Pentagrams, the LBRP, and a Controversial Question [Esoteric Saturdays]
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
- 0:00 An overview of the history, meanings, and uses of the pentagram, one of the most well recognised symbols of esotericism.
4:43 A brief introduction to the LBRP (Lesser Banishing RItual of the Pentagram)
9:48 A question: did the Golden Dawn get it right?
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LBRP FAQ:
Q: *Why do you use a different pentagram direction from the one recommended by the Golden Dawn?*
A: (this video) czcams.com/video/x2m0FAyUmao/video.html
Q: *Why do you have Fire in the East?*
A: czcams.com/video/A_81XGIIG14/video.html
Q: *Why do you attribute Fire to Raphael and Air to Michael?*
A: czcams.com/video/gO5oUK-nhyc/video.html
Q: *Why do you keep Air in the South and Earth in the North after all?*
A: Community Post: czcams.com/users/postUgzz1UmhdkU6tVVgxER4AaABCQ
To answer some of your questions in the video first of all. Why spirit to earth for invoking earth? Because this ritual essentially reinforces the idea of God creating the earth. So to invoke you go from spirit to Earth. Further more, you asked why invoking starts one element away and why banishing starts on the element. My hunch I'd that when you're banishing you're already on that element, hence the need to banish it by moving away from it. Banishing water and invoking air seem to be the same, and arstetically they are. I think of it in terms of actual water or even birth. You 'banish' or exit the water or womb to take in air. Or evolution, we banished water as amphibians to take in air. Just a personal correspondence which makes sense of it for me. On the question of why deosil instead of windershins, I suppose we could look at it as a ritual that stretches forward in time to call on forces (God, the Archangels) which currently do not inhabit this plane of reality but we call them in to clear our temple. You're not wrong, we are invoking. But we are invoking spirit in the place of Earth. If you want to banish God and the spiritual, try Crowleys Star Ruby. This is done windershins (you circle the temple countet clockwise) and the forces invoked are of a pre Christian origins. Worth trying if only to learn the Greek. Also, you left out the qabalistic cross in your video!! The pillar of the ritual! Great content @foolishfish
What do we do about the active and passive pentagrams? Do we just omit them? In the Bornless ritual from Don Milo Duquettes book we draw active and passive pentagrams. Wondering if we can just omit the spirit pentagrams? Clockwise from the top active? Counter clockwise from the spirit point passive?
I direct the pentagram direction according to the element associated with each Angel - east / Raphael = air
South / Michael = fire
West / Gabriel = water
North / urial = earth
This is what I’ve learned from Israel regardie
I understand that we all amend the ceremony but to alter the elements and directions seems confusing to me and potentially … disruptive ?
@@velvetclaw2316 very disruptive. Don't do this if you don't understand why you'd do it. There's nothing wrong with Israel Regardie's directions, and I recommend sticking to them if you wish to follow the Golden Dawn's teachings further.
Direction question: when you open a door, it moves in a certain direction. When you close a door, it moves back into the other direction of when you opened it. It therefore makes a lot of sense.
As for the placement of the meanings, you think of them in the real life order rather than the spiritual order.
I would love you having a podcast and or at least having a conversation with Damien Echols or other modern magicians. I can just imagine the advanced conversations and stories you guys would talk about
😅 heh! You're very kind 😄 I'm just an amateur, really. I'll leave the big talk to those less foolish than this fish 😉 Thanks for the sweet words though!
Foolish Fish i really dont think you’re an amateur. You know a lot!
@@FoolishFishBooks Humility is a sign of a great magician :)
@@FoolishFishBooks which way did the fishy gooooooo ? 😆
Throwing intentional errors into instructions to keep unthinking or unqualified users out of the loop is a thing in advanced manuals for electrical controlled equiptment.
Right! I mean that definitely a possibility.... Thanks for the thought!
Also happens in the martial arts vids coming from china to the west....small errors so they know you learnt from a video not directly from a teacher....
@@dr.tamararussell9150 How interesting thanks for letting me know.
The DEA also does this--you can google "how to make LSD" and find results, but unless you can spot the small but crucial screwups you're not finding anything of much use. (If you ever read Behold a Pale Horse, that book asserts that social control systems are analagous enough to electrical conductivity that nothing need be explicitly printed on the topic of social control, because application of the principles of electrical systems to human ones is going to yield the same result... I'm not really in a position to test the truth of that notion, but it does spring to mind certain times in the course of reading history books or the news)
eccelent point, also notice how many sidgils look like the symbols on electrical scematics
Don't have an answer to this, but inconsistencies like these is what makes me personalize and alter many rituals or spells I do to make them more consistent and meaningful. Purists probably hate that approach but I think that's much better than performing a ritual that goes against its own principles
Right! Well, I'm very tempted to try the same. 😉
@@FoolishFishBooks Me too
@@jblakeblake5115 well I've been using an altered version of the lbrp for 3 months now to great effect. Check out the FAQ in the pinned comment at the top. 😁🙏
I feel that it’s all about the nature of intention. Energy follows intention. Intention is strengthened by repetition. When we do something once and we succeed, there is less friction in our intention when we go to do it again. Intention is also strengthened by rules because a rule is a consistent pattern. The Golden Dawn didn’t need the same reason for their ‘begin here’ rule because the intention was strong enough without it to achieve the effect. I could do the same effect as the LBRP with voodoo magic is if I was confident in the symbols and in my intentions. Thus, inconsistencies don’t matter much. We must choose the practice that seems most symbolically powerful to us in order to lend confidence to our intentions.
I agree you could draw a smily face in the air and if you knew that was an "invoking" smiley or a "banishing" smilely that would work.
I personally am partial to Foolish Fish's method.
Very well said!
Very well put, intention and belief are everything.
Well said , intention is key.
Yeha but would you not be feeding a container of your own intention and then dragging everyones intention to fill it up?
I have an idea for a solution that explains the GD system of directions for invoking/banishing. This is my speculation based on the way the elements change into each other from Agrippa:
Fire -> Air -> Water -> Earth.
It is also mentioned in Agrippa that the change happens both ways. If we want to add Spirit into the mix, we would need to add it before Fire and we would end up with the following:
Spirit Fire Air Water Earth (and after that we loop back to Spirit).
If we consider that Fire and Air are expansive/masculine their natural movement is clockwise, Water and Earth being magnetic/feminine would move counter clockwise. Spirit is both/neither so its movement depends on the other element involved. If we need to use the previous element to invoke the next and we take into consideration the natural movement of the elements the whole system makes sense.
We invoke Air from Water, so we need to use Water in this instance and follow its natural movement (counter clockwise).
We invoke Water from Air, so in this case we move in the opposite direction, because Air has an opposite polarity.
Fire and Earth are a bit different, because Spirit has both polarities (is above division, so can move both ways) and in this case the movement depends on the polarity of the element being invoked.
We only start with movements up down (north south) and left right (east west), never across (east south). This further confirms the polarity argument. Earth and Water have the same polarity so can't be used to act on each other. Same with Air and Fire. Only opposite polarities (and Spirit) can be used to create change.
To banish we just move in the opposite direction to the one we used to invoke any given element. So banishing is the same as invoking the following or preceding element, depending on the polarity of the element we are using to create the action.
This is the only way that I found where this system makes sense, but I am not very familiar with GD so I’m not sure how it fits with their other ideas about how the world works. I’m not sure if they use polarity when explaining elements. I treated this more like a riddle to be solved so I’m not sure if it’s very practical, but if anyone finds this useful I will be very happy :).
This is an interesting take, but it contradicts the relationship in the directions of the electric and magnetic fields. The electric and magnetic fields are always orthogonal (perpendicular / offset by 90 degrees) to one another. If there is some sort of rotation, say in circular polarization of light, the magnetic and electric fields both rotate in the same direction, just offset by 90 degrees.
An ongoing trend in more modern Grimoires is that the Golden Dawn was so focused on theatrics that they often missed certain details in their writings. Contradictions in instructions or between various books could be an example of this.
Like you I have often questioned the logic of tracing pentagrams by the method prescribed by the Golden Dawn. We know where the method originated: the attribution of elements to the points of the pentagram and the 'opening' and 'closing' directions for tracing them appear in the skeleton grade rituals set out in the GD cipher manuscript. It also includes the 'active' and 'passive' forms of the pentagram, so there is no doubt the lesser and greater pentagram rituals were worked up from the basic information in the cipher MS. 'Why' is a more difficult question to answer. Kenneth Mackenzie was the likely author of the cipher manuscript and might have based the pentagrams on something he found in some obscure masonic ritual, but we can't be certain. The best explanation I can offer is one given to me by my erstwhile mentor many years ago, when I first questioned the method. Instead of viewing the symbol as a pentagram, he told me, imagine it a pentalpha, or in other words interlocking capital letters A. From this perspective it has a certain logic to it, even if not entirely satisfactory. Try drawing it a few times and you'll see what I mean.
Here's the aforementioned Mackenzie on the pentalpha, from 'The Royal Masonic Cyclopaedia' (1877):
'The triple triangle of Pythagorus, thus called because it shows the form of Alpha - the letter A - in five different positions. The number five formed by the union of the first odd and the first even is of peculiar value. It was regarded as a talisman, as a preservative from danger, and inscribed on the threshold of a door, it kept out evil spirits. … The early Christians considered that it referred to the five wounds of Christ. In Masonry, it forms the outline of the five-pointed star.'
BTW, there's a scholarly article on the LBRP by Graham John Wheeler that will appear in the next 'Correspondences' journal that might be of interest, advance version available to download here:
correspondencesjournal.com/19601-2/
HTH.
Thank you very much for this very intereting doorway into enquiry. And I'm really enjoying that article... thank you!
Thankyou for taking the time to make these videos. They are very informative. And have also given me much to ponder.
I am inexpressibly grateful for your channel. Thank you.
But it does actually make sense to perform banishing LBRP clockwise, since the intention is to banish everything exept whats in the circle or whats intended to stay. In this case it seems to me that we are invoking the 4 elements in order to banish and protect.
A fresh new FF video and some coffee. What a way to start a Saturday!
Haha! Enjoy your day! 😜☕
your channel is awesome! as a being who loves the otherworldly, it is the best and i love knowledge in the ways that you seem to express and share. keep putting your interests and curiosities out there, it is good to relate the curiosities and the interests!
Again a very nice video :)
I only discovered your channel some days ago and now i can´t stop watching your videos, thank you for your great work :)
Another great video, and yes I've always wondered the same myself. It's both counter intuitive, and it takes longer to learn, especially when trained in other paths first, and you are taught deosil and widdershins, and it's one direction to invoke, and the other to banish, to retrain yourself under the golden dawn system after that, made it more difficult, but extremely rewarding, keep up the good work, and good questions 💜💜💜💜💜
And finally, your expose on the correct order of the elements going from most dense to less dense of Earth > Water > Air > Fire is absolutely spot on and my subconscious has totally accepted this. I am also accepting the "updated" attribution to the godname as follows Yod = Fire, Heh = Air, Vav = Water , Heh = earth. And linking this to the movement when drawing the pentagram was awe inspiring....can't understand why I didnt see this myself :-) It makes total sense...that is relating the movement of the pentagram starting at Earth, then to Water , then to Air then to Fire....it's also a great way to help memorise the assignments of the elements to the pentagram. To conclude, I found this video of yours to be full of gems and I am glad I watched it multiple times :-)
Thank you for sharing your knowledgable thoughts with us on here.
love this, something i may be able to share to my mom so she understands it a little better...Thank you so much...this is great...
I immediately thought of draining water from a tub and the fact that air would fill the space water previously occupied. Just a thought. Love your content!
I first started with the LBRP with the traditional GD method explained by Donald Kraig. But when confronted with the heptagram planetary banishing and invoking methods, I also started to look back and wanted a uniform method with both pentagram and heptagram invoking/banishing methods. This led to me agreeing with Aurum Solis' conclusion which you describe in this video that works consistently for both pentagram and heptagram invoking/banishing...that is for invoking start at the element/planet and go clockwise and for banishing start at the element/planet and go anti clockwise. My subconscious is already thanking me for the consistency it brings. Furthermore, I do like the GD advanced rituals where they include spirit passive and spirit active pentagrams; however I replace these according to the A.S. suggestion of : if you are invoking an element then it should be preceded with an invoking spirit pentagram (starting at spirit going clockwise), and if you are banishing an element then it should be preceded by a banishing spirit pentagram (starting at spirit going anticlockwise). Anyone please feel free on commenting on the pros and cons of replacing the "paradigm of active/passive spirti" with 'invoking or banishing spirit as appropriate. Also, keep in mind that I DO NOT replace active spirit with invoking spirit and I DO NOT replace passive spirit with banishing spirt; what i do is a pair the invoking spirit pentagram with an invoking element pentagram and I pair a banishing spirit pentagram with a banishing element pentagram.
Fantastic video, I have many of the same concerns about the LBRP. Great reading recommendations!
Just found this channel really enjoy it
I definitely agree with the clockwise/counterclockwise confusion. Great video
i do agree with you're idea of going counter clock wise with the circle and have actually adopted it into my work 👍👍
You are expressing exactly what I have always felt to be wrong but could never articulate myself. I strongly suspect that your explanation is correct.
I absolutely agree with your point of view... when there's a doubt, there is an explanation. Therefore, we are in conscious mind operating fashion. A ritual must de displayed with a predominant unconscious component, so, the intuitivity must lead the actions. Something that goes subterraneanly wrong, that lacks consistency, will always be an obstacle to fluid operation. And, as Leonardo said, bad pupil is the one that cannot correct the master... I certainly will follow your observation in both invoking and banishing, and pay more attention to every step that results in flow cuts... thanks a lot for your sharp view!
Hey D.P, re. the LBRP, in his book Archangels of Magick Damon Brand talks about reattributing the Archangels to different cardinal directions (apparently based on 1st century Jewish Prayers). You should check it out and let me know what you think.
Regarding the Golden Dawn, they didn't have access to the information we have now (e.g Mathers 'Sacred Magic' working from a flawed French text of Abramelin) so I think it's quite possible that many of their passed down details that we take as 'gospel' are in fact inaccurate. This is just my opinion, but I think the field can always use further scholarship and alternative perspectives.
I think this might be one of the most sensible answers so far, actually. You're right. Mathers _didn't_ have access to perfect sources. And his Abramelin is a lasting testament to that fact. Thank you so much! I think I owe you a beer, at least! 😄🍻
@@FoolishFishBooks My pleasure :) I'll be sure to take you up on that one day :)
My mind is blown. I've been reading the Archangels of Magick, and I am completely sold. The evidence of early Jewish prayers placing Michael to the right, Gabriel to the left, Uriel before, Raphael behind _makes total sense_ (assuming facing the North, not the East).
_Of course_ the direction of the rising sun is Fire, and in opposition to it's alchemical opposite Water.
The very recent change comes from Eliphas Levi, and, all due respect to him for being, like Mathers, Crowley and Regardie after him, a custodian of the tradition without whom I would have _none_ of this information, it nevertheless follows that one person can make mistakes, intentional or not, and we have to be critical of the information on which we base our practice, otherwise we have no advantage over other organised religion followers.
Thank you again for this. It will change my practice without a doubt!
@@FoolishFishBooks I’m very happy that I could aid you in your practice Dennis. Your videos have been a great help to mine and it’s gratifying to be able to reciprocate in some way. We’re all trying to untangle this mysterious jigsaw…we each have little pieces of the puzzle to contribute and hopefully the sum can be greater than the parts!
I definitely agree, Michael (Fire) to the East makes much more intuitive sense, as does facing North for some reason (perhaps its due to the way the cardinal directions are perceived on the compass rose; North being ‘up’ is an intuitive starting point, with the other directions being relative to that anchor). And yes, Fire should be positioned in opposition to Water. It all feels more comfortable to my sensibilities at least.
Be well my friend.
@@MrGunwitch This also falls more in line with the Cold/Moist/Hot/Dry scheme put forth by the Ancient Greeks. Somewhat outside the realm of Ceremonial Magick, many Traditional Craft and Witches use this Elemental layout.
Completely agree but golden dawn always gave and still gives me the feeling of deliberate disinformation to seed chaos on purpose so i have steered clear of it since the first time i held the book at 17 yrs old and proceeded to pass out - have always trusted that unexplainable physical reaction to a printed book/manual. Also quite like this comment preceeding...
Inevitably doing rituals guided by my heart and gut, just doing things by Feeling the pathway and years later i will come across information that explains things i didnt consciously know but was clearly tuned into subconsciously - often it feels more like my ancestors working thru me which i find amazing and awesome since i have hardly any positive living familial connections. Trust yer gut is all im saying.
That's really fascinating. May I ask, what do you think of the RWS tarot deck? My readings with the Radiant version told me it was created to spread absolute truth to the masses, democratise it and make it accessible. But it is heavily influenced by the Golden Dawn... does it feel the same to you?
Pentagrams are drawn that way in the Golden Dawn because they split spirit into "active" and "passive" forms (which I find oxymoronic - spirit is the monad, it's indivisible). You draw the first line toward the element to invoke, away from the element to banish. The A.'.S.'. method makes much more sense imo.
It's mentioned in the video.
I think this is one of those counter intuitive correspondences that the Golden Dawn used. If you see the elemental grades and the Sephirot they reside in, you will be equally bothered. But I think the explanation I was told for that applies here as well. The direction is not what is important in this case but rather the relationship between the elements involved in the operation. In the case of invoking and banishing air, air and water are seen as opposites (rationality vs emotions). Perhaps when you are invoking one it is at the expense of the other? But if you take a look at the elemental grades and how they have been paired with Sephirot you will notice the same contrasting elements. The rational there was to provide counterbalance.
Well, this is my assumption as well (at least a possibility) that there is some counter intuitive reason. I just can't work out what it would be...
But your (tenuous 😜) contrasting of air (hot wet) and water (cold wet) (surely hot wet air is the opposite of cold dry earth, and cold wet water the opposite of hot dry fire, but this isn't what I'm getting at) has got me thinking: there is a direct 'branch' extending from water to air (the wet siblings), but not from earth to fire (the dry siblings) - the shortest route from one to the other is via spirit... I wonder if this is a clue.
This was absolutely interesting. Thank you very much.
Thanks very much for hard work 🎉❤
I've also been working on some changes to the LBRP.
Primarily, I wanted to make the aeathetic change of translating the entire thing into Hebrew. But in the process I made some changes as well.
For starters, I went back to the material which I believe is the source material for the LBRP.
1. A prayer called The Bedtime Sh'mah (which invokes the Archangels.
2. A translation of the doxology at the end of the Lord’s Prayer, into Hebrew. Which parallels the Kabalistic cross.
3. 1 Chronicles 29:11 which is the source of or reference to the Sephiroth on the Tree of Life. And is the source material for both the Kabalistic Cross, and the doxology at the end of the Lord’s Prayer.
The Hebrew translation of the doxology in the Lord’s prayer reads,
Le-kha, Ha-mam-le-kha
V'he-gevurah, V'he-tiferet
L'o-lemei, L'o-lameem
Amen
The two most notable differences from the LBRP are:
Atah (you) is replaced by Le-kha (to you
And V'he-Gedolah (Greatness) is replaced by V'he-tiferet (Beauty).
First. I kept Le-kha, because Atah is simply the relative pronoun "you" - Not exactly a word of power. So - not a big deal - perhaps.
Next, I changed v'he-tiferet back to v'he-Gedulah, because of the order of the sephirot on the tree of life and in 1 Chronicles 29:11 which follows the same path (with gevurah followed by Gedulah and tiferet on the middle pillar as you cross back descending toward netzach.)
Then, adapting the Hebrew bedtime prayer, for invoking the archangels, which reads:
B'shaim Adonai Elohai Israel, mimini Michael, umis'moli Gabriel, umilfanai Uriel, umai'achorai Raphael, v'al roshi sh'ckinat ail
I simply moved the order of directions and to reflect those in the Kabalistic Cross.
Much of these are just aesthetic changes,for myself, because I've also been concerned about messing up correspondences. Though the changes you've made give me confidence that this might not be a bad idea.
I've noticed if you mentioned some people switching Michael and Raphael. This would bring them into the same order as they are in the bedtime Sh'mah.
This would be important to me, if one or the other tradition is right about which angels correspond to which cardinal directions. If I move them, should the colors stay where they are, or move with their angels.
You said you made Raphael red, and this would happen automatically if he moved.
For the time being - I am only considering this.
Finally, I've also wondered about the particular names of God chosen for the cardinal directions in the ritual.
1. To the East: YHVH
2. To the South: ADONIA
3. To the East: EHYEH
4. To the North: AGLA
One thing I notice is that these are not 4 different names for God, but two versions of the name "I Am" and two versions of the name Adonai (title LORD). I wonder if this is intentional? The positioning may suggest that it is. (I Am is before and behind, while Lord is to the left and right).
If this is not intentional though, but mere repetition - then there are 7 names for God in Judaism which are considered so holy that they must not be erased.
• YHWH.
• El.
• Eloah.
• Elohim.
• Elohai.
• El Shaddai.
• Tzevaot.
• Jah.
So I have been working with the following arrangement.
1. To the East: YHVH (He is)
2. To the South: Elohim (God)
3. To the East: El Shaddai (God Almighty)
4. To the North: El Tzevaot (God of Hosts)
I like El Tzevaot because it specifically refers to God as the commander of Angels - which fits with the angelic invocation later in the ritual.
So. I should probably end this already too long comment. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
This is great. I like your changes and the trains for them 😊 had some concerns about replacing ve'gevurah with ve'tipphereth, but I see you changed that back.
Good work!
Thank you for a thoughtful video. I purchased and read Regardie's "The Golden Dawn" when I was 12. Shortly after, I purchased books on Aurum Solis magick as well as Donald Tyson's New Magus. I thought a lot about what they had to say and I set to work learning the medieval and classical thinking from before the GD. My solution for your controversial question is slightly different, but has served me well. I am not ready to present it yet, but I will.
Been 2 years (perhaps even more) from your comment. You ready to present it now?
Love and look forward to all your videos, very insightful:)
So glad you like them! Thanks for your very kind comment :)
So interesting. Best I had come up with is spirit comes to earth (origin) so pulling it into being, air becomes water, condensation (origin) again pulling it into being, nope, I have nothing. Yes discression in practice indeed. I wish you all well with all this.
The Eagle is the prefered symbol for Scorpio(fixed water sing) in the Golden Dawn system.
Indeed 😊
Exactly!
thank you for the book recommendations
love your videos, thank you
You are so welcome! :) Thanks for watching!
This absolutely makes sense, a pertinent question! 😁👍🏻
In the book of Genesis, when it describes how life and the universe is created, spirit was already there and from source, the great spirit manifest the realms into existence. Spirit realm(aether) is the starting point of the elements.
Awesome Confirmation ☺️💖☯️
Hi there, Danny. Very generic question about the use of the LIRP and LBRP. I am using both, and just want to see if the way I am doing it is an acceptable practice.
As an Orthodox Christian, I am finding that so many of the magick rituals are very compatible with our prayers. So what I've been doing every morning is to start my day with our Morning Prayers. About 5 minutes into that, part of the prayers said is the Lord's prayer. Immediately following the line "and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" I go right into the LIRP. Then reading of some Psalms. Then I do a meditative practice which includes imagining white smoke coming in to me when I inhale, and exhaling grayish/ blackish smoke. At the end of that exercise (about 10 to 20 minutes), I then go into the LBRP, to banish all the negative energies that I exhaled with the gray smoke. Then close in some final prayers.
Just curious, in your opinion, does this sound like a reasonable order and practice?
I think this is very beautiful!
I don't see anything wrong with it mechanically, if that's what you mean?
I also firmly believe that most of Ceremonial Magic is compatible with a Christian faith and life, though it's an unpopular belief ;)
@@FoolishFishBooks Thank you, Denis. Yes, that was exactly what I meant. And I 100% agree with you about Ceremonial Magic being compatible with Christianity, in spite of the prevailing opposite understanding in most churches. The deeper I go into both (really, to me they are one, more than a "both") I find more and more parallels that only strengthens this understanding in me. Thank you for your confirming words.
Oh man, I should have watched this before the other LBRP video I commented on. Yeah, this is something that bothered me too, when I saw a video someone else did about a sort of "A" pattern that people are apparently supposed to follow. It didn't make sense. Going clockwise/counterclockwise from the element you are focusing on is far more realistic than "Do this exact same version for two entirely different things." I'm 100% on board with you here.
As usual great vidoe my thing is that everything should start at spirit.
The invocation and banishing of the elements are to be taken as literal and so are correct. The LBRP is a banishing of everything else, done through invoking the elements. As for the directions the importance is not on point of origin but that the energy is drawn ‘into’ the active point before being dragged through the remaining pentagram. When you banish it the element is already present and so you start at that point and drag it through its banishing path until spent. All personal experience just for clarity.
This is exactly what I was thinking too with the directions. Moving towards for invoking, and moving away from what you want to banish.
Interesting...
Because that's not what the GD's method state, is it? The basic LBRP is well known to be a banishing of the Earth element, and Earth is chosen for its property of containing all three other elements. Looking at the four invoking and four banishing rituals in the GD papers, you can clearly see that the pentagram starting in the bottom left hand corner rising first to Spirit, is stated to be the banishing of Earth.
At least that's what is stated by GD...
So if anything, _if_ we abide by GD's rules, it's a banishing of all elements, not a banishing "of everything else, done through invoking the elements" as you suggested.
But...
If we use the Deosil/Widdershins theory, however, then suddenly you're right - the effect of the pentagram as described by the L_B_RP should, in fact _invoke_ Earth, and not banish it... You may be onto something after all :D
Foolish Fish hence the ‘personal experience’ caveat :) My own method is to always take a practice and ascertain the theory myself as I am rarely satisfied with many explanations. It’s great to see someone questioning what they read and seeking out the answers.
woah always wondered what those blue flames swirling in my thoughts were for lmao
I think that the rule of when casting a spell comes to mind, one must remember that what you are casting will come back to you in some form or fashion. Hence, possibly, that it is his missing piece of information in which we forget that karma plays role in magic as well as banishing.
For instance, when casting from Earth, your direction to Spirit is the first step, thus making the second Fire, third Air, fourth Water, and finally back where you started, Earth being the fifth.
thank you very much ! :)
It is still done clockwise so as to no banish the archangels you are about to call forth. Source:The Magick of Thelema by Lon Milo Duquette
Thank you for another great video. I always found it interesting that the Golden Dawn Pentagram method is different from the Hexagram method, which is drawn the way the Aurum Solis Pentalpha is drawn. The Golden Dawn method does provide more variations. Despite having its own method for drawing the Pentalpha, Aurum Solis rituals calls for it a lot less. The Aurum Solis Pentalpha is definitely more streamlined, and is more subtle in its effect, in my experience.
For the Golden Dawn Pentagrams that are mirror images of each other, the glyphs drawn in the middle is a way of differentiating the Pentagram as already mentioned, and so is seeing the Pentagram in the Elemental color; if using a Golden Dawn wand (such as Lotus, Phoenix, Chief Adept's) using the proper color band; and even whether you use the sign of the Enterer after drawing the Pentagram (banishing) or just "pierce the eye of Yahweh" (invoking).
Also there is a wide variation on the use of clockwise and counter-clockwise movements depending on the tradition.
Ah! Thank you! This is very useful :)
What does “pierce the eye of Yahweh” mean?
@@paulaivana8448 After drawing a Pentagram, pointing your finger/Wand/Dagger in the middle of the Pentagram before you continue the Circle to the next Pentagram.
Very interesting perspective. Been doing the LBRP for a few years now and I really like the added insight on it.
To add to the confusion, regarding your question, some systems will give you correspondances (not sure whether this word makes proper english sense ;p) between the angels you're invoking in the second part of the ritual and the elements. What I've been wondering is should we invoke/banish elements at each corresponding direction?
Also can't really provide much answer to your question, sadly, never asked myself this question before but it does open some interesting avenues for research.
Well _that's_ an interesting thought... Of course, wouldn't it make sense to face North/Uriel to invoke or banish Earth? I mean, at least I can see a _possible_ reason for always facing East, the direction of the rising sun for every ritual... but then, we don't _always_ face, east, do we? I wonder how much obfuscation is going on... or if I'm just missing some information! :D
Thanks for your contribution, in any case! :)
Very true. Plus in some systems, they say visualise the angels holding sword/shield/cups/wands BUT the element association I saw in those was different than the one presented in the tarot which boggles me. I need to hit the books :D
In any case, great video :)
at about 14:55 where you were talking about invoking air and banishing water, i just had a thought. in this physical realm, if you physically remove water, then air will expand and move to fill its place.(assuming you have some sort of open container and nothing else will fall into it or something)
>starting the invocation of earth at spirit
in alchemy the spirit is the bridge that connects your soul to your physical body(which can be seen as the element of earth, but at the same time according to the scientists your body is like 70% water, and of course you have air in your lungs too)
>starting the invocation of fire at spirit
well in naruto, there is chakra as a form of energy, which seems to be very similar to spirit, and as a "form" it is blue and fiery for almost every human charachter in the show.
>invoking air we have to start at water
hmm well the idea i just had is that in that direction youre going there, fire comes after air, and if you reverse it you should have the opposite of fire. and at a very cold temperature air becomes a liquid.
>invoking water we have to start at air
water is also the emotions, and everything begins in the mind
(my thought) in order to really have emotions you must first be able to think about your emotions.
Speculating, I would have some suspicion on Agrippas attributes to the elements and to say that perhaps when invoking you moving from one of the worlds of formation or its energy and then condensing it into that form? (Speaking of the Kabalah) Also the opposite for banishing, saying that basically you are neutralizing the energy with something that holds dominance over it? I'm not 100% another place to look would definitely be Initiation to Hermetics, where Bardon makes the point of explaining the relation between the elements, be it their qualities or behavior. (You know like negative, positive, cold hot etc) Great videos btw
I /love/ this video. I've gotten the ebook version of the Middle Pillar by Israel Regardie but I haven't taken the time to read it (I think it's hard to absorb on a Kindle I wish I had a hardcopy). I'd have some of these questions you had too.
Actually, I read the Middle Pillar on Kindle - Made for very interesting commutes to work a little while back :) It's quite a challenge to stay sitting when all you want to do is stand up in the middle of the tram and try it all out XD
@@FoolishFishBooks that's exactly how I feel and I also couldn't "picture" it right so I felt like I needed to do it on the spot. Your LBRP discussions here have helped me understand it better hahaha thank you!!!
I for one think that more important than everybody doing The same exact movements and mind acts dogmatically is that one does the ritual in a way that guides him/her to the right mind state. In ways that Make sense, resonate to oneself/the group and the intention.
Brilliant.
This channel has literally the best comments section on the tube🧘🏼♂️
I couldn't agree more! 🤩 All the best comments from the best viewers ♥️
@@FoolishFishBooks people here are looking in a similar direction and helping each other! A rare thing these days…keep at it FF 👌🏻
I'm still fairly new to all this but this is the exact stuff i have had confusion on because it would seem intuitive but it always feels like I'm doing it wrong.
Two things:
I know this is a year later and probably a few people have mentioned something similar already, but, in Steve Blamires' book The Irish Celtic Magical Tradition: Ancient Wisdom of the Battle of Moytura, he mentions that Air and Water are kinda the same thing on a spiritual level. I always figured that this was a way to shoehorn the more druidic seeming 3 worlds (Earth, Sea, and Sky or conversely Earth, Water, and Fire) into 4 elements, but maybe there is some kind of logic to it after all. Blamires basically presents a series of internal journeys where you interact with figures from Irish mythology, and the first four are the sages of the four cities that the Tuatha De Danann learned their skills from and took four magical artefacts from. So, here they are in the order of sage, city, and artefact: Morfessas, Falias, The Stone of Fál which cries out when the rightful king of Ireland touches it; Esras, Gorias, The Spear of the god Lugh; Uiscias, Findias, and the Sword of Light belonging to the god Nuada; and finally Semias, Murias, and the Cauldron of the god Dagda. The corresponding elements are easy to deduce based on the items from each city. Where it gets interesting is in the names of the sages. They're difficult to parse because they were intentionally archaicked up by slapping on -as endings, which seemed ancient to the Irish monks speaking Old and Middle Irish. Morfessas might mean "Great Knowledge" for example, but we can't be 100% sure. But Uiscias is the sage of the city of Findias, the one associated with air. The modern Irish word uisce means water. And I think I read somewhere else that I can't remember at this moment, that Semias has some implication like "scattering" like the winds would.
Now that I rambled about that, I wanted to ask what you thought about the difference between 'grams and 'gons. I know Regardie's Golden Dawn says basically that grams are for concentrating and gons are for dispersing, which seems to me like invoking and banishing, but I haven't seen (or noticed) any further elaboration on that other than seeing the phrase "the 'gon initiateth the whirl" which seems like some kind of pseudoarchaic ridiculousness I would have written when I was 15--and it also doesn't clarify a single thing. If it's the case that one concentrates and the other disperses, why are there invoking and banishing forms of the 'grams?
Re: the question, I know it's a "banishing ritual," but it pretty well consists of invoking the Archangels, supposing I guess that their presence cancels out anything else, like multiplying by zero.. I know you've reviewed 72 Demons of Magick on this channel, or at least mentioned it, I forget--but you'll remember that one has a sort of alternate LBRP starting you facing North, with its own reasons for that, and anyway it's impressed upon us over and over again that really rituals and physical implements are all just tools towards intentionality, and that ultimately it's intention more than any truly "external" elements which makes magick happen, or anything else. Not to harp on the one book overmuch, but it even uses a sort of bowdlerized Hebraic at one point because the slightly mistaken form has got a more commonplace usage in English and Western esotericism, and that built up energy behind it is considered more important/worthy of access than the actual academic truth, because that information is part of a much thinner niche, and in the Rupert-Sheldrake-morphogenic field/Jungian-collective sense of things *that more popular wrong version* has more power because it has more living human history. My dad had a friend who was such a proficient meditator he could bring himself to orgasm just by mental effort--not that either of us ever asked him to prove it, to be fair he could have been lying about the whole thing, but you gotta wonder why would he haha. Anyway. Mind over matter is what I'm saying, gross family friend notwithstanding.
Thinking outside the circle so to speak,
Could the Golden Dawns way of banishing being clockwise to the practioner be because on the outside of the circle looking inward, make it a counterclockwise pentagram, and thus banishing that which is surrounding the practioner? Clockwise to practioner, counterclockwise to energies?
I am new to this and definitely want a good and solid way to begin the work.
Any feedback from anyone on this would be greatly appreciated, Thank you for the awesome videos.
Is it possible the LBR Pentagrams are drawn this way because the “banishment” is accomplished by invocation of the Archangels (Spirit) and not the magician’s “own energy?” That is my reading of it. I do not know why the LIR Pentagrams are counterclockwise, though. I plan to experiment with swapping M and R’s position, but Ive been getting extremely clear visualizations of A and G where they are traditionally placed and don’t want to tinker. (Zealotor sign from A before I knew to expect it, spoken words and touch from G, have had extreme experiences of R and M, but mostly outside of the ritual. I’ve had M, A, and G all fully manifested without being invoked; M on a porch where I had placed an altar, A in all sorts of places, and G in my oratory without having been invoked.
The first idea about invoking the divine energy or archangels (to banish evil) was what I thought also when I watched this video.
Now I get what the song "widdershin jig" by skyclad is about
In your opinion, what would be the ideal route for a beginner who's considering a Golden Dawn-esque system of self-initiation? Is it the books written by the Ciceros? Or the books written by Denning & Phillips? Or the books written by Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki? Or some other author maybe?
I think it probably depends on what you're looking for. Authenticity to the GD system? Then I think John Michael Greer's books are excellent, I haven't read the Ciceros' book, but as the current curators of the GD, I'm sure it will be great. Personally, for the reasons outlined in this video and in the comments here, I think I trust the Denning/Phillips Ogdoadic system more as they had access to better/more complete primary sources than Mathers did when he and his gang we're creating the GD. Personnel preference 😉👍
Just a question about the directions. What are your thoughts on using reversed directions when you are in the southern hemisphere?
As a general rule when casting a circle in the northern hemisphere it is done in a clockwise direction, while we people in the southern hemisphere do it in an anticlockwise direction.
In fact, I'm all for personalising any ritual to be as congruent as possible with what you feel is right 😊👍
I have thought you invoke air through water because everything in our mind has an emotional lense on it, thus starting at water, and i think emotions require you to process them in your mind as well, meaning that just switched, idk im a beginner just a thought
17:01 You have valid arguments here, but what I though is that the element from which invocation starts matters. To invoke Earth or Fire, you go through Spirit. Also noted that invoking water and air were paired, meaning the invocation starts reflected.
As for banishing, you're returning. You go back using that same opposing/paired element.
But yeah, speculation and hmmm.. partly experience as there goes on more than the visualization of the pentagram, altering mind state, so this could be the tuning. Will try.
I include Yeshua (pointing at the chest/solar plexus) in the Qabalistic cross before Malkuth (pointed at the crotch/ground). It feels... right, somehow (at least for me) as a Catholic monastic/hermetic.
I have done the same
Very interesting, thank you for this information. Have you checked it with the Chinese Feng Shui System? In that system one element feeds the next one. e.g. Wood feeds Fire, Fire feeds Earth, Earth feeds Metal, Metal feeds Water, Water feeds Wood. And the one element skipped in the circle is consuming. This seems logical but how this translates into the Golden Dawn System, I don't know. Maybe you find a clue here?
Great,
I'm just taking a stab, but could the direction you invoke and banish be related to the direction you are facing? Like do they "connect" in some way or do they have to do with the direction itself?
I just found out that widdershins and dossil differ depending on the hemisphere you are in... so could it somehow be related to which hemisphere you are facing or that a certain hemisphere is somehow represented?
(My knowledge on this is VERY limited. So as I said, it's just a guess as to why the clockwise/counterclockwise isnt consistent.
If you wanted to invoke or banish spirit, would you draw it in all four directions? And if so, which direction would you start in. Or would you add other elements in the other 3 directions?
You do not invoke or banish spirit. It is in and between all things. Like the glue holding all the other elements together.
I'm just beginning my journey into the world of ceremonial magick and your videos have been fantastic guideposts for where to begin. I was curious: is there a ceremony by which I can consecrate the implements for my altar to remove any unwanted energy BEFORE taking on something like the LBRP? Or is the LBRP itself a way to consecrate/prepare my altar and other ritual implements?
I'd say the LBRP is generally considered to be the bread and butter of most ceremonial magic, and it's the first ritual taught by all the schools that teach it. It would be a part of any consecration ceremony, and rather a tool to enable the consecration rather than the opposite.
I don't use any dagger for the LBRP, but rather use one or two pointed fingers, (two for describing the pentagrams, one for vibrating the names of God, though that may be personal preference).
@@FoolishFishBooks Thank you for the swift reply! I know that ceremonial magick certainly doesn't have to be about the hardware, so I'm glad to hear that's your take on getting started. The idea of using a wand to focus my energy resonates with me, so that's the direction that I see myself going, but the wand I've procured is an antique (therefore, not of my creation) and I hesitate to use it without attuning to it somehow.
After asking you, I did stumble upon something of an answer (thank goodness for Google and PDF searches!) in Crowley's 'Magick in Theory and Practice,' in which he writes: "The method of consecration is very simple. Take the wand, or
the holy oil, and draw upon the object to be consecrated the supreme symbol of the force to which you dedicate it." This seems like a pleasantly simple answer to what I feared might be a more complicated question, but I think combining the physical (anointing with oil and physical scribing) with the metaphysical (performing the LBRP) seems like a deeply satisfying method.
Hello.Don t quote me on this but maybe the explanaition can be found in mc gregor mathers ._.I think he was the one to explain the superimposition of the pentagram in the zodiac
The information is in the keys of solomon
Crowley changes the circumambulatin direction in the ruby star ritual.._.Maybe that s the reason ? Thank you
I've read that Crowley would insert "blinds" (intentional errors) into his texts to foil the uninitiated. It makes me wonder if this isn't some of the same that has been transmitted to other texts. However, in a magical system, wouldn't what makes the most sense to the operator be the more correct technique?
perhaps its a misdirection for the inquisitive mind to decipher..a sort of lips of wisdom are closed except to the ears(or eyes) of understanding..not sure how the golden dawn feels about self initiation and obscuring facts dilutes the power..many would probably get lost in a sea of doubt at the conundrum..
Thanks for introducing Mysteria Magica, this actually makes a lot of sense! I think I'm going to start using that system.
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My favorite description of The symbol of the Pentagram is from Eliphias Levi's Dogma and Ritual. He says 4 symbolizes the physical world because one needs 4 points in space to orient themselves and also the world is made of the 4 elements. 5 is the sign of a magician because it symbolizes Will over the World (elements).
5 is also quintessence, 5th element, aether, 5 is the hand of the philosopher, the 5th chakra represents communication of truth, 5 represents change and freedom, freeing the 1 from the 4 (spirit of man rising from the tomb of matter, the hierophant, the Christ) Attuning the lesser self with the greater self. Those who have lived through the laws of the 4 (elements, matter) and mastered them become the 5 (5th element, spirit) - liberated from the casket of matter (thank you Manly P Hall).
I would guess it's something as simple "stepping into the element" in order to invoke, and stepping away from what we want to banish. I guess ideally you would always start from spirit, which makes a straight line to earth or fire, but to get to air or water you'd have to start at its opposite angle. Not sure about the clockwise/counter thing though.
The 4 signs are the fixed signs, and in this diagram they appear in the order as they do throughout the year.
Taurus, the first of earth, the child - Leo, the second of fire, the adolescent or adult - Aquarius, the third of air, the elder.
Scorpio is the eagle as represented on the Wheel of Fortune card, and also on the paperback cover to Book 4.
Scorpio comes last, possibly because if there were a significance to the widdershins direction, Water would come last on the star, assuming you start from spirit.
It seems like there might be more answers in examining the Wheel Of Fortune.
Now I got confused 😐
But thanks, great video 🙂👍
Can you do a video on Manly P. Hall one of the greatest of all
I also becone confused by the seeming contradictions so now I do all my banishing pentagrams as earth pentagrams and all my invoking ones as spirit - this for me is to keep consistency and perhaps form an egregore over time - that’s the idea anyway
can someone tell me what criteria one uses to decide which element to either invoke or to banish 0 pretty basic I suppose... up until now I have only practiced the LBRP - thank you to anyone who can point me in the right direction
I’ve been doing the LBRP for years and even though it works immediately after I’m finished I still get boggled down by curses, other people etc so it’s like what’s the point? or what am I doing wrong that is making the ritual less effective and able to withstand anything and everything the whole day? I think I need to upgrade my protection ritual to maybe the rose cross? Or the supreme pentagram ritual? Also, I’ve noticed a bit of apathy with myself and life after about 6 months of continuous lbrp with solely the earth pentagram.
Meant to add that I’m commenting before watching the video :p
I came up with a sign called Anarchopentagram. Just draw five A-narchy logos in right way and you end up with a larger pentagram with a smaller one inside in opposing direction. ;-)
You have inspired me to ditch the elements in this pentagram completely and work with Chinese elements instead.
These already have the concept of "invoking/banishing" in them in the forrm of "generating/overcoming" which is not only different in direction, but in the entire sequence...
👍 yup , and they have metal .
For me, it is alchemic in and of itself. For example, when water is banished/evaporates, it becomes air when air comes together it rains and creates water so to me it makes perfect sense of the directions of banishing in an invocation as well with the fire and earth elements.
Similarly, some are feminine energies and some are masculine, so why not go counterclockwise for those energies and clockwise for the other
And according to the seven hermetic principles, each carry the seed for each other therefore, I believe you could also go clockwise and be feminine and go counterclockwise, and still be masculine as I believe these polarities may seem to be fixed, but are actually in fact fluid
I'm a visual learner by fault. There's no temple near me or anyone, so you would be the closest thing to a teacher I have lol.
I see the issue in when it comes to banishing, and the comment you left earlier has eased my worries.
When I Invoke I start in the south. When starting the pentagram. I do Earth to Spirit, fire, air, water, and finally to earth
When banishing for instance. I use fire in the east, water in the west. (Though since I'm eastern US I may put water in the east and fire in the west. This will be attempted much later on after I'm more comfortable)
To banish. For instance Air. I face the north. Begin at Air, fire, spirit, earth, water, and finally back to air.
It feels more fluid to me and not so contradicting to me as you have pointed out.
See 'Liber O" p.283 in "Gems of the Equinox" for the most up to date (!?!) info on LBRP.
Thanks for the tip! :)
The reasoning for the points of origin and directions are given at the bottom of page 361, and page 362.
On the water to air I can only think that maybe because some ppl have said that air is water really just in a different form.. 🤔
Very great points!
Thanks @Middle Name! 😊
just from what I have read, and please do correct me if I am wrong, but I believe to remember that the two point going upwards in the satanic upside-down pentagram represent duality. or at least thats what laVey says
I also like you reasoning for changing the elemental directions. You make a very convincing case indeed :-) However, I have the GD traditions so ingrained in me that......well lets say you can't teach an ol dog new tricks lol. Perhaps it's because my archangels are lazy and are so comfortable in their houses/directions that they do not wanna move. It's as if they have crystallised overtime in the directions that I assigned to them way back when :-)
Good
It’s best to keep this simple as possible and use this ritual for banishing unwanted or malevolent spirits or to ‘call in’ spirits you want to work with! I won’t go into the prayer at the beginning and assigning the angels to the four quarters as that’s another completely different story in itself! Suffice to say that you start in the east going to south, west north and back to east. At each point visualise your pentagram in blue and if your banishing a spirit then start your pentagram at earth drawing up to spirit! To evoke or call in spirits then start from spirit and draw down to earth!!! It’s symbolising that you want the spirit to either go away from this plain of existence or signalling to spirits that you want them to come to this plain of existence! Does that make sense?
What about left hand versed right hand
A deliberate flaw they put in the book to catch people out.