Why Fundamentalism is Not (Always) Such a Bad Thing. Take Bart for example...
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- čas přidán 22. 01. 2024
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Bart has never held back from opposing Christian fundamentalism (and every other religious fundamentalism), even though he was once a fundamentalist himself. Many fundamentalists consider (and call) him the spawn of the Devil for his attempts to expose the flaws of fundamentalist thinking, in part because he understands the view from the inside. But Bart has never publicly talked about how being a fundamentalist had a serious upside and played a positive role in his life, affecting everything that came after in some extraordinarily helpful ways. In this episode he spills the beans on how being a fundamentalist proved, in some ways, to be a good thing. (Even if he doesn't advise going there!)
Megan asks Bart:
-You became a born-again, fundamentalist Christian at 15. How did your teenage life change following that experience?
-What had been your trajectory up until that point? Had you already planned to take your academic studies further than an undergraduate degree?
-You went to Moody Bible Institute - was that a direct result of your conversion?
-What was it like being a student at Moody?
-Did it give you a good grounding for your future studies?
-Did it give you any experience with research?
-How did being a fundamentalist impact your time at Princeton Theological Seminary?
-Did your experiences as a youth pastor help inform how you teach and lecture?
-Do you think you’d have had this career if you hadn’t become a fundamentalist Christian?
-Did you have any prior interests in ancient or foreign languages?
-Fundamentalism gave you the drive to study intensively, and the forum to develop your skills as a communicator…are there any downsides to your educational experience?
-Do you feel as though your experiences as a fundamentalist were overall a net positive in your life?
We are aware of a sound issue on this episode and apologize. We have resolved it for future episodes. If you'd like to view the corrected recording of this episode please visit: vimeo.com/906138373/ff7a996ea1?share=copy
Good to know. Was the issue just that there was only a left channel, or do we miss anything substantial?
Oh, the Vimeo video is so much better... thank you!
Anyone else listening with headphones/ear buds having an issue with the sound only coming through one side?
Yep me as well.
It’s upsetting to say the least
All ok.
@@mrlume9475you’re getting both channels?
Same here
My life is much like Bart's. I got "saved" at 13 years old (1961) at a first baptist church in BC Canada. Went to Toronto Bible College from 1965-1969. That was a college much like Moody, but didn't have as much of a prestigious name.
I took Greek for 3 years there, and Hebrew for two. I had to do "field work" as Bart described...my last year there was as student assistant at Patterson Presbyterian Church in Toronto. Wonderful minister there, Bruce Herod. Then I went off to three years of university. It was during those years that I changed my views, and became what could be called an agnostic. That's what I have been ever since. However, I still study Greek and Hebrew, and the old and new testaments. I look back at my life with no regrets. For many years I believed that Christianity was the truth...but that stopped in the early 70s. Anyway...if anyone cares...there's my life. If any of my old classmates read this, please say hello to me.
As much as I love hearing y'all get into the nitty gritty of scholarship, I also very much enjoy these episodes that are more from a personal lens, because scholarship doesn't exist in a vacuum and it's always good to have a sense of WHO the men and women behind it are, and find out more about what their backstory is, what drives them, what their passions are.
Loved this episode. As one who attended a fundamentalist Baptist private Christian school then graduated from Wheaton College before attending grad school at a public institution, I relate to much of what Bart says
Good to see you doing well Dr.Ehrman!
It's great to hear how you got to where you are. Very encouraging for all future students - especially being self-taught in so many areas.
Isn't it amazing how some unseemingly decisions we make in our lives have huge impact on where we are now. Thank you Bart for confirming my suspicions. Your life path and mine are similar but different.
Just pay attention to the intricate interplay of cause and effect . And practice foresight . You create your own “heaven or hell” through your thoughts words and actions . Choose wisely :)
I'm elated for the release of this next book Prof. Ehrman mentioned! I'm confident it'll be worth the wait! Great topic & great conceptual title.
It's fun and cathartic to hear a little more about your story, lots of parallels to mine, as a former missionary, lots of pros and cons! How do I rail against the thing that made me who I am?
It's a pleasure to listen your podcasts Sir Barth, your kindness and humanity, even here from Rome, how an ex seminarist that have grow inside the Catholic Church and have studied this matter so well that's its clearly ended.. in your same drammatic conclusions. But In the end, we always will remain what we are. How agnostic, but also within that sentiment.
Megan has always seemed like a good listener/interviewer but it turns out this entire time she was really just thinking about goldfish
Why Thinking about Goldfish is Not (Always) Such a Bad Thing. Take Megan for example...
Megan’s glasses are on point as usual 🤩 This is such fascinating podcast. Great to listen to two intelligent, eloquent and charismatic people do interviews and talk about interesting topics particularly because their chemistry is so relaxed, calm and amicable. Great episode again.
Love seeing these two 💕
Enjoyed hearing the history of early Bart
Another wonderful discussion!
For those having stereo issues (left side only playing), you can put the mono-audio option on in windows (or your OS) and then listen 'normally' : )
Yay,😇 the great Flying Spaghetti Monster caused Digital Hammurabi and this channel to come up at the same time! So I got a double dose of Megan. Bart was fascinating as usual.
Thanks for sharing your story, Bart. As a former Catholic priest who left the ministry and had a full satisfying career in the corporate world, I'd just say keep your open mind open going forward. In retirement, I'm rediscovering my faith and the value of Church, not with blinders on but with all I've learned and experienced since, including my work with hospice patients and my parents deaths. The evidence coming out of the near death experience field is pretty compelling. Maybe it's getting older that has me more focused on what's next. Maybe it's the Holy Spirit saying "Adventure awaits.". Either way, it's brought the "fruits of the spirit" so even if I'm mistaken, it's positive. I'm sure it's aggravating when people recommend books to read, so I'll risk that by suggesting two... 😉. The Art of Dying by Fenwick and Original Blessing by Fox. Cheers!
Two reasons why Bart changed my thinking years ago. One, he uses impeccable logic. Two, he's been on both sides of the argument. If you truly want a broad perspective on a topic, find someone who has been on both sides at different points in their life. I did it with Thomas Sowell (a former Marxist) with politics and Bart with religious belief.
I wish the conversation had lingered at least a little on what the nature of Bart's born again *experience* was. (Great conversation as always, though.)
Thank you.
in the Forward to one of his books, Bart describes his path through the colleges. he's being humble. the sharpest scholar at Moody told him, paraphrasing; "you've developed so far, we can't help you further. try Wheaton, but be careful... they don't believe they way WE do..." so he goes there & wears them out. top scholar tells him that there aren't many places left that can teach & challenge him, so he might as well go to Princeton (along w/ Yale, tops in the field)... "but be VERY careful there, they don't believe as WE believe." hilarious. that pattern alone must've been a clue.
I appreciate his honest recognition of weakness in formal education found via a Humanities track. in reading his books, I noted examples where he references or interprets aspects of Christianity & NT study wherein he overlooks well-known consensus treatments found in modern academia.
Bart, it's worth the effort to fill that in... History of Philosophy... Philosophy of History... Comparative Cultural Anthropology... Mass Psychology; those kinda surveys, + deep dives wherever you find it most valuable. I know it would extend the quality of your already world class scholarship - & you are young enough to accomplish that. plus, your audience would gain from a perspective so evolved. I don't think people outside of religion quite understand how powerful a fundamentalist belief system can be - tragically powerful on every level. you could really help in that regard due to your life/career trajectory & manner of clear explanation of foundational source materials - a rare skill (Tuchman's Proud Tower or Distant Mirror are fine examples). anyway, thanks for the great personal overview from the trenches (w/ fine guidance from Megan, as ever). {btw, you would've made an excellent constitutional trial lawyer, esp in human rights cases}
I left fundamentalist beliefs in my 20s, and am a joyously Dzochen Buddhist now. It feels meant to be,as an incorrigible animal lover. It's been a hard row to hoe. It was a long, painful, lonely path through a crisis of faith that my family and friends just didn't get. We inherit our Religion like we have a native tongue. I studied all faiths and chose the best one for me. To try re-adopting Christianity would be like trying to fit into my 10 year old's pants. My Buddhist faith fits me like new silk pajamas. It was just meant to be. I've gained so much wisdom for how to deal with all the love,loss and grief I've dealt with over the decades. It isn't like I lost my love and respect for Jesus,but I just couldn't be a Christian any longer. I hope I serve my purpose in God's plan.
Nice cup Megan!
I feel like -Kansas State- **University of Kansas** (my bad, lol) Bart would have been a philosophy major, actually. Maybe not as prolific or as well known, but having known several philosophy professors, he would have fit in with them, lol
As a Kansas State University grad, I am obligated to be offended that you called the University of Kansas "Kansas State" 😂
@@copyrightenforcement3869 lol. My bad. I couldn't remember which he said. Accept my apologies. As someone whose sister went to Virginia Tech and whose brother-in-law went to University of Virginia, I totally understand the level of mistake I have made, lol
52:36 just checked Robert Atler’s The Five Books of Moses. In the footnote and translation Jealous seems to be included as a proper noun and name
Interesting !! Episcopalian with Lutheran family background here -- lots of Women as Deacon / Priest / Bishop -- even the prior Presiding Bp. for all U.S. of A.
(this is a fantastic entry btw
I owe much of my basic Bible knowledge to the encouragement and education I received as a fundamentalist: Bible quizzing, "sword drills," memorization, even songs that taught us all the books in order (very impressive when I became an Episcopalian!).
So relatable
Cook County is very civilized as regards the health care it provides its residents. Congratulations to Bart for contributing to the efforts of its hospital.
Bart has talked about this many times. He has always been generous to the fundamentalist/christian, why? To win a few. He is no dummy despite his cute laugh. He has though become a little testy at times at some fundamentalist christian, which is fun to watch.
Always generous to fundamentalists believing the story of Jesus was built on real magic (aka miracles).
... and always hostile to anyone considering the miraculous story of Jesus was built on myth.
This methodology has increased his acceptance, and I guess influence, within Christian circles.
Bart is still evangelizing as he did when he was younger.@@canwelook
The problem for the United States is that "fundamentalism" has come to be applied to the Constitution and to the "American Way of Life" (as shown on television).
Regimes have been changed in the mistaken belief that the population wants to live like Americans.
I enjoy learning, but the more I learn, the more I believe that ignorance is bliss 😢
An excellent presentation. My feelings exactly. Thank you for pointing out some of the faults in the Bible and in the sayings of Jesus that cause Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism for me was the start in necessary earnestness and discipline but over time I needed to also embrace healthy balance by letting go of the restrictive closed-mindedness of fundamentalism and embrace elements of honest reasoning and credible outside academic/scientific knowledge and information. Fundamentalism vigorously held onto exclusively leads to eventual withering and shriveling and drying up of and isolation of the soul and of one's life. It certainly requires deliberate personal skill in deciding how to navigate the success of one's ongoing life after Christian conversion.
Your book subject of 'The Ethics of Jesus' and altruism will be extremely valuable, in my 51 years as a Christian I have increasingly noticed that Christian altruism and the punishing self-denial commands of Christ are oftentimes a serious injury to a person's legitimate character and growth and success in life, so much so that for a while now I have disagreed with these commands and find them to be unacceptable for absolute application on all people at all times in all places and circumstances as Jesus plainly intended them to be. I am finding that for my own well-being I need to reject a number of the stern commands and sayings of Jesus as absurd and rubbish and abusive and sadistic.
Well, a lot of us did give up everything, even selling our homes and giving away 99% of our stuff, moving into a Camper Trailer to show the seriousness of our faith. and to this day I know of people who refuse to work jobs because they are trying to "get out of Babylon" and live in Tents and ask for handouts because of what JC said. So people are really trying to follow that ....I now know better about the New Testament, about the Blessings and Curses of Deuteronomy 28-30, and realized worshipping and following JC is Idolatry. So I only follow YHWH and definitely do not adhere to Judaism.
@@John.Flower.Productions The Story of the Rich Young Ruler and what he tells the disciples:
Matthew 19:23-24; 17-30 NKJV
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?” So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
Every time Megan brings that inappropriate coffee mug into frame makes me chuckle.
Χαίρε Βαρτ!
Megan, we need a name or a link, please!
Fundamentalism may not always be a bad. But when it IS bad, it is very very bad. I will always maintain that organized religion is the single most destructive phenomenon in human history.
Silly. All religion is organized religion
@@edwardj3070 That would be my point. Religion is man made. And it's quite destructive.
@@gingerhadley not all religions are the same, so your broad statement is just no fun. if you are saying that belief in the supernatural is corrosive and destructive I would agree.
@@edwardj3070 where did I say all religions are the same? The destructive way they manipulate people is the only thing they all have in common. Don't misunderstand me. I have no objection to what strangers I happen across on the internet might believe. And I am not expressing an opinion based on a belief in God or reverence for the Bible. You are free to behave and believe as you wish. But it's not logical to expect everyone to believe the same way you do.
@@gingerhadley you said all religion is man made. Scientology is a good example of that. But others are experienced as received rather than made or invented
All right I'm really interested to hear how fundamentalism isn't always a bad thing
Fundamentally believing every repeated story in history was thought up by an earthbound carbon based human and not by any other creature our fantastic brains have imagined. Also no alien has ever visited earth…ever.
Why is the audio recorded on just one channel? I am hard of hearing and need audo in both ears. Everything is in my left earpice, The right earpice is silent. The headset works on all other videos, and was working in the advert that preceded this video, but as soon as Video starts, right hand channel just disappears, Disappointed as I would have loved to listen to this....
I am disappointed at the frequent interruptions of so many advertisements.
I am want to write a letter to the Hammurabi
Fundamentalism grounded on reasoning and in coherence with human senses and feelings is very beautiful indeed.
In all cases it is much better to me than blind beliefs and arguments attempting to justify those beliefs when they visibly run counter to the senses and feelings of the believer or when those beliefs and feelings and associated arguments become hurtful for others.
The fundamental truth I believe is a person in genuine need of something will not hurt another in fulfilling it or in arguing in favor of his or her need.
"...I just just became more kind of traditionally religious. I had never really read the bible before..." This is a little out of context, but man does it describe a lot of folks.
Bart, I know you state you do not try to deconvert others, but do you ever worry about the younger devout members of your close circle becoming fundamentalist? I often think the young are overly susceptible and need a more balanced education before committing to religiosity.
That seems to just be generally true, but it’s also something no one can really claim to be qualified to control for other people, although there are already other influencers in their lives who actively override whatever balanced education they may get. Not much we can do beyond trying to do our best and hope for the best for all the young minds around us.
Yes sound is no good needs to be reposted.
is it just me or there is NO sound in this vid?
53:16 Uncommon knowledge says 35. 2 b.c.e.- 33 c.e.
Very odd to see in a scholarly-grounded platform fundamentalism conflated with evangelical Christianity
Bart explicitly talks about moving away from fundamentalism while remaining Evangelical, so that doesn’t seem like a conflation to me.
In other contexts most people don't care for reading books & thinking about ideas. Reading the bible is too much like school work to have mass appeal.
Jesus said the tree is known by the fruit it bares. The fruit of evangelicalism is Donald Trump
That's scary but objective reality, that's reveal how clearly the faith of people's have something intrinsecally wrong. Offcourse there are also people's like Megan but not all are so.
#NotificationSquad 😊🎉
So who beat you at Bible trivia?
Some of these comments, man.
Sheesh 😳
Welcome to the internet 🥸
But it did happen next thursday. Jesus was warning about year 66 that was his mision on earth. There's something you don't see. It was reality not apocalyptic. The entire new testament is about the coming in year 66. Megan, love your looks 🙂
Jesus is a hidden gem yet little do they know, for one gem amongst many will the remain left unknown.
Slight mistake, Bart. The greek for a female vigin is parthena. Parthenos is for a male virgin!
*hey, as long as they got the fundamentals?* amirite or amirite? _JC
Bart do you think the apostles or whoever you think first attracted converts to the Faith were able to do so without telling elaborate stories of Jesus' miracles, resurrection and self proclamation as Saviour. Your thesis of the instant deification of Jesus and formation of a faith to be followed based on a historical uncharismatic preacher of apocalypse is just not credible, like Price said in your debate, Clark Kent was never going to inspire the legend of Superman
Liars have a habit of misquoting Jesus.
Dangerous? There is harm? I would disagree. I can clearly understand my social agenda, political, and all agendas through a biblical worldview. It's going to be different than Bart's but just as valid. If you are stating that your agenda is better than mine again I disagree. I feed the homeless, like Bart, help the poor, like Bart, etc. I have been a Christian for over 40 years and the worst the world has gotten from my "agenda" is a guy who loves people and helps in many ways without looking for any returns. So I disagree that the Christian agenda/worldview is dangerous. And if we say, that some Christians are out of their mind, true, but many agnostic/atheists are also out of their minds. So who is right? I do believe we will find out someday. By the way, I love me some Bart and have listened to more of his challenges to Christianity than any other man on CZcams and have and read most of his books. I think Bart has been good for the Christian community so we can understand whether we are consistent in our faith. I always learn from Bart, disagree at times but love his challenge to my way of thinking. So here is a little preaching: If I'm wrong about the existence of God and His expectation, no harm no foul. If I'm right about what I believe the bible teaches (like Bart did at one time) looks like we might have to answer for our choices. Thanks, Megan, you always do a great job with your questions!
you conflate fundamentalism w/ Christianity.
Ah...the old "if there's no god, I don't lose, and if there is a god, you do lose" trope. Would you really want to be around a god who rewarded those who hedged their bets?
@@grumpy9478
Right, Dr Ehrman said Fundamentalism is dangerous not Christianity in general.
I was pretty certain that the issue of theodicy would be a knee-jerk reaction. If God is so good.......This comes from a complete misunderstanding of how the God of the bible truly Is. But I'm not writing for the "true believers" out here, I'm responding to those who are still working through some of the challenges that the "other worldviews" present. On the other hand, you got yourself a decent man who learned goodness from this evil God. Ah...the old "if...is always amusing to me and obviously a condescension. @@stephenbrennwald4927
We know exactly what he means.@@grumpy9478
😇👍👍👍💣
Fundamentalism implies that a supposed truth should never be reconsidered.
Reality does not allow humans to extract objective truths about that same reality.
Every interpretation of reality is just the opinion of some human.
Since the objective is that which does not depend on the opinions of people, no human opinion can be objective.
Since there can be no objective truths, it is absurd to suppose that there could be truths that never need to be revised.
I’m fifteen minutes into the episode. I don’t think the title sends out the right message. People are still dying because of fundamentalism. This is a problem that hasn’t been dealt with yet anywhere. I personally found the title outrageous and offensive. It’s just like saying that cancer can be a good thing. No, it can’t!
I don't think your objection 'sends out the right message'. If we want to understand a topic then we need to discuss it rather than be tied to pre-existing labels. The idea that fundamentalism is always a bad thing has an inference that an original text is always worse than any interpretation, a conclusion that is not logically sustainable.
There’s are 2.38 billon Christian’s on the planet people are dying in mass because they believe in God. That’s like saying all Muslims are bad just because a small percentage of extremist commit atrocities doesn’t mean we should put their sins on the others. In the 20th century alone the two biggest mass murderers Mao and Stalin were atheist.
Yeah, the title feels clickbaity and doesn’t accurately reflect the episode. Bart directly acknowledges the harm fundamentalism does to LGBT people and women and refuses to say it’s been a net positive in his life. “Fundamentalism is good sometimes” really doesn’t seem like the main takeaway from this nuanced discussion.
fundamentalism (in its many forms) promises certainty. in some cases, fundamentalism acts as a brake on dangerously lost people... providing a rules-based structure that tidily explains existence & disciplines lost ones, keeping them on course. conveniently, it easily supports a totalitarian / authoritarian socio-political system. often, badness ensues. aside from all that, it's a pain-in-the-ass for progress of the human animal.
@@John.Flower.Productionsup to a point, though killing off women who knew about herbs, as witches, was unhelpful with progress. Etc, etc, etc ..
Chiasmus is a literary technique frequently used by Greek writers, including those of the New Testament Bart demonstrates it at 19:30 (echoing Mark 2;27). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiasmus.
Megan's "I may look like I'm listening to you but in my head I'm thinking about goldfish" mug 🤣 I'm sure that was an accident and not a dig at Bart but amazing mug.
Learn musi psychology logic moral philosophy and moral turpitude then stay humble an5 meek. 2Chronicles 7:14. HOW CAN YOU KNOW THE WORD OR
Bart I like you bro'
You know the Bible, but you don't understand the word of God. I'm reconsidering whether learning anything from you is good at all anymore.
Exactly. In my opinion
Prof Ehrman is a classic case of, firstly, not seeing the woods for the trees. I think this is mostly because the devil makes easy work of people who put reason above faith when it comes to matters of faith but also because the denomination of Christianity he grew up in wasn't the real deal either. Since he chose knowledge and intellectual prowess above humbly finding and uniting with the living Christ Himself, he withered and died. It is amazing how little he gets it given how much he thinks he knows...
QUESTION OF GOD?!. Hebreo 4:12. Isaiah 34:16-17. Ezekiel 371-3!!!. Jeremiah 23:9. Isaiah 1:18. Ezekiel 18:20. James 2:23. Genesis 12:1-3. Jeremiah 23:6. Hebrew 5:13.1Corinthians 15:34. Malachi 1:11.
Proverb 30:4?!.6. Philippians 2:6-7?!. Don't cry of loud. Job 12:4. When you tell me that you love me?!.:Psalms 144:9. Hebreo 4:12.:Bituing walang ningning.
You can't use the Bible to prove that the Bible is right...now can you? It would be like me saying that I'm right because I wrote that I'm right, and if you don't believe me, you're just a confused person who can't see the truth. @@britanikothegreat8513
@@britanikothegreat8513 Gjjlmiopjenbjkhzukjldjplhjdhjihyuhb 304:572.
00:56:21
An "atheist agnostic" does not exist. It's a contradiction of terms. You cannot simultaneously agree with the atheist proposition that gods do not exist AND withhold judgment on the issue.
Please stop pandering to the philosophical illiteracy of Dullardhunty and Ra.
{:o:O:}
Why do you mean "God". Are you talking about Bible God? Or, are you using the word "God" as a substitute for something you don't understand? Because, the God of the Bible does not exist. Is there a conscious supreme being? No one knows.
No, it didn't a contradiction. He's explained before that agnostic atheism means that one doesn't not *believe* that any deity exists, but he takes the stance that it's not possible for one to *know* that a deity does not exist.
Why? Are you voting Republican again? 😂
He has never mentioned his political stance.
This is the first time I've really noticed that Bart might be experiencing cognitive decline. He seems to have trouble finishing thoughts and sentences.
I think you’re mistaken.
You'll need to explain how you came to that conclusion.
Didn’t notice this at all.
That has nothing to do with “decline”. Most people have times where they talk like that, even those who deny it, and the degree varies with the situation, for reasons not related to cognitive weakness or anything like that. It’s also very disrespectful to pop up here with a comment like that about a person.