Don't make this $10,000 mistake, swales are not always the answer!
Vložit
- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- Don't make this $10,000 mistake, swales are not always the answer! Please do not make this same mistake that I made 5 years ago. By putting in swales, it cut my farm up into a nightmare of ditches that made it impossible to graze. The swales did not heal over in grass either, still had bare soil 5 years later. Erosion was rampant with every large rain.
In India when they make swales, they don't build long ones. They make short ones in a line following the contour. In between each swale is a tractor-width "bridge" of land that hasn't been dug. So instead of digging long swales and building bridges over them, they just build basically a series of short swales in a dotted-line pattern. They've done it in hundreds of communities that were overgrazed and had no topsoil and thus could not initially support grass. After digging the swales, they planted trees on them. It works great.
I need to look into this. Thank you
@@joshua511 Sure thing, partner. You can find it by searching for Andrew Millison's series on India's Water Revolution. I'm from Utah and have found it absolutely inspiring. Indians are re-greening deserts that get 13" of rainfall per year, and converting them into wetlands where, at the bottom of a multi-swaled grade, they can actually plant rice. It's freaking amazing.
@@ritcheymtAndrew’s stuff is amazing!
@@ritcheymt I wouldn´t call 13 inches of rainfall a desert. that is what in my country call dry mediterranean xD (it actually the real name tho, but, to be mediterranean, you have to have a dry season of at least 9 month at normal years). In my country we call a desert stuff that has less than 3 inches of rainfall at best (and when that happens, everyone dies xD).
For ages it's the practice to furrow plough the land before the rainy (monsoon ) season. These not only break the flow of water but due to ploughing also loosen the soil so it sponges the water. Unlike swales, the furrows ensure the water is spread across the entire field.
I think this is a clear case of implementation without research or proper understanding. It’s very apparent that these swales failed because they weren’t designed or implemented correctly.
Yes. There is no information about real swales in this video. This is the most common kind of disillusionment that you get if someone tries to apply a "cure-all" without understanding the first thing about design.
I agree. They were built backwards. Literally backwards.
Kudos to you for showing 'failures' as well as successes. It takes a 'big' man to admit mistakes.
I love what you are doing Greg, but you made yer swales wrong to begin with, and for the wrong reason. If you were trying to capture water and direct it to a pond (like if you were already having issues filling a pond), then yeah, swales would be a way to accomplish that. But on gentle hills like you are on there, the swales should not be ditches, think of a switchback road going up the side of a hill, it gently slopes back towards the hillside to the grade that slowly flows the water down and directs it where you want (versus the water running straight down the hill). But the kicker is, don't add swales unless you need them to solve a water problem. And if yer topsoil is shallow, you gotta scrape it off, form all the swales, them reapply the topsoil (or it will never heal), and that can be an expensive solution unless you already own a dozer and have time to burn. But there is a time and place to use them and I don't recommend them unless they are the most logical solution to a real water problem. Geoff Lawton is a genius in water control (including swales and ponds) and he has some good books on the subject. (lots of his info can also be found online for free... In case anyone is searching for answers to water control issues). Anyway... You are awesome Greg and I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and common sense with the world. Thank you for being you!!!
" But on gentle hills like you are on there, the swales should not be ditches," bollocks.
Thank you so much for sharing this. To many “experts” are to prideful to share mistakes they made with others which dooms other to making the same mistakes. We appreciate all you are doing to share what you have learned
Yes, thanks for sharing!
Thank you, as always, for sharing the success and the mistakes. SO MANY people (who don't farm) will tell you SO MANY things 'you ought to do,' very few people (who actually farm) will tell you what to avoid.
The whole point of swales is to hydrate the land and prevent desertification. Grass does little to reduce evaporation, whereas a tree canopy is excellent. The compost provided by the leaves and dense understory will regenerate the topsoil layer on your clay through decomposition. Swales have their place for permaculture and food forests, but managed, intensive farming or grazing wouldn't be it.
Yes, but it takes a really, really long time for trees to generate a lot of top soil. I base that on living in a hickory-oak forest. Yes, there are leaves and branches and sometimes entire fallen trees. And they do decompose into topsoil. But not very much. A fallen tree will decompose and sumac or buckbrush or baby trees will pop up alongside the trunk. But if you scrape the soil under the trees, it isn't very deep. You can create much more regeneration faster through the use of plants and grazing animals.
Swales and keyline systems were developed in Australia in the 1950's and were specifically used for large scale farming.
What if cost or availability of trees is not an option? Or they inhibit intended use. It's not like they don't work without trees. Grass builds soil. .
Swales are a tree growing system and not recommended in pasture if they’re not going to be planted out!
If you've only got one swale (as shown) then it should be up the top of the slope, not down the bottom.
Mistake #1 - up the top of the slope, not down the bottom.
Mistake #2 - plant them out.
Best thing would be to learn about swales from somebody else!
My farm has swales on it terracing the whole land. All of them are small enough that you can drive any equipment or cars across them. They have a gradual slope that allows seepage but still will send water downstream in high flow events. I don’t really know what hayfields would be like without ours.
no need to slow water down if it doesnt run .
as long as water sinks in to the ground your good
Amen!
Greg, your integrity is class A #1! The world needs a whole lot more operators like you. Be blessed.
There's a lot of bad info around, about swales. I think the most important thing to know about swales is that they're a TREE GROWING SYSTEM. Yes, there can be grazing going on in PARTS of the system, but the primary purpose of the system is to grow trees. (presumably, high value trees, if one goes to all the trouble of building swales). So they don't do much if the primary purpose is grazing. In fact, as Greg points out, they get in the way and mess things up.
Their main benefit is that they catch rain, and infiltrate it deep into the soil, until, in about seven years, the system has as much water in it as it can hold. After that, they keep the system full of as much water as it needs, but not more. This is something only trees need, or indeed only trees can handle. That's because water must never stand still in a soil for long. Moving water isn't just a water delivery system, it's also an Oxygen delivery system. If it doesn't move, it results in anaerobic conditions. Too much still water kills fertility. Luckily, the trees can keep the water moving, because, when they have access to it, they can evaporate far more of it than grasses can, and they can go down far deeper to find that water. Water from the swale is stored in the soil (in a massive volume of soil, distributed far in all directions, but especially down-slope), and then it immediately starts moving up the tree roots, and out the leaves back into the atmosphere, at a steady pace. It never stands still.
Furthermore, the fertility swales create is NOT UNIFORM. Most of the water that's caught by the swale is distributed in the area down-slope from the swale. So conditions become uneven. If you create uneven conditions in your system, you better have a damn good reason for it. Because unevenness has an inherent inconvenience (which can become very costly), in any system. In the tree growing system, there is such a damn good reason:
Swales create extra fertility down-slope from where the swale is located. Up-slope fertility is not increased, and at the bottom of the swale fertility suffers, especially in the first few years (because, when building the swale, top-soil is removed from the bottom of a swale, obviously, as well as because, in most climates, there are significant periods of time with standing water in the swale). So the most valuable trees are planted into the fertile zone, down-slope from the swale (along with pioneer trees, initially, to set the conditions for the high value trees).
Above the swale, there can be fast growing, nitrogen fixing trees (for fixing nitrogen, mulch, and for climate control: a tree line acting as a wind break up-hill from fruit trees can prevent damage from spring frost), as well as pasture for a SECONDARY grazing operation. Then, the swale is able to fulfill its secondary purpose: the nutrients (from the manure that's in and above the swale, where the animals graze) are broken down and, once turned into simple, plant available compounds, they are dissolved in water...this fertilized water then infiltrates, in a perfectly uniform way, right to the feeding zone the high value trees' roots are in). That's a free and perfect fertilizer delivery system. Beyond anything you could achieve with chemical fertilizers and machines. The beauty of it is that the animals don't have to be where the high value trees are. They're in and above the swale (fenced off from the high value trees), and then the swale takes the nutrients down to the trees.
The grazing itself is not the goal, or the main source of production. In most situations, grazing suffers because of swales, it isn't improved. I guess a shallow slope in a dry climate might be an exception, where I can imagine a silvopasture with SHALLOW and WIDE swales, spread wide apart, and a row of trees only down slope from the swale , would do the job better than leaving the land as is...there, the benefit of keeping all the rain might be worth the digging, even when the main purpose is to grow grass, not trees. But, otherwise, swales don't belong on pasture. They work in combination with trees, and A LOT of trees, not just a few here and there.
Great comment.
Trees can be important to cattle and other grazers. Cattle thrived in the forests of Great Britain before the land was cleared. Many farming and ranching systems employ trees as part of their strategy. Trees help shade grasses from hot weather, adding to overall grass growth. They shade cattle during hot weather. When the Temperature Humidity Index hits 80°F cattle start enduring stress and lose condition. Sustained 80°F THI can kill them. Shade is important.
Many trees provide highly nutritious leaves to supplement cattle feed as well as depositing mulch that helps protect ground moisture and recharge topsoil fertility. Trees encourage mycelium much better over grasses alone. Mycelium is important for redistributing soil moisture and minerals to where they are needed.
A system set up as a savannah is the most productive system there is.
Try to to choose trees appropriate to your location. A polyculture ensures better nutrient distribution and soil health which is key. Make sure to check that the trees are compatible with your livestock, climate etc. Consider using pioneer trees if the landscape is very degraded.
Trees can up the production game.
Swales can be important in reducing salts in the soil growing zones. Salts can kill plants and add to their drying out, stresses,etc. Frequent placement helps flush the salts away and add viability.
Look up the impact of swales made by the CCC in the 1930s in the Sonoran desert, by hand. Within the swales it is especially lush and the soil is friable. While the soil outside the swales is pretty dry, I am pretty certain if you compare that valley to neighboring ones, the overall life in that valley with the swales is much enhanced.
Trees are a problem for tractors to maneuver, so never space too closely if you want tractor access.
Is swales good for hazelnut bushes? I know you said trees. By the way really liked your explanation.
This is where my husband and I had disagreed on. He wanted me to wait to get livestock, I got some fence up first and then I got livestock. I have made a little off the livestock already. Not much, but it's a start. Trying to sort out how to benefit my land with my goats and a couple horses. I have not found a lot of info out there, so I have been taking some about the cattle operations and trying to tweak it for the goats. The are providing manure and clearing brush. I have been trying to use hay on the ground, but the hay must be really good because the horses seem to suck up every piece. (I accuse my hay guy of lacing it with horse crack. 😜). I am also using chickens to break up the horse manure. It is working very well.
If you love horses great. Otherwise why horses. At least a cow can be sold later for food or fill your own freezer
A good horse is a dead horse. They compact land and over graze.
Wow. Lot’s of response. I’m a suburban dweller that notices most horse fields are extremely overgrazed. That leaves buying straw/hay.
@Steve Slade No, not doing cattle. I do not have the equipment to handle them, I do not have the grazing available for them at this time, I do not have the capital to purchase them, and I do not have the capital to purchase the hay they would require. At this time, cattle are not an option for me.
@@kenbibbee837 Yes, I love horses, always have. I own 2. One is an old retired companion that will not be replaced when she is gone. The other is a horse that I trained, is an "easy keeper", and my homestead is named for. I had the one horse before I moved here and before I had any other livestock. She and her companion provided a good source of animal manure from the start, which this property sorely needed. And, if things got seriously bad, she is a mode of transportation.
Thanks for posting the mistakes as well as the success. Most probably wouldn't fix this mistake and the fact you are makes me feel like you are the regenerative rancher. Thanks for sharing
Thanks for sharing my grandpop was a farmer in Lacrosse, Va. back in the 40's & 50's. Definitely, hard work i take my hat off to all the farmers who provide food for the people.
.. You're a Good Man to show all of us a "Big-Mistake" that you made .. I hope you keep all of us "updated" with more videos about the progress you are making in Rehabilitating the Land ..
Will do
Yes you are correct. Very wise words Swales do not work on every piece of land in every area for everyone. They are not the magic answer Magic Bullet for all situations. They do have their place and they can work beyond what your expectations are. They can be wonderful. But they are not the only way to do things and the answer for everybody. I put some on my property they did not work for me. I was concerned before I start it so I did a very small scale. Within two years I filled them back in. People need to remember that swells are a tree growing system level on Contour. They do not have to be the clear length of your property you can start them and stop them leaving a roadway in between. These roadways can also double as a spillway if they should get full and overflow. As long as the water is not causing erosion or other problems that works fine. You can also make swells narrow or wide enough to drive in. You also have to consider what kind of livestock if any you're going to have. They are a part of the whole system. The whole system must work and each part in that system must work with the other systems. They cannot be on a very steep Terrain and they do not work necessarily on extremely flat Terrain. I have also seen them where they can help dry out land and move water making the ground less boggy. I would suggest understanding your rainfall do you need to hold water on your property or slow the water from leaving your property. We have rain in the Pacific Northwest six months out of the year sometimes 9 months out of the year. In the summertime when we need the rain the most we have none.. the Swale is not going to solve that problem. I would suggest anyone wanting to try a Swale dig it with a shovel or find a friend with a tractor to do it for free on a very very small scale. If I was running more sheep there is no way I can let sheep in with young trees. There are many ways to hold water on your land having better soil is one of them.
Thank you Greg for always showing the failures as well as the successes! It's always better to learn what to do or not to do & when to do something before you spend the money/time on it. I can see that in your type of situation with your style of farming & grazing it would be a headache working around swells as you have shown. And if someone is wanting to move livestock on their farm(s) and that's mainly what they want to do I agree, swells probably aren't what they need to focus on putting in. Just build organic mater on top. But if someone out there wants an area on their farm to grow trees or shrubs (fruit, nut or berries) swells have shown to work very well for this by many people. Swells mainly are a tree growing system and work very well at soaking water deep into the ground for the trees and shrubs/bushes that would be planted right below the swell. They also work well to catch water, that would otherwise run off your land, and direct it into a pond to help feel it faster. This may not be needed unless a pond has a hard time staying full.
All that said, I love that we all share our experiences (successes & failures) to help each other note only save time and money but hopefully help everyone speed up their successes, in whatever type of farming, whether it be live stock, growing systems or both. As Greg pointed out, swells probably are not needed if you are only doing a grazing system. Just don't rule them out if you want an aea for trees. Just study when and how to put them in, plus when to use them.
Thanks again Greg for all you do!
I wonder if this is more of a poor implementation of swales than the failure of swales. Many of the problems you mentioned sound like they could have been easily avoided with better design. I don't think swales are a bad idea in the right areas, and if done with a holistic mindset as to the land use afterwards. And I definitely disagree with neglecting your trees after being planted. That doesn't apply to areas that have deer wandering all over the property.
I didn't want to sound like a know it all but I deffintly agree with you. A heavy equipment operator can make a big mess if he don't understand what you are trying to achieve. I have trained water and rearranged land over a period of years with till plows and bottom plows by putting in terraces and just incrementally working towards the final goal. Also any grading protect you should push the top soil off into a pile and then spread it back on top after the grading is done. Also I 100% agree with getting cattle first and doing these type projects with the profits.
Two big factors why swales failed Greg. Soil is a composition of sand, silt, and clay. I've seen vids of swales working very well in sand dominated soil. The swales allowed the water to seep into the ground. Greg mentions that his soil composition is primarily clay. Slow seepage can happen with clay, keeping most the water on the surface. Also Greg is trying to develop a grazing lot, not a food forest lot therefore ponds may be more effective then clay built up swales that more evenly distribute water across the whole lot. Swales can work. This is an important project because we all learn a shortcoming of swales. Thanks Greg!
Complained about the swales breaking down immediately, cutting off access to the land, creating "mud ponds", life not growing in the berms.
Sounds like type 1 errors, lacks of a proper spillway, not planting cover crops to stabilize the berm?
I think Greg is getting at - it's more cost effective to run irrigation from an existing well than it is to do earthworks (and all the side chores that it involves).
That being said, he is completely ignoring the up sides of the swale. It's sinking water into the land and (over time) to create fertility to plant trees.
When we had the swales built, we had the fellow who wrote the book on this put them in. So they were put in correctly
You guys have no idea what you're talking about. Swales can be a massive mistake, I'd only do them if I was planting fruit and nut trees with tree tubes in an ally cropping scenario.
Savory vs Mollison. Both would tell you, start with what you can afford. Holistic management always asks "What do you do when you have no options," and, by extension "What do you do when you have no money/resources to work with?" Mollison would tell you the same thing and would actually call you a fool for destroying your ability to farm/ going bankrupt and create cashflow for the sake of costly earthworks before you had exhausted every other low-cost, immediately beneficial improvement that made your operation resilient and profitable.
Wow. Thank you for the warning! Planning some very small scale swales for my vegetable garden, and I'll keep them short so we can still get around to mow. Very helpful!
Blaming swales instead of blaming the designer . Good advice on cash flow
You are so open about the ups and the downs of farm life. Thank you!
Please interview Jan about shiitake marketing and processing for home use.
I want to apologize for a comment about this video right after it was posted. I did not realize it would be considered rude but apparently it was so I immediately deleted it. I have nothing but respect for Greg Judy and I consider this site a blessing in many ways. I will be sure to be polite and not express anything negative from now on.
These videos are so valuable, thanks.
I think this is a problem of poor planning and poor design and not studying the topography of the farm in order to strategically place the swales for optimum benefit
swale water isn't about pond clear persay though. You can direct swale water to a pond. it's more about the hydration of land. If you have a landscape prone to drought. Keyline was probably what this property needed. Just a glance but yall sorta get enough water in your area. I'd have extended that keyline into your silvo but with crapppy invasive trees. Autumn olive, black locuts. something that is a hard kill then pop in quality trees after I got a semi silvo canopy. cutting down streets where I needed open spaces. I think though you are right early permaculture was too quick to swale 20 years ago and even10 years aog. Without reading the land and realizing the cost and what was needed. You are supposed to live on the land for a few years before you start making major changes like that. But folks do rush for the swale. Unless you run ducks and geese (which you should really run ducks and geese by the way, totally overlooked right now. I'd do ducks and geese before chicken) Even then I'd wait to see what your land tells you.. you need
Ducks and geese cost a lot to butcher, and are difficult to market, even without all the added costs. God bless you if you can run them in bulk and find steady, long-term buyers. But that is a tough market.
Yeah, know your market. A farmer near to the Bay Area here sells his ducks to the local Asian markets, works well but white people predominantly like chicken. I love duck eggs and the fatty meat so I’ll be having some on my homestead forsure.
I don't recall ever reading Allen Savory suggesting the use of swales in livestock grazing. Swales may work well in a permaculture application. Based on what I'm seeing, me thinks it'll take about ten years for a really good regenerative biologically diverse root zone to develop - I do hope it's sooner, but clay is one tough customer. I've always though using bales of hay to create temporary swales [which I've done] was much better then cutting the ground. I'm a recent subscriber because I'm always looking for additional ideas and hard earned wisdom. Stay safe - be well - many blessings.
Do put top soil ontop of the hay?
*you
using pioneers that are suited for clay soils which penetrate clay with their deep tap root helps break it up also gypsum can help as well, but once you aim and have a biologically active healthy soil it starts to transform everything, it'll be just the right medium for plants, and no waterlogging for clays or dryness for sandy soils
thank you for this video! I almost done that to the place I am on now! i was supposed to have it done next spring! you saved me a bunch of headaches i am not able to thank you enough for this video!!
Agreed. Graze em right, and graze em tight. Water will do its thing.
Says a lot if feeding hay won't bring the stand back.
Designing in swale crossings quite important if you need to get across them...! I would only use them on very steep land, or where you have a lot of water to spread out from a valley and at a spacing that allows efficient grazing in the alleys.
Why did you do swales if you didn't have runoff problems? Livestock are not gonna solve runoff problems. It would make sense to leave a path, also, so that's a good lesson.
Sheppard has ammeded STUN a bit over the years, I'm not sure he still feels the same way. I therorize that if swales are to be incorporated into pastures or cropland, they need to be big, really big, so you barely notice them other than just a gentle roll of the land. I think the permies have some interesting ideas, bit a lot of it does seem to be about the $. I'd need to clear timber for the only area that might benefit from swales, so I haven't tried them. As it is, my property will soak 4" of rain into clay before it runs off, just from keeping the dirt covered and not tearing up slopes. Ben Falk reports similar figures with is swales.
They're expensive and difficult to make properly and take many years to mature.
I'd say that for commercial farming, agro-silvo-pasture alleycropping is a much easier sell.
@@beorntwit711 For sure, especially for 30+ inch rainfall temperate zones. As you approach more marginal land, more drastic measures are probably justified.
STUN. Wow, thought I was the only one who failed with that. Just west of Kansas City, 600 seedlings over 3 years. Maybe 50 survived. I’m 50/50 on your swale thoughts though. I put 3 in with the thought of grazing between them later. Now that I’m getting closer to putting some livestock on the land I see where I will have to fence around them. I think replenishing the water table with swales is a good idea. Planting trees on them or the downside of them is good. But if you are getting 30”+ of rain a year, yeah they are probably not worth the expense unless you need to redirect water flow.
plant river red gums they love water and drought and are the best fire wood in the world
@@Whiskey61 no need for racism here, not all white people are the same and people of colour who study permaculture also make the same mistake
You didnt fail
The 50 were the most suitable to conditions
Did you plant 'pioneer' species?
Was there enough top soil?
@@charleswalters5284 yeah 50 out of 600 is excellent for STUN
Greg I don't own a farm but I watch every one of your videos it calms me and gives me perspective, your honesty is inspirational and a breath of fresh air in this day and age.
Me, too. I hope it will inspire you to buy the products regenerative farms produce. They're really delicious! :)
Thanks!
Thank you for doing this video, Greg. I never understood how something likes swales that require so much steel, fuel and labor cost could be considered regenerative. The best way to slow down water and get it into the soil is with a living cover, with deep roots creating channels (mini-swales?) to capture and retain the rain, while keeping the ground cool. Much cheaper and more regenerative than a dozer at $150-$200 an hour.
it depends, he is in a land where that is possible, but there are more arid or soils with a lot of erosion, so swales must be done before having grass, if people want grass.
you realize a single backhoe can regenerate thousands of acreage under the right hand? and once you start a right swale it will snowball into a forest, i think forests are more than worthy and certainly can offset more carbon than some dozer factory.
Hmmmm. Sounds like water management is tricky when more variables are thrown in. Contour + soil permeability + annual precipitation + planned use + subsoil/bedrock + . . .
Identifying and recording any variables in your situation might further understanding of a relatively new approach to land stewardship
For instance, what do swales do when the ground is frozen. All important factors to report.
A swale in your Missouri climate is a 2000 lb cow. It destroyed the place. It is great that you don't hide your mistake. A hard lesson can often be the best remembered so thank you for putting it out there. I believe that a swale will work in arid places like India where they capture the very rare rainfall which would otherwise run off the land.
Moving around yellow clay won't help much to heal the scar. Why not take some of that piled up brush and wood chip it onto the dirt as mulch, before laying the hay, to accelerate the soil regeneration and add biomass?
Admitting a mistake and then fixing it. More life lessons from the Professor. Have a great day Greg.
George you have a great day as well!
Thank you.
Very good advice.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
you wouldn't need swales with your superb land management and no over grazing the cover stops the water runoff and the organic matter absorbs the water so nothing to run into swales keep up the good work and advice - 72 yearly New Zealander
That’s a really nice hat!!!!! Are those new??? Another great lesson, I can never say that enough... The master is willing to help everyone, the question is whether or not we pay attention. We’re going to start looking for property next year. I am eternally grateful for the information y’all are willing to share!!!! God’s blessings to all at Judy Farm.(Hopefully Ben is home safe!!! Isaac shoot straight 🙏
That's a hat I gave Greg when we visited for a farm tour. It's from my Montana cattle operation, uncommon beef. Greg's been a big help to me in guiding me through making good regenerative decisions and avoiding expensive mistakes. I'm glad he likes the hat.
I was contemplating this method for a hilly property that I’m looking at purchasing. Thanks for sharing.
Swales are mainly sustainable, low-input, landscape-hydrating tree growing systems, and yes, these small trees may need irrigation for a number of years until the soil is fully hydrated and the trees established.
In the book Water for Any farm by Mark Shepherd, he talks about drive through access periodically on the swales. It can be designed in to allow access. Greg's rented farms are very hilly and the field size is pretty small to begin with. When you divide them up a lot with swales the fields get even smaller. Then run 300 cows through the small fields and it is a lot of work. He is doing something right though. In May of this year, his fields were knee high after grazing. Some of the greenest grass you have ever seen. all of the surrounding farms looked terrible in comparison.
I am planning to run a subsoiler on contour in my fields to slow the water down and give room for roots to go deep. In my gulleys, I plan to make more ponds as well.
The smaller fields are conducive to higher-density grazing
Hmm... I don't really associate swales with grazing cattle. I associate it with gardening, permaculture gardening, orchards and the like. I associate it with areas where the rain is often in short supply. But your feedback is quite interesting and especially when coupled with poor soil quality. Maybe running chickens on the swales (and the land between) could help improve the soil quality. I know bulldozing land is a sure way to rid the land of its topsoil and thus its fertility. That will have to be replaced or regenerated if you are going to try swales and be successful at it. As you say, you'd best think twice about the need for swales if you are planning to herd cattle thru that land.
Agree completely. Tried them here in MO too and they suck. Had same experience, big mess you cant keep managed and cant get across the field anymore. Maybe in an area that has a very steep slope and little rainfall they might be useful, but not here. The only thing swales appear to be good for is selling books ;)
Thank you for warning people and teach them to do it properly
Thank you very much for studying, sir. :):):) It is not worth making the same mistakes. God bless Your work.
It looks like water may stand in the swales. That would be main reason nothing grows.
They should be filled with organic matter to facilitate infiltration. Swales are not the answer for every locale. They are a tree growing system.
plant river red gums they love water and drought and are the best fire wood in the world
Great information.
I think this is a perfect example of the toolbox drawer, not all tools are appropriate for every job.
Sometimes a hammer is needed, other times a brush is.
Sometimes you need to force a thing, other times you need to tickle the system.
Maybe this would be better served by using a root plow on contour while dripping humic acid and molasses into the trench to encourage roots to follow the plow and build organic matter deeper into the soil. Nicole Masters calls this "Rip and drip"
That looks like a trough more than a swale, most swales follow the uphill grade then a low berm is created on the low end and then ties to the natural grade
Any sources for suggestions on how to figure out the uphill grade of a property? I’ve been watching mr lawton but haven’t got info about how to figure out the contour..I have water running down my driveway under the house and into the back pasture...
A Frame?
Thanks for sharing
We learn from our mistakes and I’m sorry for your expensive swale mistake. It sure is a pretty area you are standing on.
I think swales definitely were not right for your environment or they were not designed correctly to fit your operation. The traditional style works in much dryer climates.. I'm experimenting with them in the south east but building them bottom up using logs and woodchips on contor. I've made them like gentle wide speed bumps to slow the water and drop sediment.
Check out Zaytuna farm, they are dry climate.
Dry climates usually have seasonal rains and then none or a wet season and dry season. In those cases, capturing the one or two floods of the year is very important, but not when you get rain all year long like Greg does.
Exactly, for his context maybe just unrolling bales on contor in areas that have less topsoil could help trap sediment during heavy rain events.
He's completely right about focusing on revenue and not spending money where you don't need to. Greg knows what he is doing 😆 his work is extremely inspiring!
In no way is Zaytuna located in a dry climate! It might be in Australia which is the driest inhabited continent on the planet but the area where the farm is located in New South Wales receives 40 inches (1000mm) rain as the average annual rainfall. Originally the area was covered in temperate rainforest before European settlement. Geoff Lawton is however an expert in swales and their appropriate use (see his work on greening the desert in the Kingdom of Jordan). I would think he would have doubts about using swales in Greg Judy’s operation because of the difficulties associated with incorporating their use into a busy diverse livestock operation spread over multiple separate sites. I do agree with you in that I think in this particular case the swales were not designed or constructed in a way that was sympathetic to the site or to the requirements of Greg’s operation.
Wow! It is good to see the down side of these swale ideas.
If one watches all the well made videos, you would think swales are the answer to all agricultural problems.
Great show Greg it takes a BIG man to admit a mistake. I think a swale is better if rainfall would be less then 12 inches, like in a desert.
So what I’m also getting is that you gotta plan access for whatever will be using the land into the design. Thanks Greg!
Great job
I bet those mud holes as he name them will be a very nice water ponds in a few years down the road. The swales worked like a charm, trees are growing back again. Swales are a long term endeavor & they are not defined for instant gratification.
I like that little pond
It is a mud hole, not a pond. Dries up every summer.
Swales have their place and what you do with a swale depends heavily on climate. Mr. Judy is correct. Get cash flow on the farm first. Then if you want to, develop swales for aquaculture and food forests in convenient locations on the farm that aren't going to impact your immediate income. Swales and food forests and aquaculture can produce income but you aren't going to see it right away and if designed improperly you can create one heck of a mess.
Im a graderman. That swale is way to steep the slope is four to six percent and probably the reason your ditch isnt recovering. You were probably moving too much water too fast and carrying away topsoil. If hindsight were 20 20 a gentler slope of one to two percent slows the rate of drainage and water would have percolated more and achieved what your intentions were originally. By the way I grew up on a farm were we did the same things you were doing
Swales are not a "fix" for every problem although they do have their uses in the proper settings. I've had excellent success with swales for growing berries and preventing erosion. I don't even try to use swales where I graze our livestock. Know your land and use the proper technique in the proper location.
Swales are a tree growing system and he didn't plant a single tree . his biggest complaint is you can't get over them. Bud that's on you for poor planning. You got put in the access points before you dig by saying , Here's where I want to get my tractor through, Mark that spot with flags and then dig the spot to the left and right of the flags and then you get two swales on the same contour. Or if you are really fancy you put a big culvert pipe down and burry it. You going to spend more time and deasl filling in the whole swale rather than buying some culvert pipes and installing them. I live in missouri to bud the soil is minimal but when that water penetrates clay that water will store up and if you get enough swales ,down hill you going to get a seep spring . bro just salty he didn't.
Thanks Mr. Judy.
have you done subsoiling or keyline tilling? seems like a nice alternative to swales
I definitely agree swales aren't always the answer and that too many people just implement them without proper planning. And given that they run on contour they can complicate livestock management. Obviously it's hard to say if there could have been a good implementation of swales on the property without actually being there (better would definitely have been possible. f.i. crossing should have been included in the design) but from the vid it seems like they were indeed the wrong choice here. Personally I would have probably leaned to keyline plowing over swales for the property.
It's funny to see some commenters just dismissing swales out of hand though. If a building collapses because the wrong materials were used we would blame the builder/architect, not the material. But if swales are used incorrectly then somehow the swales are too blame rather than the designer. People are funny. We would be much better of accepting there is no 'one size fits all' solution but I guess it's easier to dismiss things out of hand because they don't fit our particular need.
I mean... blaming swales... obviously they can work.
Question is: are they cost effective? Are they ever the optimal tool?
I can think of no scenario (except non-commercial/aesthetics) where they outperform keyline plowing with agroforestry alleys for grazing or annual cropping.
@@beorntwit711 Swales are multifunctional. They can harvest soil and spread otherwise concentrated nutrient around the landscape. They can fill (actually properly built) ponds. But you have to do them right. If all you need is the one function of water soakage, keyline plowing is excellent.
@@myronplatte8354 i don't know what you mean by 'soil harvesting', but by physical properties, riplines (from keyline ploughing) do the same, only better (since they're better distributed), and cheaper, and easier to 'remove' (they tend to self heal).
Though they can't 'fill a pond', sure, but that's what valleys and mini swales (keyline design has that included, minus food forest) are for: dealing with dam overflow.
@@beorntwit711 Swales tend to concentrate organic matter and generate soil. That's what I mean. Small swales are also swales. 🙂
I am sure it depends where you live though. There is a lot of success in Spain where I live. No rain for 5 months and 40 degree Celsius temp for a few weeks regularly during summer.
Very interesting!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. God Bless🙂
Same to you!
Thank you Greg that's a great information to us
Your swales did not have to be as long as they are. Many people break them up. It also looks like you made your swales backwards with the soil piled up on the wrong side of the ditch. It’s pretty obvious that’s what you did by the mere fact that your trees died but you have ponds mere feet away. Don’t blame the swales. And if you meant this for grazing then why would you build swales to begin with?
Life gives lessons. We learned and will never make that mistake again. The swales were built correctly by a professional swale builder. 1 foot on contour every 100 feet.
Johnny needs to grease that dozer! This is one of your best and most informative videos
Dozer tracks run with steel on steel, you will always hear squeaking. Johnny keeps everything greased or he would be out of business.
If Isaac gets a deer are you going to film it? Great job of showing and talking about your mistakes.
Thank you for the warning.
I can't imagine not watering trees for at least the first year after planting them. So sorry this system didn't work out for you!
Very informative video, as always. However, please zoom out a little on the camera so we can see what Greg is pointing at during the video. Several times during the video, he pointed to the side and, because the camera was so zoomed in, we can't see what he's pointing to. Thanks and keep up the great work.
Alot of intelligent comments here. In Australia, possibly the driest continent on earth, swales have been used effectively for certain purposes especially in slowing and spreading water. The water soaks in to the ground and resupplies the aquifer below. Greg's soil type probably wasn't suitable to start with. I'm not sure what he was really trying to achieve by using swales with his amazing practices and success covering the land with vegetation and rotating the grazing. Maybe just an experiment not thought through.
Swales are great but that doesn't mean they are needed and appropriate everywhere!
Maybe you should take a PDC course with Geoff Lawton, there you learn to implement the appropriate techniques for each climate.
I'm surprised that you didn't understand rain infiltration in 2015.
I made a mistake period. Nobody held a gun to my head and made me put in swales. I do want other beginning graziers making this same mistake. I let my emotions get the best of me!
My poverty has protected me from this mistake so far. So, I appreciate the views and advice. I can see how the swale could be a tank trap. Other farms have gotten trees to be established along their swales. Now, I'm imagining how the traffic flow is going to play out. I've gotta go and check out those farms which were planted a few years ago - just to see how they're doing it. Thanks for the views Greg.
Know your climate! The permaculture advocates of swales are in rather arid climates. Missouri gets 30-40" of annual rainfall, sure it's hot & dry in summer, but not arid.
@@davidkottman3440 Yup, it's something that seems to work in Wisconsin, New Jersey, Ohio and Missouri, Tennessee, new england too, apparently.
www.acresusa.com/products/water-for-any-farm?_pos=1&_sid=9b4a2167e&_ss=r
thebarefootfarm.wordpress.com/tag/mark-shepard/
I guess that there's some Ecosystem Restoration Co-op services near southern Spain that would use some means to recharge the water table. A group with John D Liu has 30 locations that might use swales for controlling water... but they aren't in Missouri, true.
There's a good film about the work with water and vegetation called Green Gold. It's gotten thousands interested in doing this work:
czcams.com/video/YBLZmwlPa8A/video.html
Maybe you'd like to see more?
@@roberthayes2027 I could write a book about it myself, but of course everyone else knows more... Know your climate & soils... Not every site needs the same treatments. Even the generally acknowledged experts talk about "context" and how important it is to modify approaches based on local conditions. Where Mr. Judy & I farm, soils have a very distinct clay subsoil retaining moisture very well & we get more than 30 inches of precipitation per year. Carefully designed terraces to control runoff are appropriate for some hillsides, but water retaining swales without any discharge outlets are not. Period, end of story. I'm 63, studied soils, agronomy, & conservation at University, grew up on farms, and have professionally farmed for a living more than 40 years. Places that have less rainfall &/or more permeable soils have different needs... Do what's right for your situation & don't dismiss the knowledge of your local State extension &/or conservation specialists.
@@davidkottman3440 using pioneers that are suited for clay soils which penetrate clay with their deep tap root helps break it up also gypsum can help as well, but once you aim and have a biologically active healthy soil it starts to transform everything, it'll be just the right medium for plants, and no waterlogging for clays or dryness for sandy soils one can do a lot of things
@@erfan4244 So, are you speaking from a decade or more of experience in claypan soils, or as an internet trained expert? I have seen the proper plants & plant rotation do amazing things in a few years, along with various practices to shape water flow, but it does not transform your natural resources into something else. One must absolutely know the soil & climate context you are discussing! If you doubt me, ask your favorite experts whether they consider soils & climate in their desgns...
What if instead of aggressive swales long and gentle slopes were used so the equipment could cross? All you need to control water is a gentle slope or wave to direct the water. Just wondering.
Keep the money in your pocket, buy livestock. Swales don't have baby calves every year like cows do!!!!
If you want pasture use a keyline plow. If you want trees, use swales. Think about tractor access as you're laying things out.
I like what you're doing! Greetings, Fred
The swales should have drained to a larger central pond and not been made so big, or alternatively have no ponds and have been cut shallower and in a non-continuous offset pattern that can be driven through.
_____ _____ _____
_____ _____
Those “swale ponds” prove that whoever put these ditches on that property have absolutely No understanding of the purpose, method, and function of swales.
Hm. It sounds that quite a lot of planning work before implementing those swales was not done thoroughly enough. However, this is something very human.
Should’ve put a thick layer of black mulch on top. Would’ve had perfect soil.
I bought a farm 18months ago and had all these grand plans of swales and all sorts
But I resisted and just fenced and got water all over the property, then I sat back and said nah bugger swales I’ll just get more animals and keep my money
The theory is nice but just seems like way to much hassle and expensive.
Good decision on your part!!
Interesting. I would venture to say that the swales may not have been , “worthless” but perhaps not fitting your particular context.
I think another approach, as opposed to keeping it in grass and STUNned tress, would be to lease the swaled area out to an entrepreneurial gardener who would mulch the area and bio intensively manage an edible/medicinal perennial landscape. Plants with wide, fast growing networks of roots like mint and comfrey would keep the swales from eroding and hold moisture while filtering the rainfall.
The resulting areas that are filled with standing water could be utilized by ducks running through an established, planted berm.
Maybe the swale could even make you and another farmer money.
Pretty good advice in general...but I think the guy meant dirt bridge. Not a bridge structure. You way overdid the swales and with too heavy of equipment, if you make the swales more shallow...the grass would come back quicker and bridge wouldn't be needed. Also curious why you're driving around on your pasture trying to improve. Pick a spot for the road that interacts well with the swales and drainage and build up the "mud hole" with organic matter or dig it deeper.
I think you've mixed apples and oranges. My understanding is that swales are to slow water flow instead of running off. Ths requires unpacked soil. But grazing livestock will only compact the soil. Swales could have really helped your property if done right. Never heard of this set it and forget it tree planting method. I won't be trying tyat for sure.
Life lessons. Good move Greg.