1912 Bluthner vs 2018 Bluthner Model 6
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- čas přidán 22. 06. 2019
- In my travels I am lucky enough to get many rare opportunities, and one day recently I ran across just one of those opportunities. A chance to compare a rare 1912 Bluthner to it's modern day counterpart made by the same company just over 100 years later.
- Hudba
The 1912 sounds magical. Well played.
It was a great piano from that era.
I can't have noticed when James compared the Fazioli, the Steinway and the Bosendorfer - which of them has the aliquot system? Heaps of pianos need something like that, because otherwise the treble upwards sounds thin and tinny, and doesn't pair well with the middle and lower range.
The 1912 remembers me the sweet song of the old french Gaveau piano.
Why the fourth string is not free to sound?
The 2018 Blüthner os fantastic
Damn, 1912 Bluthner was made to play Clair de Lune!!!
When this piano was first made, I believe Debussy was still alive and performing that piece! It was first written in 1890.
Debussy owned a Bluthner.
Yeah, for sure!!
the 1912 is probably the best piano i’ve heard, even better than in a steinway and Bosendorfer in my opinion. it’s so perfect, the perfect equilibrium between loud and soft, it’s so delicate and precise, the castings are gorgeous, the case work is gorgeous, this is in the top 3 in my book
Blüthner is just better!
The 1912, hands down! It's beautifully voiced and meticulously restored. Just beautiful! I need whoever voiced that piano to come to my house!
I have Blüthner 210cm made between 1875-80. My piano was renovated in 2000 and since then near two decades of heavy use, now in need of repair. But I always fell in love with my grand piano. Now, listening to both Blüthner, I’m hear listening to the music in my kitchen with big smiles with goosebumps all over my body. But man... the 1912 is just gold.
You can see an incredible change in the casting quality around the name on the harp. On the 1912, every surface is smooth and the figural work is crisp. Even the negative space, the flat below the lettering, for example, is totally smooth. The new one, you can see the courseness of the sand in which it was cast. They didn't even try to touch up the cherubs. I see the same changes in industrial equipment over the same span. An electric motor in 1912, the exposed parts of the castings would be a smooth beneath their Japan black as the 1912 cherub's cheek. The inside of the casting? As rough as the current one's surface, and just like all the unmachined surfaces on an electric motor, today.
Also, the painted lettering. You can see the effort that went into making a good and clear presence on the letters of the 1912, whereas the new one looks rushed with a fine brush, and uneven in how it fails to fill the surface.
So many people talked at length about the sound, and I can hear a subtlety in the 1912 that's lacking in the new one, but I figured I'd point out a few details that caught the eye of somebody with some background in manufacturing engineering.
Rahway Electric Motor: All those nitty-gritty little facts. I'm a sucker for them. Thank you for sharing.
I had the honor of acquaintance with a piano tuner in San Francisco during the 90's. I had always thought that pianos sound pretty much the same until one time I visited him and he had a Bluthner in his shop for repair and tuning. When he sat down and played at that piano I immediately fell in love with the sound because it was so much richer than I was used to hearing. He told the story of having to write to the Bluthner factory for instructions on how to repair and tune it, and they sent him a manual in German which he had to have translated. It must have been an older piano because I remember him telling me that the extra string was above the other three and tuned an octave higher. He also said that when he restrung it he had to ship the old strings to a special dump for toxic waste because the alloy in the strings contained a radioactive material? I have always wanted an older Bluthner and he said he had found one in need of a lot of repair that he was working on securing for me. Unfortunately he passed away. My fondest memory is that he would often lie underneath a piano to listen to it because he said that is where it sounded best. Especially after a couple bottles of wine, lol!
I have an 1897 Bluthner and it is my baby best purchase I've ever made
The extra strings give a gentle whooooooooo sound to the already glorious tone of Blüthner.
So good to see young people so interested and prepared to research classical music in these days. An inspiration to all other young people today, please don't stop James!
1912 is a better tone, in my ear. I think the biggest reason is the wood. The wood available in those days was of a far higher quality-- older, more dense-- than the wood used today. Thanks, James! Love your videos and commentary; very helpful and informative.
Gorgeous pianos, very enjoyable video and your playing is heavenly. I could watch again and again.
Loved this!! Really interesting and fascinating comparison. I love seeing the inside, and hearing your thoughts on the two different actions as well. As a (4 years) piano technician, I LOVE your videos because they allow me to see and hear pianos that I have yet to run into put in the field. And also I’m just a huge nerd and your videos are super cool. Thanks for sharing!!
5:03 That's the aliquot bridge agraffe. The tuned section of those strings comes before the agraffes. The strings beyond the agraffes are muted with the felt strip.
The newer (1970s and on) Bluthner piano's aliquot strings come without that bridge, and are tuned to the same pitch, while these on the older pianos are tuned at an octave higher (just the ones that go through the agraffes, though). The aliquot strings that go past bridge pins are tuned the same as the other three strings.
2 beautiful pianos, love them both for very clear and obvious reasons!
and James is a really brilliant young man with such a good knowledge of what he's doing!
i especially like him more when he 'admits' he doesn't know certain things and asks / invited those who know to participate in the debate and share their information with others ... that's one of the best things about following this highly educational as well as entertaining channel ... 'edutainment' at its best! :-)
James your videos are endlessly fascinating, so many differences between all of these incredible instruments, and of course we get to hear you play beautifully
the 1912 has a slightly better tone
you're such a knowledgeable artist. i love you dude. You just, ughhhhh you're awesome man. Non-biased, to the point, deviating only for juicy nuggets of sidebar while wrapping it up in relevance back to your main point.
James, I always enjoy your videos so much! Thank you for doing what you were born to do.
Called me biased but I prefer the old one. So sweet, and the upper notes so clear and brilliant!
Wow-- thanks for this great side-by-side comparison and demonstration. I love Bluthner and appreciate your showing us the difference between the old and the new.
You know what ??? The 2018 sounds beautiful !!! But I can hear a little more "Magic" in the 1912. By the way, great playing !!!
I just acquired a 1909 Bluthner Model 6, serial number 77000. It is going through a complete rebuild that includes a new soundboard. I am thrilled to hear the difference here and it seems from the comments that all agree....older is better. At least in this case. Thanks for the video. And I can't wait until I get to play mine.
Clair de Lune sounded beautiful on both pianos.
To my ears it was a clearer and purer sound from the older one 😍
Thank you for playing Debussy again, James.
p.s. I meant to say how lovely the fret work of the music stand was.
It's a wonderful piece to play on a piano.
@@ThePianoforever You've inspired me to dig out the sheet music, I'm sure I must have it somewhere in my collection.
You can get it online for free: imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/27826/hfga
Let me know if you have any problems downloading it. It should download in 15 seconds automatically.
There is something really unique and distinctive about the sound of both Blüthners. I can't quite put my finger on it but they have a delicacy (maybe daintiness is the word I'm looking for?) and clarity of tone that I don't think I've heard out of any other piano except maybe a vintage Knabe. What marvelous sounds! Thank you for that special comparison. Great video. Your channel is one of my absolute favorites on CZcams.
The old Blüthners have hammers that do not strike at 90 degrees to the hammer. They have what is referred to as overblow which creates a different noise since the hammer is hitting the string a slight angle. This gives it a very distinct sound that you do not get with modern pianos today. It gives it almost a harp-like quality to the sound which was much more common with the pianos of the 1840s like errards in europe. Most had gone the route of getting more power for the new music of the late 1800s and early 1900s, but in this case blüthner compromised by getting that harp-like quality using strike point geometry which allowed to to also keep the power that the modern designed setup for while keeping the tone that for most pianos had bee lost by the turn of the century.
I have never played the piano, and don't consider myself an aficionado. But, I am interested in engineering, technology, history, and acoustics. So, I find these videos fascinating. More videos on vintage automated music players would be great. Keep-up the great work.
I am always searching from great instruments to review.
June and still rocking the legendary leather jacket. Great video as usual.
The aliquot strings go through a bridge with metal lugs which transfer the vibrations to the soundboard. The length of aliquot string from the lugs to the hitch pins are damped off with braid tape as the vibrating length of these strings stop at the bridge lugs. The important part is that the tuned pitch of these aliquot strings are ‘one octave above’ the unison pitch they are resonating with. This adds upper partials to the sound which would not naturally be there in the unison length string. In the the top end however the aliquots are tuned to the unison and not the octave above as the pitches would get too high. While the aliquot strings are not struck by the hammers they do have dampers to stop the octave partials at the same time as the unison.
Interesting about the differences in the aliquot system between the two. The 1912 creates almost a duplex scale of shorter string length which runs from the capo bar to that little pin you mentioned and is dampened between there and the bridge and behind the bridge to the plate pins as well. Therefore it is producing mostly upper harmonics. Bluthner in the 1912 continued these into the lower register. Now on the recent version, being that they only occupy the upper register and are scaled identically to the other three strings will likely reproduce the same level of upper harmonics without the mess associated with the former.
Let me not forget to say thank you for the effort you put into these videos and the wealth of information we viewers gain from it.
Very interesting and sound comparison. The video recording was much better with nice slow movement and, pauses of the beautuful internal golden structures. Great performance as usual. Could watch/listen for that alone. Well done
Thank you.
I like the sound of these two pianos the best compared to many others that you have played this tune on, always so nicely played I might add. Thanks for all of your videos and detailed descriptions of the pianos you play.
Wow thankyou for this two wonderful pianos The 1912 is amazing and thankyou for giving the measurement in centimetres it makes life so much easier
1912 is the winer for me, perfect balance! Beautifully played James.
That’s easy. The old one sounds beautiful. Really sparking. Nice done. You play very good.
Thank you.
The most mystical piece of music ever composed.
This sound is so beautiful and tender of that old piano !!
The original 1912 while not as solid in bass seems to have a more balanced sound top-to-bottom to these years. It was so wonderful, I listened to it twice. I started to nod off during the second audition. Not that your playing was boring -- far from it! It was so beautiful and restful just as Debussy intended. Good job!
I guess everyone hears things different. I actually thought the older piano had more of a bass sound.
What craftsmanship man - ornate ! Interesting - felt between strings! Debussy, - heaven descends, awesome. Older as you say, sparkly and streaming with dancing moonbeams.
There is something fantastic about a great vintage piano.
Well, since I seem to be the only one who preferred the newer piano, either I am hopelessly acoustically challenged (entirely possible), or my little desktop speaker has let me down yet again. That said, both were marvelous, and you're playing was, as always, mesmerizing. Of course, Debussy played on overturned paint cans would still make my heart soar. More, please!
I’m with you. Mostly because I own a modern one :). The model 6 Jubilee
I preferred the new one too 😬
The old one has come through restoration very well. But the new one has a bit more coherence through all registers, and a fantastic range of overtones.
I liked hearing the overall sound of the 1912 Bluthner slightly more than the 2018; however, you played each beautifully well.
Hi, James, it has sets of four strings per key in the extreme treble like one that I played in São Paulo, although it was built in 1895.
I Like the old model. It has clear and even sound.
Actually I think the 1912 sounds glorious.
Memories! My second teacher was given a Bluthner grand when she was only a girl, and that must have been around the same time this 1912 piano was built. Loved hearing that sound again!
Your comments on the action of the 1912 reminded me of the action on the "special" (personal) grand my teacher at the Conservatorium had. By around 1960, a common complaint against Steinways was that the keyboard was like pushing your fingers through a pie crust - at first, nothing - then it would give way, and you didn't have enough control over how fast it descended - so you were virtually deprived of PPP or PP - P and MF were fairly indistinguishable - and F through to FFF was much of a muchness too. So by the time I left the Conservatorium, I'd made up my mind never to buy one!
The Kawai, BTW, was also ex-Conservatorium (Conservatoriums are a great place to pick up near-new second hand pianos in excellent condition!) - it's not a "baby" grand, nor a full concert grand - it's a professional one, I believe, though - model RX-1, no. 2,412,364. That's one hell of a lot of pianos to sell, isn't it?
Kawai can make good pianos. My second piano in my studio is a Schiedmayer 183 (brand name only) was made in the Kawai factory, but was influenced by German design.
Magnificent playing. You smoked that piece. I mean the pianos are a thing o beauty. But wow. You could make an old upright sound great.
this is a beautifull piano also the sound is amazing. I love the fancy music holder. I love playing clair de lune on my lowrey organ.
I'm far from a Piano expert, but I am a musician and the tone of the 1912 is FAR superior to the 2018. I can hear a clarity that the new one just does not have...even through crappy comp speakers..but more importantly I FEEL the difference in my soul. Thanks for the demonstration.
Beautiful a pleasure to listen.
Weird I missed this video. Very interesting to me as I bought a 1914 Buettner last summer!
My own 1935 Blüthner grand (the smaller baby grand model, which, incidentally, is the only size model for which Blüthner never included the overstringing) sounds, to my ears, more like the earlier than later larger model Blüthner grand that you are playing. For some reason, since my move in 2005, the very top has loss some of its resonance and sustain, not immediately after the move, but within a couple of years following.the move. My own Blüthner was restored, using entirely Blüthner parts imported from Germany. Even the baby grand Blüthner pianos are powerful and sweet-toned for such smaller grands.
Bluthner are the best pianos. build, woods, action, sound - all are best. well played!
The Debussy sounded fantastic on the older piano (and excellent on the new one, too), but I would have liked to hear a snippet of Satie on each of them, too. I think the more resonant bass on the new one might have been the better option on that piece.
I have gotten my hands on a 1911 model 5,8 ft model 5, which has no aliqot but is somewhat the same. Its exterior has seen better days, nice to see what it would look like fully restored. (sound and action though, amazing)
James, I think they changed the configuration of the aliquot stringing because having the additional bridge apparently put extra pressure on the treble area of the soundboard. According to a technician I know who was technical manager at Blüthner London for many years, the addition of the aliquot bridge made the treble brighter by making the board a bit stiffer there, but the extra pressure meant that in certain circumstances the soundboard was more prone to failure and less free to vibrate. Did you know that Blüthner actually produced two versions of each model - one with Aliquot and one without? So there was the Style 8, and the style 7 without, both 6'3, and then they were eventually consolidated into the model 6. Which is best is a matter of preference. The newest Blüthners have a lot more raw power and sustain, the old models have a lot of elegance and clarity, but they're not as powerful. I guess it depends what sound one is looking for! Nice video though, and a great opportunity to compare the two instruments. I notice they've restored the original soundboard on that piano, interesting.
both are cool. great room acoustics quality too
I could def tell a difference between the two. The older piano has a more bass throaty sound to it.
I know absolutely nothing about pianos , don't play, but you certainly make it seem interesting, so, I enjoy watching the videos.
I was wondering if the way they put fewer hitch pins in the new one due to a different manufacture of the string, ie, the metal used and process may be different today. I was thinking that they had to somehow change the way it's done from the old, in order to get almost the same sound. It was just something that crossed my mind. Thanks.
I prefer the sound of the 1912 Bluthner. Nice idea to play them back-to-back!
Never touch the inside cord, strings and pins of any piano without gloves, hand grase ruin the piano, I have my grandmother Bluthner grand piano , she pass away 25 years ago, it's a gem, regards.
Music seems to just flow from the piano from 1912. Thanks for the sharing
1912... what a perfectly round sound. magical
Die 1912er Version hat so einen charmvollen Klang so elegant und warm zwar nicht so super klar und kraftvoll wie die neue Version, aber dieser warme Klang, volle Klang der 1912er Version wunderschön. Mein persönlicher Traumflügel.
I used to own a 6'2" 1913 Bluthner ser no 90215, same Aliquot set up and patent action... until we had a child and the house shrunk leading to me selling it.....miss it every day. The vintage Bluthners have a unique mellow sound like nothing else. I would have another in heartbeat. The action is an acquired taste; certainly lighter than the ubiquitous roller action and it doesn't repeat quite as well but once you get used to it it's fine....but I can understand players brought up on roller actions finding it initially disconcerting.
I have always enjoyed the sound of a Bluthner, and consider them among the finest. Do not know why they are not more popular in North America.
Really good video, James. I believe that prior to World War I, when Bechstein and Bluthner were battling each other for supremacy in the high-end German piano market, Bechstein also had a propriety action exclusive to Bechstein. Who knows, maybe Bosendorfer had its own prorpietary action as well.
By the way, let me correct your German. The letter "J" in Julius is pronounced like a "Y" in English. So "Julius" in German sounds like "Yewlius".
I love that 1912 model.
That really good I like it
Oops! Forgot to ask: are the keys Ivory or plastic? I would imagine Ivory due to the date of the piano manufacture.
They have been replaced and are of course plastic now, same as the new ones.
Claire du Lune sounded so much better on the 1912. Absolutely beautiful!
Just wondered if you have ever tried the old Canadian Heintzman upright... I think you might enjoy. Circa about 1900 to 1920 is best. The touch is like butter and the tone amazing for an upright. Glenn Coates, Magog, Quebec, Canada
You did not comment about the most obvious and striking feature of these pianos which is the I ornate music desk. I wonder whether the scrollwork of the modern piano was had-carved or made on a CNC machine. Years ago, I was shocked when I found out, at least in the case of ornate grandfather clocks, that people would pay extra for imperfect woodwork because they knew that it was hand-carved.
Great video!
Good that you play this piece.......... better to play those kind of music more on piano's. really nice.
The older Bluthner patented action was a genius design in its time to permit rapid repetition and avoid blocking before the Renner type action with spring loaded repetition levers came on the scene. The spring arrangement on the Renner action is superior to its American counterpart.
James have you ever played a piano by the name of George steck or Steck & co?
Might the nicer tone of the older piano be due to the key down-weight and how it alters the way you play?
The entire treble (and not just the topmost keys) on the older Blüthner grand sounds more lyrical than on the later near-replica. Those overstrung strings make a lot of difference. You are right, though, that the bass is more resonant on the newer Blûthner.
The bass even on my 1935 baby grand Blüthner sounds more resonant than the older of the two pianos.
I think the 1912 piano has the edge on the new one.
I prefer the sound of the new Bluthner, just because it reminds me of a 100 year old Model 6 which I tested some years ago...
The difference between the two models is not so vast as you think. Yes, the treble in the old one is a bit more prominent, and the middle section in the new one is a bit thicker; but essentially, once one is accustomed to the sound of his Bluthner, what he retains is a mellow, misty and romantic sound that travels you back to the 19th - early 20th century. A sea of harmonics and saturated sound colors; an instrument which invites and even pulls you into his sound without oppressing you or trying to brag with extra volume.
That said, one cannot but admire the work of the restoration team, which also proves the quality of the 1912 model. The old Bluthner I had tested was untended and neglected for years but you could easily understand how much life it retained under its yellowed keys...
Much MUCH prefer the 1912. Absolutely wonderful
Bluthners are sick🔥
I agree the 1912 piano has no competition in comparison to the newer one. It sound scrisper.
Elevated to accommodate the felt ... ? The older one seems cleaner and better voiced. The older one reminded me of older movies.
Another german product in the US... Blüthner had a license to deliver the Kings and Cesarians, that's what the imprint says at 1:41. Sady everything ended up just a few years later, when the WW1 finished, badly for Germany and Austria.
The 1912 has a sweet sound. The 2018 has a tinny sound in the treble. The 1912 was meant to play Cair de lune on.
15:25 It is probably only me, but I can't stand when all the keyboard shifts.
The perfect amount of schmaltz for this piece.
James why don't you do a video about restoration of the piano and the painstaking steps that reputable restoration company takes when restoring a piano like meyer? after this whole virus thing goes away.
How is an aliquot string tuned? If the hammer doesn't strike them, are they plucked?
Great question. Yes, that would be the only way to sound the note alone.
You would tune the trichords in first, then you pluck the aliquot. The treble is tune and octave higher and the top treble is tuned to the same pitch as the trichords in that area.
I agree with the majority that the old instrument is more colorful. However, even though this seems like the perfect comparison, the devil is in the details: For example, the old Bluthner is actually mostly newly rebuilt, with new hammers, strings and perhaps even a new soundboard. While it seems only 'fair' to avoid comparing an unrestored clunker with a brand new instrument, the old hammers are no longer produced and replicas are usually not like the originals; the strings are copies that are never exact, and if the soundboard was replaced it could even further compromise its originality. At the same time, if the original soundboard has not been replaced, it very likely suffers from flatness, i.e. loss of crown (resulting in loss of sustain, power, an increase of harshness). So, unless you go through the very elaborate process called 'conservative restoration' (thus preserving its superior, aged tonewood) in the way only a handful of restorers worldwide are capable and willing to perform (e.g. Edin Beunk, David Winston, Hampshire Piano), you are still comparing apples with oranges. The sight fluffiness and nasalness in both grands, but more evident in the new one, could also in part come from the sound of brand new hammers not played in yet.
Wow what a beautiful piano!
Claudia Güttl I found it remarkable to be able to play the same model made a century apart in the same store. I find myself lucky to be welcome in some of the worlds best piano stores here in the states.
Beautiful 멋져요♡
I want to know what about the Pianos form the Titanic
1912, Hands down!
Be honest you're a concert pianist aren't you love your playing
This is the Julius Bluthner edition. They retail at 125,000, which seems a about right. Check out their really wild design from 1931 by Paul Hennigsen. www.bluethnerworld.com/index.php/en/instruments/ph-grand-piano
I recorded one a few years ago, but I had to take it down over copyright issues (not to do with CZcams). It's a great piano, and I enjoyed it a great deal.
If you like music, you might want to check out my second channel "Milan Recording Studios". Feel free to subscribe and hit the bell icon if you want to!
czcams.com/channels/u1LrpmWwK1ztTvIayRar9w.html
The 1912 sounds better. This instrument excellently restored !!! is the winner. Also the much lighter action which early 19th century piano's have is certainly an advantage.
One thing is for shure: The 2018 one is not a replica of the original and thats a shame. I wonder why the Blüthner Company did"nt choose for an exact copy of the original.
The other thing that is for shure is that if a 1912 Blüthner after 108 years still sounds so great EVEN BETTER than the 2018 version the Blüthners of the early ninetheen C shure knew how to build an instrument. In other words: GreatGrandPa beats the Baby.
The new Bluthner aliquot system is inferior to the original and was modified for ease of manufacture....no extra tiny damper or elevated bridge post for aliquot unstruck string..... Also economy of fewer aliquot notes.
The 1912 Blüthner is the best
Can't produce that sound on a new piano