number-go-up brain chemical rush.
I just wanna say that I quite literally laughed out loud when I saw that different ests weren't seen universally as ests by the sample graph we answered. Like, I'm sure it's possible that est could be done in a way, in a game that makes her not fit her own archetype... but it's hilarious to me when I see est not be considered an est, true or not. Ok so I personally agree that zeiss isnt an est HOWEVER On normal mode, zeiss has terrible stats. Yes, hard mode bonuses make zeiss way too strong for an est... but hard mode isn't the only mode. On normal mode his only stat above 10 is strength... everything else sucks. The bigger issue for zeiss, in my opinion, is the growths. They aren't anything special, and this is the same reason I don't count Sophia as an est.
Eat probably doesn’t match most people’s definition of an Est archetype because nobody has played FE1. Est has very good bases in FE1. I’d wager that for most people, the first time they ever heard of the Est archetype was in regards to Nino, and so they built up their idea of what the archetype was based on Nino. Honestly it’s more the Nino archetype than the Est archetype.
I've always had a uniqe realtion to the est archetype, I played fe echoes not knowing what an "est" was and I somehow missed recruiting palla and catria so est was actually the first pegasus I found on celica's side of the game, by the time I got confused and looked up where to recruit her sisters, I had babied est enough to where she had surpassed them and ended up becoming one of my defining pegasi.
I the perception that ests dont have low bases comes form comparing them to units of the same level not the same join time, for example im pretty sure nino has higher stats at whatever her starting level is than erk does at the same level
I’m still of the opinion that Nino is possibly the best worst unit in fire emblem, or at least fe7. There is absolutely no reason to use her but she at least has an actual payoff with a surprisingly low amount of commitment.
Your point about archetypes mainly being a tool of communication is key. FE discussion used to take place on forums where it was easier to rigorously define terms, but now discussion is dispersed throughout many different social media communities which has made archetypes more broad and vague. It's kinda like how the separation of Jagen and Oifey was pretty prominent on Serenes Forest but these days Oifey has been absorbed by Jagen.
If the Merric archetype actually existed, it would be FE1/FE3B1/FE11 Merric, Asbel, and if you wanna stretch it a bit, FE3B2/FE12 Linde, and if you wanna be funny, Lewyn!Arthur :3 Basically, early game mage with unique tome if you wanna fit all 4 in lmao
First off, Nino being the most definitive Est is hilarious. Second... Hortensia is a character that does have decently high growths, from what I remember. However, using her, it was mostly for cheesing maps with water and her staff usage. She never really excels in combat at any point, which I feel is a necessary part of a late-term Est. There are elements of an Est, but I wouldn't say it's definitive. Ena (In PoR) is more of a punishment for not beating Black Knight with Ike. If you do, you get Nasir who is much better than Ena. It's not even like a replacement unit. You need to defeat Black Knight to get Nasir, the better unit. Doing so passes the opportunity for Ena. It's weird, but a fun idea. Not an Est. What world did people ever consider Catherine a trainee? I really wanna know. Sending a tiny dragon to her death really is "iconic". Very based. Case in point, it's really standout how much overlap there is between what people call bad and an Est. Not all bad units are Ests, but the fact so many Ests that really shouldn't be are considered so is telling. Like, seriously? Jesse? You not being able to kill anything doesn't make you an Est.
Was not a voter in the poll. However, On the subject of "base stats" like you had asked, there are some units I always thought of as Ests that their bases literally did not matter because of the type of unit they were. The best example probably being Myrrh from FE Sacred Stones. Her join time is after the route split, with only 1 character joining in the main story after her, her growths are THE best in the game, and her bases, while yes they are "bad" they literally do not matter because of her dragonstone. They could have been literally almost anything and she would still shred almost any enemy in her join chapter at base, and even in the chapters after. So her bases just don't matter or factor into the equation, but I still consider her an Est, personally. Same goes for some of the Laguz in FE 9 and especially 10 because their stats while transformed are basically doubled in combat compared to whatever the base number is, which in turn affects what their joined bases are and their growths to a certain extent. Do I consider many laguz to be an Est? No, honestly probably only Lyre and she's maybe not an Est depending on other factors, but RD is pretty weird when it comes to unit join time and unit availability, so pinning down an Est in that game is way harder, as is any other unit archetype in that game, in my eyes. The last one I can really think of is child units from games like Awakening and Fates? Some of them join with bases that are solid enough, though they obviously need levels and need more stats to fit in, but they can become some of the best units in the game and have some good growths, but are they Ests when they can join either in the first half of either game mentioned, or depending on when you reach your S rank supports, literally right before the final chapter? Your opinion on these factors is your own, but the fact that the questions can be posed in the first place probably means someone considers any of these units mentioned an Est or a potential one.
the low base stats question's weird response I think is a problem with the question itself. what does "low" mean in this context? Low for their class? Low for your army at the moment? The second they definitely should, being weak compared to the rest of your army is the defining trait. But low in relation to other units base stats at that level isn't necessarily needed at all.
I don't know of an example of a character that would fit this but I have an idea of an Est that might have good bases: if they are a class or use a weapon type that has poor matchups when they arrive. So you need to navigate the maps well until they can promote or earn something in their kit to become a better unit. Maybe FE4 Lachesis and Leif dont really technically fall in est but their stat growths are less impactful than their future promotion
i'm only 30 minutes in so idk if this comes up later but at this point in the video it is really feeling to me like a key element actually is the subjectivity of how they turn out. like the growth rate element feels to me, vibes-wise, functions to create a unit that "ought to" turn out better than alternative options. the potential for failure seems super relevant to me. nino has at best _a chance_ for full numerical payoff. it's a _decent_ chance; it's a chance that _is enticing_ to a lot of people. i dunno, just noodling here and it's pretty esoteric noodling that other people wouldn't consider, time to unpause lol. e: in retrospect thats something that goes for literally every character but i dunno. i guess risk is a big part of fun in general so there's that.
Minor correction: During Fae's section you mention her utility as a status staff baiter due to her apparent low res, and while her "low" def/res are what makes her nice as a siege tome/ballista bait unit, status staves don't care about their target's stats (in gba) As long as their target is valid (ie they dont silence non-magic units), they actually go in reverse deployment order, which is very silly but also true (you can see this most obviously with sophia/cecilia getting first priority for being sleep/silence staff'd in ch14) Good video but i am nonetheless a pedant
I have to assume all those Flayn write-ins were from people who think that every archetype has to be in every fire emblem game, so they were trying to figure out who the Est was in 3H and she was the closest they got, rather than considering the idea that 3H just doesn't have anybody who fits the pattern (because all your units are either available in the early game, or pre-promoted)
I’d say that on any route that doesn’t start with Black Eagles, Ferdinand Von Aegir is the Est. He’s amazing if you put work into him but his recruitment cost is awkward and high.
@@maxspecs Except that students in 3H level up in background; recruiting him late means he's high level with high base stats, so there's never a period of weakness. And every unit in 3H is powerful if you put the work into them; his growths are above average but not as high as somebody like Petra, Ingrid, Ignatz, or Leonie, and without any real dramatic standouts. Instead of a 'zero to hero' arc he just goes from a solid unit to a moderately more solid unit. And his recruitment threshold is 10 points in Dex, which Byleth is likely to have at level 2, when somebody like Hilda is asking for 30 points of Cha (and is actually unavailable in the first half of one of her routes). I guess if you never study Armor then getting a C rank there might feel like a trial, but imo you should be training that anyway if you have any free time because the weight reduction is basically a +3 Spd and qualifying for Armor Knight (even if you have no intention of fighting as one) brings your Def up to a minimum 12 at level 10, a significant boost for all but the toughest units. There might be an argument to be made for Hilda or Cyril in the Silver route, but I'm pretty sure that 3H just does not have any Est in it.
Pokémon has an Est archetype : it's called "Magicarp". Or, in other words : the Est archetype is a Magicarp archetype that joins late. Like Gen 2 Larvitar.
I remember when I answered the poll I wrote something half as a joke, half having no coherent thoughts about Ests' naming conventions and it being kinda weird since (at the time) the only character who I would actually recognize as an Est was just Nino, but as the video progressed it somehow made sense. Imo Est as an archetype is kinda subjective (and personally making Ests' existance dependant on hackroms is somewhat cheating), but even so I'd still say that it has more validity as a concept than Oifey just because the idea of a shitty late unit you have to train in order to get a good unit sounds coherent, while on the other hand saying "hey this pre-promote has 2 more str and 10% more spd growth than Yaygen, he's def an Oifey" is just silly, goofy even. I don't think that the Est name should stick tho; Nino better embodies the whole idea, and not every archetype should be named after a FE1/3 character, besides I think she drives the point better than Est since pretty much everyone knows Nino as a unit. P.S.: We should popularize the use of the "Merric archetype" to annoy veteran players. We shall define it as the early-game mage that gets outclassed by a promoted late-game magic-user.
I've answered questions four with no, cause i think of "bad bases" in relation to a units level, so an unpromoted level 1 unit joining in chapter 23, could have good bases for being level 1 and also could be an est. If they have good bases gor their joining time, then they are no ests.
having only gone through FE1 an FE3H I'm not the most qualified to talk on this, but the feeling I'm getting is that Est's are a subtype of Trainee, being an effective Trainee that joins late. What a lot of the non-Ests that were seen as Ests had in common was that they were either not recruited late, they were not Trainees, as they were effective at base, or they were just bad units.
I think it could be funny if we could get a label to refer to weird edge cases of units that aren't precisely Est, but feel like Est because they fit most of the usual criteria (being low level, unpromoted, have unique appeal, specially at promotion), but aren't really weak for the moment they arrive, and in fact, are comparable to units that appear alongside them (even promoted ones); which it the case for Sara, Zeiss, and a few that maybe I'm missing. Also, I think a lot of people refer to bad characters as Est because they don't want their favorite characters to feel worthless people that only exist to die in Ironman, they want their characters to have a purpose, the idea of your favorite character only purpose is to die (or to add difficulty in a ranked run) is quite sad. Specially if your character isn't bad in a funny way like say, Arden, if you character is bad just because is bad, and doesn't have any meaning that... it makes their existence feel like a twisted joke to mess with the people that could like them.
I do have Camus on the list, but I think you're confusing it with something else, the defining trait of Camus are units who seem like they should be recruitable but are not actually
@@DaniDoyle oh sorry if I got it messed up. I don't know many of the official archetype definitions as I can't stand fandom wiki. I thought camus referred to characters like Camus and The Black Knight who join you either in other games or later on in the story but served as a major roadblock previously
One of the reasons someone might have said an Est doesn't need bad bases might be confusion on what you're scale you're judging the bases. What I mean is that if you mean bases for the chapter, then yeah, it's definitely mandatory for an Est IMO, but if you mean bad for their level then I don't think thats a necessity. For the sake of argument let's say that the average stats for a level 1 base class unit in this game has 20 HP and 5 in all stats. Each unit has variation but that's the average of all of them. Then you get to the last third of the game and all your units are in the late teens of their relevant stats and you pick up a unit who is level 1 and has 22 HP and 8 in all their stats then that unit has really bad bases for that chapter, but for their level they have great bases and if they have good growths that turn them into a powerhouse after you put a little work into them then they're definitely still an Est
Something i think worth noting is that sometimes characters are intended to be ests but kind of fail because of stat distribution. I think lina falls into this, personally. Shes incredibly shit even when given massive favoritism, but something worth noting is that she does have a massive magic growth, larger than many unpromoted mages. She also has access to the levin sword which is good right??? levin pegs are fun and cracked!!! ...well she also has 2 mastery, so even after promo she needs 3 mastery levels at 35% or a valuable mastery potion. Just something worth noting, i think.
So I love Radiant Dawn Lyre to bits. She's my favorite unit in the game, it tickles me how when you look at her bases and growths she's just a green Cat unit that got some blue paint splashed on her. However, she definitely doesn't join late enough to be considered an Est and even if she did her stats are awful and hardly make her worth calling a growth unit. That said there is one roundabout way I could see calling her an Est if you ignore her join time. If you go through all the time and effort of leveling her up to level 30 then you can use a Satori Sign on her to give her Rend which will allow her to kill just about everything in her way. Hell while we're at it you could also give her one of the Laguz Gems you get at the end of the game so that she can stay fully transformed throughout an entire map without worrying about her Gauge. They have 5 uses, just enough to get her through the Tower. This gives Lyre an incredible zero to hero arc especially if combined with training her Strike rank and lucky Str levels on her. I should know, this is exactly what I did with Lyre on my first playthrough of the game. The problem with this explanation though is that Lyre didn't exactly grow into a one cat army herself, it's more due to the powerful resources given to her which could have been given to other units that have both higher floors and ceilings than Lyre. Without those I doubt most people would even bother to remember she's in the barracks until you're splitting your armies at the beginning of Part 4. I do love the girl but she's not an Est, just a bad unit.
Imo, I think that Ests can exist on a sort of sliding scale; like how we have Jagens like Seth and Marcus vs Jagens like Vander and... Well, Jagen. I think someone like Nino is definitely an Est, while also personally thinking that the iterations of Est with mediocre growths are also still Ests. Unless their growths are outright *garbage*, I personally think being unpromoted, having bad bases, and joining in the last third of the game (I can settle for the last half if the unit in question has REALLY bad bases) is more than enough to qualify someone as an Est.
Surprised that Sun wasn't included with the Tear Ring Saga characters when Leteena and Rebecca were. She always felt a bit Est-y with how she joins halfway through the game, pretty underleveled, not amazing base stats, but gains paragon, has a good promotion, and learns a whole bunch of neat skills if you train her.
Ests should have low base stats compared to your already strong units when they join, but their bases can be good relative to their join level (ie good for a low level unpromoted unit)
Coming to the discussion late but didnt see any comments on flayn so wanted to throw my hat in the ring: Flayn being an est is an attempt to conform 3H very abnormal structure to regular fe standards. As a game with NO late-joining units, flayn is one of the later recruits and comes in probably underlevelled as compared to your actually trained class, fits the ludonarrative “young” (being s thousand year old part-dragon cleric notwithstanding) naive reading of ests decently well, while having a reason (rescue) to put time and effort into her being your staffer over your current units. She’s probably about as close to an est as a game like 3H, that lacks late-joining recruits entirely due to its core “build-a-bear” design philosophy, can have.
I actually wouldn't lump all of Awakening's gen 2 into one category because I find that in reality their availabilities are all over the place. Due to the placement of Paralogues on the Valm side of the map, you actually can't access Gerome or Brady's chapters until later on in the game (unless you also unlock a bunch of other Paralogues). Often these later child units will need more than just a promotion to be on par with everyone else. Another factor is the awkward balancing of the Paralogues themselves. Noire is available right after Chapter 13, but the enemy power level of her map is more comparable to Chapter 18, so it can be difficult to clear the map and save Noire. (Both these issues are fixed in Fates) I agree that Morgan probably isn't an Est, but I would say Gerome and Noire are. Both of them have relatively delayed recruitments and are high-growth units that struggle to really contribute alone at first. Gerome has the traditional painfully late recruitment (not helped by the fact that you need to start an S-support from Chapter 12) while Noire gets placed in the middle of several promoted fliers that she can't even OHKO reliably. In higher difficulty playthroughs with minimal grinding, you really start to feel their Est-ness.
34:50 What is this?! This is not est, this is the glassiest cannon to ever cannon! Her defensive stats and growths are beyond abysmal (on average she has... 1 def at lvl 20 and 19 HP) while her offensive stats are through the roof! This is hilarious, i love it. Should we make Sara archetype for glass cannons in Fire emblem series? Edit - oh yeah its unpromoted. Still, shes glass-cannony as heck, even with +5 def on promotion.
Sara is one of the biggest examples of Thracia's very unique unit design, she is... wack, in the best way possible. She is technically a growth unit, having the best growth in every stat except physical, and having the most bonkers promotion in the game (Sage bonuses are insane! she also gets Adept BTW), but she is already useful before promotion, in a way, Sara is what could happen if Nino arrived 4 levels higher and could already uses high rank Staves before promotion. She is insane, and that makes her a very fun unit, she has part of the appeal of an Est (she is umpromted and has potential to become your best unit in the whole army), but she is already so good at base, that giving her time to growth and unlock her full power isn't really a big grind.
I'm gonna guess that Juno, Syrene and Sigrun were wrote in as votes for a very different definition of Est: "the third Pegasus 'sister' who is slightly shittier than the other two but now that you have all three you can use the Triangle Attack." Though you'd think Farina would also be lumped into that category (especially since she's probably closer to being an actual Est than most of the write-ins here). Anyway, my biggest disagreement is the idea that the Est has to be a complete "zero to hero" thing. Myrrh is one in my book because to me the most important thing is that she's a lategame training project; same with Delthea. I think it's kinda like the "Oifayes aren't real" argument; just because these two happen to be particularly good doesn't mean they're not Ests. A similar argument could be made for Tiki though I'm less sure on that one.
My issue with Myrh and Delthea being classified as ests isn't that they're good but that they aren't training projects at all. Myrhh needs like 3 levels before most enemies do 0 damage to her, and further training doesn't really change that. Delthea does get better the more you train her, but she's not unique in that aspect. Basically every unit in the game gets better with training, and I don't think she stands so far above others as to necessarily be considered a late game traing project. But at the end of the day it is subjective what is a est
An Est with low base stats wouldn't be a project unit, they'd be a meme unit. I don't care if you have 10% more growths across the board, if you have 4 less stats across the board, in the end, you're average at best AND need extra babying. Ests NEED high base stats. If not, their growths need to be Myrrh-level. To use an Est example,FE:Echoes "Est" is actually the average of the three pegasisters. You can argue she's got good Luck growth, but realistically, she's the 2nd-best of the sisters if you look at growths alone, she's lower in many growths than her sisters. But that starting level of 3... Beautiful. Level down Palla 5 levels, to bring her to level 3, at their growth averages, and Est is notably stronger: Her base stats would be a full 6 points higher! When most of your stats sit around 50% growth, that means Est is literally two levels of stats higher than Palla. Est at level 3 is the same strength as Palla at level 5. But their growths? Nearly identical. And Est's main "bad" stat is HP, which would be bumped into the average on promotion, meaning her bad growth rate stat doesn't actually matter, while the others likely wouldn't see many stat jumps. Echoes Est is an Est, by definition, she's literally Est. But the only reason she's an Est is HIGH base stats (and her weakest stat being one that can be easily fixed thanks to the weird promotion system), not low ones.
An Est MUST: Join in the 2nd half of the game Be unpromoted, but not a trainee Have lower than average bases Have higher than average growths An Est SHOULD: Not be able to promote instantly Not join in the last 1/6th of the game Not be a wyvern unit Not be a manakete, lord, or other rare class
I've only beaten one ROM Hack but I'll put out some propaganda too. My favorite Est to use was probably Myrm Emblem's version of Larcei, she comes in like 6 chapters from Endgame on a map with a timelimit, but she's separated from your army with Ayra who's a decent prepromote (though the game has a lot of those). She's Level 5 but has Paragon, so with some effort you can get her to 10 in just a single map, and upon promo she'll probably be as good as Ayra was, which is decent. What makes her stand out is that Myrm Emblem is a tough game with extremely strong and high Level enemies, this means that with Paragon, she'll gain a Level per kill for like 5 Levels even after promotion, which is super satisfying. Her ability to hug the caps is also appreciated and she's one of few units I can think of where HP is an actual standout stat. Everybody's fast as fuck in Myrm Emblem so getting doubled isn't an issue, enemies are also strong as fuck so taking single digit damage is difficult to do, only like two units can manage. Units with decent bulk are genuinely limited by their HP, which is usually 40~, Larcei has decent bulk but a 100+% HP Growth so she easily gets to like 50+ HP and it helps her survive like one more guy per EP and that's a big deal. She was also really quite good at using Myrm Emblem's plentiful and powerful magic Swords for me but idk if I just got Mag blessed so I wouldn't count that, she's just fun to use and helpful in an unexpected way.
All right, let me get this straight. An Est is an underleveled unit, with bad bases and good growths, who can’t contribute on their joining chapter, and give you a payoff if you train them. By this logic Charlotte is an Est in Conquest. Using the arbitrary requirement that an Est has to join in the second half of the game a character who joins half way through Chapter 13 of a 27 chapter game puts her right by the cutoff. She’s also one of the last units you gain in the main campaign and she’s a full 5 levels below Keaton and Benny who join in along side her and the next chapter respectively. She’s effectively 10 levels behind Leo who joins next chapter and Camilla who’s been in the army for some time at this point in the game. Her stats look decent at a glance but her hit rate is so bad they may as well be zero since she tops out around 40-50% hit rates against generics in her joining chapter. On Chapter 13 she’s an active liability since if you don’t drag her along with the rest of your army she’ll get unceremoniously killed off by the reinforcements that spawn when you start fighting Scarlet. Finally, Charlotte can absolutely be a boon to your army if you force yourself to use her. She’s got excellent growths in every relevant stat except defense and she provides a support partner fantastic pair up bonuses. She also has access to good skills through promotion, even in her base class. As a Hero she can get semi-reliable healing through the Sol skill and as a Berserker she can use Rally Strength to buff all of your other units. Conclusion, it’s really easy to twist definitions when you want to.
I'm just more shocked about ests as a whole I find trainees to be est units but the amount of bad units called est is kinda insane I think est as the series moved forward have them be more early game nowadays like Jean from engage
I wonder how much smaller this list would be if as a community over the years, we were better about not ripping on people for liking outclassed or bad units.
40:00 Wait how does Hugh have better growths than Zeiss? Zeiss has an overall higher growth total and only really loses out to Hugh by a 10% lower speed growth? I get that Speed is a better stat than strength or skill, but saying that Zeiss has worse growths than Hugh is a HUGHge stretch.
As someone who has only played FE1 on the Switch, I don’t understand why people mislabel what should just be a “late game flying inventory management unit” as some top tier high growth unit. Her introduction says it all: She shows up to give Marth the Mercuius.
Honestly, I've never called these "ests" it may be wrong, but I call them "Tikis" as you get Tiki pretty late, she comes at level one, and with enough effort (at least in fe1), she's arguably the best endgame unit. Though I suppose she also serves as a way in others' heads to differentiate in a simple sentence the difference between good manaketes, and fe12 bantu so that might be why Est is the example
On the subject of base stats for an Est, I don't think low bases are a necessity, because Est herself doesn't have low bases in FE1, she has better bases than Catria in fact, and only 1 point differences from Palla, and she's at a lower level than Palla, and only joining 4 chapters later. Meaning it's entirely possible she joins on par to both if you haven't specifically grinded them over anyone else from favoritism. Est joins perfectly able to fight, but she's unimpressive because she's average when you have heavy hitters trained up already like Cain, Abel, and Minerva.
personally I would say the merric archetype is a thing just small only having 5 or so members, soren, merric, clanne, asbel and ricken all are wind flavored mages w higher speed(comparatively to the other mages) and have a pre existing relationship w the main lord
Ricken does not fit 'higher speed comparatively to other mages'. In fact, he has less speed base & growth compared to Miriel who joins 3 chapters earlier. (R: Base 5 w/ 50% growth vs M: Base 7 w/ 60% growth) He is only faster than 1 other mage and that's Henry.
I do think Pelleas is an Est, but i dont think having the best growths is requirement to be an Est, just that theyre an underleveled unit pretty far from promo (needing 9 levels, unless you crow him for some reason???) that joins late that has good growths (not really stand out), bad bases, and levels quickly.
Wait i thought Ewan would definitely not be an Est since hes a trainee like Amelia and Ross I mean I'm also not done the video yet so i could be speaking way too soon
I think you and a lot of people see Archtypes mentioned in a gameplay context is because you all already value gameplay really highly but these archtypes are narrative and equally valid as narrative tools. Their named after characters not a set of numbers. Character refrence makes you think of a character. These characters do often fit a similar narrative role. Saying the hardest mode community gets dibs on terms is a weird stance when there is plenty of players who are here for characters and story.
I feel like you either didn't watch the video or are engaging in bad faith, because I made it clear very early on that I do believe there are story based archetypes in addition to gameplay ones. I actually think story is an integral part of video games and make a lot of content focusing on the story aspects of fire emblem. However when talking about archetypes I believe in separating story ones and gameplay ones, to minimize confusion. You are welcome to disagree with that take however framing it as some sort of "hardest mode community" thing is just not an accurate representation of my feelings towards story.
To me people calling Zeiss an est and/or bad is just the product of how the brain of fe fans gets confused the moment someone in the Wyvern class doesn't break the game in half
Yeah and even then he doesn’t break it in half only because his melody already does.
FE archetypes are like personality tests irl. They have a notable utility in assisting discourse, but when they start to frame discourse, we get some weird conclusions and results.
I’m the standing in place archetype
@@ultimapower6950 Do you have a siege tome or ballista?
@@julioc.3158 well how do you count this *Launches a Thermonuclear SUN at enemies*
@@ultimapower6950 Good enough I guess.
"A brief look"
Video is nearly 2 hours
Epic
I mean, it's shorter than that "quick restrospective on Oblivion" lmao
Came for the frank discussion on fire emblem categorization, stayed for the slow descent into unravelling madness
People calling late game prepromotes Ests is actually baffling to me. In what world are Veyle, Mauvier, and Syrene even remotely close to Ests?????
I haven't a clue
Syrene can be raised, similar to Cecilia & Isadora, as low level underpowered prepremote. I wouldn't call them an Est either, but maybe in a league of their own, possibly including Echidna
Late Game-Prepromotes aren’t called Ests, but Gotohs. Basically great units but come kind of late when compared to other units that contribute heavily to the team early on.
Fun fact! In Russian, "есть" or "est" in English letters, means "to be", "there is", or "there exists". This is a good way to describe Ests, because they certainly do exist :)
Fun fact : In French, Est is also just the word ''To be''. The damning evidence is piling up.
This is also the case in Latin. What could Kaga have meant by this....
@@DaniDoyle SUM, ES, EST, SUMES, ESTIS, SUNT!
I AM, YOU ARE, HE IS - WE ARE, YOU(all) ARE, THEY ARE! 🎶🎶
My latin teacher made us sing conjugations...
@@blindcocostudios "est" functions gramatically identically to "is"
you could also translate it as east i guess
In American "est" means Ohio Standard Time
I responded "no" to the low base stat question (question #4) due to the wording. Units such as Nino or Est herself do have very high base stats *for their level*, but not for your army at that point in the game. Thus, defining "low bases" could be different depending on your reference point.
Oh yeah, Est and Nino have higher stats that their level implies (compared with people like Sophia, Lilina and the FE1 mid game mercenaries, that are actually closer to the class bases).
Yup, there is a huge difference between having Radd bases and Zeiss bases.
One has bad bases for his level, the other has great bases, both for his level and the chapter he appears; and then there is Nino, that has bad bases for the moment where she join, but if you threw her in chapters where you get other Level 5 units, she would be so competent that she would be without a doubt be your best mage, at least until Pent's arrival, she has the strenghts of both Lucius (better Mag/Spd) and Erk (better weapon) in a single unit
He probably should have worded it like "do you think Ests need to have low bases at that point of the game?" If you want the same wording.
Funny thing about Mauvier, his personal growth total is actually the second highest in the game behind Anna. Maybe that (and the fact his base speed is iffy in a doodoo class) is why people think he's an Est?
Also, I can see the argument about specifically Rosado. Though he's a prepromote with an average level, he joins over halfway through the game, his bases are noticeably lower than the rest of your cast, and he has some of the best physical offensive growths in the game. Plus, he's a flier on a map with a flooding gimmick, so that could make him easier to train up.
If "Est" is a thing, we are the ones that are Ests, for overanalyzing games we arrived in to very late. There's sure to be a payoff from that.
TRUE
I feel like dev intentionality is an important factor left out of this video. For example the devs certainly did not expect the average player to suicide bomb Medeus with Tiki, but they definitely intended for you to raise her up. There’s lots of units that the devs want you to use *as though* they are Ests even though their design fails to actualize this. Like Valentina Est’s class bases situation.
I actually did talk about Dev Intentionality, in that I don't believe IS devs almost ever set out to "create an Est" (For example FE1 Est is designed with similar intentions to FE1 Tomas, despite the differences they have in play)
@@DaniDoyle Sorry, in hindsight I framed my point pretty badly. What I really wanted to point out was that I found it odd that Nino is definitely an Est even though training her fails to be rewarding, but Valentina Est fails to be an Est only because the mechanics of the game make it so that she isn’t unique, even though pushing her up to that Falcon Knight promotion is still a lot of work that the devs clearly felt most players would find rewarding.
Valentia Est isn't JUST held back by the mechanics of the game. While they do play a part of her growths and bases are also a factor in why I don't think she's an est.
My favorite thing ever in fire emblem is training bad units so est is easily my favorite archetype, any game’s est is an automatic endgame unit for me
So I didn't respond to your survey but I can give a reason why someone might think low base stats aren't necessary for being an est.
It depends on how you define bad base stats. I'm pretty sure you'll define them as "far lower than the units I have at the time" but it could also mean "lower than what a unit should have at the level they're at" and Ests actually usually do quite well in the second category.
That's an interesting perspective, and might explain things, thank you!
I absolutely second this, and to build on it a bit and put it simply: it’s relative. I think that every est should come with at the very least usable stats, which is my I think units like sophia can be an absolute hassle. If you do end up giving a good stat, it could be something like Ziess’s supporting offense’s or even magic piercing potential, which is the only thing that saves sophia and nino. Shoutout to sigrid from the rom hack vision quest too for being one of the best est’s I’ve ever used.
Miranda feels like she's designed to be an Est, but Thracia's mechanics really don't fit that type of unit design. One of my favorite aspects of this is that her unique Mage Knight promotion is actually a bit of a downside for endgame, since she loses movement indoors compared to her base class. And considering an Est is supposed to have their best performance in endgame, that's really bad for her
Finally finished watching this. Just wish we had time to go a bit more in depth, such a short video couldn't possibly give enough attention to a lot of the best Ests around, like Zeiss and Sara.
Also if you use savestates Sophia is pretty easy to train, and if you rig all her levels and no one else's she's the best unit in the game
Damn, those are all good points, Imma delete my channel in shame 😭
FE12 Est probably deserves to belong in "Definitely an Est" tier, the comparison to Catria makes her growths not look quite that crazy, but the reason why is just because Catria's growths are also amazing, hers are in the top 10 in the game with 80+ units (If you count the bonus downloadable maps, if not it's still the biggest FE cast)
Meanwhile Est's personal growth total in New Mystery is just flat out the highest, sitting at 325 personal, 5 above Jake's 320, and 15 above Katarina's 310, and as far as specfic categories Est has the highest personal strength growth and then the 2nd highest (tied) personal skill, and then is still in the top ~90th percentile in Speed/Luck, and while her 10% Magic and Resistance look bad, that's actually pretty decidedly above average for FE12 where Magic caps out at 30% personal and Res at 20% personal, her growths are just downright fantastic aside from bulk and then she also has the Triangle Attack for if you want some sort of special utility to be considered an Est
Similarly, though this doesn't change anything about the takeaways, Mauvier's growths are also definitely very good, he has the highest raw total in Engage, in fact the gap between his personal total (345) and the next highest (Anna's 325) is the largest gap between any two adjacent units when ordered from highest to lowest total, and his individual categories are all good his HP/Mag/Dex/Def/Res/Bld are all in the top 10 it's only his Lck/Spd that aren't amazing, obviously he's still not an Est cause his bases are also absurd and he's high level, but his growths are excellent by Engage standards, Engage personal growths are just overall low
High growths and high base level make him a Karel Archetype /s
My guess for the Flayn thing is based on Story, not gameplay. Female character who joins later than most units who needs to be rescued.
Also on Syrene and Juno, my guess is just that the submitters definition is "Late Joining character with unusually bad bases". doing the Oifey thing where the archetype is based on how good a unit is, but instead of being "Jagan's who are good" its "Late game units who have low bases."
A near 2 hour video about one of my favorite archetypes to use? I'm gonna love this
What I got out of this video is:
The Est archetype exists as the Nino archetype, and it's a romhack archetype more than a mainline series one
Note that I was also one of the people who said that they didn't think Est was a real archetype in the survey, so do with that information what you will
9:00 I always viewed The Est as a unit that would be good if you had gotten them earlier in the game but they join significantly later and need a lot of commitment and resources to be on par or better than the rest of the army. It's fine if they have good bases for their class if they are significantly lower level and/or unpromoted. they need to be shit when they join but with high potential if invested in.
The thing with the awakening kids is that they have a soft order due to the lack of level scaling in paralogues, so owain will always have unpromoted units while nah gets a bunch of counter warriors leading some to be pushed later into the est recruitment window.
As one of the people who submitted Sheema, I'd say that there's a meaningful distinction. Her New Mystery self is, ultimately, just another bad unit in a game absolutely full of them. A funny-bad unit with no real redeeming traits in a game where there's so many already.
In FE3, though, while the combination of lower caps, higher growths, and that she's a completely guaranteed indoor Gradivus user given she has enough WLV to use it at base, but otherwise poor enough stats that without raising her up she'll be killed without getting a chance to ever get much use out of it, while she's definitely well enough below par even for a filler unit at base aside from near-capped defense that being technically promoted doesn't mean that she isn't behind where your units should be for that late in the game. She also grows in a way that's pretty well-suited for the indoor three-map marathon that is true ending endgame.
Otherwise to use one of the best weapons in the game in more than one map you have to either invest a WLV manual in Draug or get lucky on his low WLV growth, not to mention feed him for much more of the game throughout much more armor-unfriendly waters, mean that she isn't just his replacement for the niche, but someone who generally has a lot of reasons to be considered over him in spite of a much more brutal training window. Also that ever so important number-go-up brain chemical rush.
I just wanna say that I quite literally laughed out loud when I saw that different ests weren't seen universally as ests by the sample graph we answered. Like, I'm sure it's possible that est could be done in a way, in a game that makes her not fit her own archetype... but it's hilarious to me when I see est not be considered an est, true or not.
Ok so I personally agree that zeiss isnt an est
HOWEVER
On normal mode, zeiss has terrible stats. Yes, hard mode bonuses make zeiss way too strong for an est... but hard mode isn't the only mode. On normal mode his only stat above 10 is strength... everything else sucks.
The bigger issue for zeiss, in my opinion, is the growths. They aren't anything special, and this is the same reason I don't count Sophia as an est.
Eat probably doesn’t match most people’s definition of an Est archetype because nobody has played FE1. Est has very good bases in FE1. I’d wager that for most people, the first time they ever heard of the Est archetype was in regards to Nino, and so they built up their idea of what the archetype was based on Nino. Honestly it’s more the Nino archetype than the Est archetype.
@@DuelingShade no need to explain it, I did watch the whole video after all
10/10 thumbnail deseves a like for that alone
Est = Character with High PERCEIVED Growth Rates that joins late and weak, thus you pay more attention to their Level Ups than other units.
I could probably play Fe7 from the moment Nino joins to the end of the game in the time it takes for this video to finish
I've always had a uniqe realtion to the est archetype, I played fe echoes not knowing what an "est" was and I somehow missed recruiting palla and catria so est was actually the first pegasus I found on celica's side of the game, by the time I got confused and looked up where to recruit her sisters, I had babied est enough to where she had surpassed them and ended up becoming one of my defining pegasi.
I the perception that ests dont have low bases comes form comparing them to units of the same level not the same join time, for example im pretty sure nino has higher stats at whatever her starting level is than erk does at the same level
God I fucking love Nino
I’m still of the opinion that Nino is possibly the best worst unit in fire emblem, or at least fe7. There is absolutely no reason to use her but she at least has an actual payoff with a surprisingly low amount of commitment.
I think 1 requirement of being an est is that they have to be a child that you feel guilty about making fight
Thanks for the video! I can tell you worked very hard
Truly amazing video! Great work.
"Oh, another Dani Doyle Video. Says its only a brief loo--Why do I hear God Shattering Star in the background?"
Great vid as always Dani ❤
Heck yeah, a 2 hr dani doyle upload about Ests? Cant wait to smoke this later
Your point about archetypes mainly being a tool of communication is key. FE discussion used to take place on forums where it was easier to rigorously define terms, but now discussion is dispersed throughout many different social media communities which has made archetypes more broad and vague. It's kinda like how the separation of Jagen and Oifey was pretty prominent on Serenes Forest but these days Oifey has been absorbed by Jagen.
Dang, it's pretty wild to see who people categorize as an Est. Enjoyed! Hope you're having a good day
I clicked the video where are my speed growths? My ironman run is dying and I need assistance
Please wait up to 25 days for speed growth
The usage of the Mario and Luigi music in this video makes me happy.
If the Merric archetype actually existed, it would be FE1/FE3B1/FE11 Merric, Asbel, and if you wanna stretch it a bit, FE3B2/FE12 Linde, and if you wanna be funny, Lewyn!Arthur :3
Basically, early game mage with unique tome if you wanna fit all 4 in lmao
First off, Nino being the most definitive Est is hilarious.
Second...
Hortensia is a character that does have decently high growths, from what I remember. However, using her, it was mostly for cheesing maps with water and her staff usage. She never really excels in combat at any point, which I feel is a necessary part of a late-term Est. There are elements of an Est, but I wouldn't say it's definitive.
Ena (In PoR) is more of a punishment for not beating Black Knight with Ike. If you do, you get Nasir who is much better than Ena. It's not even like a replacement unit. You need to defeat Black Knight to get Nasir, the better unit. Doing so passes the opportunity for Ena. It's weird, but a fun idea. Not an Est.
What world did people ever consider Catherine a trainee? I really wanna know.
Sending a tiny dragon to her death really is "iconic". Very based.
Case in point, it's really standout how much overlap there is between what people call bad and an Est. Not all bad units are Ests, but the fact so many Ests that really shouldn't be are considered so is telling. Like, seriously? Jesse? You not being able to kill anything doesn't make you an Est.
Video title: A brief look at Ests
Video: *almost 2 hours long*
Sorry that it's so short , I'll make it longer next time 😔
"Brief" and it's almost 2 hours long
time to sit down and watch :D
Great video! Personally I always use Ests and bad units near endgame just because they provide a fun challenge even in some of FE's easier endgames
the people answering no to the base stat question might have myrrh in mind
Was not a voter in the poll. However, On the subject of "base stats" like you had asked, there are some units I always thought of as Ests that their bases literally did not matter because of the type of unit they were. The best example probably being Myrrh from FE Sacred Stones. Her join time is after the route split, with only 1 character joining in the main story after her, her growths are THE best in the game, and her bases, while yes they are "bad" they literally do not matter because of her dragonstone. They could have been literally almost anything and she would still shred almost any enemy in her join chapter at base, and even in the chapters after. So her bases just don't matter or factor into the equation, but I still consider her an Est, personally. Same goes for some of the Laguz in FE 9 and especially 10 because their stats while transformed are basically doubled in combat compared to whatever the base number is, which in turn affects what their joined bases are and their growths to a certain extent. Do I consider many laguz to be an Est? No, honestly probably only Lyre and she's maybe not an Est depending on other factors, but RD is pretty weird when it comes to unit join time and unit availability, so pinning down an Est in that game is way harder, as is any other unit archetype in that game, in my eyes.
The last one I can really think of is child units from games like Awakening and Fates? Some of them join with bases that are solid enough, though they obviously need levels and need more stats to fit in, but they can become some of the best units in the game and have some good growths, but are they Ests when they can join either in the first half of either game mentioned, or depending on when you reach your S rank supports, literally right before the final chapter? Your opinion on these factors is your own, but the fact that the questions can be posed in the first place probably means someone considers any of these units mentioned an Est or a potential one.
Because of the thumbnail I thought this was an actual ad
It's an add for Nino
the low base stats question's weird response I think is a problem with the question itself. what does "low" mean in this context? Low for their class? Low for your army at the moment? The second they definitely should, being weak compared to the rest of your army is the defining trait. But low in relation to other units base stats at that level isn't necessarily needed at all.
Est definitive look: late join, low level/weak on join, better growths than 70ish percent of your army.
I don't know of an example of a character that would fit this but I have an idea of an Est that might have good bases: if they are a class or use a weapon type that has poor matchups when they arrive.
So you need to navigate the maps well until they can promote or earn something in their kit to become a better unit. Maybe FE4 Lachesis and Leif dont really technically fall in est but their stat growths are less impactful than their future promotion
i'm only 30 minutes in so idk if this comes up later but at this point in the video it is really feeling to me like a key element actually is the subjectivity of how they turn out. like the growth rate element feels to me, vibes-wise, functions to create a unit that "ought to" turn out better than alternative options. the potential for failure seems super relevant to me. nino has at best _a chance_ for full numerical payoff. it's a _decent_ chance; it's a chance that _is enticing_ to a lot of people. i dunno, just noodling here and it's pretty esoteric noodling that other people wouldn't consider, time to unpause lol.
e: in retrospect thats something that goes for literally every character but i dunno. i guess risk is a big part of fun in general so there's that.
"A Brief X" and an Hour+ Long Video essay - name a better duo, I'll wait
Minor correction: During Fae's section you mention her utility as a status staff baiter due to her apparent low res, and while her "low" def/res are what makes her nice as a siege tome/ballista bait unit, status staves don't care about their target's stats (in gba)
As long as their target is valid (ie they dont silence non-magic units), they actually go in reverse deployment order, which is very silly but also true (you can see this most obviously with sophia/cecilia getting first priority for being sleep/silence staff'd in ch14)
Good video but i am nonetheless a pedant
I have to assume all those Flayn write-ins were from people who think that every archetype has to be in every fire emblem game, so they were trying to figure out who the Est was in 3H and she was the closest they got, rather than considering the idea that 3H just doesn't have anybody who fits the pattern (because all your units are either available in the early game, or pre-promoted)
I’d say that on any route that doesn’t start with Black Eagles, Ferdinand Von Aegir is the Est. He’s amazing if you put work into him but his recruitment cost is awkward and high.
@@maxspecs Except that students in 3H level up in background; recruiting him late means he's high level with high base stats, so there's never a period of weakness. And every unit in 3H is powerful if you put the work into them; his growths are above average but not as high as somebody like Petra, Ingrid, Ignatz, or Leonie, and without any real dramatic standouts. Instead of a 'zero to hero' arc he just goes from a solid unit to a moderately more solid unit.
And his recruitment threshold is 10 points in Dex, which Byleth is likely to have at level 2, when somebody like Hilda is asking for 30 points of Cha (and is actually unavailable in the first half of one of her routes).
I guess if you never study Armor then getting a C rank there might feel like a trial, but imo you should be training that anyway if you have any free time because the weight reduction is basically a +3 Spd and qualifying for Armor Knight (even if you have no intention of fighting as one) brings your Def up to a minimum 12 at level 10, a significant boost for all but the toughest units.
There might be an argument to be made for Hilda or Cyril in the Silver route, but I'm pretty sure that 3H just does not have any Est in it.
Give Gaiden Est the Angel Ring and watch her quickly become a goddess, trust me🙏
Pokémon has an Est archetype : it's called "Magicarp".
Or, in other words : the Est archetype is a Magicarp archetype that joins late. Like Gen 2 Larvitar.
I remember when I answered the poll I wrote something half as a joke, half having no coherent thoughts about Ests' naming conventions and it being kinda weird since (at the time) the only character who I would actually recognize as an Est was just Nino, but as the video progressed it somehow made sense.
Imo Est as an archetype is kinda subjective (and personally making Ests' existance dependant on hackroms is somewhat cheating), but even so I'd still say that it has more validity as a concept than Oifey just because the idea of a shitty late unit you have to train in order to get a good unit sounds coherent, while on the other hand saying "hey this pre-promote has 2 more str and 10% more spd growth than Yaygen, he's def an Oifey" is just silly, goofy even.
I don't think that the Est name should stick tho; Nino better embodies the whole idea, and not every archetype should be named after a FE1/3 character, besides I think she drives the point better than Est since pretty much everyone knows Nino as a unit.
P.S.: We should popularize the use of the "Merric archetype" to annoy veteran players. We shall define it as the early-game mage that gets outclassed by a promoted late-game magic-user.
I've answered questions four with no, cause i think of "bad bases" in relation to a units level, so an unpromoted level 1 unit joining in chapter 23, could have good bases for being level 1 and also could be an est. If they have good bases gor their joining time, then they are no ests.
having only gone through FE1 an FE3H I'm not the most qualified to talk on this, but the feeling I'm getting is that Est's are a subtype of Trainee, being an effective Trainee that joins late.
What a lot of the non-Ests that were seen as Ests had in common was that they were either not recruited late, they were not Trainees, as they were effective at base, or they were just bad units.
I think it could be funny if we could get a label to refer to weird edge cases of units that aren't precisely Est, but feel like Est because they fit most of the usual criteria (being low level, unpromoted, have unique appeal, specially at promotion), but aren't really weak for the moment they arrive, and in fact, are comparable to units that appear alongside them (even promoted ones); which it the case for Sara, Zeiss, and a few that maybe I'm missing.
Also, I think a lot of people refer to bad characters as Est because they don't want their favorite characters to feel worthless people that only exist to die in Ironman, they want their characters to have a purpose, the idea of your favorite character only purpose is to die (or to add difficulty in a ranked run) is quite sad.
Specially if your character isn't bad in a funny way like say, Arden, if you character is bad just because is bad, and doesn't have any meaning that... it makes their existence feel like a twisted joke to mess with the people that could like them.
Also, ik it's a really small archetype, but I'd love you to discuss the camus archetype (crazy strong enemy boss that joins your army)
I do have Camus on the list, but I think you're confusing it with something else, the defining trait of Camus are units who seem like they should be recruitable but are not actually
@@DaniDoyle oh sorry if I got it messed up. I don't know many of the official archetype definitions as I can't stand fandom wiki. I thought camus referred to characters like Camus and The Black Knight who join you either in other games or later on in the story but served as a major roadblock previously
1:05:48 My guess is it's the whole story based perspective on Ests that would be used to justify calling her one but that's all I can think of
One of the reasons someone might have said an Est doesn't need bad bases might be confusion on what you're scale you're judging the bases. What I mean is that if you mean bases for the chapter, then yeah, it's definitely mandatory for an Est IMO, but if you mean bad for their level then I don't think thats a necessity. For the sake of argument let's say that the average stats for a level 1 base class unit in this game has 20 HP and 5 in all stats. Each unit has variation but that's the average of all of them. Then you get to the last third of the game and all your units are in the late teens of their relevant stats and you pick up a unit who is level 1 and has 22 HP and 8 in all their stats then that unit has really bad bases for that chapter, but for their level they have great bases and if they have good growths that turn them into a powerhouse after you put a little work into them then they're definitely still an Est
"Brief" (Checks video's length)
Yeah, that checks out.
Something i think worth noting is that sometimes characters are intended to be ests but kind of fail because of stat distribution. I think lina falls into this, personally. Shes incredibly shit even when given massive favoritism, but something worth noting is that she does have a massive magic growth, larger than many unpromoted mages. She also has access to the levin sword which is good right??? levin pegs are fun and cracked!!! ...well she also has 2 mastery, so even after promo she needs 3 mastery levels at 35% or a valuable mastery potion. Just something worth noting, i think.
Sooo is the boss of IN Stage 4B (powerful) an Est or No?
Also how do gain this power of Rom Hack Propaganda?
nice paper mario music. i love you…r channel ‼️‼️
So I love Radiant Dawn Lyre to bits. She's my favorite unit in the game, it tickles me how when you look at her bases and growths she's just a green Cat unit that got some blue paint splashed on her. However, she definitely doesn't join late enough to be considered an Est and even if she did her stats are awful and hardly make her worth calling a growth unit. That said there is one roundabout way I could see calling her an Est if you ignore her join time. If you go through all the time and effort of leveling her up to level 30 then you can use a Satori Sign on her to give her Rend which will allow her to kill just about everything in her way. Hell while we're at it you could also give her one of the Laguz Gems you get at the end of the game so that she can stay fully transformed throughout an entire map without worrying about her Gauge. They have 5 uses, just enough to get her through the Tower. This gives Lyre an incredible zero to hero arc especially if combined with training her Strike rank and lucky Str levels on her. I should know, this is exactly what I did with Lyre on my first playthrough of the game. The problem with this explanation though is that Lyre didn't exactly grow into a one cat army herself, it's more due to the powerful resources given to her which could have been given to other units that have both higher floors and ceilings than Lyre. Without those I doubt most people would even bother to remember she's in the barracks until you're splitting your armies at the beginning of Part 4. I do love the girl but she's not an Est, just a bad unit.
Imo, I think that Ests can exist on a sort of sliding scale; like how we have Jagens like Seth and Marcus vs Jagens like Vander and... Well, Jagen. I think someone like Nino is definitely an Est, while also personally thinking that the iterations of Est with mediocre growths are also still Ests.
Unless their growths are outright *garbage*, I personally think being unpromoted, having bad bases, and joining in the last third of the game (I can settle for the last half if the unit in question has REALLY bad bases) is more than enough to qualify someone as an Est.
Surprised that Sun wasn't included with the Tear Ring Saga characters when Leteena and Rebecca were. She always felt a bit Est-y with how she joins halfway through the game, pretty underleveled, not amazing base stats, but gains paragon, has a good promotion, and learns a whole bunch of neat skills if you train her.
Ests should have low base stats compared to your already strong units when they join, but their bases can be good relative to their join level (ie good for a low level unpromoted unit)
Coming to the discussion late but didnt see any comments on flayn so wanted to throw my hat in the ring:
Flayn being an est is an attempt to conform 3H very abnormal structure to regular fe standards. As a game with NO late-joining units, flayn is one of the later recruits and comes in probably underlevelled as compared to your actually trained class, fits the ludonarrative “young” (being s thousand year old part-dragon cleric notwithstanding) naive reading of ests decently well, while having a reason (rescue) to put time and effort into her being your staffer over your current units. She’s probably about as close to an est as a game like 3H, that lacks late-joining recruits entirely due to its core “build-a-bear” design philosophy, can have.
I actually wouldn't lump all of Awakening's gen 2 into one category because I find that in reality their availabilities are all over the place. Due to the placement of Paralogues on the Valm side of the map, you actually can't access Gerome or Brady's chapters until later on in the game (unless you also unlock a bunch of other Paralogues). Often these later child units will need more than just a promotion to be on par with everyone else. Another factor is the awkward balancing of the Paralogues themselves. Noire is available right after Chapter 13, but the enemy power level of her map is more comparable to Chapter 18, so it can be difficult to clear the map and save Noire. (Both these issues are fixed in Fates)
I agree that Morgan probably isn't an Est, but I would say Gerome and Noire are. Both of them have relatively delayed recruitments and are high-growth units that struggle to really contribute alone at first. Gerome has the traditional painfully late recruitment (not helped by the fact that you need to start an S-support from Chapter 12) while Noire gets placed in the middle of several promoted fliers that she can't even OHKO reliably. In higher difficulty playthroughs with minimal grinding, you really start to feel their Est-ness.
Maybe if I simp enough for Rosado he'll be good. Anyways, incredible video
The real question is what the remakes have against Est
😢 asking the REAL questions...
34:50 What is this?! This is not est, this is the glassiest cannon to ever cannon! Her defensive stats and growths are beyond abysmal (on average she has... 1 def at lvl 20 and 19 HP) while her offensive stats are through the roof! This is hilarious, i love it.
Should we make Sara archetype for glass cannons in Fire emblem series?
Edit - oh yeah its unpromoted. Still, shes glass-cannony as heck, even with +5 def on promotion.
Sara is one of the biggest examples of Thracia's very unique unit design, she is... wack, in the best way possible.
She is technically a growth unit, having the best growth in every stat except physical, and having the most bonkers promotion in the game (Sage bonuses are insane! she also gets Adept BTW), but she is already useful before promotion, in a way, Sara is what could happen if Nino arrived 4 levels higher and could already uses high rank Staves before promotion.
She is insane, and that makes her a very fun unit, she has part of the appeal of an Est (she is umpromted and has potential to become your best unit in the whole army), but she is already so good at base, that giving her time to growth and unlock her full power isn't really a big grind.
I'm gonna guess that Juno, Syrene and Sigrun were wrote in as votes for a very different definition of Est: "the third Pegasus 'sister' who is slightly shittier than the other two but now that you have all three you can use the Triangle Attack." Though you'd think Farina would also be lumped into that category (especially since she's probably closer to being an actual Est than most of the write-ins here).
Anyway, my biggest disagreement is the idea that the Est has to be a complete "zero to hero" thing. Myrrh is one in my book because to me the most important thing is that she's a lategame training project; same with Delthea. I think it's kinda like the "Oifayes aren't real" argument; just because these two happen to be particularly good doesn't mean they're not Ests. A similar argument could be made for Tiki though I'm less sure on that one.
My issue with Myrh and Delthea being classified as ests isn't that they're good but that they aren't training projects at all. Myrhh needs like 3 levels before most enemies do 0 damage to her, and further training doesn't really change that. Delthea does get better the more you train her, but she's not unique in that aspect. Basically every unit in the game gets better with training, and I don't think she stands so far above others as to necessarily be considered a late game traing project. But at the end of the day it is subjective what is a est
Enough about est, let's talk about other time zones for a while
good vidoe
An Est with low base stats wouldn't be a project unit, they'd be a meme unit. I don't care if you have 10% more growths across the board, if you have 4 less stats across the board, in the end, you're average at best AND need extra babying.
Ests NEED high base stats. If not, their growths need to be Myrrh-level. To use an Est example,FE:Echoes "Est" is actually the average of the three pegasisters. You can argue she's got good Luck growth, but realistically, she's the 2nd-best of the sisters if you look at growths alone, she's lower in many growths than her sisters. But that starting level of 3... Beautiful. Level down Palla 5 levels, to bring her to level 3, at their growth averages, and Est is notably stronger: Her base stats would be a full 6 points higher! When most of your stats sit around 50% growth, that means Est is literally two levels of stats higher than Palla. Est at level 3 is the same strength as Palla at level 5. But their growths? Nearly identical. And Est's main "bad" stat is HP, which would be bumped into the average on promotion, meaning her bad growth rate stat doesn't actually matter, while the others likely wouldn't see many stat jumps.
Echoes Est is an Est, by definition, she's literally Est. But the only reason she's an Est is HIGH base stats (and her weakest stat being one that can be easily fixed thanks to the weird promotion system), not low ones.
An Est MUST:
Join in the 2nd half of the game
Be unpromoted, but not a trainee
Have lower than average bases
Have higher than average growths
An Est SHOULD:
Not be able to promote instantly
Not join in the last 1/6th of the game
Not be a wyvern unit
Not be a manakete, lord, or other rare class
Why not wyvern?
@@DaniDoyle zeiss
I've only beaten one ROM Hack but I'll put out some propaganda too. My favorite Est to use was probably Myrm Emblem's version of Larcei, she comes in like 6 chapters from Endgame on a map with a timelimit, but she's separated from your army with Ayra who's a decent prepromote (though the game has a lot of those). She's Level 5 but has Paragon, so with some effort you can get her to 10 in just a single map, and upon promo she'll probably be as good as Ayra was, which is decent.
What makes her stand out is that Myrm Emblem is a tough game with extremely strong and high Level enemies, this means that with Paragon, she'll gain a Level per kill for like 5 Levels even after promotion, which is super satisfying. Her ability to hug the caps is also appreciated and she's one of few units I can think of where HP is an actual standout stat. Everybody's fast as fuck in Myrm Emblem so getting doubled isn't an issue, enemies are also strong as fuck so taking single digit damage is difficult to do, only like two units can manage. Units with decent bulk are genuinely limited by their HP, which is usually 40~, Larcei has decent bulk but a 100+% HP Growth so she easily gets to like 50+ HP and it helps her survive like one more guy per EP and that's a big deal. She was also really quite good at using Myrm Emblem's plentiful and powerful magic Swords for me but idk if I just got Mag blessed so I wouldn't count that, she's just fun to use and helpful in an unexpected way.
You guys remember when they switched Est and Catria's stats in FE11? What did they mean by this?
EST doesn’t feel like a word anymore
Damn, well the Tiki video might be shot but at least there's still hope for the Makalov Archetypes video.
I believe you mean the Mathis Archetype (glares in lena)
Good lord you're RIGHT
"a brief look at ests", 1 hour and 47 minutes lol, but good video regardless.
All right, let me get this straight. An Est is an underleveled unit, with bad bases and good growths, who can’t contribute on their joining chapter, and give you a payoff if you train them.
By this logic Charlotte is an Est in Conquest.
Using the arbitrary requirement that an Est has to join in the second half of the game a character who joins half way through Chapter 13 of a 27 chapter game puts her right by the cutoff. She’s also one of the last units you gain in the main campaign and she’s a full 5 levels below Keaton and Benny who join in along side her and the next chapter respectively. She’s effectively 10 levels behind Leo who joins next chapter and Camilla who’s been in the army for some time at this point in the game.
Her stats look decent at a glance but her hit rate is so bad they may as well be zero since she tops out around 40-50% hit rates against generics in her joining chapter. On Chapter 13 she’s an active liability since if you don’t drag her along with the rest of your army she’ll get unceremoniously killed off by the reinforcements that spawn when you start fighting Scarlet.
Finally, Charlotte can absolutely be a boon to your army if you force yourself to use her. She’s got excellent growths in every relevant stat except defense and she provides a support partner fantastic pair up bonuses. She also has access to good skills through promotion, even in her base class. As a Hero she can get semi-reliable healing through the Sol skill and as a Berserker she can use Rally Strength to buff all of your other units.
Conclusion, it’s really easy to twist definitions when you want to.
I'm just more shocked about ests as a whole I find trainees to be est units but the amount of bad units called est is kinda insane I think est as the series moved forward have them be more early game nowadays like Jean from engage
I wonder how much smaller this list would be if as a community over the years, we were better about not ripping on people for liking outclassed or bad units.
40:00 Wait how does Hugh have better growths than Zeiss? Zeiss has an overall higher growth total and only really loses out to Hugh by a 10% lower speed growth?
I get that Speed is a better stat than strength or skill, but saying that Zeiss has worse growths than Hugh is a HUGHge stretch.
Yea, probably a bit of an exaggeration on my part
As someone who has only played FE1 on the Switch, I don’t understand why people mislabel what should just be a “late game flying inventory management unit” as some top tier high growth unit. Her introduction says it all: She shows up to give Marth the Mercuius.
Est has the highest growths in fe1.
Honestly, I've never called these "ests" it may be wrong, but I call them "Tikis" as you get Tiki pretty late, she comes at level one, and with enough effort (at least in fe1), she's arguably the best endgame unit. Though I suppose she also serves as a way in others' heads to differentiate in a simple sentence the difference between good manaketes, and fe12 bantu so that might be why Est is the example
FE6 Karel is an est, dont @ me
When is the video in the Joe Brian archetype????
On the subject of base stats for an Est, I don't think low bases are a necessity, because Est herself doesn't have low bases in FE1, she has better bases than Catria in fact, and only 1 point differences from Palla, and she's at a lower level than Palla, and only joining 4 chapters later. Meaning it's entirely possible she joins on par to both if you haven't specifically grinded them over anyone else from favoritism.
Est joins perfectly able to fight, but she's unimpressive because she's average when you have heavy hitters trained up already like Cain, Abel, and Minerva.
personally I would say the merric archetype is a thing just small only having 5 or so members, soren, merric, clanne, asbel and ricken all are wind flavored mages w higher speed(comparatively to the other mages) and have a pre existing relationship w the main lord
Ricken does not fit 'higher speed comparatively to other mages'. In fact, he has less speed base & growth compared to Miriel who joins 3 chapters earlier. (R: Base 5 w/ 50% growth vs M: Base 7 w/ 60% growth) He is only faster than 1 other mage and that's Henry.
I do think Pelleas is an Est, but i dont think having the best growths is requirement to be an Est, just that theyre an underleveled unit pretty far from promo (needing 9 levels, unless you crow him for some reason???) that joins late that has good growths (not really stand out), bad bases, and levels quickly.
Wait i thought Ewan would definitely not be an Est since hes a trainee like Amelia and Ross
I mean I'm also not done the video yet so i could be speaking way too soon
I think you and a lot of people see Archtypes mentioned in a gameplay context is because you all already value gameplay really highly but these archtypes are narrative and equally valid as narrative tools. Their named after characters not a set of numbers. Character refrence makes you think of a character. These characters do often fit a similar narrative role. Saying the hardest mode community gets dibs on terms is a weird stance when there is plenty of players who are here for characters and story.
I feel like you either didn't watch the video or are engaging in bad faith, because I made it clear very early on that I do believe there are story based archetypes in addition to gameplay ones. I actually think story is an integral part of video games and make a lot of content focusing on the story aspects of fire emblem. However when talking about archetypes I believe in separating story ones and gameplay ones, to minimize confusion. You are welcome to disagree with that take however framing it as some sort of "hardest mode community" thing is just not an accurate representation of my feelings towards story.
me on my way to mess with doga
Oh no!
Can you please lmk what the FE1 romhack that played early on in the video is?
That's not a romhack, that's just fe1 0% growths
OH! Thank you