The Pigeons of Ancient Rome
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- Ancient Rome may have more pigeons than New York City…
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Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
0:38 Origin story
1:19 Pigeons on Roman farms
2:16 Pet pigeons
3:20 Homing pigeons
3:57 War pigeons
5:13 Krieg Eterna
6:16 Pigeons and Venus
7:53 Feral pigeons
8:59 A bird of many feathers
Hell yeah, i fucking love pigeons
- Mike Tyson
I just hung out with a pigeon yesterday
They’re so misunderstood! My dad used to keep them as a kid in the 50s, and he loves them.
Amen brother💪🐦
Pigeons are amazing
1:18 “Pigeons conquered Italy” - that was quite the coup.
😑
What a wonderfully terrible pun. I would expect nothing less from someone with that user icon.
Boooooo
You, sir, are an incorrigible punster. Well I, for one, shall not incorridge you.
Dad joke alert.
I have 6 adopted/rescued house pigeons. Currently two of them are “yelling” at me wondering why im not petting them. 😅 Pigeons are wonderful y’all and so so many are in need of loving and safe homes ❤
What a fun video! Love the more "mundane" subjects at times!
“Micro history” at its best
Lest we forget the most accomplished of WWI messenger pigeons, Speckled Jim. That delicious, plump-breasted pigeon.
Pigeons are the smart phones of the ancient world.
It's interesting that some of these terms persist in Portuguese to this day. "Pombinhos", or "little pigeons" is often used to describe a recently engaged couple. "Pombinho", or "little pigeon", can be used to describe a cute child or a lovable person/your own love. On a more perverted note "Pombinha", feminine substantive, might be used to describe female genitalia.
And "dove" is simply "Pombo", unpompous pigeon, often called "Pombo Branco" just to distinguish the plumage.
And we also still use the word columbarium (columbário) as the place in cemeteries where the ashes of the deceased are placed after cremation, or their bones are placed after exhumation.
I love the word "pombo", it fits the bird very well
@@mcostafernandoeu fiquei completamente confundido quando visitei Merida e o cemitério romano chama-se Los Columbarios. Pensei mesmo que o cemitério tinha sido reutilizado para a criação de pombos... 😅
I once volunteered for a wildlife rehabilitation center. They had a racing pigeon that they were trying to get back to its original home. That racing pigeon was nothing like a standard pigeon. It was like comparing a greyhound to a golden retriever.
This reminds me of a stanza from a poem satirizing evolution I encountered long ago.
Let pigeons and doves
Select their own loves,
And grant them a million of ages,
Then doubtless you'll find
They've altered their kind,
And changed into prophets and sages.
This sounds creationist
The English distinction between dove and pigeon always seemed funny to me. In my language they're all just called "duif", which is dove in English. We have no word for pigeon.
uhm der is wel een verschil, pigeon is duif en dove is tortelduif. Dit is niet hetzelfde
Same in Spanish, mate: Paloma. You know, Paloma is actually a girl's name, and considered a beautiful one.
In my lanuage pigeons are golubovi and doves grlice :)
In the two extra languages I know dove is kyyhkynen/ güvercin and pigeon pulu/ kumru
@@Pollicina_db Slavic languages sound so beautiful but trying to read them as an English speaker is like stabbing your eyes with a fork.
Trying to figure out what sound "grl" makes is gonna give me a stroke 😂
I actually got to EAT pigeon in the small Umbrian town of Orvieto, where the ancient Etruscans carved columbaria into the cliffsides. My waiter (who didn't speak English) flapped his arms to make sure I understood what it was I was ordering!
Well...how did it taste like? Do you give it a good review?
@@jaimeestrada5527 very gamey, but prepared in a delicious olive sauce.
In the UK, we don't really eat rock pigeons anymore, but wood pigeon is fairly common among people that hunt (for anyone else that wants to try it you can buy a frozen pigeon online for surprisingly cheap- about £3 plus postage). It plucks very easily (usually the worst part about preparing birds), and though it can be dry and chewy if cooked badly, if you keep the fat in and maybe add some more (i.e. butter), it can be delicious. You know how chicken thighs and wings taste a bit different to the breast? If you magnified that difference by 2 or 3 times you'd essentially have pigeon.
Dude..... you sound like you are a simpleton from Podunk. People eat pigeon. You can get it at very upscale restaurants. It will be called Squab.
do you remember the restaurant name?
“Pedigreed pigeons were pampered pets,” I really liked that sentence
In Italian too there is a distinction between Colomba=dove and piccione=pigeon. Interestingly as the Romans did in Italian we still use the word “piccioncini” “little pigeons” to describe a couple in love. As for the taste of pigeons, in many high class restaurants pigeons are always on the menu, apparently the meat is better than chickens.
What's the difference between a "pigeon" and "dove"? The words are used interchangeably in language, the local name for them makes no distinction (like "banana" and "plantain" are the same here too).
Hello toldinstone long time watcher here the thumbnail you used for the video is a painting of a Filipino artist and revolutionary named Juan Luna y Novicio, the paintings name is "Las Damas Romanas", in English " The Roman Maidens/Women".
Very nice video as always.
The thumbnail stuck out to me when I was browsing my sub box because it was a Juan Luna piece, especially one I highlighted in a presentation about his painting Spoliarium for an art history class where I discussed how this specific painting highlighted the academic style during his tenure in Rome
Yet another to show a female en deshabille. One shoulder bare and one nipple obvious jnder the drapery. Our RE teacher at my old Catholic school brought several prints of paintings to show the difference between nakedness that was and wasnt titillating. Though I think she said pornographic. Ie no valid reason. Many Victorian era paintings were little more than soft porn for their time to be honest. Like this one. Hinting at nakedness. I found the lesson to be pointless. I couldnt have cared less if Victorian men found such trite stuff titillating.
I was too busy looking at Michael Angelos David. 😂
@@helenamcginty4920 So true! John Singer Sargent's portrait of Virginie Amélie Avegno is, by today's standards, a lovely painting of a woman in a dress. At the time it was debuted though, she was ostracised and labelled a slut by society. It completely destroyed her life and she ended up becoming a recluse- All because of a bare shoulder and spaghetti strap!
Feral / domestic pigeons (Columba livia domestica) and rock doves (Columba livia) may be the same thing but they are distinct from wood pigeons (Columbus palumbus) which are plentiful in the UK countryside. The later bird has a distinct white patch on its neck, white stripes on its wings and a pink breast. It is also far plumper than the feral pigeon. Wood pigeons are common in Europe. They live in Italy and presumably they lived in Ancient Rome. It seems odd that the rock dove was domesticated whilst the wood pigeon wasn't. Any thoughts on this? Locally, (UK countryside) wood pigeon, with its countryside habitat, is considered good to eat but many people wouldn't eat feral pigeons that often frequent towns and cities. They're considered dirty. Natural Cross-breeding seems very rare. To quote Pigeon watch forum, "I can't believe that any self respecting Woodie would mate with a feral pigeon to produce a "Cross" - surely they can't be that desperate ..."
As the name suggests, wood pigeons prefer to nest in trees. It's much easier to domesticate a bird that perceives human structures to be suitable nesting places. As for hybridisation between the two, it has only been achieved in captivity. Despite looking similar, they are genetically different enough to the point where viable hybrids are a rare occurrence (and a near impossible one in the wild due to the added differences in behaviour, size, nesting habits and preferred habitat).
Aeneas, when he finally set foot in Italy, followed his mother Venus' doves to find the golden branch that opened the gates of the underworld for him to meet his dead father
8:47 'pigs rooted in piles of trash' 😄. Only the true Aussies will chuckle at this.
I remember being surprised back in 1997. Seeing a homeless man with a large net trying to catch a fat nice looking pigeon on 8 th Avenue & 40 street at 6 am , as i was going to work.
I guess that was his breakfast.
Pigeons and so many animals are overlooked but are so intelligent and rewarding
Mike Tyson will be watching this
Right? 😅
If so, MIKE - Kick Paul's arse - PLEASE!!!
First and only petition I ever wrote, circulated, and won, was on the unfair treatment of pigeons for a massive company I used to work for. Always had a soft spot for those birds and am working on having some of my own soon. Also, they tend to mate for life if left to their own devices but there are ways of getting them to breed with others for desired genetics. Its not impossible
pretty lame lil bro
@@SethTheOrigin lol you sound like my nephew, a kid that knows nothing about life 😆
@@nugsymalone1247 Still doesn't make you any less of a loser
Your company had pigeons?
@@Game_Hero wild ones lived in the warehouse.
"...Steadily agglomerating clowders of cats" is the best string of words I've heard in ages.
I love pigeons, and their relatives doves.
Loved the video, would also love to see a video similar about other animals in Rome like cats or dogs, that is if they were kept as pets there, always love the videos.
They were. There is some really sad tombs with engravings on them for cats and dogs. Good video on it: czcams.com/video/Vxlci1d2rOg/video.html&ab_channel=Invicta
It would be interesting. There is a cool dog mosaic at Pompeii with a "Beware the dog" sign in Latin. It'd be interesting to learn more about their relationship with domesticated animals or pets.
I believe there was a video about dog tombstones.
Can you tell us more about Roman winter clothing, please? Socks in Vindolanda, ok, heated floors(do they work, worst job)... Roman winter hat style? Barbarian pants, our hero will always answer the questions we most want to know without ever knowing.
If only Mike (Tyson) could see this! His love for pigeons surpasses that of anything else in this world - even boxing!
The most important citizens of the roman empire
believe it or not, when it came to voting they still only counted as one tribe
This is so interesting!! I never knew the pigeon was domesticated even before the chicken, how cool! I wish we could do something about them in cities today than just putting spikes on window sills.
The park behind the local city hall was full of pigeons. Then one day a little falcon moved into town. The pigeons quickly vanished.
@@kevinbyrne4538My city pays some falconers to patrol between 4 and 7 A.M.
Not a lot of pigeons around here either.
this is so awesome, I love pigeons!! I feel a strong connection to fellow pigeon lovers of the past, as I know we would have gotten along about our love for the birds, even if we couldn't understand each other.
In Japanese the word hato means both dove end pigeon. They are considered the same animal. It's in fact English that is strange in calling the same animal different names based off of its colour alone
I am pretty sure this it the Anglo-Saxon / Norman difference dove being Germanic and pigeon being the Norman word.
Now, if that was the *only* unusual thing about English!
_Shikata ga nai..._
There are distinctions between dove and pigeon in North America. They belong to the same order though.
Pigeon and dove is the same in Hebrew: Yonah. Ie the name Jonah (like jonah and the "whale".) Like a dove jonah needed to return.
I did not expect to be so stunned by a video about pigeons of all things. I'm a little conflicted though, as I now respect them as never before and desperately want to eat one.
Closet vegan.
That's a lot of fascinating answers to questions I would otherwise never have even had
I've never had a reaction to a title go so quickly from "why is this something people have looked into" to "I would very much like to know everything about this"
Excellent video. As a recovering pigeon fancier, it's usually pronounced dove-cot or doo-cot rather than dove-coat
I heard "coat" used in New York, but not sure if it is common.
Can't wait to learn about this!!!
I just ordered your book, I'm legitimately looking forward to reading it!
Thank you for your work Garrett
Delighted to hear it!
@@rensnestworks4183do you know how to read
Some pigeon people are unsettlingly enthusiastic.
Great video! I am currently writing my Master's thesis on Pigeons/Doves in Pompeii! It is encouraging to see that so many other people find this topic interesting. Sometimes my advisor looks at me like I've gone bird crazy. If anyone is interested in reading more about pigeons (or birds more generally in the ancient world) I can definitely recommend some sources!
Pigeons are so interesting to me, they have had such a fall from grace
Personally, I think it would be perfectly okay to have pigeons back as a normal food source. It would be ethically much better to have a pigeon that could roam freely than a chicken that was kept in a dark room cramped in with tens of thousands of other chickens.
You can't eat animals that roam free and aren't controlled. Chickens are easier to breed because they can be isolated in case of zoonosis. You can breed chickens in an open environment. Like, imagine people flying and contracting aviary flu. How do you stop that?
Plus, pigeons are bred in many countries, in France I've eaten it a couple of times.
@@antoniousai1989 Can still eat free pigeons. But I agree it has issues and definitely isn't as easy as factory chicken. That's why I wouldn't expect to find it in a supermarket.
Aviary flu is also a major issue in chicken factories. Millions of birds have been killed for it. Putting thousands of the same birds together makes it easier for the disease to evolve new variants. Free pigeons may actually be safer, idk?
@antoniousai1989 about eating animals that roam free. People hunt and eat wild deer, wild rabbits, wild boar. And another interesting one: geese that are on airports and get shot rather than fly into plane engines. People eat those as well.
More difficult to make sure it's all good and safe to eat, but it is done. Better than factory meat too imo
@@michielvoetberg4634 The problem is that free pigeons fly and it's impossible to contain an epidemic hotspot. Chickens on a farm get suppressed and incinerated and this does stop the disease locally.
We have a similar problem with pigs in my region, Sardinia. Pigs are bred semi-free and they have contact with wild boars, who endemically carry the swine fever and pass it to the domesticated pigs, which periodically get culled and there's an export ban on the meat because of this. Pigs that aren't allowed to roam free but like inside enclosed grazing fields do not get the disease and are exempted from the export ban.
Current population levels and demand causes industrial chicken farms. Replacing chicken meat with pigeon would just create industrial pigeon farms, to meet demand.
Incredibly interesting. One of my favorite episodes in some time
I wonder how many languages distinguish between "doves" and "pigeons"--seems like very few beside English do so. In my people's language (Chahta), Pachi is so to speak the 'main' word for dove/pigeon, but it specifically refers to the now extinct Passenger Pigeon. Any dove/pigeon that was not in a massive flock or that stayed year-round in a particular area (eg, Mourning & Ring-necked Doves) is Pachi Yoshoba or "lost pigeon."
in chinese, both are called "鴿子"
same is in german, you just call them all "Taube"
But in english language you dont differentiate in other things for example "Hirsch" and "Reh" is in english all just deer.
Even so that the one species is related to a cow and the other to a goat.
This is very interesting!
So a Google search provides this info: A Reh is a roe deer. A Hirsch can be one of several deer species, in Germany usually a red deer, or a european fallow deer.
I wonder how many animals are scientifically separated but called one term in all the different languages. Apparently in Russian they have different words for light blue vs dark blue and in English we don't
@@rachel_Cochran Yeah stuff like this is very intresting, often things are called by their first appearance and people started putting them in categories by that.
We have a tree in Germany called "Buche", there are two versions of it "Rotbuche" and "Hainbuche", even so they both look a bit similar, they arent even slightly related, but both share the same name.
Or the Spider Daddy Long Legs in english, is at least actually 3 different species one arachnid and two real spiders.
And then there is also the fact how much more a culture tends to be facing a certain thing, the more words they will come up with and they get more specific with it.
I´m thinking of Eskimos having dozen of diffrent names for snow for example.
@@mam0lechinookclan607 I think that plays a big role in some of it--as does languages being influenced by other languages' words for things (in English, we have at least two words for every common food animal depending on if it's in the field, or on the table. In the field it's from Anglish, on the table it's from Norman French.)
The multiple names for snow in arctic languages is more of a misunderstanding about how those languages work--they're mostly just compound words that share the same root. In languages like English or French that don't do long compound words, it looks like there's innumerable words for 'snow' because there's no direct translation that would be one or even two words--you'd need a long phrase to translate it all out.
This is kinda a common problem with translating Indigenous Turtle Islander words in to Indo-European languages--most are verb-based, not noun-based languages so everything is organized differently. Quite a lot of things considered "nouns" in Western thought are verbs to us--in my people's language, we don't have a word for "colour" as a category; and all of our colour words are verbs, not nouns!
Never would have thought about this, but this was wildly fascinating and informative!
Excellent and informative! Thank you!
toldinstone as always answering the questions I never thought to ask but wish I had
Did they have other birds?
In Norwegian theres only one word for dove/pigeon and that is Due (Dove)
This was a great upload. The noble pigeon.
I saw this video get posted and really didn’t think much of it, but after watching- WOW! I had no idea! This was absolutely fascinating
In Dutch, you can also say duifje 'little pigeon' to your lover! We see them as pests though.
I rescued a beautiful white pigeon that got lost in a wind storm here in Warsaw. She had a white band in her leg, so I know she was kept. We put an add on Facebook, but no one replied. Thankfully, the Warsaw zoo takes in birds at their bird sanctuary.
@7:32 Really kind of adds another layer of meaning to Kevin giving, the unhoused pigeon lady, a dove in Home Alone 2.
This makes me want to build a colubarium on my farm to generate fertilizer
I love Catullus' poems about his lover's pet sparrow and like other viewers I'd love videos about other roman animals kept as pets, thank you (new subscriber!)
In the winter I feed them every day In the summer just about ones a week because they need to get busy looking for food in the grass. When I use to go to Venice I fed them in the Piazza San Marco, those were a wonderful times! Unfortunately, the new mayor of the city prohibited to feed them or shops sell the pigeons food 😞
What about starlings and house sparrows?
Very instructive. Thank you.
Great relaxing content for the day after Thanksgiving, thank you.
They were huge, man
Wonderful writing and narration. Ode to pigeon.
Pigeons = rats with wings. Dove = beautiful bird and fancy delicacy!
I love how your pics of your book covers have chipped dust jackets. Vintage is always a good thing.
Love that you did this ❤
What sources did you use? Asking because this was very interesting and I would like to learn more
This is information i need to know
Man I love this channel.
great video as usual
WOW, Talk about the Mighty Pigeon!! Who would have thought...
we are truly living in the pigeon dark ages!!
This was an excellent survey of pigeons in Rome, thanks, I enjoyed it. Cheers.
my great grandparents lived in brooklyn during the depression and would catch pigeons on their windowsill to eat
This was so good, entertaining, wonderful to know. Much better than the squawking sea gull.
Pigeons are docile, plump, *and delicious;*
We forget so much of our own history. Maybe you've heard tge term squab before...maybe not. In earlier times in the US squab meant pigeon meat. People in large cities where they congregated and the rural poor ate pigeon tge way we eat chicken today. Pigeons were a plentiful, easily obtained dinner. Suggest it today and most will scoff but...I've had pigeon meat...it compares well with chicken and turkey. Delicious stuff.
In Morocco there's a dessert called Bastilla, it's basically a sugar flake pie with pidgeon meat layers. I had it a few times. It's okay, kinda gamey. Not my cup of tea.
Still common in high end restaurants
Great info... ❤❤
In Argentina, old Italian immigrants used to say they would eat "polenta con pacarito" - they couldn't pronounce "pajarito" in Spanish, which means "birdie" (LOL). They used to hunt pigeons and made them into a meal. In my honest opinion, this could be very dangerous nowadays: the environment where pigeons feed themselves is highly polluted. You could get nearly poisoned if you ate their meat!
They've managed to poison everything poor people eat or drink
Imagine eating a fentanyl addicted pigeon from the city slums
In Spanish language we still use the word "columbario" for the cemetery buildings with small niches to deposit the amphora with ashes of the dead.
The pigeons stole the thumbnail
This is a fun video but id love to see a list of the sources you used for further reading
I always thought of pigeons as rats with wings.
Well they kind of are. Many people, especially old ones, feed them during the day. The food that doesn't get eaten? Well the rats come at night and eat it, fueling the likelihood of rats increasing.
Never turn down a well prepared pigeon.
Always turn down a well prepared pigeon.
You deserve so many views.
Imagine, pigeons were the chicken before pigeons
Banger.
I didn’t realize pigeons had been domesticated for such a long time.
i would love to see someone rebuild a pigeon hut for a pigeon aviary, i love history
Eaten them many times in China. They are a very tasty, rich, low fat dark meat and very tender. Raised for eating, not the feral version.
The image at 9:05 is hilarious.
One of the most beautiful works of art I have experienced is The Mosiac of the Doves in the Capitoline Museum. Stood there transfixed for a couple of hours. Ordinary pigeons indeed😺😺🤙🤙
:) thank you. very interesting
I love pigeons and if someone is mean or cruel to them (often due to ignorance) I would not want them as friends or as a partner. I have found that nasty intolerant bullies dislike pigeons and other wildlife too, e.g. grey squirrels, foxes, crows - they think they own the planet, the concept of living together and sharing the planet with other species simply doesn't enter their narrow-minded selfish brain, they think they are superior to other species. Pigeons are the most decorated animals in the UK because they braved storms, bullets and bombs to deliver messages in world wars. I have read they can distinguish between similar photographs and recognise themselves in a mirror - something that cats and dogs cannot do. They have helped rescue people in danger and are kind animals liked by kind people.
Ask Mike Tyson about his pigeons he fuckin loves em
Lol, Felix and Oscar (on the original tv show The Odd Couple) had lots of fun with pidgeons, (the Pidgeon Sisters, that is, lol!)
Cool thanks mate
it's funny to think that throughout all of history, no matter the era, someone was crapped upon by a pigeon
7:45 - more relevant to church art is John 1, 31-34 :
I really wish I was friends with Mike Tyson right now, as a fan of history and pigeons I’m sure he’d love this
@miketyson
"pichón" is (or was 50 years ago) still an endearment term in Spanish...
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