Could This Have Been the Real Weapon of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei???
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
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In this video we hit the controversial topic of what were the real weapons of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. In short, we don’t know exactly, but for sure they were not the Crescent Blade Guan Dao and Snake Tongue Spear we associate them with because those two weapons did not exist until centuries later in the Song dynasty. So we can look at what weapons were available in the Han Dynasty, and what they were most likely to use based on their military rank, and commonly fought on horseback. This leads us to speculate that they used polearm weapons like the Sha, Pi, or Qiang. I personally think they would have used a Sha as their main polearm, but that is only my opinion, so what do you think?
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Very well done. I have no problem with the duality of researching and building a picture of the highest probability reality of the Three Kingdoms period on the one hand while simultaneously preserving the legends and myths of the novel. It isn't even a solid fact that Luo Guanzhong wrote the thing. All reputable sources simply say it was attributed to him. The novel is a work of historical "faction" that is in some ways similar to the Horatio Hornblower and Richard Sharpe series. In those, real history is a backdrop for fictional characters and adjustments are made as necessary for good stories. Romance of the Three Kingdoms, in my opinion, is more fact-based and uses people and events with historical provenance for the skeleton of the story. The novel is really more about using the heroes (and anti-heroes like Cao Cao and Lu Bu) to teach lessons about culture and humanity. Greed and pride, loyalty and treachery, selflessness and selfishness, heroism and cowardice are all shown in the framework of a crumbling and divided empire with all the inherent paranoia and fear-driven evil against the noble and honorable intents of the heroes who are trying to preserve the Han dynasty. The novel was supposedly published right at the end of the Yuan dynasty of the Mongols and the beginning of the Ming dynasty that restored Han rule. What better timing for a story about the greatness of Han character as portrayed by the larger than life protagonists?
The real or most probable weapons of the heroes absolutely have their place in history and martial arts. So do the ones we have from the novel. They represent the heart of the intent of the story and removing them devalues the intent of the novel to uplift the Han by using larger than life images of the heroes. The weapons are all part of that. Plus, who doesn't like the Guan Dao?
Well said!!!
I think it's likely that Zhang Fei's serpent spear was not the name of his spear but his spear style when fighting. He may have used a spear style so well it looked as flexible as a snake and could strike as fast as one as well.
Or he could have used it in the Snake Gong Fu fashion.
Great video. I will add that the Han Dynasty did have a glaive-like weapons that may have resembled the Guan Dao/Green Dragon Crescent Blade. This is seen in the metal remains of a glaive-like weapon (that almost looks like an Egyptian Khopesh) and depictions of some other glaive-like weapons in some tomb carvings. So it's possible that Guan Yu could've used a weapon that may not have resembled the traditional Guan Dao, but still sort of resembled a glaive.
I've spoken to Dr. Shao-Yun Yang of Denison University about those tomb carvings. His opinion is that they are likely forgeries, due to lacking details that should be present in artwork like that, and also having modern stylistic details.
Additionally he translated a biography of Chen An of the fall of the Western Jin dynasty. He had two weapons that fit the depiction of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. He used a 4 meter serpentine spear, and 1.7 metre longsword. Quoting the relevant portion: "The one zhang and eight chi serpentine spear is easily recognisable, while the seven chi (1.68m) long sword was misinterpreted as a glaive (chang dao 长刀 or yanyue dao 偃月刀) by Yuan and Ming writers, because the value of seven chi had increased to at least 2.15m by their time. This was made more confusing by the popular use of the term da dao 大刀 to refer to the yanyue dao by Ming times."
@@MisterKisk Interesting. Does the professor have any written works about this so I can learn more? Does he think these are ancient forgeries or modern forgeries?
@@Intranetusa He doesn't have any publications on them, because there's no point for him to do so. They're not making any kind of headlines in actual scholarship.
It was just from my correspondence with him in showing the pictures and us discussing them.
His opinion is they're modern forgeries.
What an informative episode. Great editing and pacing as well. I didn’t know anything covered in this episode so it was awesome to learn.
There definitely comes a point as time goes on being into this kinda stuff, where it's like, stage 1: "omg! Guan Dao! Named after Guan Yu the legend!" Stage 2: "Everything I thought was based on a bunch of ancient lore and propaganda. Boo-hoo..." And finally Stage 3: Acknowledging the lore, the historical reality, and learning to appreciate them both while knowing the difference.
But man, when you first dive in, you see historical texts and depictions that look something like what you practice and it can be so exciting! Just learn not to be too disappointed when it turns out it was a page out of an old romance novel. Haha!
Great video, Sifu!
Bonjour Sifu 🙏🏼
merci pour cette superbe vidéo
passionnante 🙏🏼
Bon week-end
Merci Sifu Noël!!!
guanyu's dao can be a single-edged sha with narrow straight blade like han dao, I don't think a double-edged polearm will be called a dao in legands, now zhangfei's snake spear i suspect might be a sha with tip broke off and he's like oh thats more badass and kept it that way
Great video!!! 👍👍🙏🙏🙏 I’m training Shaolin staff with a 2m 16kg yoga bar. Eventually I’ll have a 2.5m kuan dao made… aiming for 20-25kg….. 💪💪🙏🙏🙏
Ooh ooh! I know some of the blades! I asked you to review them a long time ago.
This is such an awesome episode!
THANKS!!! I'm glad you liked it!!!
Guan Yu is actually supposed to have made up a pair of Dadao for himself.
These were his main go tos.
Yes, curved blades have existed in Chinese weaponry for some time.
Straight blades, regardless of how they are termed, are employed in a totally different manner to that of a single-edges sabre type.
Amazing knowledge (and analysis/theories). Don't know how you know so much about ancient Chinese stuff but two thumbs up!
Thank you! I've upped my study on Chinese history, and have been reading the classics. I am lucky that there are more resources being produced in English these days, and I also have a couple of personal friends that have been very helpful too!
Awesome bit of context! I love the balancing of traditional cultural depictions and their place against archeological and historical evidence and acknowledging the need and place for both.
Also, it's damn cool to see someone actually doing cutting with Chinese weapons! It certainly is not like the Chinese martial arts that I have been around.
Loving this series.
loved the video!! thanks for sharing it with us
when you grew up playing dynasty warriors as a kid in elementary. early development of han dynasty history love grew deep within
Well Lu Bu, Guan Yu, Zhang Gei is a General, these type of officer doesnt necesary use what their soldiers use, just like what Patton carry
Not to mention as a General, swordsmith use to made weapon that are "custom made" or "special order"
Their legend make those weapon famous and have it own name
You may have overlooked the possibility of them using customized weapons. Something built on the mold of experiences and personal preference. They had the money and connections.
That is a very good point, it is definitely possible they had their own custom weapons. However, I doubt that even still with those connections and resources, they would've come up with something like we see them as they are more popularly portrayed. There are no images, or existing artifacts that are curvy like the snake tongue spear, nor fat bladed glaives like the Green Dragon Saber in existence from that time period. Most likely, any customization would be from the base model sabers and spears of the time, whether it be fancier fittings, or slight modifications of handle/blade length.
Very interesting indeed. I just checked wiki also, weapon like naginata which is bit similar like a Ta Dao, appeared from historic references only during the 10th or 11th century. Makes me really wondering what Guan Yu really used as his long blade weapon.
I would to know what short saber looks like.
There are actually two versions of sabers from the Han Dynasty, both have the same design, just different lengths. I have a video about the long saber czcams.com/video/QT3gpYFi8p4/video.htmlsi=jUqg-39QyAvZQkyu and a video using it for a Choy Li Fut saber form czcams.com/video/OFDzBcl7NAo/video.htmlsi=ziyC4RxsdlCu81Of and I have a review of the shorter sword as well czcams.com/video/drc4nAUJMcA/video.htmlsi=Q0F9qs1ipeY7ZDmH
Well, since similar weapons already existed in that time then they could always have just had them customized since they are generals after all. Maybe Guan Yu wanted a curved blade for better slashing and Zhang Fei wanted to do more damage to a body with a zigzag blade.
Given guan yu's size and the weight of his guan dao and back then most of these people were farmers and have a cleaving arm of a wreckcing ball...you cant block a single strike from his guan dao. He'll just cleave it through.
The curved Dao is used differently - more like the Japanese naginata.
Wait it ISN'T called the frost fair blade
HAHAHAHA!
I think technically what you should say is it is not known that either design of these weapons had been made by this time due to the fact that most historical artifacts do not actually exist most things were re-purposed and even weapons to famous warriors have been lost like to my knowledge no one knows where the sort of Joan of arc is and no one knows where the sort of Genghis Khan is these are famous weapons wielded by insanely famous people but you can’t get them and you can’t see them simply because they were lost the time which is What happens to most objects
Nice!
MA CHAO SPEAR 😁😁😁
Ma Chao has some very interesting history, I will be making a video about him and his spear/tactics soon!
It exist in Han dynasty era, but it special made by blacksmith, not standart weapon. Green dragon crescent blade and snake spear are real in Han era, not myth.
Unfortunately, since neither original of the Green Dragon Crescent Blade nor the Snake Spear survived to this day, there were no sculptures, or artwork, and nothing similar was made until hundreds of years later, it is very doubtful.
@@SifuKuttel nope, Chinese very good at recording historical record and folk story from ancient time and already had advance metallurgy from thousands of years ago. If it said crescent blade and snake spear, it was exactly like that. The reason why it special weapon, it beacause it thickness and weight more than standart weapon, so it can have that special shape.
@@User-kjxklyntrw I’m still waiting for something even close to either weapon to be unearthed to be convinced otherwise. I think it would be awesome if they did exist and were wielded by the real Yunchang and Yide, but it is very difficult when myths are woven into cultural history. Either way, it wasn’t the weapon that made either man legendary generals and warriors, they didn’t need a custom blacksmith for that 💪💪💪
🤠👍🏿
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That means not that they used customized tools.
Especially china is known for people with all kind of strange weapons.
I would add to MY han Dao a bit a guard for stabbing ...
And a bit heavier.
And I'm martial artist ...
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