MINDHUNTER Explained | Dumb It Down
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- čas přidán 16. 11. 2017
- Here's how MINDHUNTER tricks you.
Let me know your thoughts down below!
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In this video I:
-explain the right way to "dumb it down" so you can reach an audience
-breakdown what makes Netflix' new series MINDHUNTER so fantastic.
MINDHUNTER:
In the late 1970s two FBI agents expand criminal science by delving into the psychology of murder and getting uneasily close to all-too-real monsters.
Creator: Joe Penhall, David Fincher, Charlize Theron
Stars: Jonathan Groff, Holt McCallany, Anna Torv
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SOURCES
► Footage: Mindhunter | Trolls 2 | The Social Network | The Punisher | BvS | Zodiac | Genesis and Catastrophe
► Interviews: BUILD | Charlie Rose
► Images: David Fincher, Charlize Theron, Robert Ressler, John E. Douglas, Edmund Kemper | Criminal Minds | Genesis and Catastrophe
► Fanart: Aurelio Lorenzo. fanartTV, M4TtHew828, IAmAnneme
► Music: Steve Jobs OST - Daniel Pemberton | Dumb It Down - Lupe Fiasco - Krátké a kreslené filmy
The guy who played Ed Kemper deserves every award out there. In fact, all the criminals were portrayed really well.
The actor deserves all of the acting awards imo.
I watched the interviews side by side with the Actor Kemper vs. Real Kemper. It's amazing! Most of the shows dialogue matches the real thing. (It's on YT)
The actor was incredible. Articulation, enunciation, body movements. Insanely awesome. He needs an award for his fantastic portrayal of the killer.
That dude scared the hell out of me in the season finale.
100% agree. I studied up quite a bit on Kemper back in high school and earlier while in college. I was blown away by how closely the actor resembled Kemper, not just in looks, but his mannerism, his voice, everything. So many lines are verbatim from actual interviews, or near to it. The actor and writers CLEARLY did their homework and I found myself rather shaken at how well it was done. All of the actors portraying the serial killers did a fantastic job, but every single scene with Kemper really stood out. His first interview with Holden in episode 2 is the most memorable scene for me. I have watched it so many times and earlier today wrote on it for a class assignment.
Given how good of the job the people working on his show have done, I sincerely fucking hope they focus on Ted Bundy. He was also incredibly influential and gave a lot of insight, even helping aid in catching at least one serial killer. I'm not sure it could be next season since it will be focusing on the Atlanta Murders from 79-81. He had only been recently apprehended at that point (a few years) and I believe he didn't take on the bulk of his interviews until the mid 80s. Bundy is similar to Kemper in that they were both very articulate, intelligent, and charming. It would chill me to the bone to see a good representation of him on screen. Bundy, more than any other, really kept me up at night in my teens. I learned about him pretty young from my mom and I was forced to watch a documentary on him, like she had been when she was a girl by her mother. Scared the shit out of me, but so glad she did. Gotta be really careful about who to trust. No matter how charming someone might be, they can still hurt you.
AGREED! Especially the actor portraying Kemper. Award-winning in my opinion. 😊
Nah..only thing true to kemper was the word-for-word dialogue. Tone, body language, and personal enthusiasms completely fell by the wayside. Was a shit job with a big budget.
That principal was up to some shit, I don't care what anyone says.
He was told to stop, but he didn't. That's a problem.
He could've bribed the kids with candy to behave without physically touching them, he refused to stop touching kids, what if it was an adult? Would it seem just as innocent then?
I agree, but I think the point was that if you get the wrong guy, the consequences can be dire. Also the burden of proof, etc.
There wasn't any need to prove he continued to touch children after many people told him to stop because he admitted in continuing his practice.
anoy imous okay, but was it illegal? Did Holden use his scientific method to prove he went further? Could they arrest him? Did the principal get his due process in a court?
The actor who plays Kemper is mesmerizing!
Literally the guy kept me up last night when I finished it
I agree...the guy actually scared me...I felt real fear watching him.
He was just nominated
Kemper was mesmriseing
He was terrifying in the ending
This show never bored me, I think we’re just so used to mainstream entertainment that is so easy to understand and watch, that when we watch a show that has some level of intellect and requires us to think, most people don’t even bother and stop with the excuse of it being “boring”, tbh I really liked it and the classic literature references were on point 👌🏼
Agreed!
I liked some of it too. But I think its very fair to say the show wandered around way too much, and lost any kind of pacing. I felt it needed to cut a lot of the crap, and focus on its subject matter more.
Careful not to delve too deep into "you need to be smart to enjoy this..." Don't ruin mind hunter like the fans of Rick and Morty ruined that show.
Glad someone else feels the same way. Most people my age and modern audiences seem to require fast-paced storylines with lots of action. I thought Mindhunter was a breath of fresh air. Everything I could have ever wanted in a show, focusing on discourse, psychological analysis, and character development. Mindhunter has become one of my favorite series and I desperately want to own if whenever it is eventually released. I've already watched it a couple of times and keep hooking people onto it.
Disillusioned Daughter you said what i was thinking
What I found unsettling about the Principal wasn't the Brudos connection. It was that when parents directly asked him to stop tickling *their* child he refused. If the parents found it disturbing, and the parents hadn't been watching the series so they couldn't have known there was meant to be a Brudos connection, that should stand to suggest that it *was* disturbing.
Your dead right, innocent or not the moment the parents said stop he bloody should of stopped!
@@mikhailv67tv ya anytime an adult man or woman is touching children and then asked to stop and doesnt, not a good look regardless of intention or circumstance.
His method had flaws, all he had to do was compromise. Make sure another adult was present. Stop giving out pennies and stop arguing with people concerned.
That was a tough case, it had results, the school and students were doing well. But ignoring the concerns was stupid. It was his own fault in the end.
I think what people don’t realize about the whole principal situation was that Holden didn’t think he was a pedophile, he believed that the principal was showing similar patterns and behavior that a serial killer has or will shown. They have a “fascination” with a particular thing and in this case it was the children’s feet. It was more of a question if the principal COULD become a serial killer rather than be a pedophile. Either way it’s disturbing.
@@Njbear7453 Well said. I agree.
The one thing I did like about Debbie's character though was she taught Holden a lot. Like in an earlier episode, she told Holden about the kind of physical stance he could maintain to tell other people he is interested in what they are saying. And in later episodes, Holden makes a lot of those gestures during the interrogation scenes. Though, they could have showed some developent for her character.
well since you spoke about her I have a question
did she cheat or not ?
coz I didnt get it, he just went back to her without an explnation
maybe they'll give her character more development in season 2... one can only hope.
Samm Q, she probably did man. Red flags all over her. He gives her a ride home, she specifically picked him as a partner for a project and they were up close and personal in the dark doesn't matter if its school stuff those are all red flags man. If Holden came a lil later that night you know what's bound to happen man. That's just how it goes sometimes. This is one damn good show tho that's for sure.
holens hot af, i would never cheat on him!!!!!
The comments by Darren R and Izzy G are radically out of proportion. Nothing she says or does is abusive. She doesn't like that guy, Patrick, she only uses him to retain Holden's curiosity. Remember when she breaks up with him and says at the beginning he was so curious? What upsets her is that she doesn't feel as interesting to him as she was when they first met. What I find ironic is that a fan of a show about analysing people would reduce Debbie to "a cold bitch abusing her boyfriend." It's kind of an MRA narrative.
*“They’re eating her! And then they’re gonna eat me!”*
LOL
lol I'm sorry but please tell me what that shot is from
what movie is that
Willy Skallz Troll 2 I believe
Best dialogue delivery 10/10 - IGN
Foot tickling your students is NOT innocent! It may not necessarily be sexual but it is a serious boundary crossing. I would be livid if my sons principle did something like that. Not cool
Tickling is not the problem, the problem is to have defied the objection by the parents.
As a former dominatrix, I assure you that tickling IS sexual. Not appropriate to do to someone without consent.
Holden was in the right with giving the principal a warning. Touching kids even after the parents of said kid have asked you to stop is disgusting.
A. It was the 70s/80s that was being portrayed.
B. It was deliberately meant to be shown as a grey area sort of thing. In that what was trying to be shown is that if there were just the act of tickling, accompanied with nothing else, done innocently on behalf of the doer, is that still bad? It was one of those things that feels 90 percent wrong. But 10 percent of you is still wondering, am i being cynical? Is my mind so full of this stuff that I have lost all innocence in my perspective?
@@quelorepario exactly
He could've stopped and ended the whole thing but no, he kept escalating it until it blew up in his face.
But, like, it’s Mom’s fault.
Watch We Need To Talk About Kevin. It's not always so simple.
Gale Hutchinson That's an incredible film. However, Tilda's character is very different from Ed Kemper's mother.
since we're taking this seriously (i'm pretty sure the op only meant to make a humorous jibe)...
at which point is it no longer the mother's fault and the adult son's inability to change his own behaviour?
profiling is never meant to absolve the POI's guilt or agency, but merely to identify suspects for investigation. where mindhunter is concerned, the issue gets murkier, because their suspects are serial killers who are very likely to kill again... so there is that angle of "crime prevention".
to frame it from the serial killer's perspective, they may have an urge to kill, but does that mitigate their culpability in subsequent murders by any degree at all? a person may urgently need to pee, but they will still do whatever they can to rush to a toilet, and even if that is not possible, normal people would still not simply pee in their pants and enjoy it.
tl;dr: your psychological baggage does not reduce your guilt if you ultimately chose to commit murder. you may blame your mom, but you still committed the crime out of your own free will. the fact that you have a history of abuse goes some way to explaining (and predicting) your outcome, but it does not absolve you of the crime, and it certainly does not turn your abuser into an accomplice. your mom may have failed you, but that's not the crime.
it always is.
Mom`s spaghetti
You are missing the hugely important role of the girlfriend character. Holden is told that serial killers often experience 2 life-changing events before they become homicidal: humiliation at your place of work, and rejection by a lover. Both events occur to Holden in the final episode. Without the girlfriend character, we would not have the major parallels between the experience of the serial killers and of Holden himself. She is important to the plot in more ways than just to humanize Holden.
Dude, I just finished the series, and I couldn't help but think the exact same thing.
Feanor pretty much yes. That’s how I read the story and the character and it’s certainly something that happens a lot in real life.
I'm just glad she's gone. She was horrible to him
@@VictoriaAshley23 Yea they didnt give her character many redeeming qualities did they.
honestly, tho, it’s really hard for ‘young people of today’ (omg did i really just say that?) to understand the huge cultural shift she represents of the time period, a woman who thinks of herself first and foremost, is strong and independent, has personal goals, and doesn’t just flatter her partner.
Innocent principal? I think we were watching different shows.
I recommend watching the interviews.
Or the last episode at the grocery store where the main character shows remorse.
Yeah I don’t see him as innocent, he was touching peoples kids in an inappropriate context without their permission and refused to stop when asked, pretty cut and dry that he deserved to lose his job. Holden feels remorse because he likely ruined the mans life but he was probably right.
henry did you ever consider that it was showing the initial stage of a new form of and then an inexact science, was not foolproof, and was responsible for taking and twisting of certain peoples perceptions, ending up demonising and crucifying the actions an innocent man?
Firey Flower I understand the idea behind that, and I do think it's a point the show is trying to make throughout the season, however my original comments just came from my opinion on this specific scenario. Where if I put myself in their shoes, I would probably want him to be fired. I'm not discounting the idea you're presenting, nor am i saying that he is necessarily guilty. It may have been exactly what the show was going for with that situation. I just know how i might feel or react in that situation.
The principal is innocent of child molestation, but I agree that he deserved to lose his job. He had been told by parents to stop touching their children's feet and paying them, yet the principal thought he was above reprimand. Someone like that should not be in charge of a school, especially since parents are supposed to be able to decide who can touch their kids when the kids are too young to give consent.
I think Debbie's character was mostly really fascinating to have around purely because she reflected his studies but through a more philosophical level, to which he would learn from. My only gripe with that relationship was when she basically cheated on him in that social experiment and they got back together for some reason, without explaining why, only to break up an episode or two after. However, I loved how he read the whole break up situation even though earlier in the season, he stated he could only really read the killers whom he studies. The line between sociopathic serial killers and the average person blurs because the human mind is not black and white. Can't say Debbie ever got on my nerves or felt useless. Like you said, she was a character to humanise Holden while having someone to learn and converse with when not on the job.
dtanobo I totally agree with you on Debbie!
Agreed
I liked the potential her character had- I feel like the writers fumbled with her a lot and didn’t know how to write her with holden
Very well done. As a former Detective, I learned 90% of my interview techniques from Douglas and Resslers experiences.
Their is a strong correlation between empathy with your suspects etc.. and what you get out of your talks. The biggest differences between myself & these truly awesome pioneer's is my suspects hadn't been convicted yet. The best results were always precursed with mutual respect. I never judged them during interviews. That wasn't my job. My job was to get them to open up so I could find truth...period.
do you think the school principle was a pedophile?
You fucking pigs refuse to get off your high horse morality doesn't exist
@@bdog8451 facts
@Lumina_11 objective is base opinion on facts, algoritme, science, reality (as we know it, nowadays although) subjective is your opinion based on emotion, pre-assumptions, triggers, religion etc.
Thanks for the pro tips, ill never trust one of you guys again
You forgot to mention how insanely accurate the looks of the actors playing the serial killers are!!it’s freaking insane
The actors behind Manson and Berkowitz was wearing prosthetics. But yeah, the acting is still great.
I totally agree...
That tickling principal wasnt creepy because if the narrative of the episode.....by itself its just creepy.
I agree!! it was creepy and wrong all on its own!
The slow burn and eventual payoff in MINDHUNTER was done brilliantly. This is what the 2nd season of TRUE DETECTIVE should have been.
Lemon Wedge maybe a good ending wasn't needed for once.
TGJ. You don't think this was a good ending for a season?
Ah, I totally missed that the foot fetish serial killer was in the same episode as the school principal. Right under my nose that was.
pretty sure it wasn't (a bit late lol)
Right!
First time watching those episodes with the foot tickling principal... I sensed that the writers of the show were testing the audience. Putting us in the same perspective of Holden. Because several episodes deep and all what we have learned, we get a chance to put our knowledge and instincts to the test.
The subject is:
Middled aged educational professional
Uses tickling to “help” kids
Tickling on it’s own isn’t deemed harmful... but is odd for repetitiveness when a stranger does it.
The kids don’t appear to mind.
Are we being paranoid?
Maybe....?
Parents have requested he stop. And he refused.
And then he brings up a strong belief placing him in a position higher than a parent to a child... thats a big no no.
It’s reported he uses terminology like “covenant” or cult... he’s got a problem. And that problem is a ritual he refuses to break or be ashamed of.
Damn that was good writing! I love it when they challenge the audience and not treat us like we aren’t thinking reasoning adults.
PumpkinEskobarr I like your interpretation. I also think it’s to show that the mission isn’t really to prevent crime when no crime has actually occurred. Even if profiling becomes the new technique to catch serial killers (and it does), it’s still to stop them from killing again once they determine that there is a serial killer on the loose. Law enforcement can’t do pre-crime.
I thought Holden felt LESS normal and human as his relationship with Debbie progressed. I don't think she exists only to humanize him - she is an important person who helps him learn more about the way emotions work, and Holden ends up hurting her and being very dispassionate about it. She reflects his inadequacies and lack of understanding and compassion. She reflects what he is missing. She shows how hurtful and obsessive Holden can be.
You cannot fake empathy. I read excerpts from Ressler's book and the amount of agents that broke down either mentally or physically after interviews was astonishing.
This comes from over-identifying with both the victims and perpetrators. It's what in psychotherapy is called transference - the patients transfers/projects onto the therapists aspect of their unconscious.
Now, identifications come from projections that leach onto unconscious aspects of ourselves that are similar to what is projected and that is why WE CAN EMPATHISE.
We may say we can fake empathy consciously but unconsciously we are doing it involuntarily. That is the reason why Ford had his breakdown in the end after Kemper hugged him.
The ending of season 1 is similar to what happened to Ressler in real life. He went alone in the room with Kemper and when he finished the interview he pressed the buzzer to get out but it took the guard 20 mins to respond. Kemper told Ressler that he could unscrew his head and put it on the table to greet the guards. Ressler panicked but kept his composure by delaying Kemper through talking (negotiation tactic) until the guards eventually showed up.
Kemper then said: You know I was joking, right?
Ressler learned from this, he realised that he identified with Kemper (Stockholm syndrome) and from then on he made it as a rule never to be alone in an interview with a killer.
Good. The only thing I disagree with though is when you say the principal's tickling is 'innocent' I don't think that is an acceptable behavior. Do you?
II agree, it isn't appropriate. It's from an actual case that John Douglass talks about in Mindhunter, the book.
I should buy that book!
I thought it was creepy as well. If he was a normal person, he would have recognized why the parents and teachers didn't like the contact he had with the kids and backed off when initially confronted by them. Instead he gets extremely defensive and continues to do what he wants, regardless of the parents feelings. That is not normal behaviour.
I always think of this thing I read (totally blanking on the book rn). The author talks about how say if your car is broken down and someone offers you a ride, and you say no, a normal person will accept your answer, understand you're uncomfortable, and move on. An abuser or someone with otherwise bad intentions will press the issue, try to justify their interest and get you to change your mind... The author worded it way better, but that's the gist of it.
Right. And that thing you mention also makes sense yeah, and we women are especially susceptible to cave to a lil pressure to 'not be rude'.
sadly true.
Also just remembered the book, the Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker
Great video :) though I kinda disagree about your view of Debby's role. I think she did a great job at giving us a benchmark for just how much Holden had changed. When they first met, her independence and sarcasm threw him for a loop, but he still respected her and tried to change his more male-centric worldview when confronted with her opinions. As he starts riding the high of solving cases and getting to know the serial killer mentality, however, he starts getting increasingly egocentric, treating Debby less like a person and increasingly pushing her away. In a sense, his "pretending" to sympathize with serial killers warped his ego to become just as inflated as theirs, albeit expressed in non-violent ways.
Zodiac's unconventional and non commercial approach perfectly fits the story it's telling. It's one of my 10 favorite films. Mindhunter is great though
Adriano Vazquez controversial opinion: Memories of Murder is more compelling and enthralling than Zodiac....
When holden is doing the mock hostage situation in his class and the guy does a "black" voice, I couldnt stop laughing 😂
That part was funny
which episode is this?
The first one.
I liked that the show addressed the racism in the FBI at the time. Keep in mind, this was literally just a few years after J. Edgar Hoover's death and the FBI's COINTELPRO actions were exposed.
WildWestSamurai I was wondering why the show kept painting the fbi as a hated organization. what happened?
YESSS! I loved this series! And you explained so well what it felt like watching it! I was worried I got myself into an advanced psychology course but the story was pretty fairly told for a wide but patient and attentive audience. And that's why we need more of these.
I wonder if the school principle is not totally innocent in his practice but the whole episode is more about how Holden is getting a bit too confident and biased against behaviors he deems deviant. He's usually right to trust his gut feeling but when he isn't, it clearly backfires. His mistake in this case is jumping to conclusions too early without enough evidence.
LDS Drive I feel like he did kinda jump to a conclusion, but at the same time i wouldnt want that guy doing that to my kid.
I agree. It felt like we were getting an insight into Holden's perception getting skewed because he was having to psych out the serial killers and therefore was starting to think more like them in regards to how extreme the depravity can get ... so he didn't have clarity about the principal and his behaviour within its own context
What really set me off about principal was how enraged when confronted and adamant about continuing the touching despite numerous parents asking to stop...
Those parents were calm compared to what I would be if I had to argue with someone about touching my child.
No kidding! I mean, this is not a choice. Don't touch my kid!! Do it again and you'll be getting a lawyer. I do not care what your intentions are, don't do it!
i actually thought holdens relationship with debbie was following along the lines of their ideas of what makes a killer kill. every scene with them becomes more tense and holden exhibits the same emotions/attitude towards debbie as the attitudes their subjects have of women. Of course much more internalized. This video argues that their relationship makes Holden "human", i argue the opposite. Their relationship disintegrates from the beginning little by little, and i think thats the point. I really get the sense that if it weren't for his badge, Holden would be able to kill and slip through the cracks. let me know what you think, if you share this perspective or have a different one. you could argue this series is "dumbed down" but i rather think of it just being finchers own touch. my favorite movies are by him and everyone one of them is open to so many interpretations. i love the dialogue in his films but also the dialogue they create in the audience
When he told her to shut up, it reminded me of past episodes when some of the serial killers said what bothered them the most was that the victims won't shut up. I want to rewatch it now xD
I just posted something at the top of this video, please have a look! ^^ I think you'll follow what I mean.
I agree. Holden is not neurotypical. He’s too comfortable with these killers. I feel as though his character will only become more similar to the criminals as time goes by.
I never thought about it in that way. Definitely agree with you - thank you for pointing it out!
Alex Wandler
Yes! This is something I noticed too. After he interviewed some of the killer his interactions with Debbie would later almost reflect the way the killers described their interactions with people.
The show is amazing. If you like psychology and getting behind criminal intent then you are invested in the dialogue and .. learning how to read people, essentially... I just read a horrible story about a dog that was found with 6 pellet shots in it's head. Some small town in the middle of nowhere.. the show makes you realize that there are some reply disturbed people... right in your own back yard.. if you know how to look.
Mindhunters, has a very similar premise to Seven and Hannibal the TV show. Will Grahams has to share his empathetic feelings too solve murders, entering the mind of Hannibal turns Will into a very disturbed soul, another great scary show.
I suppose since David Fincher made Seven, he was naturally always drawn to these types of premises. True Detective Season 1 was pretty great too
This show was great! I am a psych student and was thrilled to see accurate portrayals. It was like shop talk. My friend who is not a psych student also loved and understood it as well which is why this is so great. It reaches a broad audience. I would love to see more of these shows with a psychological aspect/twist to them on Netflix. And keeper, he was amazing. The other commenter was right, he deserved an award or several for that performance!!! Outstanding!!! The best I’ve ever seen!!!
I hate the sex scenes in Mindhunter. They seemed excessive and forced on us as an audience after a while.
Sex scenes we're a bit too forward I agree. Didn't need to be there almost at all. Just highlight the deterioration of Holden's psyche and sex drive and move on. I don't need to see it all.
Lmao that's pretty much all Netflix shows.
They served a point. The series is set around so much violence involving sex and sex crimes. The scenes showing people enjoying great consensual sex in relationships was to offset that.
Exactly. Like every damn show these days doesn’t need damn sex scenes.
I always skip them because its awkward because Jonathan Groff is gay and it just seems, Weird and awkward, while he is a good actor its just meh
One of my favorite scenes from season 1 was Rob's wife (principal's wife) coming to argue with Holden. Such a great scene because it makes you really face the repercussions of this 'predictive measures' form of policing. And the actor who played his wife was phenominal.
random thought: i'm kind of amazed at how many people think Holden is secretly a sociopath. I'm not seeing it. He's a socially awkward guy with a lot of ideas who now suddenly has seen success with his methods, only to get yelled at because of his choice of phrasing when talking to the killers. I'm also not surprised by his cockiness because he's clearly never been praised before considering his original job. Of course he's defensive when he's told he needs to stop doing something that clearly works. I'm also not surprised his relationship with his girlfriend deteriorated because whether he wanted to believe it or not, his interactions with the killers was getting to him. And as he gained more confidence, he got tired of Debbie's condescending attitude. Not to mention he shows plenty of normal human emotions that clearly aren't being faked because he shows them when he's not even around other people. His lack of emotion later on was clearly as a result of what he was doing during interrogations which was to pretend to be calm and indifferent in everything. Thus his reaction during his break up with Debbie
He seems more like a covert type of narcissist - like he believes he understands/knows something others don't and the world/people around him don't get his ideas.
So it makes more sense his ego rises so quickly when he in fact does have some more insight and even gets to solve some cases on the side that reinforces his belief.
I agree with your comment but the part about Debbie. She wasn't being condescending to him, just pointing out the changes in his reasoning as he spent more time interviewing these serial killers. The killer who smashed the girl's head, he didn't in fact have any real evidence when he had the dude come in for an interrogation. Him talking deplorably about how he was attracted to the girl too and he even used the line Ed Kemper said about using young p**** before it became mom brought he guy's guard down. Which was why he cracked. Especially with the details of how they could get the girl's blood from his hair, or inside his ears or nose. Which was BS but it worked because the guy was kinda dumb.
What him and Tench were doing was ridiculously close to coersion and feeding him answers in the beginning which was why they turned the tape off in that time and Holden just managed to squeeze the confession out of the guy which then confirmed his doubts.
He wouldn't have gotten squat if the guy was someone like Bundy or even Brudos who just denied everything.
So he in fact was pinning the crime on a man without really being sure (thankfully who really happened to be the killer and a not too sharp one) with circumstantial evidence which Debbie pointed out in their shopping trip when he snapped at her and she snapped back. Because it was true.
Whenever she pointed out something unethical or something weird he was doing, he clamped down and that slowly eroded their relationship over the last 4-5 ish episodes.
And not too mention, he had the hots for Dr. Carr during his relationship with Debbie. So tbh, they both are near equal offenders on the interest in other people outside the relationship.
I thought he was pretty obviously illustrated as a sociopath. Doesn't make him evil, sociopaths aren't necessarily bad people. The show constantly,almost every episodes throws his lack of empathy in your face.
Pre Law I thought more like someone with Asperger’s.
kia k I agree with Bill Tench on this one. He didn’t need to loosen the guy up by pretending he liked young girls too. He was ultimately trying to play on his shame (remember he put that yellow jacket over her face). So all he really needed was the costume and the yellow jacket with the rock underneath to bring out his shame. He probably would have gotten the same result with normal interrogation and then picking up the yellow jacket to reveal the rock.
Well, he does seem to get better along with serial killers than with real people...and aren't serial killers nothing more than narcissists who use their crimes to get people to pay attention to them.
About the part about the feet, I posed the question about it being inappropriate to someone who hadn't watched the episode and they thought it was inappropriate so maybe it wasn't the subconscious change our thoughts.
Mind hunter is filmed in my area, I almost an extra on it. That was a pretty epic moment
The scene at the end was beautiful... Kemper peeped from the beginning that dude was trying literally whatever to understand the psyche of people like him... he had all the leverage. He played to all of his vanity at the end and made him understand that he will never truly understand! That was powerful when he hugged him lol
I hate that this brilliant show never received a much deserved third season! Give us more! David Fincher is a mad genius and this show was cast perfectly! To see Jonathan Groff go from King George in Hamilton to Holden in Mindhunter is just amazing.
There must be another season, amazing show so well done and super talented actors.
Tickling children for one's own satisfaction is sadistic, especially when they plead for you to stop. It happened to me as a child. It didn't go any further but I never trusted that man again.
In this show, it gets dicey because no student ever complained. I feel bad for the principal at last when we see him wandering around a liquor store, disheveled and not quite lucid.
I completely disagree with how you assume the audience portrays foot tickling as something disgusting just because its in the same episode with brudos. Its fucked up, because the parents and the school board are not happy with it, and the guy ignores it and abuses his power. And its genuinely weird for on old guy to tickle childrens feet, who are under his care.
cameron britton who plays ed kemper is so talented snd deserves more recognition and awards for his incredible acting
I found the cat thing (where Wendy keeps a tuna can near the window and suddenly she dissappeared) pretty weird, I am sure they'll show us in next season.
I took it as there’s someone in her building that killed it. Since most of these killers admit to torturing and killing small animals as youngsters, and the show is trying to draw attention that there’s more of these kind of ppl out there than you think.
@@nathaliealeman3568 I don’t know why but I always had a weird feeling that when she would walk up the stairs and the camera would still be on the can that a hand would reach out and grab the can
@@nathaliealeman3568 also you’re last statement is also backed up by the fact that Nancy literally says, “stuff like that doesn’t happen around here” when she literally has someone that was apart of a murder inside her house and also the reveal of how many killers Keller thinks are active around America
Kemper*
I know this is a bit late, but damn this was one of those shows with amazing presentation and limitless potential. It had the tools to be a staple and I think about how it hasn’t been given more often. It’s a shame.
Brilliant!! Brilliant show, cast.. The writing, the content.. It's just a perfect show.. Can't wait for season 2.
When I was watching it I also thought that Holden reminded me of Eisenberg in Social Network.
This is one of the best tv shows ever and it’s a shame that we didn’t get the complete series and finish off the BTK aspect of the show .
Subscribed!! Time and time again you recommend the most watchable stuff. I just watched the first episode of Mindhunter, and I'm already hooked. Thanks for the suggestion.
Zodiac is a masterpiece. The interrogation scene with the "zodiac" killer in that movie inspire this amazing tv show for sure.
My problem with Mindhunter wasn't the character of Debbie, but the actor who played her. Her performance felt like what would happen if a 2x4 decided to give acting a shot.
Brian McMullen yeah the character wasn’t written poorly, just needed better casting.
Worst part of the show
she has flat boobies like ew
Her acting was fine, the character just sucked.
Hated her. She was the worst. And such a bitch to him.
I remember hearing about the people this show is based on. The serial killer Edmund Kemper loved like 20 minutes away from me as a child and I remember how crazy that whole case was. I love this kind of stuff and this show so damn good!
He didn't tho...
What was he loving?
@@drtyslzy young dead women apparently.
Incredible video once again :)
Love this show!
ATZ SHOW, you blew my mind with Genesis and Catastrophe!! 👏🏼 👏🏼 Love it...thank you!!!
I LOOOOVE this show, but i cant watch it often bc my fear of being murdered gets heightened by it so much so that it gives me nightmares.
I love Zodiac and I love this show.
This is a really good analysis of the show,great job!
This is such a good video. You brought up amazing points.
In my opinion, the change in Holden's character was really abrupt after he solved the murder of the little band girl by getting the suspect to confess. He became a a jerk after that and really didn't seem like the same guy. The way he dismissed Debbie and then runs to EDMUND KEMPER of all people because of heartbreak seemed really out of character
leftenantthunder Kemper wrote him down as his doctor, so Holden had to go see him out of legal and medical obligation.
Taylor Grimsdottir-Jackson but could tell that he was emotionally broken and Kemper even comments on it during their conversation
The ending when Holden has a break down and is running is so funny to me.
Sweet Gaming Funny? I found it one of the powerful scenes of the whole show.
leftenantthunder Actually it isn't that abrupt. You pretty much witness his transformation throughout the the episodes and it starts with Kemper. His true character was kinda hidden and Kemper got it out we can say. So it didn't felt like it was out of his character.
Loved the Show and plowed through it in two days by Binge Watching which I hardly ever do. Highly recommend
Same here. Awesome show 👍🏻
Wow. This explanation was great! Well done.
Thank you for ending with the Lupe track, fits perfectly with your video
The first episode was a bit slow. But after that, the show is perfect. Fascinating. I absolutely loved it. It's so engaging, even in the absence of action and conflict. It's a paradigm shifter.
Biblical Criticism you were able to watch a show without action or conflict...
999999999999999999999999999iq
Great show
This was my favourite show last year and my favourite ‘serial killer’ based thing. It was very factual but not boring and didn’t treat the audience as if they’re dumb but gave us clues and hints that we can add up ourselves. That’s why I appreciate David Finchers work.
Literally everything I could have ever wanted in a show. Discourse and psychological analysis are some of my favorite things.
I love John Douglas and for a while wanted to go into Criminal Profiling after reading his books (no, not because of Criminal Minds haha). For a while, I was studying Criminology in school, but ultimately decided against it and moved onto something else. Profiling is a tremendously tough job and emotionally, psychologically, and physically taxing. It changes you and has served to be detrimental to most profiler's health at some point in their lives. I definitely respect the people in this field and others like it. It's a tough job to delve into the darkest reaches of humanity day after day. Just studying it like I did for months at a time would eventually lead me into depressions and I would have to take a step back. And that's just from what was publicly out there. You can't even get your hands on a lot of stuff that Douglas and others have poured over. Glad to see a more accurate representation of criminal profiling. Sure, a lot is dramatized, but overall it's pretty damn good and close to the real thing.
Kudos to everybody on board with the show. They did a freaking fantastic job. Can't believe how amazing of a job the actor who portrayed Kemper did. Every scene with him gripped me. I hope he gets some recognition for it!
Wait... Two guys, one is brilliant but can't interact with people, especially women, and a bit more normal guy who's still a bit too prone to antagonising his peers, relegated to the basement office because the rest of the system don't know or care about their work even though it's intricately essential to all of theirs future, not even getting their voices heard until a woman with people skills is recruited to oversee the studies and helps them communicate with the higher ups and there's even the oddball fourth character who never really interacts with the core group but works down there nonetheless...
...
Did... Did Fincher borrow the setup from ... The IT Crowd?!
jmalmsten ha! That good my man! Now I see the resemblance
Ho-ly-shieeett 🤯
Omg this is amazing!! Great insight dude
It dropped in September and mind hunter dropped in October. A month is impossible. One didn't copy the other but used a nitch many shows utilise. I wouldn't credit "it" for anything either.
Scott T
Myihihi..... No not Stephen Kings It (2017), not even that Pierce Brosnan film called I.T. (2016).
I'm talking about a British sit com that aired on Channel 4 between 2006 and 2013. The I.T. Crowd. :)
This show had me glued. That interview with Richard Speck was amazing.
This book is just so raw and almost joyous when the detective interrogate and on the occasions when they predict the serial killers next step in the various cases-it’s written in such a way that the reader feels like they now understand how to apply the serial killer profiles and even feel like they would have come to the same conclusion. Sort of allows the reader to inhabit a Watson character to detectives Sherlock intelligence regarding motives that lead to the crimes
Love your insights on Mindhunter and the part about empathy. Good job.
Very nice review of a wonderful show. - I agree that the weak link is the relationship between Holden and his girlfriend Debbie, but not for the reason you do. Debbie had an intellectual chip on her shoulder and was constantly critical. I don't remember her ever enjoying his company. He, on the other hand, displayed a puppy dog eagerness to talk an share. Frankly, I thought he should have dumped her much sooner in the series, because she was all about changing him from an odd-ball, into her image of a good boyfriend. So whereas you saw the relationship as an attempt to "humanize" Holden and make him sympathetic to the audience (and the filmmakers probably did think that's what they were doing), I saw the relationship as a threat to his essential self.
Sean Ledden
Debbie liked Holden at first- that’s why they dated. They were both different and commented on their differences. For example, Debbie called him a Mormon, and he called her a hippie. It was equal. In the end, he became more controlling of her, and more arrogant and narcissistic. The point of their relationship was to parallel the difficulties serial killers have with women, and holdens worsening psyche which peaked in the end when he broke up with her (mutually I’d say) and had a panic attack after kemper
Lupe Fiasco's- Dumb it Down for the outro?
lupe the GOAT
Where is he?
He didn't dumb it down enough.
Great video, as always!
I hope the rest of your content is as good as this because this was amazing. Subscribblidibbled!
A cool new show by David Fincher on Netflix? I'm there thanks for the heads up
We’re the smaller cases in the series also true? Or just the killers they interviewed?
One of the best shows in recent years. Just amazing and thought provoking. And I agree with people saying that the guy who played Ed Kemper needs an award - he gives one hell of a performance. It's so rare for a character to be genuinely scary these days.
This might be one of the best breakdowns of a show or movie on youtube. You nailed it. And I agree about the girlfriend character. I learned a lot from watching this show and others like it, taking it to my own writing. Keep up the good work!
Best show on Netflix
I could literally listen to your voice for hours it's insane
Nikki Carrasco gayyyyyy
Such a good analysis, thank you!
I love the song choice at the end, LUPE!!!!
Happy Anderson did a great job as Kemper. Next I wanna see the Edgar Ramirez scenes...
This show fucked my mind up.
I bloody love Zodiac. It's one of my favourite movies ever, and I rewatch it often. The whole case is fascinating.
LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE THE SHOW! best criminal show ever!
Mindhunter, Breaking Bad, The Crown are the best 3 shows on Netflix right now.
Except in the crown they don't go into how evil or bad they really are in that family. Pure fiction. A feeble attempt at tricking the public in America to buy in to liking the royal family or at least the queen. ..who in real life is so deplorable and such a criminal she should be lined up and shot for all her crimes against humanity.
When your so early no one has finished the video yet.
Thank you for this.. Hope you do more videos about MINDHUNTER
Terrific video, the show is incredible as well!
I think the character of Holden is actually a sociopath and that’s why he can connect with the killers so well.
KingCraigers I can totally see that!
Well he definitely has a strange relationship with women, and it definitely shows in the interviews.
I don't know why anyone would think he's NOT one. You can clearly see the killers bring it out more and more in him.
I personally believe he's just an intelligent artist. A lot of artists have their work and then have their actual life - both lives differ a lot. Plus, humans are really complicated.
It's an obvious theory about him being a sociopath with the way he acts, that's why I'm grasping at straws to see a different angle because I would want to see how they handle it in a less obvious way.
You are all idiots... This character is based on a real person that is for sure not a sociopath.
Did you just unironically use the term, 'queen'?
I LOVE THIS SHOW! It’s so underrated
I liked the way this show displays what really separates regular people from those who murder, and what gives us a real sense of humanity - the notion of empathy.
It isn't Holden's ability to "sympathize" with those criminals who serially raped, tortured and killed, it was his desire to understand their motivations, connect with the commonalities between them, and use those past histories and significant personality traits to sketch out the first ever modern serial killer profile. It isn't that those men who murdered in cold blood were "inhuman" or "monsters" or "devils" as the police officers and prison wardens tended to label them. They are people with a shared human experience, but they lack the crucial trait that Holden has, which is empathy.
Ed Kemper can discuss the atrocious murder of his own mother in gruesome detail, delivered with the monotone inflection of a train announcer. It's how Rissell can justify killing his first victim for vengeance over his ex-girlfriend cheating on him. It's why Speck was able to exhibit such compassion and care for the songbird he gently held in his hands, only to throw it directly into the fan blades when confronted. They aren't able to empathize with their victims, which means they feel no remorse, and they instead correlate their emotional response to the act of killing with desire, eroticism, compulsion, anything that doesn't allow them to feel the pain and fear they inflict on others.
And it's Holden's humanity at stake throughout this series. He starts out as a wide-eyed, somewhat naive investigator and instructor with a desire to understand people better. In the first scene of the show, you can see him trying to talk down a perpetrator who's taken hostages, clearly agitated by the lights and sounds of the police cars and reporters' cameras flashing. Holden attempts to reach out to him because he can empathize with somebody who feels scared and alone. His empathy allows him to become familiar with the killers he interviews, understanding their pasts to better understand their motives for killing, and it works to such an effect that he builds a close rapport with Kemper, sending letters to each other.
But, his ego starts to become a problem, and he begins to lose that empathy, failing to see the individual anymore, and instead, using precedent and manipulation to fake empathy and evoke a response from those he interviews. It causes him to start distancing himself from his relationships, with his partner, with his girlfriend, and even with himself. And it's then that the viewer can see just how empathy can be lost, thereby hindering that person's humanity.
Holden loses himself toward the end of the series, his girlfriend leaves him, his partner Tench is frustrated and disgusted by his recent interrogation efforts, the FBI is questioning the validity of their profiling work after he broke so many norms and regulations and is threatening to call it all off, and in a shocking move, he goes to see Kemper in hospital after he made an attempt to hurt himself. In that final confrontation, it's then that Holden is made distinctly aware of that lack of empathy. How he isn't the one with the ability to manipulate, and the ability to ignore their humanity to attain their own means. How foolish it was to actually put trust in somebody who lacks those assets, and how dangerous somebody without those traits can potentially be.
Fincher is producer for Mindhunter, right?
He is to Mindhunter what was Spielberg to Back to the future, he didn't create the story or directed it.
Joe Penhall - is a writer/creator/partially director.
Why People keep referring to Fincher as if he created this whole thing by himself?
I understand it's good to have a big name attached to the production from the marketing standpoint, but still.
Am I missing something here?
Nope, not missing anything. Expect, Fincher did direct four episodes. (First two & last two).
You answered your own question. Because Fincher is Fincher, that's why the show is known as David Fincher's Mindhunter.
Just like Burton is called the creator of a lot of movies in which he was just the productor, or like Miyazaki he's the "mind" behind studio Ghibli when he's not the only director and half of his films are based on books and manga.
Fincher and Charlize Theron originally had this idea a few years ago,(originally was to be an HBO show) so while he didn’t write the characters and what not the core of the show is very much his. Also the tone is very Fincher esque, and he did direct 4 of the episodes.
Charlize Theron and David Fincher were the ones who assembled the scripts and the writers, and laid out their vision for the project. Fincher also directed several of the episodes.
Film making is always collaborative, but the ones who set the show into motion and crafted it to the end result you see on screen are usually the ones who are credited as the creators.
TheCrazypsicho yes
Debbie lowkey annoyed me
Me too.
What an analysis. One thing it showed me is that I falsely considered upfront and simple to by synonymous, however you gave me something to think about.
One of the best shows I have seen in a long time. From the casting, acting, writing and photography, all of it was very well done. And I agree with everyone else, the guy playing Ed is fantastic. He actually made him seem more creepy than he is in real life. I hope he gets more work because of this show. It doesn't hurt that I love Anna Torv either lol.
If you find this show difficult to understand you might be a Rick & Morty fan.
Jim Bertido you're so edgy
Who else reckons that Holden is gonna be a serial killer? He has two main stressers now. His work and his girlfriend who left him. He'll either kill women or feds.
He is neither a psychopath nor a sociopath. I don't think he'll kill anyone.
It's so wild the perception of this kind of stuff when these guys were operating. The idea that a murderer might be psychologically unhinged rather than having a concrete motive is not outlandish to me at all it is the world I live in.
Thanks for video well done. Love this show can’t wait for 2nd season.