Cold Bulk Fermentation Explained | How to Ferment Bread Dough in the Fridge
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- If you have been following me for a while you know that I like to use preferments. They improve the taste, texture and keeping quality of bread. But they add another step to the process. This is where cold bulk fermentation can come in and simplify it.
What is bulk fermentation? We refer to the initial fermentation stage of bread dough as ‘bulk fermentation’. This is the time when the dough develops most of its flavour. The final proof is mostly there for achieving the right volume. It is called bulk fermentation because in bakeries large quantities of dough are fermented before being divided and then shaped into individual loaves or rolls. At home we quite often make just one loaf of bread, so technically it is not bulk fermentation. But we all agree on the term and know exactly what is meant by it when we see it in a recipe.
The longer the bulk fermentation the more intense the flavour of the bread. It becomes sourer as it ferments and has a much more pronounced flavour. This is especially noticeable in naturally leavened bread which is fermented for many hours or even days. A slow fermented bread also keeps better and is not as prone to moulding. Straight-through yeast dough can lack good flavour because it is often fermented for just a couple of hours.
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Hey Charlie, great videos as usual. In case people are using active dry yeast (which seems common in the USA), please do activate it in warm water first. The low temperature through the bulk fermentation means the yeast never gets a chance to activate if not activated initially. Learned it the hard way!
what is the difference between active dry and instant yeast?
I really enjoy your videos because you tackle "What If" scenarios that occur while baking, and provide great visuals as to what could happen as a result. So thanks for sharing this!
For me, I've been making a tangzhong Challah/Brioche kind of enriched bread. When I first began, I realized that it could take 8 hours going through all the steps. I learnt about COLD-PROOFING and have incorporated that into my bread-making process. I can make the tangzhong ahead of time. When I make the dough and give it time for autolyse (45m); I then do the BULK FERMENTATION at room temperature. After 2-3 hours, I punch down to release the gas; stretch and fold into 2 balls; then refrigerate for 2 days.
Initially, I used to do one day. But because I use heavy cream (instead of milk), honey and sugar combined w creamed butter...the FULL rise usually takes place after 24+ hours. It's been very helpful - as those 8 hour bake days (with all the rest times) was making me lose my interest in bread-making. Additionally, it's helped make the dough easier to handle for pre-shaping, because it can hold it's form much better once everything is cooled down.
As for the longest I've kept the dough in the fridge, well before I got my second loaf pan...I used to do one day at a time for baking. And I saw that it could go as long as 3 days. But the third day, there was a stronger yeasty taste along w a faint new element of sourness. The breads visually looked great. But the bread (that was on it's third day cold-proofing) seemed to be weaker and much more crumbly compared to my other one the day before.
Keep in mind, that I only did that once. I haven't done that again, because the breads go by so quickly hehe ;) But that's my anecdotal account.
Thanks again for sharing these vids! Definitely has increased my confidence w baking bread!
When I had a lot of people to feed or was low on money, I would make a large amount of dough, fold it once, rest it then divide it into the portions needed for bread , rolls or pizza and put it directly into the refrigerator in oiled bags. If I wasn’t used by day four, it was still usable but wouldn’t rise as much. Very tasty though . The division into portions acted as the second fold. It made nice steamed then browned buns too.
I’m loving your channel.🕊👍🕊
I didn't know the refrigerated dough should be given some folds. 😱
Will try next time. Thank you for your guidance. 🙇🏻♀️
Thanks again Charles! Every video of yours adds to my knowledge and confidence 😉😉. Really appreciate your sharing of knowledge and skills! 👌
In my very hot kitchen, I've had great success with cold fermented pizza dough, but equally great failure with bread doughs. This video is heaven-sent!
Thanks again for the video Charlie. I often cold bulk ferment my dough using a poolish preferment. The results are always solid especially when it comes to flavor.
thank you for the videos. I went from baking hard rocks on my first tries, to acceptable, now to something quite wonderful after paying attention to the details you provide. bread is just an amazingly simple yet complex. I appreciate your videos!!
Before you channel I was fermenting bread in my belly! Thank you for your precious insights!
Great video! You’re right. You see alot if complicated multi step recipes. I want something approachable but that yields great results. Thanks.
I've used substantially less yeast (1/2 tsp for 1 loaf) BUT I've never used the cold fermentation method. I like the concept and will certainly try it.
Always look forward to the next one. You do a very good job.
I've found that diastatic malt powder totally changed my bread. Gave it so much more flavor. Highly recommend the malt powder. Glad to see someone talk about it, seems like its often not talked about and most people have never heard of it.
As an experienced home bread baker, this video is great. I normally do room temp bulk ferment on the counter, shape, proof and bake next morning. If anything, I might do 4 hour bulk, shape and final proof in the fridge. I will try this, thanks.
Very very informative video! Chainbaker's videos quality is that every second counts
I have been using a 24 hour bulk cold Ferment for a long time not every time but certainly a tool. One thing I took from this video that I haven't been doing but I just did and love the early development. Results. I was just under mixing in a KitchenAid for three or four minutes than directly bulk fermenting 24 to 48 hours and so on. But using your suggestion every 20 minutes for 3 times I folded the dough. I love the early development.
My hydration level is 72%. I am using local Panamanian flour and about 3 to 5% vital wheat gluten. 😃
The extra three steps that I just used in the early stage is a great idea
I cant stop watching your videos mate
🤩
It is nice to finally get a name for the process I have been using more or less exclusive the last years.
Cold bulk fermentation, who could guess.
Thanks once again young Man. You “Always put so much Time and Effort” in to your “Explanations and Demonstrations.” You have opened up a whole new world to me. So much more rewarding than other projects. The Big “Payoff” is that I get to Share “Unique and Delicious Creations” with Family and Friends. Seeing their reactions after taking a bite is “Incredibly Gratifying.” May God Bless you and your Family.
Why the quotes?
I'm preparing a batch cold fermentated dough to have for the next 5 days. Efficiency haha
I'm worried to go past the 5 day mark, but have heard of people going further. The dough has a lovely light smell of beer at 5 days, and makes a great focaccia or grandma pizza.
Also, I use 0.7% yeast, which I'll play around with. I only started making bread a month ago and will never look back.
I'm glad you've mentioned percentages so much. As you say, it's given me the knowledge to create my own recipes.
Looks so tasty and delicious . Thanks for sharing
I gave the bulk fermentation a try and wow, what a result. The dough was in the refrigerator for 5 daysand I only did 3 or 4 folds in the first day. The second proofing was only about the length of time it takes to preheat the oven as it passed the poke test shortly after I did the final shaping. I was surprised so I preheated and baked it. The flavour was outstanding!
😎👍
i always cold bulk ferment my bakes,it is,like you said,super convenient!
Today I baked Jamaican coco bread. I used tangzhong dough improver. I made cinnamon buns with half of the dough and garlic butter rolls with the balance. They all turned out very good. I appreciate all your instructional videos.
Sounds awesome! :)
Seriously incredible instruction... thank you Sensei
😁
Cold bulk fermentation always works! The flavors and bread textures are better. And personally it helps me better manage my time. Thanks for featuring this. 😊😊😊
It's my new favourite method! Such a great way to simplify baking :)
Couldn’t agree more 😊
Great info! Last weekend, that's exactly what I did for m pizza dough. It's definitely more convenient this way.
Wow, Beautiful Upload friend. keep it up. Thank you for sharing this to us. Greetings from Korea
Hey ChainBaker, heads up: In some refrigerators, the TOP shelf is the coldest shelf. A lot of refrigerators are cooled by the same compressor that serves their connected freezer side and these are often fed cool air from the top of the refrigerator, meaning they are icy cold at the very top(mine is like this and our milk will freeze solid if left on the top shelf, toward the freezer side).
It's a best practice to measure the temperature of each shelf in your fridge, especially when using it for cold fermentation. Also suggested to measure the temp in the front and back on each shelf. In my fridge, the top shelf averages 4C/40F , the bottom shelf averages 2C/36F.. Those few degrees don't sound lime much, but when it comes to adding flavor to dough with cold fermentation, those few degrees difference will make a noticeable difference in the flavor of the dough for the same length of cold fermentation.
I’ve had my sourdough starter freeze on me in the fridge, but I caught it in time, not frozen all the way.
@@Rob_430 If your sourdough starter freezes, it will be fine. Take it out of the fridge to thaw on the counter, then once un-frozen, feed it for a couple days. It will be happy again.
Tq
Yr a great teacher
Convenience is useful factor
Mamma mia! Thay foccacia looks HEAVENLY!!! I'm going to try a sourdough version!
Can’t wait to try this technique
Well done! Thanks for all the infos! :) Subscribed! I'm new to baking and also fermentation! Man, I love this stuff! :) So satisfying to bake with and for my son and my partner.
Cheers! :))
Love this method, I have successfully used preferment with the cold bulk. Pan de Lancione in the Bread Bakers Apprentice is an amazing cold bulk ferment recipe
This is by a very wide margin the best instructional baking chanel ever.
I just want to comment on the remark made that it make sno sense to cold ferment more then 24h. It makes all the sense, for some people, me included. Mostly for pizza dough. I never know when will I have time to bake. Because it includes final proofing, shaping etc.. It's a time investment. With little kids and various other stuff, I never know. Sometimes it's 12h, sometimes it's 36, have gone up to 4 days even. Still makes fine pizza, or shallow fried pizza bread.
You're right! I should perhaps make a video about extended cold fermentation times and do some comparisons. Sounds interesting :)
I have used bulk fermentation in the past. I did not know that you could leave it for up to 24 hours fridge. That is use full to know. Thank you.
Thank you for your fine video. I've been experimenting with cold fermentation and found my way here while searching for the answer to 'what is better, bulk cold fermentation or a poolish?' Now that I've gotten several cold fermented doughs under my belt I will make and compare their poolish equivalents.
thanks for sharing . love it
Made the pizza from this video today. It came great, and the cold bulk fermentation was really time-saving, except that the pizza was too thin for me, so I'll probably double the amounts next time😂
Thanks for another awesome video❤❤
My kitchen is rather warm in summer, so I always cold bulk ferment my sourdough, especially if it contains any wholegrain flour, otherwise it all happens too quickly. However, I've never refrigerated the dough between folds, which indeed makes sense ... Thanks for the idea, I'll sure try it out.
Charlie, this video is 💯. Pizza looks so good. As I am the reining king of procrastination, I might be able to provide you with insight on a long, cold bulk proof. I'll put it in the fridge and keep telling myself "Oh, I can finish that tomorrow." That can go on for days. It just comes naturally to me. (I would drive Jeepy to madness!)
Yes, Philip - I agree!! 😆😆
I like your method 😄
What a superb crumb on these breads! And, that focaccia is something else. Really nice.
I do cold bulk ferments using dough made with sourdough starters (typically 10 - 20% of the flour). After all wild yeast is still yeast, it just works a slower. Preferments will work just the same. All we are doing is slowing down the fermentation, so there is little need to start altering yeast quantities unlike yeasted preferments where we adjust it for slower development times on the worktop.
As you say retarding doughs does increase bread flavour quite markedly. However using only yeast has the disadvantage that there is no Lactobacillus (LABs) activity unlike a sourdough starter. The LABs have a super complex relationship with yeasts and each complements the others enzymes. Together they literally feed each other and the flavours that they develop together are deeper and more complex than using yeast alone. The LABs in yoghurt are different species not suited to this brewing relationship, but yoghurt does add a little acidity and the yoghurts fats give a softer crumb.
I cold bulk fermented a big bowl of sourdough Naan dough last night. It worked fine. I cold bulk ferment when the final loaves are less suitable for cold proofing because of size, shape, or too many. So Baguettes and Ciabatta, because its hard to fit them into my fridge once shaped and flat bread dough because as little boules there just wouldn't be enough room in the fridge for the trays. These all get cold bulk fermented. Anything that will fit into a banneton or bread tin, is cold proofed. I use disposable shower caps to cover the bannetons. My current disposable shower cap has been washed and re-used for almost a year. I have a bag of a hundred or so... Doubt I will get through them!
I don't take my cold bulk ferment doughs from the fridge to give them coil folds. After all, like you, I am also doing this to manage bread baking into my schedule. At the heart of no-knead breads is the fact that gluten will develop without kneading if given time. In a cold bulk ferment we are certainly doing that. So I do a little stretch and folding after the cold bulk ferment just to stretch out those gluten sheets. It doesn't take much, with bread rolls five seconds pulling the dough around the work top in small circles with my fingers and palm making a cage is all that's needed. This little bit of extra shaping means that the alveoli are smaller and there are more of them as in sandwich breads. Whereas minimal shaping with a cold proofing better allows for those big open alveoli sought after in the French style Tartine breads.
There is much food for thought for me in this video. I never bother with diastatic malt and don't have problems with the yeast running out of sugars. I suspect because the yeast is fermenting slower, not metabolising more sugars. I should try it though. It is supposed to increase loaf volume and it's sitting in my fridge for the rye doughs anyway.
I'm not sure there is any flavour differences between cold bulk fermentation and cold proofing. The flavours come from the yeast fermenting the flour and as long as the yeast gets a good long ferment it's going to produce those flavours anyway.
Much for me to chew on here. Sorry for the essay Charlie and thanks, a really well done video as always.
*A couple of after thoughts:*
Our American cousins should check their four packets. Amylase is the key enzyme we are going after with diastatic malt and I read on the U.S. forums that increasingly either amylase, or diastatic malt is being added to retail flours in the States, especially to All-purpose four. Too much diastatic malt
makes the crumb gummy and too much amylase will make the dough too soft and extensible.
For doughs with high sugar content there are yeasts bred to cope with the increased osmotic pressure. They are called 'Osmotolerant' yeast. They are frequently sold on Amazon.
Happy baking, thanks and cheers :)
Great insights, Kevin. Thank you! 😎
Nice!
Nice tub of Mae Ploy! Best curry paste brand
Lots of good info. I have a sourdough sandwich bread that's stretch/folded 4 times and then goes in the fridge for 2-3 days. I like your idea of starting to cool down between folds so I'm going to incorporate that idea on my next dough making day. I suspect cooling the dough down sooner may allow it to cold ferment a bit longer before it outgrows it's bulk fermentation container. THANKS!
I can report back that cold fermentation through the initial stretch and fold part of the bulk fermentation did it's job. Instead of doing it at room temp with 30 minutes between 4 stretch and folds, as soon as I mixed the dough it went in the fridge with the 4 steps being 30 minutes, 40 minutes, 60 minutes and 120 minutes. The last 2 stretches were 2 hand operations but other than that everything was pretty normal. I then put the dough away and it took 5 days instead of 1-2 days to double in size. I baked the loaf and have really great sour flavor. Thanks for the idea!
Awesome! :))
I've made your cinnamon buns a few times; I make them at night, and let them rise overnight in the fridge. By the time I wake up, they've risen nicely, and I get to eat fresh cinnamon rolls for breakfast. It works very well.
This may be the most educational video of yours I've yet seen.
Greater than 24 hours cold ferments make a lot of sense for family meal planning. You can make dough on Sunday for various meals throughout the week. The flavor does improve as well.
Excellent information overall!
Hey Charlie, great video as always! Your no-nonsense videos on baking have gotten me into it recently, my sourdough starter (Bob) is alive because of you! I know you surely have a long list of videos, but I'd love for you to cover vegan alternatives in baking (such as using coconut oil) as my girlfriend loves that I'm now baking, but some of the stuff I make she can't have. Cheers!
I have used vegan butter (earth balance) and various plant-based products to sub for some of the ingredients. I used oat milk as the wash for ChainBaker's Sourdough Pumpkin "loaf" to make it vegan. Bob's Red Mill makes a flax-seed powder to use as an egg substitute, but you would loose the color that and egg yolk would provide.
@Sultry Stopsign I mean.. I didn't properly clean out the old jam jar he was in so he went mouldy and died after a week (r.i.p Bob 2022). I've learnt now though :D
@@Jeepy2-LoveToBake I've heard of the flax-seed egg before, though I've not tried it yet - I'll definitely give it a go! I've started drinking more oat milk, so I'll just substitute that in where possible - I just wasn't sure if it would have different effects on cooking due to it lacking proteins, etc. that you get in cow milk.
The main ingredient to be replaced most of the time would be butter. Since it is around 80%, all you need to do is swap it with any vegan alternative. When it comes to milk, then my Milk video will give you the right answers. It is 90% water and that is the main thing to keep in mind ;)
An 18-24 hour 60% biga finished with an autolysed then 24 hour cold fermentation makes for a great chew. Give it a try sometime!
9:20 - yes please do a comparison video(s) - comparing flavor difference (or lack thereof) of pizza dough made from pre-ferment (poolish) vs bulk fermentation vs pre-ferment plus bulk fermentation. I used to always use a poolish for pizza dough, but then decided I can't even tell the difference vs pizza dough that was bulk fermented in the fridge. Bulk fermentation is, as you say, much more convenient!
I've heard that adding an acid such as lemon juice effects the dough. Maybe you could do an experiment on this?
I really appreciate your work in revealing the truth in bread!
God bless! ❤️
ڤيديو رائع شكرا على المشاركة بالتوفيق يارب والنجاح الدائم مع تحياتي وحبي 🇲🇦👍❤️
"It doesn't make much sense to cold ferment sourdough." Bingo! You just answered the question I've been researching for the last half hour. Thanks much.
What I meant was 'as opposed to cold final proofing'. It is still a great fermentation method for sourdough as the cold temperature promotes acetic acid which gives it an even more sour taste.
@@ChainBaker Thank you for clarifying. I've also heard that 12+ hrs. of fermentation gives the bread a big boost of good bacteria.
In sourdough especially. Not too much in commercial yeast dough :)
This is the only way that I've done breadmaking, in the case of Adam Ragusea's pizza dough method. In his recipe, he leaves the dough entirely undisturbed until baking time, drawing out fermented flavors from several days in the fridge. This fits into my life rather well, though maybe you can just call that laziness!
I would prefer to use this method on at least some of the recipes. I also started fermenting my cookie dough recently to some good results. Slow and cold can yield wonders.
My cookie game is lacking, is there anyone you can recommend on CZcams, as good as chainbaker is with bread, he has transformed my bread game, I feel like a professional baker and I discovered his principles early 2021, but I can go toe to toe with the best of them, at least in my country
@@ckks0nyoutube I use Babish's Chocolate Chip Cookies recipe.
Thanks!
Thank you, Roger! 🤩
I love all your videos, always super helpful. Quick question why do you add small amount of rye flour to the flour?
It makes the bread taste better.
I usually use it just for bread, never for pizza or focaccia which I usually do at room temperature.
I add 8 gr of yeast and 350Gr of water to a bowl, mix it well, then add 500Gr of white flour, 8-10gr of salt (depending on what I will be using the bread for), mix it and knead it for 10 minutes, fold it 5 more minutes then cover it and put it in the fridge at 4 C° for 18 to 24 hours, then straight from the fridge into the oven at 200 C° on the second last bottom level for 45 to 55 minutes.
It always comes out so good, with the right amount of flavor and acidity, great color, with even small air bubbles through all of it. It may be not the most complicated recipe ever, but kneading it with the machine and folding it only once I basically spend 5 minutes to add the ingredients to the bowl, 5 minutes folding it and then just leave it into the fridge and pop it into the oven the day after, it's really an incredible result for just 10 minutes of work, it makes a world of difference over any store bought bread.
For cooking the pizza, I like to pop it into a large dry frying pan that is smoking hot and dry fry the base, once it’s a bit scorched then I put it under the grill that’s on the highest setting, once the cheese is done to my liking then they are all done. It’s a really good imitation of a pizza oven and cooks the pizza really quickly. I often do 3-5 pizzas in an evening for my friends and I and they only take a few minutes each
That sounds like a great method. I'm gonna have to try. Cheers!
I do something like this for my pizza dough. I bake a fresh sourdough pizza pretty much every day.
I make a large batch of dough, portion it out and cold ferment it in the fridge. Each day I can take one dough ball out let it final proof and bake!
I would guess the limit is around 6-7 days, but it probably depends on the amount of yeast or your sourdough. By the sixth day, your racing the final proof versus the gluten. Because at that point there's not much gluten left and it becomes hard to handle and easy to tear. It still makes good bread if you manage it, just have to be super gentle with it, especially if you're stretching it like a pizza.
Agreed, It's hard to see dough in the fridge and not make pizza every time.
Regarding sourdough, today I baked a cold proofed sandwich bread and a cold bulk fermented rolls, both from the same dough. The result is really great. The convenience here has to do with the space in my fridge: there is no room for two sheets of rolls!
Hi Charlie, simply, I love all your videos. Thank you for your time and effort. Wondering if it would be possible to use bulk fermented dough to make a loaf for every consecutive day, meaning when dough is ready to make one loaf, then next day next loaf and last day last loaf, all of it from the sam bulk fermented dough. Thanks
Definitely! It will only get tastier over time ✌️😎
I do it each time I make bread.
I make 3 breads at a time (for family) and I use poolish and cold fermentation.
Tried all from 1-7 days in the fridge, found out 4days gives the best taste, not much different between 4 and 7 for me with the recipe Im using.
The longer it stays the more like sourdough it taste.
GREAT VIDS...what was the you pushed into the focaccia before baking? ..something I like to do with my pizzas, I have what I call a triple sour dough, after I have a cold fermented sour dough (refriged because I was not ready to make a pie) and then I have my "sour dough" poolish that I keep going in perpetuity, I then mix the cold fermented and room temp together, then activate some dry yeast to the batch to the sour dough flavor with the fluff and crispy texture achieved with the dry yeast, to get the best of both worlds and a pizza that will knock your socks off... I try to learn as much as I can about fermenting, and HANG ON every word you say, because you are saying a lot, ...much appreciated.
Cheers! :) It was roasted peppers and roasted aubergines.
Thank you for the video!! I was intrigued about your comment of not needing to let the dough warm up after coming out of the fridge... I usually do let it warm up. Do you know if this adds any benefit? Perhaps the texture wouldn't be so tight?
As far as letting a dough go "too long" in the fridge... I definitely have done that. As a busy homeschool mom, I don't always get to it. In my experience, I have been surprised by how long pizza dough can go for. It seems to always do very well. I haven't pushed the limits on heavily enriched doughs... though I'm usually not going for a super fermented flavor with those.
I've accidentally let sourdough go too long... unfortunately that was a fail. The dough broke down.
Thank you again for all of your super helpful videos!!
I prefer handling it when it's cold. Makes life easier :) I don't think it changes the end result much. Btw here's an extreme fermentation time test - czcams.com/video/RuYfuBuOvGk/video.html
Your videos are so thoughtful and thorough. I really, sincerely, appreciate all of the work you are putting into this. I have learned so much about bread making from you. Thank you. I have a quick question. I have a sourdough recipe that I really like, but I would like a more open crumb. I was thinking that increasing the hydration would accomplish this, but I was wondering if you have a video on how to modify a recipe to increase the hydration (or is this the wrong approach)? I have seen your videos on baker's percentages and your videos on handling doughs of differing hydrations, but I was not sure if there was another video I missed somewhere. I would imagine that just adding water to the existing recipe would not work since the levain now represents a smaller percent of the overall bulk and has to raise a higher mass of dough proportionally. Is it really as simple as reducing the total flour in relation to the total water while aiming for a similar % levain? Sorry if this is out of the scope of this video. Please feel free to ignore my question!
Thank you, Arnold! I would keep it simple. When I want a more open crumb, I just increase the hydration by a few % and then work from there. The amount of water does not increase by that much anyway, so there should not be any complicated adjustments. Especially because it is SD. Yes, a higher hydration dough can ferment more rapidly, but a naturally leavened bread takes a long time anyway, so it should not affect it that much.
What another great video as always . This may seem like a stupid question, but I am still a complete novice so here goes. Can you or would you use cold bulk fermentation for balking sourdough boule and batard dough? Thanks.
Edit, what a dope I am, I have just seen your cold fermented farmers bread video! 🙃
Certainly! You can use both methods for pretty much any bread. Here is a cold proofing guide czcams.com/video/fMq3eUSgv28/video.html ✌😎
That feeling when you realize you had a weird fridge in the past. The top section of an old fridge I used to use would often freeze stored goods there, while the bottom was regular fridge temperatures. (The freezer was on the bottom of the fridge as well.)
Mine is super old and freezes stuff on the top or bottom 🤣 still trying to find the sweet spot on the temp knob. Tried adjusting it then my milk went bad🤦🏽
@@i.Gnarly Oof no good. I wish you the best of luck in figuring out how to make the old fridge do what it needs without overdoing it in other areas.
For my pizza dough, I use a preferment and cold ferment the final dough for 2 days. The preferment really improves the flavor imo
You inspired me to make cold fermented focaccia. I took it out of the fridge at noon and will finish it after work today. How convenient! I absolutely love watching your videos. I do have a question though. I keep hearing people in various FB groups say that salt kills the yeast if you add them at the same time. Many recipes call for autolyse without salt. Then add it in with a little water after an hour. In your experience, seems like salt has no negative effects on the yeast. What are your thoughts on that?
Mixing salt and yeast does no harm. Here's a video about it czcams.com/video/ez95TmSKG04/video.html ✌😎
As always a very informative video. What about SD bread making? After mixing all, can you put in refrig right away? How long should it stay there before shaping? Would it need to go back to refrig after shaping? Using this method to get max fermentation, what would be average time from mix to bake? Right now after mix, i go 5 - 7 hrs. @ RT, then I shape and pass poke test before putting in frig for about 18 hrs. Thank you!
I personally stick to cold final proofing when it comes to SD. Refrigerate the dough after final shaping and then bake it right from the fridge on the next day.
@@ChainBaker ..thank you...
This is a very very good video pls make more. I just have a question. Why do we need to make he desired dough temp 28C if your just gonna cold bulk fermentation? What does it do? Thank you so much
It still needs to be at the correct temperature to start fermenting properly and to be predictable.
@@ChainBaker thank you so much for your answer nowI understand it! Thank you for all your hard work we are learning so much from you chain baker!!
Charlie, would you consider doing at AMA? I love your channel and want to know more about you.
I'm pretty boring in real life. All I do is work and make videos, and travel occasionally when the work becomes too much 😄
Great vid Charlie!
I have interesting experience with your NYC pizza. I made it quite often coz it was so delicious. Last month i made the dough on Sunday morning, divided it into three separate containers: two in the ceramic bowls covered with cling wrap and one in the plastic airtight container. Keep it in the fridge and have plan to eat pizza for dinner on Monday. But my office workload made me have no chance to make pizza until Thursday. The two in ceramic bowls still nice and cold but one in the airtight container is a mess. The top of dough ball dry and crusty but watery at the bottom.
It still have pleasant smell of fermented flour but its texture makes me scared so i throw it away. The two turns out to be the most delicious pizza crust i have ever made!! So...i will not use airtight container to keep my dough for cold fermentation ever again. I do not know why, maybe the yeast doesn’t have enough air to live?
Interesting. Plastic does work more as an insulator so perhaps the dough stayed warmer for longer and over fermented.
Aah...You are right, thats why my dough in plastic container not as cold as the others in ceramic bowl and has over fermented symptoms. Many thanks Charlie, your reply enlighten me hahaha...
Question? Using this cold bulk ferment method, for any regular type bread, an artisan white bread for example, if there a % of rise in the fridge that you that you aim for? Normally recipes say the dough should rise double or sometimes triple. Should we leave the dough in the fridge until possibly a double in dough size? Thanks for the video and web site.
The same rule applies. I usually let it double ✌️
@@ChainBaker Thanks!
I really like how lovely every bread looks that you make, despite these being mere experiments. one can truely see that it's your passion.
Also, the yolk coatings look really nice. When I do them, they look like a cheap copy. I don't know why they look so cheap.
Not magic. CB has shown that, thoroughly beaten egg and milk, full coating, wait then second coating. Just like that. You can look at the coating before you bake anything to see where the shine will and will not be. Dont forget to cover your nice browned breads if they burn before you thermometer says 190+ so you dont ruin all your hard eggwash work :)
@@TikkaMasalaa1 I think that something goes wrong during baking. Even though it's dry, it looks a bit shiny, but not in a good way, more like I baked some plastic...
Check out my Glazing video. Perhaps you will find a solution ;)
Hi Charlie thanks for this video. Since I first saw it, I have used the method twice with great results. However, I have noticed the dough is quite difficult to work with when cold to do the final shaping of a loaf bread. The video says not the let the dough warm up before final shaping but should I let it rest after preshaping for significantly longer to make it more malleable?
I would suggest increasing the hydration. It will be easier to work with and you'll end up with a bread that will stay fresh for longer.
Thanks, I will try bumping from 65-70% hydration and see how it goes next week.
Another great techniques you shared. Thank you. If I do this method for large quantity, let's say 5kg of flour, any changes in method necessary? Since the temperature distribution would take longer time. Do I need to give more folding? Looking forward to your advise.
I would probably lower the final dough temperature. A larger dough can ferment more rapidly. Extra folds will help it cool down quicker for sure.
@@ChainBaker Ahhaaa... The key is folding. I live in tropical country, and getting lower dough temperature mean mixing the ingredients with ice. Thank you for the advice.
I would like your opinion about one other problem I face. In my whole-wheat bread, I used 200gr wholewheat and 325gr plain flour plus another 200gr in form of poolish. I also add 5gr of bran to the mixture with 440gr water, yeast 7gr, 30gr palm sugar, and 7gr salt. I can't seem to have standard shape to my end loaf. sometime it just collapse when baked. Some references I got say it is because of the wholewheat flour and bran that slice over the gluten. Please advise. Thank you.
Bran can be in the way of gluten development, but it should not make your bread collapse. Perhaps it is over proofed? Perhaps it was too weak and you could mix it more or give it more folds?
@@ChainBaker I proof the bread to fill a 1kg pan. Do you think the amount of ingredients are too less for that pan so to get the pan filled the gluten got torn?
@@ChainBaker I tried your suggestion to add more folding to my dough, and the end result is much better Thank you for your advice.
Charlie, what do you think the differences might be, 12-hour cold bulk ferment vs 12-hour room temp ferment, with the latter using cold tap water and a tiny pinch of yeast (1g or less). Same handling, etc. I'm pleased with the results of cold bulk, but it seems to me that I got better volume and oven spring with long room temp ferment.
This should answer it - czcams.com/video/YrQMc2v0Z3Q/video.html 😎
When cold fermenting for 24 hours, I too use about 1% IDY. When I cold ferment dough two days or longer, I use 0.35% IDY. I also use DMP at 0.4% in most all of my yeast doughs, regardless of fermentation time. I like the subtle flavor bump it gives to the dough, and the baking dough smells great like you're in a bakery.
If I need to make dough to use today, I use a room temp ferment, and still use 1% IDY, but use a water temp around 30C/86F. I still do the same techniques of folds, preshaping, and final shaping needed for the style of dough being made, but they happen at much shorter intervals. Generally, from starting to mix the dough until out of the oven, the entire process at room temp takes 3-4 hours. Not as tasty as cold fermented dough, but still pretty good bread or pizza crust.
For reference, my kitchen temp runs between 76-78F/24-25C from late spring until early autumn. During cooler months, my kitchen averages 72F/22C so room temp final proofing or fermentation take a bit longer.
Thanks for the IDY percentages. I'm pretty new and have been cold fermentating at 0.7% IDY. It makes good bread but the dough looks like it's fermentating too much after day 2.
I'm assuming lowering the IDY will slow this process further.
@@smoothcortex You are correct. If you want to cold ferment longer, say four or five days, lower the IDY to 0.17%. I know some bakers that use 0.12% for extended cold fermentation. Same rules apply regardless of cold fermentation length once you take it out of the fridge regarding letting it final proof properly at room temperature. It will just take longer at these lower yeast percentages.
Two processes happen when dough is rising and fermenting. Simply put, the yeast is the primary driver that creates pleasant dairy kind of notes by creating lactic acid. The bacteria in the flour produces the more sour or vinegary notes by creating acetic acid.
With typical room temperature bread making using recipes that can make bread in a few hours, the flavor is mostly from the yeast. The bacteria doesn't rally get enough time to produce much sourness. This is where cold fermentation can help.
When we cold ferment, it makes the yeast mostly dormant, so it doesn't produce much lactic acid or gas to leaven the bread. However, the bacteria doesn't slow down as much, allowing it to produce more sour tasting dough. When the dough is removed, the yeast wakes up, does it's thing, and the dough rises.
Note that when making bread and cold fermenting for extended periods using very small yeast amounts like 0.35 or 0.17%, when you take it out of the fridge to proof, that proofing will take longer as the yeast has to multiply a lot compared to using higher yeast percentages, but it will happen. Just give it time to final proof properly, the bake.
@@timmerrill Thank you. I've been splitting the dough so I can understand the flavour development over the days, and always look forward to the end of the week.
Those lower values make sense. If there's too much active yeast you risk not allowing the bacteria to develop enough flavour, as well as over fermentating (which happened with yesterday's bread).
I'm also starting to understand how much temperature effects these variables and the resulting bread. Water, room and fridge temperatures.
Ah yes. It makes more sense now. By modulating the yeast amount you can be more consistent with bread when other variables change, such as temperature.
So yeast is the control? More so than water and temperatures?
@@smoothcortex The amount of yeast and temperature are the two major factors that affect rising and fermentation. Other things like salt, sugar, hydration, types of flour, fats, etc., can all have an impact, but the amount of yeast and the temperature of the ingredients and the environment are 85% of it. @ChainBaker has a playlist titled "Principles of Baking" with videos in it that discuss fermentation and temperature. Since you indicated that you're starting off new, all those videos in that playlist are great videos to watch to help wrap your head around what's going on when making dough.
Thanks for the percentages! I am yet to try a several day cold ferment. But it's definitely on my list. I wonder what the limit is?!
Just wondering what the difference is if you just use less yeast and not worry so much about cooling the dough down so fast. I do the same process with stretch intervals but don’t put in fridge until after all that but I only use .20 - .35 % yeast. I can leave it in fridge for 1 - 3 days and pull out a few hours before using maybe less in summer.
That sounds like a perfectly fine method. It's just a different way of doing it. I don't think there would be a difference in the result in the end. Depends on what is more practical for you :)
nice video, als always, thanks.
Can one use nutritional yeast instead of diastetic malt powder?
Thanks :) I have not tried using nutritional yeast yet. Not sure how it works. You can just leave the malt powder out too.
@@ChainBaker nutritional yeast is the remains of yast. As homebrewer I often used a trick, you know I used the yeast from real good belgian beers, but where a baggie of commercial yeast usually has the nutrients for yeast to grow and ferment a said amount of wort, yeast grown yourself has none of that. Same with the making of honey wine (mead) one needs nutrients for the yeast to be able to ferment all the way, the trick was, boil a liter of the remaining yeast slurry from a previous or other fermentation, making it sterile and destroying the yeast yet letting all the yeast parts reside, and use that as yeast feed. That is why i use nutritional yeast flakes now. (also funny, it has the nice flavor, for a test long time ago i just did a 70% hydration dough made from spelt water, spelt flour, nutritional yeast and baking powder, took 5 mins to make, made a second pizza out of it. Ok ful grain spelt has way more depth in flavor the wheat but still, the taste was just very good. Also for flatbreads, in a pinch, yeastflakes and baking powder does the job of ginving it a fermented taste at a fraction of the time.
I will definitely get my hands on some nutritional yeast. Sounds like a great way of adding flavour. I love all your experiments and methods :)
A question from a novice baker. I tried a cold ferment recipe but the result was not very impressive soft but dense crumb.How to know when the fermentation is done and when you proof after shaping is it also done in cold or at room temp?
Bulk fermentation is done when the dough is about doubled in volume. Final proof is done sooner than that. There will be a video about this soon.
Is using a proofer the same as cold bulk fermentation in the refrigerator
If the proofer can be set to a very low temperature, then yes!
Can you divide, shape and then cold proof all night? Next morning just take out of the fridge and bake?
Thanks @chainbaker
You certainly can. Check the Cold Fermented Bread playlist for some inspiration ✌️
Quite informative, I have seen only a few of your videos and learnt so many things, many doubts and delusions got cleared too. One thing I'm not sure about is the temperature of the refrigerator for cold ferment pizza dough, should I keep it at 4 ° celsius Or more? My fridge won't go beyond 8° celsius.
Keep it low. If the dough is fermenting too slowly, then try using slightly more yeast.
@@ChainBaker thanks for your response, I really appreciate it.
what about cold bulk ferment with a sourdough discard recipe with yeast?
Try it! Discard can be used up in many ways. Adding it to yeast dough is a great way to get rid of it.
I'm getting better with my bread but wanna go higher hydration, so I was thinking -
-should I autolyse before cold ferment ? Would this help my high protein flour ?
-my 16% flour (I mix it down some) it tends to pool post-proof. Still rises fine, ish and tastes fantastic. But the other day I used solely 14% and it looked exactly like your loaf when I moved it from proof to oven. I've been kneading this before starting the cold ferment (starting with 16c water instead so it's still 25c going in the fridge) is this a good or bad thing ? With the high gluten I figured some extra kneading might help. I'm also folding it more often - should I put it in the fridge colder to compensate ?
I wanna make some lighter bread today as I'm about to make potato carrot and pancetta soup so I want a nice bread, rther than the super crusty version I normally go with, so I think tonight I'm gonna try the autolyse method (it's like 3am so I'm not asking any questions I expect answers to for this loaf! lol..
I wanna go higher hydration so I was thinking - autolyse, stand mixer for 5mins (I have a wonky arm, I paralyzed it years back and it didn't heal right so kneading takes ages, I tend to impart about 8-10c), but get it in the fridge around 20c instead as my fridge is 4c. Just do 1 or 2 folds and and see how that comes out.
My bread has all been fine, when it's cooked. It's the pooling that i wanna get rid of. When I did the non-pool one with the 14% it was great but was kinda dense tbh. But I think this was because I only proof for 2h. I've also only recently got a proofing basket that actually holds the thing I put in and lets it rise, rather then go sideways or outways. I got a tupperware and just used a shedload of tinfoil, it's almost like a modular proofing basket lol. Also my pizza stone was the cheapest one available and I'm kinda thinking it's not a proper one. My bottoms are never crispy. That and my tray for water on the bottom is aluminium so while it steams a little, it dissipates heat so well that there's always a huge puddle left on, so I need something iron for the bottom on my shelf. Or I could just get the cast iron/lid.
I would actually just love a good dutch oven but the thought of paying 100 quid just to make bread hurts my soul.
ANYWHO i'll shut up now. Cheers mate!
EDIT: I got a new thermometer today. Turns out my old one was like 4-5 degrees out. So bread going in fridge at 25/26 was actually 30. and my fridge is 1.5c not 5c. Explains a few of the issues I've been having.
EDIT2: And my yeast is fast bake stuff ? Allinsons purple one. For quicker cooking apparently. So another explanation as to why my cold ferments haven't been going well lmao. Ah well on the positive side..at least I'm cutting out a lot of variables innit.
That's one problem solved! Temperature plays a huge part for sure :) I also use 'rapid' yeast. If you feel that your dough is fermenting too much in the fridge, then reduce the amount of yeast a bit.
Autolyse won't add anything to cold fermented dough. Instead, I would suggest pre-shaping and shaping tightly after cold fermentation to build some tension into the dough so that it can keep its shape. I have stopped kneading altogether btw. Here's a no-knead guide - czcams.com/video/1knjFj923MQ/video.html A couple folds achieve the same result as kneading.
I've owned my 3L Lodge Combo cooker for years and it's definitely a great investment because it will outlive me. If you bake often and if you bake a lot of round loaves, then it's worth considering.
@@ChainBaker alll your points are valid, as the 14% flour I followed your normal no-knead recipe and it came out post-proof EXACTLY like yours - held shape, could slice, etc. it was a bit dense but only because I'd gotten used to proofing for less time with the other as it seemed to proof faster. So the current question line is solely about this 16% stuff. As soon as it's gone (just opened last pack thank god) I'll stop pecking your head and just follow your recipes with normal flour lol.
So my current question is will autolyse help wiith the super high protein ? Kneading definitely helped - when i first did no-knead it was a right state. I tried a few with a bit of kneading (5mins or so) and folded a LOT (20mins x3, 30mins 2x, 1hx2) and that one held its shape the best.
Or should I just bloody go for it. It's all coming out edible . I should just treat it as a science experiment innit. Let's make this easier - is anything I'm suggesting going to be bad ? Let's go with that so I can let you enjoy your sunday lol
Adam Ragusea has left pizza dough in the fridge for up to a week, and i think he said you can freeze it too.
My dough doesn't last this long, though 🙃
My favorite staple is what I call Wochebrot, which cold ferments for a week. It absolutely explodes with flavor and is a real hit with guests. It is Josey Baker’s no-knead recipe from his book, “Josey Baker Bread.” I usually mill spelt or kamut for the poolish. I once proofed it for eight days in the fridge, although that gave it some bitter notes that I didn’t love. I find six days to be the max.
Hi!how to calculate the flour and water if 1kl flour or 1/2kl flour?plss.
You can find videos about all this in the Principles of Baking playlist.
I want to know what you think? I want to try the cold fermentation also keeping everything cold including flour , cold water during mix but twice as much yeast maybe 2%.
Hopefully I can still get 24 hours of cold fermentation and then final proof baking it hoping for even more of an oven Spring? Unfortunately I'm traveling for the next two weeks I'll be a while before I can try it what do you think. Will this create more oven Spring. Of course the development of gluten was necessary early on
There should be sufficient oven spring with just 1% yeast. I'd say try the 1% first and see how it turns out before adjusting anything.
@@ChainBaker I have to try. 😁
I also play with bread machines and they certainly are not all created equal. Some of them mix rest mix short rise mix bulk than knock down then final rise bake. What is interesting the bread is softer coming out of the bread machine than the exact same recipe coming out of a freestanding loaf or bread pan I wish to understood this? And the recipe for the bread machine is about 1% yeast. you have a very broad knowledge maybe you can shed some light?
I have never used a bread maker, so I can't be sure. Maybe one day I will get one for testing purposes.
👍👍👍👍👍
I put my bread dough in the fridge but I forgot to adjust the amount of yeast. Is the loaf screwed or it is still fine?
Should be ok. The difference is not that big anyway.
Haven't figured out what I'm doing wrong but two different recipes came out of the fridge the next day cold and flat. They didn't rise at all and baked densely and poorly. I'll have to stick to same day breads for now.
Which recipes were you trying?
@@ChainBaker I started using a different yeast and now the cold ferment is working great. Thank you
i have a doubt like i do cold ferment but in the final proof so that means it wont enhance the flavour??? are we suppose to do cold ferment in the initial proof please help ??
A long fermentation will develop flavour no matter if it's the bulk or final proof. I just feel that bulk fermentation is the main flavour developing stage because it can be left for longer in most cases.
@@ChainBaker thanks for clearing my doubt 😊
I cold ferment after I fold the pizza 🍕 dough once. Then I just place in the fridge to next day. One time, I had my pizza dough ferment in fridge 5 days. It tasted like sourdough crust.
isn't using preferment giving kinda similar results to cold fermentation but on smaller scale since you ferment only a part of the dough?
It does. Cold bulk for me is more convenient because you don't have to mix a separate preferment.
When do u add the butter or fats in this method?
You can add fat right at the beginning. Especially if you're using the no knead method.