I was taught many years ago (about 49) that you should completely rough out all your surfaces and major holes/bores before starting to finish a job. That has saved my arse many times. Kap
I read the title and was expecting a video on the emotional stress of machining. Judging from the complexity of the parts you machine as well as the large dollar figures of the machine, tooling and materials you use, I'm sure you've got a few talking points on that subject as well.
Peter, That was an awesome example and explanation of material stresses and how they affect the parts. It also shows how difficult it is to predict the stresses in the material. That thing really turned into a banana on you, good thing you had enough stock left to true it back up. That material is $$$$. Adapting your order of operations from a rigidity based strategy to a stress base is key. Some parts we make when the billets are cut from the bar, a sample needs to be sent to the lab to verify material properties all the way down the bar. Very much enjoy your videos.
I learned as a newbie in the shop 30yrs. ago on manual equipment from an old timer: Rough the OD, Rough the ID, Finish the ID, Finish the OD. This has saved me so many times since then, that I drill it into the apprentices now. Your analysis and observations are very much appreciated and I will add this video to my list for the new guys to watch. Thanks.
@@easyboy1950 I'm sure I'm not the only hobbyist who does machining who it never occured to. Even though I know material can bend after machining. This video and the comments have been very useful for me.
Great video! Its awesome to see more and more seasoned machinists put out content like this. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and letting us look over your shoulder.
Fabulous explanation especially on paper with issues of locked in and asymmetrically released stresses (in spite of "Stress relieving/relaxation") as well as stresses put into material as result of machining. Beautiful part at the end! Thanks so much for sharing all of this... Very generous and very valuable also THANK YOU!
This channel is where you come to once you have moved on from being a maker and you have become a manufacturer. This is the business end of machining. He is great, so much to learn, but this is the advanced course.
totally awesome explanation! You gave me more info about stresses in metal in this video than all the past reading I have done. Real world experiences and a demo. Great stuff! Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us.
Man this is such an informational video! I just programmed a 96" long part, and had all kinds of problems with warp. Wish I would've seen this video before hand!!
Great video, Peter! FYI, there are machines that have features similar to the TPS feature that you've shown here. I've run a couple styles of "teach-in lathes" that have a "tool inspection" feature. Typically it's something along the lines of Feedhold>handwheel out>do what you need to do (clear chips, check insert...)>handwheel back in to within .200" on both axis>start spindle and press go. As far as stresses go, on some parts I've done before I've actually had to drill and rough ID and rough OD, and then take them out and leave them for a little while (overnight or a couple days depending on what's going on) before going back and finishing. Again, great video!
TPS is smart.. Sinumerik controls got something alot the same.. really smart when you machine big parts and dont want to waste time on air chips.. about the stress.. its always a great way to learn how your material works when doing big jobs like this to check for runout after each tool/operation... great video..
When started my apprenticeship in 1977 I used to rough out forged tool steel on a shaper taking of the crust, then block it up on a face mill then plough grind it. Then it was milled out and re ground as it used to " move.
TPS tip was very nice . We do this kind of thing usually only when there is G0 on " next " and perform it with Single block on (not using TPS at all ). I ll try TPS first thing in the morning on monday. Great vids !
The problem of stress reminds me of a time in the last shop where I worked when we had a problem with making flat aluminium test coupons, a job which the shop did on-and-off for a couple years without much issue. They were 8"x10" plates of 6061 aluminium which were machined flat with a 12-inch shell mill on a vacuum , taking off about half the plate thickness. One day we had two batches of plates where several of them would come out of the machine bowed. It came down to the fact the plates were machined only from one side, and enough was being removed that the internal stresses were causing the plates to bow after removing them from the fixture.
Very cool. Interrupted API threads? in Inconel. Don't see that every day. Oil and gas stuff? Very nice looking part. Okuma has a similar control setup where you can save a location, pull out change inserts whatever then pick back up even in the middle of a threading cycle. I do like the configuration of that mazak. All the best. Tom
Doosan with fancy controls have program interrupt which does the same thing. You don’t need to save points the machine just remembers what moves you’ve made and then runs them in reverse up to ten different moves.
This re-positioning in cycle is even more easy in Heidenhain. It remembers your movements and does them reverse if you want if you go back in position. Save lot's of time instead of hand programming the movement positions. I use every day Heidenhain, Mazatrol, Fanuc, Okuma & Siemens Simatic and they all have this. I find personally Heidenhain most easy and fastest system in re-positioning in cycle. PS. Please keep on going with sharing your great video's and tips
That interesting it seems all the newer controls have this function. I haven't had a opportunity working for myself to use anything newer than about 10 years old. Thanks! for the information and complement.
This is a good video. Lots on Tube about high speed milling, volume milling , faster then fast...... Almost none talks about the STRESS in the material
This is priceless knowledge.. I've been a toolmaker/machinist for 35yrs, let me tell ya, you really need to know this stuff or you're gonna make a lot off bad parts.
The part you are machining is quite unique in its feature. The material stock is what is "keeping it together". Once that stock has been removed , the part is going to flex whichever way the stress get relieved.
some Fanuc controls or atleast the one ive used, "oi-md", had a "manual intervention and return" function. very similar to what you explained in this video. an extremely helpful function if working with tough materials and using an insert tool. simply press feed hold then coolant off, go to handle mode, turn off the spindle and jog the tool to a suitable location to change the insert. then once done turn the spindle and coolant back on then go to memory mode and press cycle start. the machine will feed back to the last machining position and carry on. i was completely unaware of this function until recently and thought you had to start from the beginning of the program. be wary though that the machine will feed back to the original point in a straight line and if this is not considered the machine may crash into the workpiece!
The Okuma control has a similar feature and has had for ages. I think Fanuc has the feature too, but it has to be implemented by the machine builder, and many of them are too lazy or too cheap to do so.
Nice video again. But this phenomenon i experience on a daily basis. You have still have a small piece here so the runout is litle. My colleague had this Dia.90 x 2800mm bar that had to be turned to 50 and 80 for a trapezium thread and during the roughing cut he had to release the tailstock multiple times to relieve stress and tension from the long bar. It also varies from material to material. We almost rough every piece we make and then finish them all. Just for this phenomenon only. Takes lot's of time and setups but it's really needed when making big pieces. Once again, great video to explain it so nicely. (btw your last video when u created that measuring device was very nice and inspiring) Get a patent for it. And get it on the market
Haas controls have a similar feature for point return. Not sure if the Fanuc controls on the vertical lathes and boring mills I run have it. Good video and stress explanation
I've seen a face mill used for turning down a bar ..Turn Milling..not sure on the advantages or disadvantages though or if this method is used to speed up machining or reduce stress?
thank you for your video! I was amazed at how short the dovetail grip is, I normally work in aluminum and hesitate to grip less than 1/10 of the part's length. I am curious as to how you calculate what's safe and what is not? btw, I work with a hidraulic chuck as opposed to your manual 4 jaw chuck, so I dont have the ability to make the dovetail grip angle so acute,. following your videos I added 3 degrees taper to the grip of all the parts I make. (they used to be straight diameters).
Thanks Brian. The house is getting there. My wife's brother is in the home remodeling business so he has been working on it for the last month. The whole inside on the bottom floor is totally demoed out the cabinet maker is going to start next week to rebuild the cabinets. We have to get a inspector to test for mold spores before we can redo the insulation and drywall. We are currently staying with my son in law.
Yup, the midcycle manual is like others have said in most controllers. Heidenhain I'm familiar with, it reverses the order of manual operations when resuming to cut and it also has the option of starting midcycle by precalculating how it got to the position where it is (think power outage). 5-axis can also retract along Z' for example after power outage during drilling in an angle. One fun in Heidenhain is also manual override during a cycle, you can reposition some axis with the handwheel while the cycle is running :) Charmilles EDM's also have midcycle manual option, just hit STOP, hit MANUAL/PENDANT, and you can then either manual position it or hit RETRACT and it automatically moves to the previous starting position. Very nice when you want to check how it is going or check the electrode or manually flush the area more.
My Mitsubishi horizontal mill has a Meldas control (buy the way all Mazaks are really Mitsubishi Meldas controls under the Mazatrol ). Anyway if you go into MDI and enter a tapping cycle in incremental mode but don't cancel it with a G80 you can manually tap holes with the hand wheel. Like this you have to give it a spindle speed lets say 100 RPM than a G91 so the code would look like this G91; S100; G84 F.100; Z-1.0; for a tap pitch of .100. Now run that at close to Zero return with the spindle. Let it finish than put it into the handle jog mode. The Z axis will now be synchronized with the spindle (at the feed in the tapping cycle) when you jog with the hand wheel. You can jog it back and forth just like you hand tap. It will remain effective until you push reset. I have not tried this on any other machines but it does work on this machine.
I wish I could learn from you!😭😁 Love the details, tips and tricks and all the information that you provide! Very useful! Never machined inconel, but heard how difficult it is, machined ti64 and it wasn't quite challenging as I thought it would be. How do they compare?
Hurco controls these days are picking up where mazatrol left off. They'll do all kinds of rest machining functions like this tool return point thing along with fancy canned cycles such as peck tapping. The basic "interrupt" button on new hurcos is far and away better than feed hold. Interrupt automatically retracts the tool, turns off the spindle, kills coolant. Just remember to define the tool not to retract z if you're using a t-slot cutter or slitting saw ;) I'm mostly a mill guy with a little bit of smaller live tool lathe experience. Sub spindle hand offs, cross holes, face bolt patterns, milling hexes n such. Just doing the basics when shit starts to get to be too much like milling for our hard working lathe guys.
Schooled, excellent analysis & explanation. learn't a lot. how do you machine the recesses where the threads are??? that has me puzzled. Great content on your video's, very informative & interesting
Phil's Projects I mill away most of the material than use a special shaping tool for the corners. See my previous video Things are shaping up at the shop.
if you did the internal work first, wouldn't it make the outer dimensions easier if not completely eliminate the issues that you had? or would stresses be greater and more difficult to deal with because the part is hollow?
I'm only a 2d Gantry mill guy, but our 08 Haas gr510 has something similar. If your in the middle of an operation (say profiling a part) feed hold, turn off spindle, hand jog, move the spindle to wherever. When you want to return, hit memory then feed start. Should resume your regularly scheduled programming. Lol.
I have found that this process is not immediate for some materials. Duplex 25Cr, in particular, will relax gradually over maybe 24-48 hours. With these materials, I'd recommend roughing or ejector drilling, then letting it chill out for a day or two, and then setting back up again for the finishing.
Where you stopped the cycle with Tool Point Save. I have to say, Hurco has a more streamlined way of doing that. Here is how it works on their VMC'S. Press Intrupt (yellow button beside auto mode.) Z axis goes to home position and spindle shuts off. Then you can jog the machine wherever you need to. Clear chips, take a measurement, whatever you need to do. Then, when you are ready to resume. Simply press Auto and Cycle Start. The machine picks up right where it left off. I would imagine, it works the same way on all of their machines.
Interesting Video this should be common knowledge for any machinist. You should see what a 30+ foot marine shaft does once you rough it over. By the way the tool point reset isn´t only on Mazak i know from personal experience that at least Fagor can do it too.
2384SKIPPER yeah, I worked with Siemens and Heidenhain's DMG machines, they all have this function. And they even have program lines calculation if you wanna start mid way in the program.
Would be interesting to machine a little feature at the chuck end of the job, little groove and diameter, for indication, to check for give in the chuck assembly and jaws.
My experience with the 'EN' series steel is that you have to turn the Job around and Turn it from both ways right until the finishing cut ie: EN 8 to EN 14 B . . . and many other hybrid Steels do Stress the same way. I understand that in a CNC machine, turning the job around after every cut would drive the Turning Quote or Price right up !
Dude your parts look nice! Also love that lathe! I know this might not be a proper question to ask but ied love to know how much you got paid per part. Thanks very much for the video!
Try lining up the high spot with a jaw, rotating part unclamped, then lower jaw pressure to a safe holding pressure, then hit jaw with hammer. as the highspot is in one spot im assuming unless its gone oval in a few places, this may work to tap true if high spot is lined to a jaw
TPS for Mazak is similar to Mid Auto Manual on Okuma, they've had it since at least the mid 90's. Regardless of MTB, it's an AMAZING feature that should be on all machines.
I give you a idea how long its been since I ran a Okuma. When we saved our programs we used their floppy drive that took their proprietary 8" floppy disks. I think that may have been in the late 70's or early 80,s. I'm not exactly sure. Wow that seems like a long time ago. The Mazak is the first machine I've run that had this feature and as you say it should be on all machines.
Rough then finish for anything not critical. Rough, semi finish, stabilise, finish for anything critical. Rough, split, relax, semi rough, vibro relax, semi finish, relax, finish for split critical jobs. That’s a go to for me regardless of materialz
My Mazak had a cycle that would allow me to do a bore in multiple steps. This prevented chip build up. I can't remember what it was called but if I had a 7" bore 30" deep it would rough it out in 10" deep sections, or whatever you would set it at. The name of the cycle escapes me, but I can't imagine our 90's machine having it and that not.
Never tried using tps in an iso program before. Im new to running iso tapes on my mazak, as we cut various connections on this machine, but i wondered if i can use tool suffixes in iso tapes? As in mazatrol i can define tool 4 or 4a for example, i have kenametal heads for my boring bar and need to change from my tnmg boring head to a 75 degree approach head. I have used the mdi to call the tool t0404.1. Can i use this in iso? Sorry for the long winded question.
Yes, In a EIA program on the Mazak the tool call outs go's like this. Tool 1A would be T1.01 Tool 1B would be T1.02 and so on. At least that's the way it works on my Mazatrol 640m Pro control. I don't think you need the prefix info like your example t0404.1 on my control T4.01 would be T4A all the other information the control would need is on the Mazatrol's tools page for that tool A(I use the Mazatrol tool setup page not the EIA tool offset page for everything except tip radius comp direction. The two interact with each other. This is kind off a complicated explanation for this. If you are interested let me know) . You would just have to change to tool A with a M6. For example I can use the same tool to turn toward the chuck and away from the chuck by just using a M6 tool change from one to the other. The tools orientation is on the tool page in the control. The machine will reorient the tool with the M6 T1.02 For tool 1B for example. Say I was turning toward the chuck with T1.01 (T1A)when finished I would move to a clearance position than command M6 T1.02 (T1B) and move in to turn away from the chuck. That is all that would be required in the program. All the other information would be in the tool setup. I hope that make sense. If not send me another question.
For the TPS you explain: I first used Siemens Manual Turn on top of their 840D control (approx from 2002 or something like that) and they have an even better TPS: Just hit cycle stop and jog with the handwheel to wereever you want (spindle keeps turning until you also stop it!!) hit cycle start when you want and the control asks you how ti approach the last position in the cycle e. g. X/Z at the same time, X first then Z and so on. When we got the first Mazak (QTS200) in 2014 I was pretty annoyed with the TPS as it stops the spindle which is bad when you are not in a G0 move but in the cut. Further Heidenhain has a TPS like function as well - only our Fanuc doesn't have it.
The first Mazak I owned had a T32 Mazatrol . I bought the machine in the early 1990. I cant remember exactly. I will guess around 1993. Even back then the Mazatrol had this feature. Yes it would be nice if Mazak would not turn the spindle off when you go into any manual mode from auto.
Edge Precision Awesome that it's not just me who wants the spindle to keep turning. As for older Siemens controls I have no idea when the introduced their TPS system (I also don't know how they call it in EN as my control "speaks" German) - 1993 I was merely six years old. As you know Mazaks that long you maybe also know if it's possible to set the simulation's coordinate system to not show the position of the center of the nose radius but rather the edge. This was also something really strange for me when I started using the machine.
After seeing some of your other videos I'm very surprised you fell for that one. I always get rid of as much material as possible before going to finish op's
Actually this wasn't the first part. It was the sixth part. The ones previous to this had no distortion. But just to be safe for the remainder of the parts I roughed out the neck before the finish cuts.
Nice video of a topic some don't consider until they get in trouble. I do have one unrelated question, how do you machine that interrupted thread on the ID? I can't picture it.
I machine the thread first than mill and shape out the key slots. I than rerun the thread tool to cut out any burs left in the thread by the shaping operation. See my video Things are shaping around the shop.
very little if you think about it. If the gravitational force is always in the same direction than it wont change run out. It could cause a very thin long part to sag farther away from the chuck. But you really shouldn't be running a part that way anyway. It could be very dangerous.
I think that the engineer couldn't have the assembly rotating a lot of turns to install the end cap. This only requires a 45 deg turn to install the end cap. Than the end gets electron beam welded around the OD to seal it off. I don't design things I just machine them to their drawings.
I milked a bright mild steel bar for my model loco, i took it out of the vice it had curved about 0.010" next ones time I'll machine small amounts off each face to allow the stress to even out
I presume you are talking about milling it with the B axis at 30 degrees and rotating the C axis. I do it this way to insure it is on the exact center of rotation. I also have more freedom on the RPM with the milling spindle. The turning spindle has a Max RPM of 1600 in high range.
Edge Precision I have no idea were 0° are for the B axis but I know I mean that axis. Hm, is the C axis in this case in the milling head? Thought it would "stay" in the turning spindle or the turning spindle would become C1 and the milling head C2 (for the rotary axis around Z). I understand the better speed range for the milling spindle, but why will it also stay better on center? I thought for that pupose it would be even better to roatate both C axis - in the milling head and the turning spindle - at least from what I've seen some deep hole drilling machines do.
Peter checkout that Hertal OD insert anti chatter insert with warpage problems this insert has VEARY little tool pressure you get 8 cutting edges on each insert try it.
Uuuhhhg.. material inconsistencies are common in most materials, but 304 seems to be the worst... Not to mention it moves around so damn much. I machined a bunch of parts from explosion bonded copper/304.. still have nightmares about flip flopping that stuff!!
Long skinny parts in 304 are the bane of my work, which is job shop laser cutting. Parts cut from the outside edges of a plate will warp so much I have to stop and remove them before I can cut the rest. Dealing with the consequences of wildly different released stresses adds a considerable amount of time cost (and sometimes rework!). I've had to educate a couple front office people on why all the parts cut out of a 'flat' plate don't come out flat...
Slide a foam earplug into the intake of that air nozzle. I used to do that to the loud ones at work and the guys that had to use an air nozzle for every little thing.
Is that steel or something more exotic? I am in school learning to be machinist and like watching your videos for the cnc content, and the (to me) unusual materials.
Looking at the geometry and features of that part, I'm gonna guess there is a pyrotechnic charge inside the main cavity that produces a large volume of high pressure gas through that orifice.
I'm not entirely sure what this does. But the reason for the breach closure is. There is a instrument that goes inside. In order not to have to turn the cap many revolutions to close it because of wiring getting twisted to many times. The cap only has to turn a quarter of a turn. The whole thing than gets electron beam welded together. Its something that goes down deep in the ocean I think I heard. These buttress threads are timed precisely with the cap's threads.
I watch a vid where he mentions how expensive the material is, the next he say's how close he was to scraping one. Imagine how difficult it would be to make that part before cnc or dro, trying to measure down that hole. I've machined cast iron ( sg ) bars, about 2 inch dia, 2 foot long, they bend a bit when you cut through the skin, but I wasn't working to the tolerances of this guy, a tape measure was used.
I milled most of it and shaped out the corner radius's left by the endmill's. I think it shows it in another video. Look at the video "Things Are Shaping Around The Shop".
Edge Precision Got it, I often approach things too complicated and probably would have shaped the entire recesses :) Do you know the technical function of the recesses?
Dave Anderson I first mill out the flutes. That left radiuses in the corners that were shaped out with a special shaping tool. See my video Things are shaping around the shop. You will see clips of the shaping tool and how it was run. One thing not shown is the thread had to also be timed to the flutes and the mating end cap.
Generally, the one that is hot rolled, does have have such high internal stresses, but if it is hot forged, it will have that. We have toolox 44, that is forged and has spiral marks around it from the forging dies. Its highly directional with axial fiber orientation, if you turn it in one shot, it will move. Thanks for the video, it shows the issues so clearly!
Just finished watching the whole video, what a beautiful work or art that piece! Actually, I'd like to also add that the stress relieving can never remove that behavior, since the metal aligns itself in linear fibres which create a bias in stiffness and strength along the fibre direction. So cutting it off will change that stress and thus the bend.
i have turned these types of super alloys for years. you must know that nicoloy 925{inconel} is a lot like duplex ss.both are used in the aero space ind.and the oil & gas ind.because of their excellent corrosion resistance and strength. inconel 925 has a hi nickel w. iron&cromium,moly,copper,titanium,& alum. it is solution annealed,and age hardened. any heat treated super alloy will have a lot of stress. the best thing to do is rough the piece part out and have it stress relived before finish machining leaving the threads for last.i know its a lot more expensive,but it will save incorrect parts which kill profits. thx rc
Rich Crowell In my experience (closer to 30 years) I've learned that while the Inconel, or any nickel based alloy, have very predicable responses to tools, cutters, inserts ... As well as how they relieve their stresses, the Super Duplex SS is nothing like it. The response of cutting tools, inserts, etc both in turning and milling is very unpredictable, as well as it relieves itself from stresses. I'd say Duplex and Super Duplex are in a place by themselves, and say that Nickel alloys are, though tough, very predictable, more like Cobalt alloys, versus like any type of SS. Just my opinion, based on years of machining many different alloys with many different methods.
Not so much for spark resistance, which it can be, It's for corrosive fluids seen down hole and in the petrochemical industry. I know, I've designed many down hole tools in the past that had to be made from Inconells and Duplex Stainless steels. @steve gale
oh really? I've dealt with ring flanges and standard flanges that had inconel inlays on them. Yeah, more 304 SS used. I can see Duplex not being used in petrochemical. My wrong on that. Can't tell me there's not any inconel 625 piping used in petrochemical processing?. @steve gale
on a 25 year old maho 600e you can do the same. prg stop (read botton) spindel stop . . move axes away ,, push cycle start and it runs back and continues prg
I was taught many years ago (about 49) that you should completely rough out all your surfaces and major holes/bores before starting to finish a job.
That has saved my arse many times.
Kap
Wow that dovetail clamping method is an eye opener for me. Going to steal this and put it in my toolbox.
I read the title and was expecting a video on the emotional stress of machining. Judging from the complexity of the parts you machine as well as the large dollar figures of the machine, tooling and materials you use, I'm sure you've got a few talking points on that subject as well.
Lol that's so true. :)
physical stress in the part is often a great contributor to physical stress in the machinist
Same here
Peter, That was an awesome example and explanation of material stresses and how they affect the parts. It also shows how difficult it is to predict the stresses in the material. That thing really turned into a banana on you, good thing you had enough stock left to true it back up. That material is $$$$. Adapting your order of operations from a rigidity based strategy to a stress base is key. Some parts we make when the billets are cut from the bar, a sample needs to be sent to the lab to verify material properties all the way down the bar. Very much enjoy your videos.
I learned as a newbie in the shop 30yrs. ago on manual equipment from an old timer: Rough the OD, Rough the ID, Finish the ID, Finish the OD. This has saved me so many times since then, that I drill it into the apprentices now. Your analysis and observations are very much appreciated and I will add this video to my list for the new guys to watch. Thanks.
This is just common practice. I thought everybody knew that.
@@easyboy1950 I'm sure I'm not the only hobbyist who does machining who it never occured to. Even though I know material can bend after machining. This video and the comments have been very useful for me.
Peter's bigger point was that 6 pieces before ran fine - but the next might not.
Great video! Its awesome to see more and more seasoned machinists put out content like this. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and letting us look over your shoulder.
Beautiful work as usual. A great insight into the realities of machining. Thanks for making these videos.
22:28
My heart skipped a beat there...
Fabulous explanation especially on paper with issues of locked in and asymmetrically released stresses (in spite of "Stress relieving/relaxation") as well as stresses put into material as result of machining. Beautiful part at the end! Thanks so much for sharing all of this... Very generous and very valuable also THANK YOU!
Thanks for another great video. Your channel is definitely my favorite.
Thank you Peter for another Excellent video, as usual.
Great video Peter very nice machine work you do some great projects and I really enjoy your videos.
Just found you and started burning through your videos and wow! You really are putting a lot of great information out there, thanks for posting them!
This channel is where you come to once you have moved on from being a maker and you have become a manufacturer. This is the business end of machining. He is great, so much to learn, but this is the advanced course.
Peter indeed deserves far FAR more views. Super talented and humble.
machinists tend to find the term "maker" insulting
totally awesome explanation! You gave me more info about stresses in metal in this video than all the past reading I have done. Real world experiences and a demo. Great stuff! Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us.
Wow, the final part is a work of art. Very interesting lesson on stress. From the video title there were two routes that this one could go.
Man this is such an informational video! I just programmed a 96" long part, and had all kinds of problems with warp. Wish I would've seen this video before hand!!
Great video, Peter! FYI, there are machines that have features similar to the TPS feature that you've shown here. I've run a couple styles of "teach-in lathes" that have a "tool inspection" feature. Typically it's something along the lines of Feedhold>handwheel out>do what you need to do (clear chips, check insert...)>handwheel back in to within .200" on both axis>start spindle and press go.
As far as stresses go, on some parts I've done before I've actually had to drill and rough ID and rough OD, and then take them out and leave them for a little while (overnight or a couple days depending on what's going on) before going back and finishing.
Again, great video!
TPS is smart.. Sinumerik controls got something alot the same.. really smart when you machine big parts and dont want to waste time on air chips..
about the stress.. its always a great way to learn how your material works when doing big jobs like this to check for runout after each tool/operation...
great video..
When started my apprenticeship in 1977 I used to rough out forged tool steel on a shaper taking of the crust, then block it up on a face mill then plough grind it. Then it was milled out and re ground as it used to " move.
TPS tip was very nice . We do this kind of thing usually only when there is G0 on " next " and perform it with Single block on (not using TPS at all ). I ll try TPS first thing in the morning on monday. Great vids !
So glad you completed your picture at 21:00, my OCD was peaking for a second. Fantastic video!
Excellent video! Awesome content man, keep them coming!
The problem of stress reminds me of a time in the last shop where I worked when we had a problem with making flat aluminium test coupons, a job which the shop did on-and-off for a couple years without much issue. They were 8"x10" plates of 6061 aluminium which were machined flat with a 12-inch shell mill on a vacuum , taking off about half the plate thickness. One day we had two batches of plates where several of them would come out of the machine bowed. It came down to the fact the plates were machined only from one side, and enough was being removed that the internal stresses were causing the plates to bow after removing them from the fixture.
Your knowledge is always impressive, thank you for sharing.
Very cool. Interrupted API threads? in Inconel. Don't see that every day. Oil and gas stuff? Very nice looking part. Okuma has a similar control setup where you can save a location, pull out change inserts whatever then pick back up even in the middle of a threading cycle. I do like the configuration of that mazak. All the best. Tom
Doosan with fancy controls have program interrupt which does the same thing. You don’t need to save points the machine just remembers what moves you’ve made and then runs them in reverse up to ten different moves.
This re-positioning in cycle is even more easy in Heidenhain. It remembers your movements and does them reverse if you want if you go back in position. Save lot's of time instead of hand programming the movement positions.
I use every day Heidenhain, Mazatrol, Fanuc, Okuma & Siemens Simatic and they all have this. I find personally Heidenhain most easy and fastest system in re-positioning in cycle.
PS. Please keep on going with sharing your great video's and tips
That interesting it seems all the newer controls have this function. I haven't had a opportunity working for myself to use anything newer than about 10 years old. Thanks! for the information and complement.
That is a work of art 👍
Thank you for the insight and sharing your learning experience. Nice parts.
Always fascinating and interesting vids. Thank you.
This is a good video. Lots on Tube about high speed milling, volume milling , faster then fast......
Almost none talks about the STRESS in the material
This is priceless knowledge.. I've been a toolmaker/machinist for 35yrs, let me tell ya, you really need to know this stuff or you're gonna make a lot off bad parts.
The part you are machining is quite unique in its feature. The material stock is what is "keeping it together". Once that stock has been removed , the part is going to flex whichever way the stress get relieved.
some Fanuc controls or atleast the one ive used, "oi-md", had a "manual intervention and return" function. very similar to what you explained in this video. an extremely helpful function if working with tough materials and using an insert tool. simply press feed hold then coolant off, go to handle mode, turn off the spindle and jog the tool to a suitable location to change the insert. then once done turn the spindle and coolant back on then go to memory mode and press cycle start. the machine will feed back to the last machining position and carry on. i was completely unaware of this function until recently and thought you had to start from the beginning of the program. be wary though that the machine will feed back to the original point in a straight line and if this is not considered the machine may crash into the workpiece!
The Okuma control has a similar feature and has had for ages. I think Fanuc has the feature too, but it has to be implemented by the machine builder, and many of them are too lazy or too cheap to do so.
I've learned a lot.
Thanks for the explanation
Interesting, distortion in round parts is not very often adressed.
All that large stuff would scare the heck out of me ;)
Nice video again. But this phenomenon i experience on a daily basis. You have still have a small piece here so the runout is litle. My colleague had this Dia.90 x 2800mm bar that had to be turned to 50 and 80 for a trapezium thread and during the roughing cut he had to release the tailstock multiple times to relieve stress and tension from the long bar.
It also varies from material to material. We almost rough every piece we make and then finish them all. Just for this phenomenon only. Takes lot's of time and setups but it's really needed when making big pieces.
Once again, great video to explain it so nicely.
(btw your last video when u created that measuring device was very nice and inspiring) Get a patent for it. And get it on the market
Haas controls have a similar feature for point return. Not sure if the Fanuc controls on the vertical lathes and boring mills I run have it. Good video and stress explanation
I've seen a face mill used for turning down a bar ..Turn Milling..not sure on the advantages or disadvantages though or if this method is used to speed up machining or reduce stress?
thank you for your video!
I was amazed at how short the dovetail grip is, I normally work in aluminum and hesitate to grip less than 1/10 of the part's length. I am curious as to how you calculate what's safe and what is not?
btw, I work with a hidraulic chuck as opposed to your manual 4 jaw chuck, so I dont have the ability to make the dovetail grip angle so acute,.
following your videos I added 3 degrees taper to the grip of all the parts I make. (they used to be straight diameters).
Great videos and always something to learn. Hope you are getting back to normal at your home !
Brian
Thanks Brian. The house is getting there. My wife's brother is in the home remodeling business so he has been working on it for the last month. The whole inside on the bottom floor is totally demoed out the cabinet maker is going to start next week to rebuild the cabinets. We have to get a inspector to test for mold spores before we can redo the insulation and drywall. We are currently staying with my son in law.
Yup, the midcycle manual is like others have said in most controllers. Heidenhain I'm familiar with, it reverses the order of manual operations when resuming to cut and it also has the option of starting midcycle by precalculating how it got to the position where it is (think power outage). 5-axis can also retract along Z' for example after power outage during drilling in an angle.
One fun in Heidenhain is also manual override during a cycle, you can reposition some axis with the handwheel while the cycle is running :)
Charmilles EDM's also have midcycle manual option, just hit STOP, hit MANUAL/PENDANT, and you can then either manual position it or hit RETRACT and it automatically moves to the previous starting position. Very nice when you want to check how it is going or check the electrode or manually flush the area more.
My Mitsubishi horizontal mill has a Meldas control (buy the way all Mazaks are really Mitsubishi Meldas controls under the Mazatrol ). Anyway if you go into MDI and enter a tapping cycle in incremental mode but don't cancel it with a G80 you can manually tap holes with the hand wheel. Like this you have to give it a spindle speed lets say 100 RPM than a G91 so the code would look like this G91; S100; G84 F.100; Z-1.0; for a tap pitch of .100. Now run that at close to Zero return with the spindle. Let it finish than put it into the handle jog mode. The Z axis will now be synchronized with the spindle (at the feed in the tapping cycle) when you jog with the hand wheel. You can jog it back and forth just like you hand tap. It will remain effective until you push reset. I have not tried this on any other machines but it does work on this machine.
Very Good , nice part too
I wish I could learn from you!😭😁 Love the details, tips and tricks and all the information that you provide! Very useful! Never machined inconel, but heard how difficult it is, machined ti64 and it wasn't quite challenging as I thought it would be. How do they compare?
THANK YOU! Have been looking all over on how to use TPS, I'm kind of new to Mazatrol, and the manual wasn't very clear on how to use it.
I'm Glad it was some help. Thanks!
Hurco controls these days are picking up where mazatrol left off. They'll do all kinds of rest machining functions like this tool return point thing along with fancy canned cycles such as peck tapping. The basic "interrupt" button on new hurcos is far and away better than feed hold. Interrupt automatically retracts the tool, turns off the spindle, kills coolant. Just remember to define the tool not to retract z if you're using a t-slot cutter or slitting saw ;)
I'm mostly a mill guy with a little bit of smaller live tool lathe experience. Sub spindle hand offs, cross holes, face bolt patterns, milling hexes n such. Just doing the basics when shit starts to get to be too much like milling for our hard working lathe guys.
Yup, seen same stress problems. Last 12 " of a 8 " diameter 8620 had stress in it. It also shows up in heat treatment.
Schooled, excellent analysis & explanation. learn't a lot.
how do you machine the recesses where the threads are??? that has me puzzled.
Great content on your video's, very informative & interesting
Phil's Projects I mill away most of the material than use a special shaping tool for the corners. See my previous video Things are shaping up at the shop.
if you did the internal work first, wouldn't it make the outer dimensions easier if not completely eliminate the issues that you had? or would stresses be greater and more difficult to deal with because the part is hollow?
Thank you for the video, be well!
Pure awesomeness!
A great lesson on dealing with stresses in materials.
Thanks a lot dear master, again learned a lot, again schooled.
How’d you do the interruptions in the thread you show at the end? The fillets radii at the edges seem too small for the apparent depth, LxD ratio
Looks like something I would have drawn in drafting class (-8 Good info as always, thanks!
I'm only a 2d Gantry mill guy, but our 08 Haas gr510 has something similar. If your in the middle of an operation (say profiling a part) feed hold, turn off spindle, hand jog, move the spindle to wherever. When you want to return, hit memory then feed start. Should resume your regularly scheduled programming. Lol.
I have found that this process is not immediate for some materials. Duplex 25Cr, in particular, will relax gradually over maybe 24-48 hours. With these materials, I'd recommend roughing or ejector drilling, then letting it chill out for a day or two, and then setting back up again for the finishing.
Where you stopped the cycle with Tool Point Save. I have to say, Hurco has a more streamlined way of doing that. Here is how it works on their VMC'S. Press Intrupt (yellow button beside auto mode.) Z axis goes to home position and spindle shuts off. Then you can jog the machine wherever you need to. Clear chips, take a measurement, whatever you need to do. Then, when you are ready to resume. Simply press Auto and Cycle Start. The machine picks up right where it left off. I would imagine, it works the same way on all of their machines.
retardbarf with Hurco, you don't have to jog back. It is a pretty cool feature.
Interesting Video this should be common knowledge for any machinist.
You should see what a 30+ foot marine shaft does once you rough it over.
By the way the tool point reset isn´t only on Mazak i know from personal experience that at least Fagor can do it too.
2384SKIPPER yeah, I worked with Siemens and Heidenhain's DMG machines, they all have this function. And they even have program lines calculation if you wanna start mid way in the program.
Also my old Fanuc 6 from 1984 has program re start :-)
thats all good but maybe the boss doesn't want you to rough machine then stress relieve then finish machine as time is money to them
Very interesting, thanks for sharing
Would be interesting to machine a little feature at the chuck end of the job, little groove and diameter, for indication, to check for give in the chuck assembly and jaws.
peter very informative video.
Thanks for the tips.
My experience with the 'EN' series steel is that you have to turn the Job around and Turn it from both ways right until the finishing cut ie: EN 8 to EN 14 B . . . and many other hybrid Steels do Stress the same way. I understand that in a CNC machine, turning the job around after every cut would drive the Turning Quote or Price right up !
Dude your parts look nice! Also love that lathe! I know this might not be a proper question to ask but ied love to know how much you got paid per part. Thanks very much for the video!
Try lining up the high spot with a jaw, rotating part unclamped, then lower jaw pressure to a safe holding pressure, then hit jaw with hammer. as the highspot is in one spot im assuming unless its gone oval in a few places, this may work to tap true if high spot is lined to a jaw
TPS for Mazak is similar to Mid Auto Manual on Okuma, they've had it since at least the mid 90's. Regardless of MTB, it's an AMAZING feature that should be on all machines.
I give you a idea how long its been since I ran a Okuma. When we saved our programs we used their floppy drive that took their proprietary 8" floppy disks. I think that may have been in the late 70's or early 80,s. I'm not exactly sure. Wow that seems like a long time ago. The Mazak is the first machine I've run that had this feature and as you say it should be on all machines.
Oh and yes, nothing like that Mazatrol programming. Nice and easy. And many adjustment features. It's really operator friendly.
That TPS mode is pretty sweet the doosan mills and lathes I run don't have it. I've run haas and fadal they didn't have it either that I knew of.
Rough then finish for anything not critical.
Rough, semi finish, stabilise, finish for anything critical.
Rough, split, relax, semi rough, vibro relax, semi finish, relax, finish for split critical jobs.
That’s a go to for me regardless of materialz
Could it have been something else, though? Like maybe it slipped in the chuck sometime during the OD?
That part must operate at crazy pressures!
I believe its 20,000 PSI.
My Mazak had a cycle that would allow me to do a bore in multiple steps. This prevented chip build up. I can't remember what it was called but if I had a 7" bore 30" deep it would rough it out in 10" deep sections, or whatever you would set it at. The name of the cycle escapes me, but I can't imagine our 90's machine having it and that not.
Yes if I was programming in Mazatrol that cycle is still available. I run EIA (G code). This cutting strategy can also be done in a EIA program.
Never tried using tps in an iso program before. Im new to running iso tapes on my mazak, as we cut various connections on this machine, but i wondered if i can use tool suffixes in iso tapes? As in mazatrol i can define tool 4 or 4a for example, i have kenametal heads for my boring bar and need to change from my tnmg boring head to a 75 degree approach head. I have used the mdi to call the tool t0404.1. Can i use this in iso? Sorry for the long winded question.
Yes, In a EIA program on the Mazak the tool call outs go's like this. Tool 1A would be T1.01 Tool 1B would be T1.02 and so on. At least that's the way it works on my Mazatrol 640m Pro control. I don't think you need the prefix info like your example t0404.1 on my control T4.01 would be T4A all the other information the control would need is on the Mazatrol's tools page for that tool A(I use the Mazatrol tool setup page not the EIA tool offset page for everything except tip radius comp direction. The two interact with each other. This is kind off a complicated explanation for this. If you are interested let me know) . You would just have to change to tool A with a M6. For example I can use the same tool to turn toward the chuck and away from the chuck by just using a M6 tool change from one to the other. The tools orientation is on the tool page in the control. The machine will reorient the tool with the M6 T1.02 For tool 1B for example. Say I was turning toward the chuck with T1.01 (T1A)when finished I would move to a clearance position than command M6 T1.02 (T1B) and move in to turn away from the chuck. That is all that would be required in the program. All the other information would be in the tool setup. I hope that make sense. If not send me another question.
the restart feature you can do on simumerik and i know haas has a restart feature on there lathes..
For the TPS you explain: I first used Siemens Manual Turn on top of their 840D control (approx from 2002 or something like that) and they have an even better TPS: Just hit cycle stop and jog with the handwheel to wereever you want (spindle keeps turning until you also stop it!!) hit cycle start when you want and the control asks you how ti approach the last position in the cycle e. g. X/Z at the same time, X first then Z and so on. When we got the first Mazak (QTS200) in 2014 I was pretty annoyed with the TPS as it stops the spindle which is bad when you are not in a G0 move but in the cut.
Further Heidenhain has a TPS like function as well - only our Fanuc doesn't have it.
The first Mazak I owned had a T32 Mazatrol . I bought the machine in the early 1990. I cant remember exactly. I will guess around 1993. Even back then the Mazatrol had this feature. Yes it would be nice if Mazak would not turn the spindle off when you go into any manual mode from auto.
Edge Precision Awesome that it's not just me who wants the spindle to keep turning.
As for older Siemens controls I have no idea when the introduced their TPS system (I also don't know how they call it in EN as my control "speaks" German) - 1993 I was merely six years old.
As you know Mazaks that long you maybe also know if it's possible to set the simulation's coordinate system to not show the position of the center of the nose radius but rather the edge. This was also something really strange for me when I started using the machine.
After seeing some of your other videos I'm very surprised you fell for that one. I always get rid of as much material as possible before going to finish op's
Actually this wasn't the first part. It was the sixth part. The ones previous to this had no distortion. But just to be safe for the remainder of the parts I roughed out the neck before the finish cuts.
That's a big Integrex, probably the biggest I've seen but I know they make them bigger. What is the milling spindle power?
douro20 The milling spindle has 50 hp and the turning spindle has 60 hp. The model is a e650H 120" between centers.
Nice video of a topic some don't consider until they get in trouble. I do have one unrelated question, how do you machine that interrupted thread on the ID? I can't picture it.
I machine the thread first than mill and shape out the key slots. I than rerun the thread tool to cut out any burs left in the thread by the shaping operation. See my video Things are shaping around the shop.
You do some nice work mate, i wonder would you have time to make a small special tool for me?
What kind of tool do you need. You can e-mail me at peter@edge-pre.com
How much would gravity play a roll in the run out with the amount of unsupported stick out on that part?
very little if you think about it. If the gravitational force is always in the same direction than it wont change run out. It could cause a very thin long part to sag farther away from the chuck. But you really shouldn't be running a part that way anyway. It could be very dangerous.
What does the milled slots on the thread aid there Tony?
I think that the engineer couldn't have the assembly rotating a lot of turns to install the end cap. This only requires a 45 deg turn to install the end cap. Than the end gets electron beam welded around the OD to seal it off. I don't design things I just machine them to their drawings.
I milked a bright mild steel bar for my model loco, i took it out of the vice it had curved about 0.010" next ones time I'll machine small amounts off each face to allow the stress to even out
What is the reason for drilling the center hole with live tooling instead of letting the turning spindle do the work?
I presume you are talking about milling it with the B axis at 30 degrees and rotating the C axis. I do it this way to insure it is on the exact center of rotation. I also have more freedom on the RPM with the milling spindle. The turning spindle has a Max RPM of 1600 in high range.
Edge Precision I have no idea were 0° are for the B axis but I know I mean that axis.
Hm, is the C axis in this case in the milling head? Thought it would "stay" in the turning spindle or the turning spindle would become C1 and the milling head C2 (for the rotary axis around Z).
I understand the better speed range for the milling spindle, but why will it also stay better on center? I thought for that pupose it would be even better to roatate both C axis - in the milling head and the turning spindle - at least from what I've seen some deep hole drilling machines do.
Peter checkout that Hertal OD insert anti chatter insert with warpage problems this insert has VEARY little tool pressure you get 8 cutting edges on each insert try it.
Uuuhhhg.. material inconsistencies are common in most materials, but 304 seems to be the worst... Not to mention it moves around so damn much. I machined a bunch of parts from explosion bonded copper/304.. still have nightmares about flip flopping that stuff!!
Long skinny parts in 304 are the bane of my work, which is job shop laser cutting. Parts cut from the outside edges of a plate will warp so much I have to stop and remove them before I can cut the rest. Dealing with the consequences of wildly different released stresses adds a considerable amount of time cost (and sometimes rework!).
I've had to educate a couple front office people on why all the parts cut out of a 'flat' plate don't come out flat...
somebody else ..
Oh wow man.. I feel your pain there. The 304 we get back from laser or water are usually pringles..
That's why you can't beat a good old lathe and tail stock live center.
Slide a foam earplug into the intake of that air nozzle. I used to do that to the loud ones at work and the guys that had to use an air nozzle for every little thing.
Wouldn't that restrict the air flow a lot? Besides these guys don't work for me. So I really can't be messing with them.
Is that steel or something more exotic? I am in school learning to be machinist and like watching your videos for the cnc content, and the (to me) unusual materials.
I believe it was inconel...
Yes it is Incoloy 925 or Inconel 925.
Looking at the geometry and features of that part, I'm gonna guess there is a pyrotechnic charge inside the main cavity that produces a large volume of high pressure gas through that orifice.
I'm not entirely sure what this does. But the reason for the breach closure is. There is a instrument that goes inside. In order not to have to turn the cap many revolutions to close it because of wiring getting twisted to many times. The cap only has to turn a quarter of a turn. The whole thing than gets electron beam welded together. Its something that goes down deep in the ocean I think I heard. These buttress threads are timed precisely with the cap's threads.
@@EdgePrecision I saw the venturi shape, breach, and Iconel, all said "hot, high pressure, optimized flow" to me.
I watch a vid where he mentions how expensive the material is, the next he say's how close he was to scraping one. Imagine how difficult it would be to make that part before cnc or dro, trying to measure down that hole.
I've machined cast iron ( sg ) bars, about 2 inch dia, 2 foot long, they bend a bit when you cut through the skin, but I wasn't working to the tolerances of this guy, a tape measure was used.
Last question for this video will be how you machined the the recesses in the thread. Shaped or angular milling head?
I milled most of it and shaped out the corner radius's left by the endmill's. I think it shows it in another video. Look at the video "Things Are Shaping Around The Shop".
Edge Precision Got it, I often approach things too complicated and probably would have shaped the entire recesses :)
Do you know the technical function of the recesses?
Peter, how did you machine the flutes in the threads?
Dave Anderson I first mill out the flutes. That left radiuses in the corners that were shaped out with a special shaping tool. See my video Things are shaping around the shop. You will see clips of the shaping tool and how it was run. One thing not shown is the thread had to also be timed to the flutes and the mating end cap.
Ah ha! Man I love that machine. Very impressive stuff Peter. Thank you for the videos!
id rough, od rough, then face, then finish id/od one alway affects the other! Always id/od/face.
Hi Peter, is the blank forged?
Technically all material is forged but this is coming out of commercially available 9.0 dia. round bar.
Generally, the one that is hot rolled, does have have such high internal stresses, but if it is hot forged, it will have that. We have toolox 44, that is forged and has spiral marks around it from the forging dies. Its highly directional with axial fiber orientation, if you turn it in one shot, it will move.
Thanks for the video, it shows the issues so clearly!
Just finished watching the whole video, what a beautiful work or art that piece!
Actually, I'd like to also add that the stress relieving can never remove that behavior, since the metal aligns itself in linear fibres which create a bias in stiffness and strength along the fibre direction. So cutting it off will change that stress and thus the bend.
Are you making a cannon breech :P
It does look like a cannon breach. I think because of what's inside this housing they can't rotate the closure many turns to close it.
i have turned these types of super alloys for years. you must know that nicoloy 925{inconel} is a lot like duplex ss.both are used in the aero space ind.and the oil & gas ind.because of their excellent corrosion resistance and strength. inconel 925 has a hi nickel w. iron&cromium,moly,copper,titanium,& alum. it is solution annealed,and age hardened. any heat treated super alloy will have a lot of stress. the best thing to do is rough the piece part out and have it stress relived before finish machining leaving the threads for last.i know its a lot more expensive,but it will save incorrect parts which kill profits. thx rc
Rich Crowell In my experience (closer to 30 years) I've learned that while the Inconel, or any nickel based alloy, have very predicable responses to tools, cutters, inserts ... As well as how they relieve their stresses, the Super Duplex SS is nothing like it. The response of cutting tools, inserts, etc both in turning and milling is very unpredictable, as well as it relieves itself from stresses. I'd say Duplex and Super Duplex are in a place by themselves, and say that Nickel alloys are, though tough, very predictable, more like Cobalt alloys, versus like any type of SS. Just my opinion, based on years of machining many different alloys with many different methods.
Not so much for spark resistance, which it can be, It's for corrosive fluids seen down hole and in the petrochemical industry. I know, I've designed many down hole tools in the past that had to be made from Inconells and Duplex Stainless steels. @steve gale
oh really? I've dealt with ring flanges and standard flanges that had inconel inlays on them. Yeah, more 304 SS used. I can see Duplex not being used in petrochemical. My wrong on that. Can't tell me there's not any inconel 625 piping used in petrochemical processing?. @steve gale
programmed stop for cleaning packed up bore swarf with a M0
Which lathe is that? Manufacturer and model?
It is a Mazak e650H mill turn machine.
on a 25 year old maho 600e you can do the same. prg stop (read botton) spindel stop . . move axes away ,, push cycle start and it runs back and continues prg