For some reason, the most amusing thing about him is how he quite literally refuses to elaborate. Compared to how normal people deny some request - by wiggling, making excuses, apologizing he's just like - "No." and that's it. Funny to me for some reason
As someone who does. This is pretty on point except for the "his own mess" part Jergal he stepped down because he knew the three would be their own doom. It was the path of least resistance to their initial self-inflicted downfall. Though it may be that he could not see the second sundering as the Tablets of Fate that maintain the balance of the realm-space were destroyed by AO a higher power that exists and operates outside of all that is written. Such an act would be beyond Jergal's comprehension. I would be surprised if he doesn't bear some resentment of AO for that act.
I believe the question about a skeleton not being able to talk is a shout out to the original Divine Divinity, in one of the first dungeons there are two skeletons chatting who suddenly realise they shouldn't be able to talk, have an existential crisis and collapse in a pile of bones, it's one of the funniest moments I've seen in a CRPG.
I love how Jergal is basically like "I gave you three numbskulls my job so I could retire in peace, but you're so horribly inept at it" when talking to the dead three.
Hi, Old man here, 35+ years of DMing and I have played pretty much all the previous D&D computer games. (huge massive spoilers and history lesson) This is a good assessment of information available in BG3 - and I think you are almost right. You young man are missing some important data, from previous times. And when you have read this you will love larian even more. In my opinion BG3 is not only a sequel to Baldurs gate 2 but also a lore sequel to Neverwinter knights 2 and its expansion Mask of the betrayer(MOTB), and even a sequel to the ANCIENT game eye of the beholder (one of the first D&D computer games) The Emperor's location on the astral realm is actually a previous location from MOTB. It is the corpse of Myrkul, even a dead god has a corpse on the astral. According to my understanding of what happens in the fugue plane in MOTB withers is actually not jergal himself, rather a split off aspect of the god, a divine shard that imbues an undying chosen. Further more the hand behind this is kelemvor - whom after the events of MOTB chose to take a role in finding a solution to the wall of the faithless - and what happens to souls who do not have a patron god. now on to really old times: eye of the beholder. it is revealed here that mind flayers (and other aberrations such as beholders) are not from another plane, they are from another crystal sphere - another universe entirely - outside of AO's control. Even the gods don't know IF they have souls, or where those souls go and mortal becoming aberrations is essentially theft from the total balance of the universe (all planes, life and death). Thanks for reading, and thanks to larian for making this old git happy and giving me a sequel I waited 20+ years for!
Larian really did their homework when it came to BG3. A real shame that they wont make BG4, probably because of IRL VG politics rather than desire or ability to do it justice. Its sad that BG3 will be the outlier rather than the shining example of gaming.
@@Sirfinchyyy yep, hasbro are greedy sods that hate their customer base. D&D setting is great and all that - though the rules mechanics are mediocre. I trust larian to make a good game in their own setting with their own ruleset, and more power to them I say as Hasbro seem determined to ruin D&D by massive over monetization ever since they bought out TSR,
Don't know it's a kid who went through alot and withers sends her a way at danger immediately. Sounds like Arebela should have remained at camp like Yenna
@@nicbahtin4774 He gave her a new purpose in life, and if you do her questline right, by the end she looks happier and more ready to take on the future than ever. She accepted her parents' death instead of being depressed and lost for years like any other kid would. Without Withers, none of this could have happened, most likely.
@@fabiof.8152 I don't know finding her in a sewer surrounded by dead bodies doesn't exactly inspire confidence. It's one of these things that feels the game rushed and didn't complete.
@@nicbahtin4774 It isn't meant to inspire confidence in you the player, hence why the last option of things you can ask her right before you leave is "what's the deal with the dead bodies at your feet?" in a rather concerned tone, but she shows just how much more confident *she* is as a reply. She tells you that she dealt with the bandits herself easily, and only after they attacked her first. Clearly showing that she is alright, and will be alright- which she is, even by the end when the netherbrain wrecks the city, and she shows up to help you with the final boss fight, and all of that with a confident smile. Not something a lost little girl still crying over her dead parents would do. I agree that it would have been better to expand a lot more on her journey without us, but in terms of the final result of it, I really don't see how that is a negative compared to her staying in camp.
@@fabiof.8152 i mean her story just ends. it's part of a bigger problem with act 3 not finished and the game ends abruptly. there is no slides like in your typical CRPG about the fate of every minor character. there's an example of this story done right of a kid in pathfinder wrath of the righteous called Xorges you save in act 4 who is very special and has incredible power not unlike Arabella. if you help him he participates in the finale battle and gets an ending slide. he joins the pathfinder organization. you also don't send him to some hole in the ground he stays in your camp at first with other people you rescued and fights when it is attacked. only then he leaves but his around not completely gone until the finale battle.
Something worth noting about Jergal - When he dumped a bunch of his work onto the dead three, he kept some of it as a primordial god can't really retire. They were never a lesser being, so can't downgrade themselves. The divine portfolios he kept? Runes and FATE. Remaining in control of fate matters, as it also gives him a means to move against the lunatics he gave his powers to. It's such an absurdly powerful portfolio, ranking right up there with Tyranny, Fear, and Death. (Bhaal did not manage to claim even one of Jergal's top portfolios.)
Hey now that is my characters dad you are bad mouthing there (Bhaal I am playing as The Dark Urge)jokes aside, of the three he seems like the most useless but I know next to nothing about any DnD lore
@@Joyful_Traitor I looked it up just because I'm unfamiliar with the dead 3 gods as well, and Bhaal is more of a deity that works under Bane. From what I've gathered, the three seem to somewhat balance each other in a fucked up sense. Bane allows the strong and tyrannical to rule, which results in Bhaal getting to kill whoever is in his way and Myrkul is allowed to claim lordship over the dead. There's a quote I saw from Bhaal in the forgotten realms lore that makes him more of a threat compared to the other two. It essentially went like this: "I can kill everyone in Bane's kingdom, or I can simply still my hand and stop Myrkul from obtaining more followers." Bhaal basically has the joy of being necessary for the two while also being feared by them.
Gods in D&D have the ability to project their power into an "Avatar" sort of a physical manifestation of them in the material plane that makes it possible for them to interact directly with mortals without leaving the safety of their own divine plane. withers is almost certainly such an Avatar, rather than [SPOILER] in the flesh or a resurrected mummy/zombie he talks through. also something you've missed is that withers casts "True Resurrection" (a level 9 necromancy spell with very few limitations including not needing the body of the deceased) rather than revivify (lvl 3) or raise dead which would be the resurrection spells within the level gap of BG3 further hinting at his probably divine status.
And if you attack a companion during the epilogue I believe he casts the Gate spell (another 9th level spell) which sends the target to another plane of existance precisely where the caster wants.
Technically you CAN get True Resurrection as a scroll ingame, through a Gale storyline if he dies. Unfortunately as far as I can tell it only works like revivify in game, though :(
@@kaliek5281 it works like Withers' true resurrection. Full health, full class resources, full spell slots. The funky thing is you CAN use a bog standard revivify on Gale, and it'll still work. The True Resurrection scroll is likely done by him as a means of basically ensuring that the resurrection works
I genuinely hope they never elaborate on Arabella, it makes the world feel more alive by having her go off and do her own adventures. Who knows, maybe in some future rulebook we'll get a line about a Tiefling wizard on the sword coast with ties to the former god of the dead
@@alexwang3282 She could also be a Druid, her first spell we see is most likely Entangle, which is a Druid spell. Plus she said she "got" her magic after stealing the Sylvanis Idol. Maybe she'll serve as a teaser for a new Sorcerer subclass though, so who knows...
My theory is that since she has the power of the decaying forest she might become another god of death in the future maybe the god of natural death or something idk
My apologies for pointing this out, but I believe that you forgot about one of the Dark Urge endings involving Withers. If you accept being Bhaal's chosen yet choose to kill the elder brain, you can have your character end their own life brutally in defiance of Bhaal and perhaps sparing the lives that the urge would have taken. After this, a cut scene shows of your character in presumably the fuge plane, and Withers appearing. He tells you that death won't be the end for you, and that your services are yet needed in the land of the living. Then it cuts to the epilogue of Withers roasting the Dead Three. This further suggests that he is Jergal, and that the Dark Urge at least may have more in store for them post game... Maybe even in the next game if those who made BG4 will it.
I like watching Sam at the gym because it makes the time go by so fast. Just beware that when the video ends, all the fatigue you were able to ignore will hit you all at once.
@@chinaman1 Well, don't tell him I do that too. Me and the others have a hard enough time not making ourselves too obvious when we are jockeying for the best vantage point to look from.
If you end the game as a mind flayer and romanced Minthara, you have the option to murderize the people at the party he throws in the end. At that point Withers will interfere and throw you out, making a remark that he will not let you ruin his party.
@@roaringthunder8069I just saw that kelemvor got a little bit special treatment. It was like "You're a cleric of kelemvor, everyone of you knows me", something like that.
It's something closer to Tav asking Withers, "You seem familiar. Do I know you?" and Withers responding "Yes, but not in the way you think." very mysterious! @@azrulashraf00
Milil was the god of music in the Forgotten Realms. Not more familiar with more current lore, he apparently got killed or depowered more recently. He is all huffy at the party because he was the god of music and now has to play the equivalent of a kid's birthday party. He feels its so beneath him.
The thing where the Dead Three denied the gods souls, the reason Withers/Jergal called them fools for and said, "did you think the gods wouldn't notice?" Is, in my opinion, him answering your point of denying god's souls. Yeah, their plans wouldn't even need to wait until the Dead Three turned on themselves. Literally, gods have been interfering in the Dead Three's plans. Hence Gale and hence Withers. I think what Withers mean is that, the Dead Three think they can stealthily and in secrets, deny souls to gods, but the moment they did, it immediately notified the gods, hence the events of Baldur's Gate 3.
What’s crazy is the dead three had a contest where they bowled against each other in order to decide who got to pick first when choosing from Jergal’s divine portfolio.
@@courier6960 It was the bowling contest first but a random deity interfered hoping to get some of Jergal's power. Causing Jergal to basically say "screw it, let's just make it a game of chance". What crazier is that for the bowling game Jergal casually ripped off the heads of the 3 most powerful Liches that served him to be the balls, and then ripped off his own fingers for the game of knuckle bones.
@@HanyaPanya444 Was that a novel? I know the Avatar series covers Cyric and others against the Dead three and others. But those three assholes grabbing power sounds fun.
I found out that if you choose cleric as a class and the god of death as your diety you can actually do a wisdom check then a religion check to get a slight maybe answer from withers, he will even commend you on your efforts to reveal him.
Now, that Larian confirmed they're adding new endings specifically for evil runs in patch 7, I wonder if any will be connected to Jergal. After all, in one of the teases we can clearly see the Dark Urge walking around the domain of Bhaal, presumably at the end of all time (as written in Sarevok's journey)
The deletion of souls via the absolute destroys a thread in the tapestry of fate. If you look at The Balance as the entity that controls the entirety of this sphere these petty gods were breaking the cycle that The Balance designed and so it sent the most powerful aspect in its service to deal with the issue. It is likely Ao who Jergal is working for since he is "The Overgod" and "the Realmsian embodiment of The Balance".
My only issue with this theory is that that isn't normally how Ao operates. Ao 'sending' Jergal anywhere just doesn't feel right. There are a couple gods Ao delegates to directly--Helm and Tyr, for instance--but I never got the impression that Jergal was ever one of his direct lieutenants in the way that Tyr and Helm are. Tyr was blinded for failing to notice the theft of the Tablets of Fate (indicating that Ao had expectations of Tyr that he didn't have of the other gods) and Helm was charged with preventing any of the gods from returning to their home planes. And Jergal? Nobody knows. Doesn't seem like he was even an afterthought to Ao. I use the Time of Troubles specifically as a barometer because Ao was so hands-off prior to the Time of Troubles that mortals weren't even aware he existed; so, if Ao had the kind of relationship with a god that Ao would've given that god a specific job, we'd have heard about it before it. I think, anyway.
This is exactly what I've been saying about the no souls illithid theory. In 3.5, there were texts to support the theory that they do still have souls, just not any form thats natural to this realm and their souls go to the alien gods they may or may not worship on their own plane, nothing the current gods are familiar with or understand. But most of those texts are considered non Canon now.
I theorized on my first playthrough that Withers is actually Jergal, the god the Dead Three made a deal with to become the deities they are now. This is basically only based on his being death-centric, and the way he mocks the Dead Three in the post credit scene. I’m sure that’s wrong, but I can’t wait to watch this video and figure it out. Edit: NO FUCKING WAY I WAS RIGHT
Haha, play through the temple again. EVERYTHING there is basically screaming at players that Withers is Jergal. Noticed nothing during my first playthrough, noticed about 600 easter eggs the second. It's almost like Larian was screaming it at us. I just thought he was 'flavor' at first, just a gameplay system disguised as a character.
The reason he mocks the Dead Three at the end credits is because of what they did during the Spellplague, during the time of troubles, and the countless times they were responsible for trying to usurp Ao the overseer. Basically these 3 even after becoming greater deities, then quasi- deities, and then barely demigods. Always sought more power even though they were already gods. His mockery of them was because they "Just" were never truly satisfied with the power they already had. Ambition as "Gale" put it.
I knew and screamed my death gods name when I first started playing. entered the crypt and saw the scroll in the skull on the wall. JERGAL I proclaimed then after the skele' fight, Withers came from the tomb. JERGAL'S CHAMPION I called. no... Jergal himself.
Great video. I realized that he was Jergal quite quickly in my own playthrough, but was never able to grasp his exact motivations. Your video explained a lot of things for me, thanks.
I feel the need to point out that the Second Sundering was an event that happened very recently in Forgotten Realms D&D lore, like a decade before Baldur's Gate 3. 2:21 That book there lists the names of gods that have been deceased over the past century, and the last three unreadable names sitting so close together are Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul who have died more than a century before Baldur's Gate 3. To those who are curious, I'm going to explain how these three gods died. (Bhaal): 124 years before Baldur's Gate 3 and 10 years before Baldur's Gate 1, Bhaal died during a world shaking event known as the Time of Troubles, when the overgod Ao forced every deity known in the Forgotten Realms (except Helm) to walk around Faerun as mortals because Bane and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, thinking they could control the fate of mortals with said tablets, but they had no clue that the tablets don't do that. Ao, not knowing Bane and Myrkul were responsible for the theft of the Tablets, punished every god and goddess by forcing them to be mortals. Bhaal was killed by a mortal man named Cyric, who would eventually become a god himself and take over as the god of murder for the next 110 years until Bhaal's revival. In the lore told in Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Bhaal figured out a decade before the Time of Troubles that he will become mortal and be killed by Cyric from someone who can predict the future, so Bhaal prepared a contingency plan: creating his mortal children, the Bhaalspawn. He created an unknown number of lesser Bhaalspawn by walking around Faerun in his avatar knocking up females of almost every race. Baldur's Gate 3 lore states he created The Dark Urge by himself with no sexual activities with anybody. His plan was when his mortal children become old enough, like early to mid 20's, they will be manipulated into killing each other (The Dark Urge was to have no involvement in this, Bhaal had different plans for Durge), and the portions of his godly energy that they borrow until their deaths will bring him back. Bhaal was killed by Cyric on Boareskyr Bridge, which is north from the city Baldur's Gate. Unfortunately for Bhaal, the actions of one of his mortal children known as Gorion's Ward (Gorion was a former Harper who adopted the BG1 and BG2 protagonist) delayed his revival for 110 years, until 10 or 11 years before Baldur's Gate 3, during the beginning of the Second Sundering, Bhaal was revived because his last two living lesser mortal children, two humans that aged very slowly because of Bhaal's essence in their bodies, Abdel and Viekang killed each other. (Myrkul): Myrkul's avatar was destroyed by the mortal woman who goes by the nickname Midnight who eventually became the new Mystra. He was restored during the Second Sundering. (Bane): The god of tyranny and strife was killed by Torm, the the patron deity of paladins near a city called Tantras which is far east from Baldur's Gate, during the Time of Troubles. But a decade before his death, he had a son named Iyachtu Xvim, who was a cambion like Raphael. Like Bhaal's mortal sons and daughters, Iyachtu Xvim inherited some of Bane's powers for his revival after his death. In the year the events of the Neverwinter Nights game happened, Xvim with the Red Wizard who specializes in necromancy, Szass Tam (who had not conquered Thay yet), and Bane's Chosen, Fzoul Chembryl conducted a ritual that brought Bane back. So basically Bane was revived long before Bhaal and Myrkul were during the Second Sundering. I forgot to mention that the Second Sundering was meant to undo the damages the Time of Troubles and Spellplague have caused to the Forgotten Realms. Ao has brand new Tablets of Fate now.
Bane also managed to make his way into other world of the prime Material plane (The 4th ed world Nentir Vale is on) and went on a tear in the outer planes, somehow subsuming other Lawful Evil gods like Maglubiyet, at least as far as they were able to manifest on Nentir Vale's prime.
@@DIEGhostfish You don’t get to retire from godhood. One is either a god or not, and he’s not anymore, nor can he become one again unless he takes out Kelemvor. Not happening.
I know nothing about DnD outside BG3 so I’m just saying this theory out of my experience from the game. I think withers makes the player his chosen and as his chosen he offers advice and resurrects as needed. The only thing he asks in return is to be able to observe the journey.
He's saying you're more powerful than an average human, but no more powerful than you were before, He's claiming rights to your soul and putting you back together, you're not immortal, but you will not die simply due to a lack of substance
I have hope Larian will eventually come back for a BG4 it might be years and years from but i fully believe it will happen. While it is true they have moved on to new projects and have no further big plans for BG3 I believe that they said they were dropping the IP that way it would force wizards of the coast to come to them and beg them to do another Baldur's Gate giving them full creative control of the next project. It's a power play 100%.
AO would 100% not get involved with this petty level of mortal affairs; the only reason we even know about him is the Time of Troubles and that was the first and last time mortals had any interaction with him and he was not there for their sake but to reestablish the deific balance that the gods had destroyed.
@@SamBram Yes. There were older datamined files from EA. It suggests that Helm is the one who told him to do it to make up for his mistake of releasing the Dead Three upon the world...now that does not make much sense but the files DID exist...so there's that.
@@spellandshield I guess the line could be a remnant from an earlier version of the game. I read briefly about the datamined Helm stuff when researching this video but decided not to mention it since it didn't fit with the clues found in the game and at a guess was ultimately rewritten. I don't know a tonne about Helm though, just the basic character Dossier stuff but if you're thinking along the same lines then that makes me more confident haha. I guess that line will just have to remain a bit of a mystery. For now...
I suppose this could also be foreshadowing of future content (not from Larian) ... games, novels, source books. While Ao does not care about mortals, he does care about gods, so he might have dispatched Withers/Jergal as the first move in an extended plan to depose the Three and pass along the portfolio to yet someone else. Pure speculation, of course.
Man, this video is great. So glad I watched it. I have played through BG3 like 4-5 times and the context about the dead 3 keeping souls from the other gods was totally lost on me the whole time. Whithers and the whole setup has brought new life into the story for me. Thanks.
If you have sought company that cold, lonely night, Withers would butt in with a "reminder" that all pleasures of the flesh are temporary and hold no true value... or something... The guy has no notion of personal boundaries whatsoever. Absolutely fantastic character in both, concept and execution.
Remember that in time all becomes dust and bone he says BUT if you have no romanced companion he will say something about not seeking the comfort of others, no matter what you answer as excuse or dismissal he will retort: Yet thou art alone. There is NO pleasing the guy with your sex life
The amount of lore imbued and scattered throughout such an already amazing game just makes me love BG3 and Larian studios even more. I cannot fathom the amount of painstaking care taken to fit so much of a world's history into an experience that already has so much to offer that it would likely go over the heads of a majority of their playerbase.
It was a real pleasure meeting Jergal in the game ! But I feel that more than just Cyric, we could also have been facing Malak the Beastlord, since he also coveted Jergal's Throne of Bones and tried to compete with the Dead Three for it, only to be deceived by a quite unwilling Final Scribe
Spoiler alert: I called the Jergal connection when i was playing a "redeemed" Dark Urge that rejected Baal's gift. Baal kills you and Withers more or less reveals himself as Jergal and says, "Nope." It also had an interesting prologue when I chose to become a mindflayer (role-playing that I was doing it knowing it'd be sacrificing my soul as penance).
The main reason I did this is because I had played Baldur's gate one. In that game, you learn quite a bit about the history of jergal and the dead three. Now, it wasn't that reasoning, but simply intuition. I knew about Jergal, at all, that's why I guessed such.
I looked it up and apparently Jergal gave up his divinity to the Dead Three1800 years before BG3, which makes me wonder how on earth that Temple of Jergal is in the condition it is in at the start of the game. Did it perhaps magically phase into another dimension or something until Jergal's "return" was needed?
If you play as a Cleric of Kelemvor you get a unique line as well. You can learn the same thing as being a Paladin but he basically says because you are cleric of death there's an understanding between you.
I'm sure someone already comment it (but I'm too lazy to read all comment) but both Cleric and Paladin can "sens" is divine magic. However, Cleric of Kelemvor have special dialogue that tend to confirm Wither is Jergal : first when you meet him in the crypt you can ask something like "You're somewhat familiar...did we meet before ?" and he'll answer that yes, but not in the way we think and that "You walk with death, Child of Kelemvor. In that we unite" (or something like that). Then when you "examine" his divine essence in Camp, you can ask him if he's a Chosen of Kelemvor he'll answer no but that he's happy the player was bless by Kelemvor and that he'll not answer beyond that.
Withers is definitely Jergel. The description shows up on the loading screens I'm game. Original god of death, then kinda turned it over to the dead 3.
I always like Myrkul in Forgotten Realms. In the lore he was probably the best representation of death. He would randomly show up at funerals to remind people despite their class that death takes everyone. He could not be bargained/bartered with, and had a pretty sick sense of humor. Also, he was notorious for having contingency plans to escape his own demise; why I found his death in 3nd edition hard to believe.
Withers is the dungeon master. Hope is the narrator. I thought it was obvious. When you do Hopes quest line and switch to control her, then try to go to camp you hear her narrate that your not allowed to straight from hope's mouth in the narrators voice tone. Its a D&D easter egg for old school fans
He reminds me a lot of Discworld's take on Death Not exactly nice, but definitely kind, with a dry voice and drier humor. A quote from Death as he talks to his boss really feels like it would fit Withers: "What can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the Reaper Man?"
the spear in the temple is called the “watchers guide” he says his main job is too just observe and there are books on life death and resurrection all over his first temple not just the book of dead gods loved this video i think withers is cool definitely my favorite version of a grim reaper
Withers has been my favorite character sinxe day one and even though i also LOVE shadowheart, no one comes close to him. The way he walks and his sound effects are so adorable and his interactions with arabella are so amusing. I wish we had more interactions with him :/ in general i would love to have more withers content. By far the best character in the game imo 🤗
Something that plays into the "balance keeping" part is also that in whiters reunion party youre actually able to kill him... He comes back to life and sends you through a portal, probably into his normal realm where jergal resides. The event is triggered by just attacking him and hell even break his normally calm and collected character, hinting that fate didnt Plan for Tav to try and kill him when the crisis is already over.
Milil actually used to be a god until he wrote a little ditty about Cyric that wasn't very flattering. He got kicked out of the Pantheon then and ended up in the Fugue just fyi. My head canon wants it to be a dirty limerick. :)
Amazing video! So good. For four decades I've been deep in forgotten realms lore, this is so well researched both from the D&D lore perspective and the BG3 perspective. Amazing accomplishment for you!
Very cool vid to answer some questions I had. Another thing of note is in one of the bad Durge endings where you basically become inseperable from Bhaal your character refers to Withers as Godskin, which further suggests between their relationship if Bhaal so easily recognises Jergal
"Thy wheel of fate turns ever to the dark" is a line I have literally never heard from Withers. I only ever hear him say "Fate spins along as it should".
It's an incredible testament to Larian's writing and passion that instead of just giving players just a resurrection mechanic, they not only made it diagetic, but went to incredible lengths to make it consistent with the established (and somewhat niche) lore.
I can't get rid of a thought that Withers is typical avatar of the Master, when he creates NPC to guide the course of the campaign and help with other unique for players stuff, like rebuild your character or resurrect someone :D
There's developer notes in the game files that confirm that he is Jergal himself, and that he was entombed and is now helping the party under the orders of Helm, as punishment or duty for allowing the Dead Three to become gods
Withers was probably sent by Ao. It's not the sort of task Jergal would get involved in of his own volition (Withers says as much right at the start and Jergal was profoundly opposed to ever resurrecting ANYONE in D&D lore), and Ao fits the bill as the only being who could/would order him to visit his services upon the player. Not only that, but Ao typically forbids Gods from becoming directly involved in mortal affairs -- except in cases when Ao is attempting to teach them some lesson about misusing their powers in the past, or raising unworthy mortals to godhood (see the period of time when Ao forced all the gods to walk among mortals in order to learn humility and respect for their positions/responsibilities). This all fits for Jergal, who hand-selected the dead three out of what basically amounts to dissatisfaction with his job and nearly cost Ao's dominion everything several different times now. It makes sense that Ao would force Withers to live among mortals and see the heroes tasked with fixing Jergal's own mistakes through their journey.
Ao would've sent another of the gods in his place to give or enforce orders. During the Time of Troubles, at least, Helm was the god doing Ao's heavy lifting, even going so far as to kill the Goddess of All Magic to enforce Ao's order that none of the gods return to their home planes. He's the boss of bosses, and bosses delegate. The Time of Troubles was not a lesson in humility, per se, but a general punishment for a specific crime--the theft of the Tablets of Fate. After calling the pantheon to account for the theft, nobody came forward, so Ao punished everybody equally. The gods were only allowed to return when the Tablets were return to Ao. Ao might've frowned upon godly intervention in mortal lives, but he certainly didn't actively stop them from doing so--as evidenced by basically all the lore there ever was. In fact, he didn't seem bothered by it at all until the gods' tendency to do whatever they wanted affected him directly (by his Tablet being stolen). The Dead Three were not hand-selected by Jergal. They butchered their way to his throne room and demanded that he hand over his power or be destroyed. He turned out to be okay with that, but he certainly didn't start them on that path. I never got the impression that Ao was the least bit interested in teaching humility. He hands out punishments when the mistakes hit cosmic proportions, but the lore as I understand it does not portray him as much of a teacher or portray him as the type of god to see himself as a teacher.
Interestingly while also in the crypt you can ask Withers "So 'He' has spoken? What 'He" are you talking about?" to which he will say "An arbiter of certain matters. But that is not important now". Then you consider Kelemvor is the judge of the dead, and what's another word for judge? Arbiter. Kelemvor, probably foresaw a great shift in the balance of life and death about to occur and so sent his seneschal (which Withers also refers to himself as) to intervene and help us. Plus in one the mausoleum’s in act three you can find a journal that says "Masked in gold, his skin fine and worn as parchment. Jergal, the death-keeper, the End of Everything. I asked what he needed of me. He asked a simple question: “What is the worth of a single mortal's life?” Pretty much confirms it at that point
Withers is actually just a very tired DM babysitting the party, trying desperately to keep them on track and not dying from their hubris.
For some reason, the most amusing thing about him is how he quite literally refuses to elaborate. Compared to how normal people deny some request - by wiggling, making excuses, apologizing he's just like - "No." and that's it. Funny to me for some reason
Reminds me of Sten from Dragon age: Origins
Withers: "Nay."
>revives people
>refuses to elaborate
Best dialogue I heard with him was with Arabella.
Arabella: "Can I touch your face?"
Withers: *"No."*
Arabella: "you're no fun."
Withers: "No."
”Skeletons aren’t supposed to talk”
Withers: Correct.
”Are you going to elaborate?”
Withers: No.
Me, who has zero DnD knowledge: "yep, that sounds exactly right"
😂😂😂
As someone who does. This is pretty on point except for the "his own mess" part Jergal he stepped down because he knew the three would be their own doom. It was the path of least resistance to their initial self-inflicted downfall. Though it may be that he could not see the second sundering as the Tablets of Fate that maintain the balance of the realm-space were destroyed by AO a higher power that exists and operates outside of all that is written. Such an act would be beyond Jergal's comprehension. I would be surprised if he doesn't bear some resentment of AO for that act.
@@zenivinezp😊l
@@zenivinezi think jergal actually likes the second sundering since it now turns his job to basically just trolling the three idiots
I love how Withers saving the durge is just him going "damn bruh that was badass. you got more gods to kill still, so *get up* ."
I believe the question about a skeleton not being able to talk is a shout out to the original Divine Divinity, in one of the first dungeons there are two skeletons chatting who suddenly realise they shouldn't be able to talk, have an existential crisis and collapse in a pile of bones, it's one of the funniest moments I've seen in a CRPG.
omg classic larian joke
This is canon now.
I love how Jergal is basically like "I gave you three numbskulls my job so I could retire in peace, but you're so horribly inept at it" when talking to the dead three.
"You do not stoke fear by reaping your own fields, but by burning your foes." Is such a badass line.
IKR! straight from the god of tyranny himself.
I love the idea of Jergal trying to pawn off his job on Arabella 😂
Hi, Old man here, 35+ years of DMing and I have played pretty much all the previous D&D computer games. (huge massive spoilers and history lesson)
This is a good assessment of information available in BG3 - and I think you are almost right. You young man are missing some important data, from previous times. And when you have read this you will love larian even more.
In my opinion BG3 is not only a sequel to Baldurs gate 2 but also a lore sequel to Neverwinter knights 2 and its expansion Mask of the betrayer(MOTB), and even a sequel to the ANCIENT game eye of the beholder (one of the first D&D computer games)
The Emperor's location on the astral realm is actually a previous location from MOTB. It is the corpse of Myrkul, even a dead god has a corpse on the astral.
According to my understanding of what happens in the fugue plane in MOTB withers is actually not jergal himself, rather a split off aspect of the god, a divine shard that imbues an undying chosen. Further more the hand behind this is kelemvor - whom after the events of MOTB chose to take a role in finding a solution to the wall of the faithless - and what happens to souls who do not have a patron god.
now on to really old times: eye of the beholder. it is revealed here that mind flayers (and other aberrations such as beholders) are not from another plane, they are from another crystal sphere - another universe entirely - outside of AO's control. Even the gods don't know IF they have souls, or where those souls go and mortal becoming aberrations is essentially theft from the total balance of the universe (all planes, life and death).
Thanks for reading, and thanks to larian for making this old git happy and giving me a sequel I waited 20+ years for!
Damn, thank you for this extra info, ive always wondered whos skeleton it was in the astral realm
Oh my goodness I thought I was the only BG player to remember eye of the beholder! Brought on some dusty memories friend!
@@sharb7320 you are quite welcome!
Larian really did their homework when it came to BG3. A real shame that they wont make BG4, probably because of IRL VG politics rather than desire or ability to do it justice. Its sad that BG3 will be the outlier rather than the shining example of gaming.
@@Sirfinchyyy yep, hasbro are greedy sods that hate their customer base. D&D setting is great and all that - though the rules mechanics are mediocre. I trust larian to make a good game in their own setting with their own ruleset, and more power to them I say as Hasbro seem determined to ruin D&D by massive over monetization ever since they bought out TSR,
The interactions between Arabella and, well, "Bone Man" are one of the most wholesome experience of the game.
Don't know it's a kid who went through alot and withers sends her a way at danger immediately. Sounds like Arebela should have remained at camp like Yenna
@@nicbahtin4774 He gave her a new purpose in life, and if you do her questline right, by the end she looks happier and more ready to take on the future than ever. She accepted her parents' death instead of being depressed and lost for years like any other kid would. Without Withers, none of this could have happened, most likely.
@@fabiof.8152
I don't know finding her in a sewer surrounded by dead bodies doesn't exactly inspire confidence. It's one of these things that feels the game rushed and didn't complete.
@@nicbahtin4774 It isn't meant to inspire confidence in you the player, hence why the last option of things you can ask her right before you leave is "what's the deal with the dead bodies at your feet?" in a rather concerned tone, but she shows just how much more confident *she* is as a reply. She tells you that she dealt with the bandits herself easily, and only after they attacked her first. Clearly showing that she is alright, and will be alright- which she is, even by the end when the netherbrain wrecks the city, and she shows up to help you with the final boss fight, and all of that with a confident smile. Not something a lost little girl still crying over her dead parents would do. I agree that it would have been better to expand a lot more on her journey without us, but in terms of the final result of it, I really don't see how that is a negative compared to her staying in camp.
@@fabiof.8152
i mean her story just ends. it's part of a bigger problem with act 3 not finished and the game ends abruptly. there is no slides like in your typical CRPG about the fate of every minor character. there's an example of this story done right of a kid in pathfinder wrath of the righteous called Xorges you save in act 4 who is very special and has incredible power not unlike Arabella. if you help him he participates in the finale battle and gets an ending slide. he joins the pathfinder organization. you also don't send him to some hole in the ground he stays in your camp at first with other people you rescued and fights when it is attacked. only then he leaves but his around not completely gone until the finale battle.
Something worth noting about Jergal - When he dumped a bunch of his work onto the dead three, he kept some of it as a primordial god can't really retire. They were never a lesser being, so can't downgrade themselves.
The divine portfolios he kept? Runes and FATE. Remaining in control of fate matters, as it also gives him a means to move against the lunatics he gave his powers to. It's such an absurdly powerful portfolio, ranking right up there with Tyranny, Fear, and Death. (Bhaal did not manage to claim even one of Jergal's top portfolios.)
Hey now that is my characters dad you are bad mouthing there (Bhaal I am playing as The Dark Urge)jokes aside, of the three he seems like the most useless but I know next to nothing about any DnD lore
@@Joyful_Traitor I looked it up just because I'm unfamiliar with the dead 3 gods as well, and Bhaal is more of a deity that works under Bane. From what I've gathered, the three seem to somewhat balance each other in a fucked up sense. Bane allows the strong and tyrannical to rule, which results in Bhaal getting to kill whoever is in his way and Myrkul is allowed to claim lordship over the dead.
There's a quote I saw from Bhaal in the forgotten realms lore that makes him more of a threat compared to the other two. It essentially went like this: "I can kill everyone in Bane's kingdom, or I can simply still my hand and stop Myrkul from obtaining more followers." Bhaal basically has the joy of being necessary for the two while also being feared by them.
@@shadowdroid776 Bhaal wouldn't accept a subservient position to Bane. he's pure CE.
I always presumed he was Jergal and the reason he was helping the party was because AO commanded him to clean up his mess he made with the dead 3.
Gods in D&D have the ability to project their power into an "Avatar" sort of a physical manifestation of them in the material plane that makes it possible for them to interact directly with mortals without leaving the safety of their own divine plane. withers is almost certainly such an Avatar, rather than [SPOILER] in the flesh or a resurrected mummy/zombie he talks through.
also something you've missed is that withers casts "True Resurrection" (a level 9 necromancy spell with very few limitations including not needing the body of the deceased) rather than revivify (lvl 3) or raise dead which would be the resurrection spells within the level gap of BG3 further hinting at his probably divine status.
And if you attack a companion during the epilogue I believe he casts the Gate spell (another 9th level spell) which sends the target to another plane of existance precisely where the caster wants.
Technically you CAN get True Resurrection as a scroll ingame, through a Gale storyline if he dies.
Unfortunately as far as I can tell it only works like revivify in game, though :(
Exactly this. I've been convinced from the beginning that Withers is an avatar, not Jergal himself, and certainly not some animated meat puppet.
This is one of, I believe, 3 ninth level spells in BG3. Power word: kill, wish and true resurrection.
@@kaliek5281 it works like Withers' true resurrection. Full health, full class resources, full spell slots.
The funky thing is you CAN use a bog standard revivify on Gale, and it'll still work. The True Resurrection scroll is likely done by him as a means of basically ensuring that the resurrection works
Let's not forget that Kelemvor is not the god of death. He is the god of the balance between life and death. His symbol is literally scales of balance
I fucking love withers, best npc in the game
Hope is better
@@sophiewagner5770 no way 😭😭
@@sirjoesphjoestar8361 ugh, can you imagine what life would be like for us, if we didn’t have a Hope in hell?
@@nancycariker-moon9890 you may be right
I genuinely hope they never elaborate on Arabella, it makes the world feel more alive by having her go off and do her own adventures. Who knows, maybe in some future rulebook we'll get a line about a Tiefling wizard on the sword coast with ties to the former god of the dead
Arabella is most likely a sorcerer. how she describes the way she casts her spells is fitting how a sorcerer uses their power.
@@alexwang3282 She could also be a Druid, her first spell we see is most likely Entangle, which is a Druid spell. Plus she said she "got" her magic after stealing the Sylvanis Idol. Maybe she'll serve as a teaser for a new Sorcerer subclass though, so who knows...
My theory is that since she has the power of the decaying forest she might become another god of death in the future maybe the god of natural death or something idk
Maybe Arabella will become the future scribe of the dead, once she has learned enough.
@@thundertwonk1090 But her acts are more like sorcerer powers. Their innate powers not powers you get from working with nature to help it.
Because he’s just a cool dude
My apologies for pointing this out, but I believe that you forgot about one of the Dark Urge endings involving Withers. If you accept being Bhaal's chosen yet choose to kill the elder brain, you can have your character end their own life brutally in defiance of Bhaal and perhaps sparing the lives that the urge would have taken. After this, a cut scene shows of your character in presumably the fuge plane, and Withers appearing. He tells you that death won't be the end for you, and that your services are yet needed in the land of the living. Then it cuts to the epilogue of Withers roasting the Dead Three. This further suggests that he is Jergal, and that the Dark Urge at least may have more in store for them post game... Maybe even in the next game if those who made BG4 will it.
I like watching Sam at the gym because it makes the time go by so fast. Just beware that when the video ends, all the fatigue you were able to ignore will hit you all at once.
I thought you meant you like watching Sam at the gym. Like staring at him workout at the gym.
@@chinaman1 Well, don't tell him I do that too. Me and the others have a hard enough time not making ourselves too obvious when we are jockeying for the best vantage point to look from.
Lol I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who was like, “why you watching Sam workout?” Followed by, “where do you watch Sam workout?” Lol
niggity toilet
@@joeracer302I literally scrolled through the video to see if there was a full segment of him working out
If you end the game as a mind flayer and romanced Minthara, you have the option to murderize the people at the party he throws in the end. At that point Withers will interfere and throw you out, making a remark that he will not let you ruin his party.
If you play has a cleric of Kelemvor you can get a bit more out of him with a 20 religion check
Or even a warlock of the ancient one.
Clerics get that check in general. At least shadowheart does.
@@roaringthunder8069I just saw that kelemvor got a little bit special treatment. It was like "You're a cleric of kelemvor, everyone of you knows me", something like that.
It's something closer to Tav asking Withers, "You seem familiar. Do I know you?" and Withers responding "Yes, but not in the way you think." very mysterious! @@azrulashraf00
Milil was the god of music in the Forgotten Realms. Not more familiar with more current lore, he apparently got killed or depowered more recently. He is all huffy at the party because he was the god of music and now has to play the equivalent of a kid's birthday party. He feels its so beneath him.
He cheers up if you recognize him
@@DJBVWAor if you pretend to (my paladin failed that roll but succeeded with deception roll)
The thing where the Dead Three denied the gods souls, the reason Withers/Jergal called them fools for and said, "did you think the gods wouldn't notice?" Is, in my opinion, him answering your point of denying god's souls.
Yeah, their plans wouldn't even need to wait until the Dead Three turned on themselves. Literally, gods have been interfering in the Dead Three's plans. Hence Gale and hence Withers.
I think what Withers mean is that, the Dead Three think they can stealthily and in secrets, deny souls to gods, but the moment they did, it immediately notified the gods, hence the events of Baldur's Gate 3.
What’s crazy is the dead three had a contest where they bowled against each other in order to decide who got to pick first when choosing from Jergal’s divine portfolio.
I think the game they played to decide who got what was named “rattle-bones” and I always imagined it was something like liars dice
@@courier6960 That's pretty much correct
@@courier6960 it was 'knucklebones'.
@@courier6960 It was the bowling contest first but a random deity interfered hoping to get some of Jergal's power. Causing Jergal to basically say "screw it, let's just make it a game of chance".
What crazier is that for the bowling game Jergal casually ripped off the heads of the 3 most powerful Liches that served him to be the balls, and then ripped off his own fingers for the game of knuckle bones.
@@HanyaPanya444 Was that a novel? I know the Avatar series covers Cyric and others against the Dead three and others. But those three assholes grabbing power sounds fun.
I haven't seen it myself, but apparently Withers has unique lines for clerics of Kelemvor that strongly hint to him being Jergal too.
Edit: Spelling
I found out that if you choose cleric as a class and the god of death as your diety you can actually do a wisdom check then a religion check to get a slight maybe answer from withers, he will even commend you on your efforts to reveal him.
Now, that Larian confirmed they're adding new endings specifically for evil runs in patch 7, I wonder if any will be connected to Jergal. After all, in one of the teases we can clearly see the Dark Urge walking around the domain of Bhaal, presumably at the end of all time (as written in Sarevok's journey)
Why would Bhaal want the Dark Urge to turn people into illithids? Doesn't he also need souls?
@@sayuas4293 Bhaal just wants the Dark Urge to kill, he doesn't care how he does it. Bhaal's goal is to bring about the end of the world.
The deletion of souls via the absolute destroys a thread in the tapestry of fate. If you look at The Balance as the entity that controls the entirety of this sphere these petty gods were breaking the cycle that The Balance designed and so it sent the most powerful aspect in its service to deal with the issue. It is likely Ao who Jergal is working for since he is "The Overgod" and "the Realmsian embodiment of The Balance".
My only issue with this theory is that that isn't normally how Ao operates. Ao 'sending' Jergal anywhere just doesn't feel right. There are a couple gods Ao delegates to directly--Helm and Tyr, for instance--but I never got the impression that Jergal was ever one of his direct lieutenants in the way that Tyr and Helm are.
Tyr was blinded for failing to notice the theft of the Tablets of Fate (indicating that Ao had expectations of Tyr that he didn't have of the other gods) and Helm was charged with preventing any of the gods from returning to their home planes. And Jergal? Nobody knows. Doesn't seem like he was even an afterthought to Ao. I use the Time of Troubles specifically as a barometer because Ao was so hands-off prior to the Time of Troubles that mortals weren't even aware he existed; so, if Ao had the kind of relationship with a god that Ao would've given that god a specific job, we'd have heard about it before it. I think, anyway.
This is exactly what I've been saying about the no souls illithid theory. In 3.5, there were texts to support the theory that they do still have souls, just not any form thats natural to this realm and their souls go to the alien gods they may or may not worship on their own plane, nothing the current gods are familiar with or understand. But most of those texts are considered non Canon now.
Some other stuff in various editions has mentioned Illithid Petitioners though. WHich are explicitly souls.
I theorized on my first playthrough that Withers is actually Jergal, the god the Dead Three made a deal with to become the deities they are now. This is basically only based on his being death-centric, and the way he mocks the Dead Three in the post credit scene. I’m sure that’s wrong, but I can’t wait to watch this video and figure it out.
Edit: NO FUCKING WAY I WAS RIGHT
Haha, play through the temple again. EVERYTHING there is basically screaming at players that Withers is Jergal. Noticed nothing during my first playthrough, noticed about 600 easter eggs the second. It's almost like Larian was screaming it at us. I just thought he was 'flavor' at first, just a gameplay system disguised as a character.
The reason he mocks the Dead Three at the end credits is because of what they did during the Spellplague, during the time of troubles, and the countless times they were responsible for trying to usurp Ao the overseer. Basically these 3 even after becoming greater deities, then quasi- deities, and then barely demigods. Always sought more power even though they were already gods. His mockery of them was because they "Just" were never truly satisfied with the power they already had. Ambition as "Gale" put it.
I knew and screamed my death gods name when I first started playing. entered the crypt and saw the scroll in the skull on the wall.
JERGAL I proclaimed then after the skele' fight, Withers came from the tomb. JERGAL'S CHAMPION I called. no...
Jergal himself.
you can also steal any gold you pay him and he straight up does not care. you can do it full view and he wont react.
Withers thou goest, I follow
Until I started watching BG Lore videos, in my first BG3 playthrough (I was a Paladin) I thought that Withers was a Chosen of Jergal.
I like the idea of there being these specially prepared and adorned mummies for jergal to inhabit
Great video. I realized that he was Jergal quite quickly in my own playthrough, but was never able to grasp his exact motivations. Your video explained a lot of things for me, thanks.
I feel the need to point out that the Second Sundering was an event that happened very recently in Forgotten Realms D&D lore, like a decade before Baldur's Gate 3. 2:21 That book there lists the names of gods that have been deceased over the past century, and the last three unreadable names sitting so close together are Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul who have died more than a century before Baldur's Gate 3. To those who are curious, I'm going to explain how these three gods died.
(Bhaal): 124 years before Baldur's Gate 3 and 10 years before Baldur's Gate 1, Bhaal died during a world shaking event known as the Time of Troubles, when the overgod Ao forced every deity known in the Forgotten Realms (except Helm) to walk around Faerun as mortals because Bane and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, thinking they could control the fate of mortals with said tablets, but they had no clue that the tablets don't do that. Ao, not knowing Bane and Myrkul were responsible for the theft of the Tablets, punished every god and goddess by forcing them to be mortals. Bhaal was killed by a mortal man named Cyric, who would eventually become a god himself and take over as the god of murder for the next 110 years until Bhaal's revival. In the lore told in Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Bhaal figured out a decade before the Time of Troubles that he will become mortal and be killed by Cyric from someone who can predict the future, so Bhaal prepared a contingency plan: creating his mortal children, the Bhaalspawn. He created an unknown number of lesser Bhaalspawn by walking around Faerun in his avatar knocking up females of almost every race. Baldur's Gate 3 lore states he created The Dark Urge by himself with no sexual activities with anybody. His plan was when his mortal children become old enough, like early to mid 20's, they will be manipulated into killing each other (The Dark Urge was to have no involvement in this, Bhaal had different plans for Durge), and the portions of his godly energy that they borrow until their deaths will bring him back. Bhaal was killed by Cyric on Boareskyr Bridge, which is north from the city Baldur's Gate. Unfortunately for Bhaal, the actions of one of his mortal children known as Gorion's Ward (Gorion was a former Harper who adopted the BG1 and BG2 protagonist) delayed his revival for 110 years, until 10 or 11 years before Baldur's Gate 3, during the beginning of the Second Sundering, Bhaal was revived because his last two living lesser mortal children, two humans that aged very slowly because of Bhaal's essence in their bodies, Abdel and Viekang killed each other.
(Myrkul): Myrkul's avatar was destroyed by the mortal woman who goes by the nickname Midnight who eventually became the new Mystra. He was restored during the Second Sundering.
(Bane): The god of tyranny and strife was killed by Torm, the the patron deity of paladins near a city called Tantras which is far east from Baldur's Gate, during the Time of Troubles. But a decade before his death, he had a son named Iyachtu Xvim, who was a cambion like Raphael. Like Bhaal's mortal sons and daughters, Iyachtu Xvim inherited some of Bane's powers for his revival after his death. In the year the events of the Neverwinter Nights game happened, Xvim with the Red Wizard who specializes in necromancy, Szass Tam (who had not conquered Thay yet), and Bane's Chosen, Fzoul Chembryl conducted a ritual that brought Bane back. So basically Bane was revived long before Bhaal and Myrkul were during the Second Sundering.
I forgot to mention that the Second Sundering was meant to undo the damages the Time of Troubles and Spellplague have caused to the Forgotten Realms. Ao has brand new Tablets of Fate now.
Bane also managed to make his way into other world of the prime Material plane (The 4th ed world Nentir Vale is on) and went on a tear in the outer planes, somehow subsuming other Lawful Evil gods like Maglubiyet, at least as far as they were able to manifest on Nentir Vale's prime.
Ed Greenwood recently confirmed withers to be an avatar of Jergal
Do quasi deities even have avatars?
@@Lonewanderer30 Maybe when they're retired former dieties.
@@DIEGhostfish You don’t get to retire from godhood. One is either a god or not, and he’s not anymore, nor can he become one again unless he takes out Kelemvor. Not happening.
I've been playing through BG1 and I found a book about the dead three and Jergal and I'm completely convinced Withers is Jergal.
It's pretty obvious he's what's left of Jergal.
I know nothing about DnD outside BG3 so I’m just saying this theory out of my experience from the game. I think withers makes the player his chosen and as his chosen he offers advice and resurrects as needed. The only thing he asks in return is to be able to observe the journey.
You've missed the moment when Withers is getting angry if you'll kill at the ending party, still this confirms balance keeping.
He's saying you're more powerful than an average human, but no more powerful than you were before, He's claiming rights to your soul and putting you back together, you're not immortal, but you will not die simply due to a lack of substance
I have hope Larian will eventually come back for a BG4 it might be years and years from but i fully believe it will happen. While it is true they have moved on to new projects and have no further big plans for BG3 I believe that they said they were dropping the IP that way it would force wizards of the coast to come to them and beg them to do another Baldur's Gate giving them full creative control of the next project. It's a power play 100%.
i missed withers my first playthrough somehow. He just showed up at camp one day and i had to roll with it.
Seeing kagha threaten that poor child Arabella made me furious I went through every last effort required to prove what she was
AO would 100% not get involved with this petty level of mortal affairs; the only reason we even know about him is the Time of Troubles and that was the first and last time mortals had any interaction with him and he was not there for their sake but to reestablish the deific balance that the gods had destroyed.
That's fair and thank you for clarifying. Definitely not the 'he' that Withers spoke of then. Any ideas for other candidates?
@@SamBram Yes. There were older datamined files from EA. It suggests that Helm is the one who told him to do it to make up for his mistake of releasing the Dead Three upon the world...now that does not make much sense but the files DID exist...so there's that.
@@spellandshield I guess the line could be a remnant from an earlier version of the game. I read briefly about the datamined Helm stuff when researching this video but decided not to mention it since it didn't fit with the clues found in the game and at a guess was ultimately rewritten. I don't know a tonne about Helm though, just the basic character Dossier stuff but if you're thinking along the same lines then that makes me more confident haha. I guess that line will just have to remain a bit of a mystery. For now...
@@SamBram It is weird and does not fit, lorewise. Helm has no authority over Jergal but BG3 does break a lot of rules.
I suppose this could also be foreshadowing of future content (not from Larian) ... games, novels, source books. While Ao does not care about mortals, he does care about gods, so he might have dispatched Withers/Jergal as the first move in an extended plan to depose the Three and pass along the portfolio to yet someone else. Pure speculation, of course.
WELL Jergal wasn't really bored over his position. He enacted a plan, and it's very complex. You can look it up in the lore.
Man, this video is great. So glad I watched it. I have played through BG3 like 4-5 times and the context about the dead 3 keeping souls from the other gods was totally lost on me the whole time. Whithers and the whole setup has brought new life into the story for me. Thanks.
If you have sought company that cold, lonely night, Withers would butt in with a "reminder" that all pleasures of the flesh are temporary and hold no true value... or something... The guy has no notion of personal boundaries whatsoever. Absolutely fantastic character in both, concept and execution.
He calls them a “bosom companion” 💀
Remember that in time all becomes dust and bone he says BUT if you have no romanced companion he will say something about not seeking the comfort of others, no matter what you answer as excuse or dismissal he will retort: Yet thou art alone.
There is NO pleasing the guy with your sex life
@@mahmud7645 Neh, the guy is clearly bored. The fact that he actually butts-in I find hilarious.
I call him Grandpa Withers. Indirectly he's kind of that to my Durge. Particularly after being redeemed. Lol
It felt so appropriate as resist durge to respec from sorcerer to great old one warlock after the orin fight.
The amount of lore imbued and scattered throughout such an already amazing game just makes me love BG3 and Larian studios even more. I cannot fathom the amount of painstaking care taken to fit so much of a world's history into an experience that already has so much to offer that it would likely go over the heads of a majority of their playerbase.
It was a real pleasure meeting Jergal in the game ! But I feel that more than just Cyric, we could also have been facing Malak the Beastlord, since he also coveted Jergal's Throne of Bones and tried to compete with the Dead Three for it, only to be deceived by a quite unwilling Final Scribe
Spoiler alert:
I called the Jergal connection when i was playing a "redeemed" Dark Urge that rejected Baal's gift. Baal kills you and Withers more or less reveals himself as Jergal and says, "Nope."
It also had an interesting prologue when I chose to become a mindflayer (role-playing that I was doing it knowing it'd be sacrificing my soul as penance).
I noticed when my Cleric of Kelemvor had his first interaction with Withers. I suspected Jergal shenanigans from the start.
@@LoreFoundry Yeah, that "redeemed" was a Paladin, so I also passed the Divinity check on Withers, but wasn't certain until that later scene.
I called the Jergal connection literally the moment he crawled out of the coffin, during early access.
The main reason I did this is because I had played Baldur's gate one.
In that game, you learn quite a bit about the history of jergal and the dead three.
Now, it wasn't that reasoning, but simply intuition. I knew about Jergal, at all, that's why I guessed such.
I looked it up and apparently Jergal gave up his divinity to the Dead Three1800 years before BG3, which makes me wonder how on earth that Temple of Jergal is in the condition it is in at the start of the game. Did it perhaps magically phase into another dimension or something until Jergal's "return" was needed?
If you play as a Cleric of Kelemvor you get a unique line as well. You can learn the same thing as being a Paladin but he basically says because you are cleric of death there's an understanding between you.
Fun fact: all the books in the dungeon you find withers are about the party and future events.
I'm sure someone already comment it (but I'm too lazy to read all comment) but both Cleric and Paladin can "sens" is divine magic. However, Cleric of Kelemvor have special dialogue that tend to confirm Wither is Jergal : first when you meet him in the crypt you can ask something like "You're somewhat familiar...did we meet before ?" and he'll answer that yes, but not in the way we think and that "You walk with death, Child of Kelemvor. In that we unite" (or something like that). Then when you "examine" his divine essence in Camp, you can ask him if he's a Chosen of Kelemvor he'll answer no but that he's happy the player was bless by Kelemvor and that he'll not answer beyond that.
Bruh, he's the accountant who cooks the books when you slip him a Benjamin.
29:52 Ah, that reminded me of spell divine intervention. Though, far less extraordinary...
6:19 I don't know if it was a bug, but I went to Withers to respec a hireling and he called himself maidenless 💀
This is why I love Jergal. He doesn't represent the evil side of death. He sees it as a new beginning for that soul. Jergal life and death equally.
hope tara, mrs. dekarios and withers have fun at their next tea party :]
I do enjoy Withers’ dry sense of humor. ☺️
Withers is definitely Jergel. The description shows up on the loading screens I'm game. Original god of death, then kinda turned it over to the dead 3.
As far as Arabella goes, dnd gods can take chosens. I feel like Arabella is Withers's chosen.
Withers had a good joke for me after I beat the game, remarking that I made Karlach carry all my loot.
the fact that this god that can bring dead people to life nonchalantly engages in conversation with a random child is hilarious
Yo! New Sam content, and it's BG3! Fucking awesome! Thanks for all your hard work dude!
Gonna be one of the best videos on the topic on CZcams. Good job and well done.
Much appreciated. Thank you :)
I'd come to realize Withers was something far more than he initially appeared but wasn't sure what. This video pretty well explains it.
nice analysis! Withers is a really complex character
I watched the game twice, once a solo walkthrough, and another a normal one. and still its this dude that piques my interest the most.
I always interpreted "this is the price of balance" as the devs speaking to the player.
I always like Myrkul in Forgotten Realms. In the lore he was probably the best representation of death. He would randomly show up at funerals to remind people despite their class that death takes everyone. He could not be bargained/bartered with, and had a pretty sick sense of humor. Also, he was notorious for having contingency plans to escape his own demise; why I found his death in 3nd edition hard to believe.
Withers is the dungeon master. Hope is the narrator. I thought it was obvious. When you do Hopes quest line and switch to control her, then try to go to camp you hear her narrate that your not allowed to straight from hope's mouth in the narrators voice tone. Its a D&D easter egg for old school fans
He reminds me a lot of Discworld's take on Death
Not exactly nice, but definitely kind, with a dry voice and drier humor.
A quote from Death as he talks to his boss really feels like it would fit Withers:
"What can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the Reaper Man?"
the spear in the temple is called the “watchers guide” he says his main job is too just observe and there are books on life death and resurrection all over his first temple not just the book of dead gods loved this video i think withers is cool definitely my favorite version of a grim reaper
Withers has been my favorite character sinxe day one and even though i also LOVE shadowheart, no one comes close to him. The way he walks and his sound effects are so adorable and his interactions with arabella are so amusing. I wish we had more interactions with him :/ in general i would love to have more withers content. By far the best character in the game imo 🤗
Something that plays into the "balance keeping" part is also that in whiters reunion party youre actually able to kill him... He comes back to life and sends you through a portal, probably into his normal realm where jergal resides. The event is triggered by just attacking him and hell even break his normally calm and collected character, hinting that fate didnt Plan for Tav to try and kill him when the crisis is already over.
Milil actually used to be a god until he wrote a little ditty about Cyric that wasn't very flattering. He got kicked out of the Pantheon then and ended up in the Fugue just fyi. My head canon wants it to be a dirty limerick. :)
Amazing video! So good. For four decades I've been deep in forgotten realms lore, this is so well researched both from the D&D lore perspective and the BG3 perspective. Amazing accomplishment for you!
Thank you, that means a lot! I was very careful with fact checking pretty much every sentence and it took a while so this is really nice to hear
Very cool vid to answer some questions I had. Another thing of note is in one of the bad Durge endings where you basically become inseperable from Bhaal your character refers to Withers as Godskin, which further suggests between their relationship if Bhaal so easily recognises Jergal
This is a deep dive I never knew I needed. Fantasticly done man!!!!
HE is a reference to The Wise Alando, from the original BG games and Faerunian lore.
- Rise from the dead
- Speak a clue
- Refuse to elaborate
- leave
what a chad
"Thy wheel of fate turns ever to the dark" is a line I have literally never heard from Withers. I only ever hear him say "Fate spins along as it should".
He says this line to Durge after they kill Alfira
It's an incredible testament to Larian's writing and passion that instead of just giving players just a resurrection mechanic, they not only made it diagetic, but went to incredible lengths to make it consistent with the established (and somewhat niche) lore.
31:20 So you’re telling me the reason Withers is helping us, is basically the gods forced Withers to get therapy?
Ohh all your videos are good Sam! I was getting tired of Cyberpunk and was pleasantly surprised to see you do a BG3 lore video. Keep them coming!
I can't get rid of a thought that Withers is typical avatar of the Master, when he creates NPC to guide the course of the campaign and help with other unique for players stuff, like rebuild your character or resurrect someone :D
Withers is a chosen of Jergal. If you're playing a dark urge you can sense it on him.
There's developer notes in the game files that confirm that he is Jergal himself, and that he was entombed and is now helping the party under the orders of Helm, as punishment or duty for allowing the Dead Three to become gods
Withers was probably sent by Ao. It's not the sort of task Jergal would get involved in of his own volition (Withers says as much right at the start and Jergal was profoundly opposed to ever resurrecting ANYONE in D&D lore), and Ao fits the bill as the only being who could/would order him to visit his services upon the player. Not only that, but Ao typically forbids Gods from becoming directly involved in mortal affairs -- except in cases when Ao is attempting to teach them some lesson about misusing their powers in the past, or raising unworthy mortals to godhood (see the period of time when Ao forced all the gods to walk among mortals in order to learn humility and respect for their positions/responsibilities). This all fits for Jergal, who hand-selected the dead three out of what basically amounts to dissatisfaction with his job and nearly cost Ao's dominion everything several different times now. It makes sense that Ao would force Withers to live among mortals and see the heroes tasked with fixing Jergal's own mistakes through their journey.
Ao would've sent another of the gods in his place to give or enforce orders. During the Time of Troubles, at least, Helm was the god doing Ao's heavy lifting, even going so far as to kill the Goddess of All Magic to enforce Ao's order that none of the gods return to their home planes. He's the boss of bosses, and bosses delegate.
The Time of Troubles was not a lesson in humility, per se, but a general punishment for a specific crime--the theft of the Tablets of Fate. After calling the pantheon to account for the theft, nobody came forward, so Ao punished everybody equally. The gods were only allowed to return when the Tablets were return to Ao. Ao might've frowned upon godly intervention in mortal lives, but he certainly didn't actively stop them from doing so--as evidenced by basically all the lore there ever was. In fact, he didn't seem bothered by it at all until the gods' tendency to do whatever they wanted affected him directly (by his Tablet being stolen).
The Dead Three were not hand-selected by Jergal. They butchered their way to his throne room and demanded that he hand over his power or be destroyed. He turned out to be okay with that, but he certainly didn't start them on that path.
I never got the impression that Ao was the least bit interested in teaching humility. He hands out punishments when the mistakes hit cosmic proportions, but the lore as I understand it does not portray him as much of a teacher or portray him as the type of god to see himself as a teacher.
Withers: DO NOT WORSHIP ME! I am merely a vending machine for resurrection and hiring services. You give me money and i give you service.
I love Jergal so much, bearing such a terrifying name yet so chill, so calm, or maybe I just love gods of death whose alignment is neutral.
I love him. Always calm, respectful and properly articulated. And I respec a lot. He's my MVP.
Withers, the Great Equaliser😂
Interestingly while also in the crypt you can ask Withers "So 'He' has spoken? What 'He" are you talking about?" to which he will say "An arbiter of certain matters. But that is not important now". Then you consider Kelemvor is the judge of the dead, and what's another word for judge? Arbiter. Kelemvor, probably foresaw a great shift in the balance of life and death about to occur and so sent his seneschal (which Withers also refers to himself as) to intervene and help us.
Plus in one the mausoleum’s in act three you can find a journal that says "Masked in gold, his skin fine and worn as parchment. Jergal, the death-keeper, the End of Everything. I asked what he needed of me. He asked a simple question: “What is the worth of a single mortal's life?”
Pretty much confirms it at that point