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Comparing 21 Pin Decoder Performance | Bachmann vs LaisDCC
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- čas přidán 13. 08. 2024
- Originally this was meant to be a short video showing the fitting of a Bachmann 21 Pin Decoder (36-557) into a Bachmann 3F locomotive (31-627B). I'd never used 21 pin decoders before so wanted to record my experience. However, after installing the Bachmann decoder, the model didn't run well, much worse than on analogue. I couldn't get smooth slow speed running, there was very little acceleration and the speed was inconsistent.
I tried everything possible to improve the performance with the Bachmann decoder including a full reset and adjusting the configuration variable (CV) settings. I managed to get smoother running, but still very poor slow speed motion.
In the end I gave up with the Bachmann decoder and ordered a LaisDCC version which gave great performance straight out of the pack.
This doesn't necessarily mean that all Bachmann 21 pin decoders are rubbish and that all Lais DCC decoders are amazing, because I've had same issue, but the other way round with my Bachmann Webb Coal Tank and the Next 18 decoder.
What this does show is how bad performance can be affected when a decoder isn't right for a particular model.
Links to decoders below:
LaisDCC - ebay.us/YO5zo3
Bachmann 36-557 - railsofsheffie...
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
02:06 Equipment
02:34 Analogue Performance
03:04 About the Decoder
05:27 Fitting the Bachmann 21 Pin Decoder
09:29 Bachmann Decoder Performance with the Hornby Select
10:24 Bachmann Decoder Performance with DCC++ and JMRI
11:11 Fitting and Testing the LaisDCC 21 Pin Decoder
12:19 Conclusions
Interesting!
With your Hornby Select, does it run the LaisDCC decoders with stay alives or not? I have one and it just ignores the throttle in put...
Stay alive isn't even connected.
Loco will "jerk" forward when the power is switched on, then stop. It'll also twitch when a CV is changed. But will not move at all with throttle input.
I've changed all the CVs I can think if, DC run is turned off as is BeMF.
I think I've only got one loco with a LaisDCC decoder and a stayalive (DCC concepts?). I'll see if I can dig it out and run it on the select. I've had issues before with it, but that was because I hadn't disabled DC running, so every time the stayalive kicked in the thing would shoot off for a few seconds.
I just found this video as I was having exactly the same issue with my Bachmann 3F.. I had fitted a Lokpilot 21 pin and put it away (I mostly play with US HO trains).. hooked it up to JMRI this week and had exactly the same - very stuttery performance, almost pulsing. I finally got the body off, lubricated, checked the quartering, fiddled about for ages with speed tables etc in JMRI. Finally I switched OFF BEMF control and voila.. that seemed to do the trick! running it in now.. could still be quieter but I'm not used to OO steam models so not entirely sure my expectations are correct.. but none of that random speed variation. Thought it might be worth sharing in case anyone else comes across the same.
Hi Loved your video but it left me a bit worried as I have US layout using an NCE Power Cab. I have no problems with this set up. I now want to add another layout but English, particularly A GWR branch line terminus. I live in the UK by the way and have always lived within 2 miles of the main line out of Paddington. On the US layout I usually run with Soundtraxx 2 decoders with no problems at all. CVS 5, 6 and 2 cover a good and acceptable minimum to max speed range and CVS 3 and 4 acceleration and decelerating levels. Do you have sound on your models? Running with DCC is a must to have sound as part of the deal. I would appreciate your views on this. Regards Terry
An interesting comparison, thanks for posting.
I've found in the past that different brands of decoders give different performance in particular locos, Even with CV changes it can be difficult to get smooth running. For example I've had Hattons £10 decoders better than ESU in one loco but not another - even within the same manufacturer / class (e.g. Bachmann Class 47s). It's a question of trial and error getting the perfect match. I keep a few cheapies in my box - Hattons, Hornby and Lais, and often one of them is perfect. If all else fails, A Lenz standard will be good in with most locos.
Thanks 😀 That's good to know I'm not the only person who thinks cheaper is sometimes better.
I now have another bachmann 21 pin loco, so will try it in there shortly and see if it runs well. People all spoke quite highly of the Bachmann decoders.
@@LittleWicketRailway Hi, some 6 or 7 years ago I purchased a good few Bachmann decoders when I first went digital for my Bachmann diesel locos. All those decoders showed manufacture 151 which is ESU. Interestingly, a few of those have since failed but all my cheaper Hornby, Hattons and Gaugemaster ones are still all perfect! I've since replaced quite a few with sound decoders and Hornby TTS at £35 have been fine, smoother than some ESU Loksounds! Plug and play it certainly isn't.! But worth swapping around to get best results, Same with speakers. Will subscribe and follow you. Cheers. Vivian
Enjoyed your test run on 21 pin decoders. I find Lenz is well worth the extra money with ESU a close second. John, St. Catharines, Canada.
Thanks for letting me know. I've not used either of those, but I'll check them out. I'm pretty tight, but I suppose there's no point having a nice model with a rubbish decoder.
i found that LaisDCC decoders run much more smoothly my engines when compared to Bachmann on-board decoders. I've swapped the original on-board decoders with a 8-pins Lais decoder and the locomotive seems a completely different machine.
LaisDCC work really well in some locomotives, but they're rubbish in others. In terms of value I think they're the best on the market. You can now get the 8 pin decoder with a stay alive for around £20 which is pretty impressive.
1/ Can the current Bachmann 36-557 be programmed with an ESU Lokprogrammer USB Unit? 2/ What is the equivalent actual ESU DCC part number? thanks!
Have you tried changing cvs 54 and 55, I had a standard tank on a bachmann decoder that ran horrendously with no load then changed the feedback parameters (cvs 54,55) and it now runs brilliant even on an unlevel, incomplete layout like mine
Thanks for the tip. Do you remember what values you set them to?
Enjoyed the Video. Can you tell me who make the engine test stand you use? Sorry can't help with the decoder problem.
Bob
Thanks Bob 👍 The rolling road is made by Hornby. It's quite expensive compared with some of the others on the market, but I've got no complaints so far.
Everhard junction had the same trouble with a Bachmann 21 pin too The trouble with Bachmann is there Over Priced and Over Here , and I have had trouble with there locos as well in the past. I do my best to avoid them
Great video if the bachmann decoder is the 557 it is not compatible with the select controller as the select is not NMRA compliant and this is what causes the erratic running
NMRA is a basically set of standards that allows any decoder to work with any controller, the select is not configured for this the hornby select is only compatible with hornby decoders
Thanks David. although there seems to be some debate on this subject of Select NMRA compliance. I believe that the Hornby Select and the DCC++ controllers are considered to be NMRA compliant, however, they're not NMRA warranted. Having done a bit more reading it appears that I'm not the only person to find that Bachmann 21 pins decoders can be a bit fussy about their controllers.
@@LittleWicketRailway thanks for the reply but i have to disagree a bit I’m not sure about the DCC++ controller as it is the first time I have heard of this make but the hornby select DCC controller is not compliant, there has been videos and forum threads about this and the conclusion that has been made is the hornby select is not compatible with layer chips but it is compatible with early chips like the bachmann 554 so if you can find one of them second hand that may be a bit better when it comes to performance with a hornby select controller
Hey up
Just wanted to say that is the 36-557 has been known to not like the hornby select due to it not being NRMA compliant
WATCH IC82 VIDEO
The good the bad the ugly
Hi Luke! I think you're right. It seems like the Select and the 36-557 might not get along. I''ve heard mixed messages about the Select being NMRA compliant though and I'm not sure what the trurth in. I think older versions of the Hornby select might not have been NMRA compliant, but the latest firmware might be NMRA compliant. There's also a difference between NMRA compliant and NMRA certified. The Hornby Select isn't certified. Only Hornby will know for sure about the compliance now.
From my experience with N Gauge, I can vouch for Gaugemaster decoders (basically, Digitraxs rebranded) in 6-pin versions. Others, I don't know. I've bought a Rails decoder and some others (Gaugemaster and, due to it being recommanded by the manufacturer, an Hornby one) and I have not tested them IRL by now. If you have some experience on them, I would be interested to have your opinion on them.
By the way, the Hornby DCC controller have not the reputation to be reliable or straight with the DCC standard, that might be the point here. Also, Bachmann decoders are not reputated to be top notch.
I had used different brands of decoders on my former N gauge roster, and I never had issues with specific decoders on specific models. Looks strange to me such issues in OO.
No antistatic precautions?
It's a good point, but I never really taken any antistatic precautions. I probably should earth myself and wear a strap, but touch wood (or should I say radiator) I've handled hundreds of decoders and ICs without issue. Out of curiosity I've just taken a quick look at a Hornby decoder manual and there's no mention of antistatic precautions that I could see.
Did I miss the link to the review?
It should have popped up in the top right corner where I was pointing?
I'll get that fixed this morning, here's the link czcams.com/video/AqnPy2YBaVw/video.html
Hi how much did your whole layout cost you
Hi! That's a really difficult question to answer as I've not really kept track (and I don't like to think about it!). It is quite a bit when you add it up, but I always look for the cheapest way of doing things without cutting corners. This is why I use the DCC++ base station and the sensor hub, cheap alternatives to the commercial systems.
Little Wicket might be getting a rebuild in the near future, so I'm hoping most of this stuff is reusable and will be in service for many years to come. I've tried to break it down into the major areas below, all amounts are approximate and the spend was spread over a long period of time.
Baseboard and frame - £100 (this covers the cost of all the timber, wood treatment, screws, etc. The layout is actually supported by two large metal shelving units. I've not included the cost of tools used to put it together.)
Track - £300 (some of the track was second hand, the turntable was a gift and a lot of it came out of train sets. The most expensive parts are the points and I wouldn't use as many in future, I've learned that a simpler layout causes fewer problems and is more enjoyable)
Wiring - £50 (this is the wiring from the DCC bus, the dropper wires, the accessories power and a few other bits, but doesn't include the DCC++ base station)
Point Motors - £80 (I used solenoid point motors and I really regret it. I find them unreliable and expensive at £4-£5 each. I wish I'd used cheap, reliable servos and would probably have saved at least £60)
Accessory decoders - £200 (These contain capacitor discharge units used to fire the point motors and they're the Hornby branded versions. Another mistake, I wouldn't need these if I'd have known about servos. I could probably have saved £150 here. It hurts just thinking about it. On the bright side I can either reuse them or sell them on second hand as I still have all the boxes)
Sensors - £100 (this is for the infrared sensor network that monitors the location of the trains and allows automation, obviously not essential on all layouts. There's about 40 sensors on the layout, a sensor hub and all the wiring. I didn't know about block occupancy current sensors when I made this, but next time I'd use them and I'm looking at ways of reducing the wiring by using wifi.)
Landscape - £100-200 (this is really hard to estimate, but includes paints, fake grass, the materials to create the canal, the incline, etc. I tried to keep this as cheap as possible by recycling materials I had already such as polystyrene packaging. All the trees are cheap from Ebay. I printed a lot of the retaining walls myself and stuck them to thin plywood)
Buildings - £200 (most of my buildings are from Metcalfe and they're usually around £10-£15 each depending on the size of the model, some of these are gifts as my mum enjoys building them for me)
The Bachmann decoders are made by Zimo, they are miles better than the LaisDCC decoders, you Bachmann must have been faulty, get it replaced and try again
Thanks Jean. I really wish I had another 21 pin loco to try it in to prove for sure it's the decoder. I will contact the shop and see if they'll exchange it.
@@LittleWicketRailway the link did not show up
Thanks for letting me know. I'll get that fixed today. Here's the link that should have popped up czcams.com/video/AqnPy2YBaVw/video.html
If Lais decoders go for around £10.00 why cant Bachmann and Hornby and others i have used Lais decoders for a few years now and i have had no trouble with them but i have with Hornby and Bachmann shame on them gosh I wish lais would do a sound decoder.