Part One: The Jordan Peterson Episode | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
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Part One: The Jordan Peterson Episode | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert is joined by Cody Johnston to discuss Jordan Peterson.
Original Air Date: October 24, 2020
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
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I don't resent rich people for being rich. I resent rich people because they're not helping, and I resent them because they don't think they *should be* helping.
exactly. i would have no problem with some people being richer than others as long as they actually were a real benefit to society, and not just greedy hoarders. Rich people are fine, i've been upper middle class before and all i wanted to do was help out my friends who were less lucky whenever i could (sadly can't as much anymore, we're poorer now, but i still try)
if we had an ethical society, one that does its best to cover everybody's needs like shelter, food, clean water, then i dont care if some people are richer, people who are doing extremely important jobs like healthcare, sanitation, or anything else that covers basic needs do deserve good compensation for their work, and also if someone makes a successful product, i think that's a reward they've earned (assuming they actually made it, not stealing the credit like many million/billionaires have done) i just dont want people to be /suffering/ in order for them to stay rich.
Amazon is a prime (lol) example of this. I do think Bezos creating something so useful for many is something that's earned a reward, that is, if we lived in a just world, but instead of using that excessive amount of money to help others, he does quite the absolute opposite, having horrible working conditions and focused on expanding further and further. All that money just to do nothing helpful with it and to treat the employees that keep your business going like dirt. It's disgusting
edit: important to add though, i do still think ending up in the zone where you are a billionaire is extremely excessive, i feel like those funds should belong to the company and the company alone at a certain point. people do not realize how much a billion ACTUALLY is. There is no job you can do where you deserve billions more compared to the people you are employing, yes CEOs work hard sometimes. But its not /billions of dollars/ hard work.
what do you consider to be poor>?@@KITTYMANYA
@@KITTYMANYA I only really take issue with people who are wealthy beyond even the upper-middle class because at that point it's just hoarding.
@@WASDLeftClick pretty much same here. like upper middle class is alright but I still don't quite trust them just because so many are more likely to turn into hoarders of money, but if you get past that somehow I better see you helping your community out with all that wealth lmao
I'm not sure I care at all if someone's rich, whether they're helping people or not. I won't respect them, I won't think they're living up to their potential or their responsibility to their fellow humans, but a rich athlete or musician living their lives in shallow luxury doesn't really bother me. What bothers me is people who are rich specifically off of the backs of others, where all their wealth is wages they withheld from their workers. That bugs me.
I lost a friend because he got sucked into this weird cult. He couldn't stop talking about Peterson, and the moment he learned that I didn't like the guy, he made it his mission to get confrontational with me any time he could, demanding that "debate" him. I finally did, and my former friend was wholly unprepared for someone actually having sources. So he called me a homophobic slur and blocked me from discord. It's probably one of my proudest moments, but damn I wish this creep wouldn't have had that effect on people.
I had a friend like that too.
Dude started off super into Joe Rogan and then after the Jordan Peterson episode, he dove head first into the “clean your room” thing.
He got so defensive after I told him “cleaning your room is a great start but be careful you start thinking JP is god for saying basic stuff”.
Like, sheesh. JP gave you basic advice and now you’re willing to disrespect your friends to defend him, all while him not even paying you or even knowing who you are.
Mind you, we were both 29yrs old at the time. We were not naive, inexperienced kids.
After a while he started going down the Kevin Samuels, Andrew Tate, Ben Shapiro path and he got worse.
What started out as an interest in ice baths and BJJ, eventually morphed into judging people, hating women, hating LGBTQ folks, and being argumentative all the time.
At the surface, dude is a passionate, eccentric, loud, self centered and direct person.
But at the core, he is a deeply disturbed, incredibly negative, and unpleasant human being.
I tried to help as best as I could because you don’t leave a man behind, but I had enough once he turned his sights on my then GF (wife) and judging her for going out and drinking with the girls.
Like, bro: my wife has friends I can hook you up with. Friends who know you and I workout and have passions and interests, and are interested in that.
He’d rather stew in being what he thinks is right than to enjoy life and have a chance at being happy,
I mean i like Peterson , he has some good points mostly from his area of expertise (psychology). Im pretty apolitical but i like to hear smart conversations from both side of political spectrum. What i noticed is that you can find nonsense on both sides no matter how inteligent and articulate they sound. You can like someone and find them inteligent but even the smartest person has some stupid opinions.
@@vsantamato75 knowledge/expertise itself doesnt make a person good and charismatic though. its their intentions or even agendas. and thats the problem with such "charismatic" figures like peterson and thats why ppl (rightfully imho) call him out so much, questioning his intentions and whether he even cares about the consequences of his speeches and books.
@@vsantamato75 "Im pretty apolitical but i like to hear smart conversations from both side of political spectrum." That's how I know you don't actually have an opinion.
@@WASDLeftClick Correct, never said that I do.
Some once said of Newt Gingrich, that he was “what a dumb person thinks a smart person sounds like “. That phrase climbs into my head every time I hear Peterson talk
Not only stunning but also such a brave comment.
Dude hes a clinical psychiatrist. He's not dumb. You don't like his politics. That's what all of this is about. Grow up. Counter his ideas with better ones rather than bitching like a teenage girl.
When the average peterson stan appears, media literacy, critical thinking, and an overall sense of independence leave the chat
I first heard that phrase applied to Stephen Fry several years ago, but Peterson definitely brings it to mind.
Someone said similar about Donald Trump, that he is a poor person's idea of a rich person.
On the point of needing one's life in order first before improving the world, which is often summarized as "clean your room first" I came up with a counter "it's hard to keep your room clean when there's people throwing shit in through the window."
Also, there's no reason not to ask for a raise at work just because your house is messy. The whole thing is an authoritarian "sit down and shut up!" for anybody they deem unworthy.
JBP is a simple kinda guy, with down-to-Earth desires.
All he really wants is to be recognized as the "Most Special Boy In History"
"Anyone who set out to change the world by first changing other people was suspicious" THAT'S YOU JORDAN. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU DO.
Actually, the lobster thing is actually a really great example of just how completely ridiculous so much of Peterson's points and arguments are when you really think about them and understand what he's trying to do.
Basically, Peterson brings up the lobsters because, he claims, that his opponents claim that all hierarchies are unnatural and hence they should be abolished. This is where Peterson says "consider the lobster" and it basically goes like this:
1) Lobsters have existed for millions of years and they have a mating hierarchy in that, every time mating season comes around, lobster will battle it out for the opportunity to mate with some lobsters coming out on top and some losing out.
2) When a lobster wins this mating battle and becomes dominant in the hierarchy, its serotonin level goes up and it becomes more lively, more active, more aggressive, etc. while, when a lobster fails to win, their serotonin goes down and they become droopy and sad and their brains basically liquefy. Hence, because some lobsters are made happy by the hierarchy, it is beneficial and good.
3) Because lobsters are millions of years ago, hence hierarchies are natural.
4) Both humans and lobsters have serotonin and Peterson claims that humans react the same way when they fail and succeed in our hierarchy and our serotonin goes up and down in a similar way, hence our hierarchies are also natural and beneficial.
Now, if you have even three braincells to rub together, you're probably already seeing a lot of problems with this logic! Let's talk about some now! XD
1) This is a blatant appeal to nature and appeal to age fallacy. Just because something is old or natural doesn't mean it's good or right or something we should have in our society. Peterson, in general, is incredibly bad for appeals to nature and age, half of all of his arguments are basically "This thing is old and so therefore must have something of value and is worth preserving". This appeal to nature is also something he's repeatedly called out in his opponents like "eco activists" and yet here he is using it to justify his own worldview.
2) Lobsters and humans operate is such vastly different ways that it's difficult to argue that they can be analogous in any way, not just biologically, but also socially. Lobsters are NOT social animals like humans, they actively hate being put together in the same space as each other. That's the reason why they put rubber bands on the claws of lobsters and crabs in the tanks at the seafood counter or in a seafood restaurant, because, if you don't, then they will literally murder one another until there's only one left standing who then claims the tank as their territory. Humans, on the other hand, can be put in a room together and just make small talk with each other.
3) Just because some individuals benefit from something does not make it good. That's literally what being privileged is, some individuals being PRIVILEGED enough to benefit from a system rather than suffer as a result of it.
4) Humans and lobsters both having serotonin is not unique or exceptional, almost everything on EARTH uses serotonin. Like, plants have serotonin, should we consider the tree and just root ourselves in the ground, passively absorbing nutrients while we wait to photosynthesize?
5) THAT'S NOT HOW SEROTONIN WORKS IN HUMANS AT ALL! Peterson equates serotonin to a mood and reward hormone, but, while it is that in lobster, it is NOT that in humans. He's thinking of dopamine. Serotonin, instead, is much more of a moderating neurotransmitter, it moderates emotional responses and it allows the newer, more rational parts of the brain to override the older, more instinctual parts. When humans have higher serotonin in their systems, they act calm, rational, reasonable, one could say more submissive and deferential, while, when someone has lower serotonin, they become more angry, aggressive, violent, and one could say dominant! It is, in fact, THE EXACT OPPOSITE WAY THAT PETERSON CLAIMS IT WORKS!
6) And, finally, the study he cites as to where he got the information on lobsters and serotonin was done on crayfish, not lobsters.
So, this is either a FORMER PSYCHIATRIST who doesn't know how serotonin works in the human brain (can you say MASSIVE SERIES OF LAWSUITS!!!!!) or a ideologue who knows how serotonin works, but is just ACTIVELY LYING about it because he knows his audience won't pick up on it and because it allows him to justify his worldview. And, honestly, as much as I would LOVE IT to be the former, I have to believe it was the latter.
I think what happened is that Peterson discovered this study about crayfish, thought "Oh, I can use this to justify my beliefs" and just pretended it was about lobsters because humans and crayfish was a WAY bigger jump than humans and lobsters.
I wonder what he thinks of dung beetles or any other animal that uses deception to mate? I'm sure he just ignores all of this. I should check and see if he failed to comply with the classes on understanding he was supposed to take regarding trans and honoring pronouns or if failing to do so Canada struck him (rightfully if they did) off their medical register.
I can’t work out the ratio between deliberately misleading and dumb. But I have recently started to suspect he is dumb more often than I initially thought.
Like you say, he really should know how serotonin works, as a psychiatrist, so I assumed that was a deliberate trick. But then he also didn’t know how dangerous benzos are, to the point that it cost him his health. Which again is basic knowledge in an area where he specialises.
In a way it doesn’t matter- stupidity or malice, it’s all just as dangerous. But I am morbidly curious what’s going on in his mind.
*Former psychologist. Peterson never went to medical school, thank God.
Great analysis!
@@jayfrank1913 I bet he plays into the fact that most of us lay people (me included) assume he has had more medical training than he has.
Also note: lobster (or crayfish) brains don't liquefy due to low serotonin levels. That's another point where JP misread his sources.
Regarding 2): the point that you can't make an analogy to other species is made in the very article JP quotes as source (the paper on crayfish), but he of course ignored it.
Regarding 4) and 5): JP like an awful lot of people have a way too mechanical view of how biochemistry works. Serotonin is just a neurotransmitter, meaning it transfers between nerve cells. But _what_ it transfers can be any number of things, and whatever in that is influenced by genes (the proteins those genes are blueprints for) depends on the species.
Regarding 6): I think it went like you said, he read something that fit his preconceptions so he didn't read further or attentively, but the substitution of crayfish with lobsters was just because the two are the same for him. He is a psychologist, not a biologist. (Also cue in his bizarre theory that ancient depictions of snakes winding around each other are collective subconscious representations of the structure of DNA: he never bothered to ask a biologist or just watch a nature documentary to find out that those ancient depictions show snakes mating.)
It always seemed to me that Peterson was trying to resolve his own personal issues but was mistaking his personal issues and subconscious views as being universal, objective truths. Instead of questioning himself and his views he declared the world to be broken because it didn't conform to what he saw when he looked at himself.
Like all psychoanalysis, it's one big giant projection. People like Peterson project their perversions onto others and call it psychology
Pretty much since the first step of psychology it's been that way. Sigmund Freud was like "I think my mother is kind of hot and it disturbs me, everyone else must feel the same"
It's more that he was a failed quack pecker pill salesman that got BTFO by the world in general. Him not understanding how humans work didn't help. You can definitely tell he does a lot of drinking and dope, so reality just doesn't equate with him.
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Well said. That's probably much more universal than you'd think in terms of both tyrants and reformers.
You have just described every villain of literally every comic book movie ever made.
Finally somebody is saying something about the Swiss. They put those holes in their cheese and tell you it's fancy to SELL YOU LESS CHEESE! Wake up sheeple!
Just like bakers put all those holes in the bread so they can sell you less bread.
gasp... Crate and Barrel is a scam too!
@@aaronbredon2948 I'm eating hardtack sea-biscuits from now on. The only honest bread!
The holes are caused by dirt. In the past 20 year the holes were decreasing because of excessive cleanliness. They now chuck a pinch of dust into each Milk churn
I haven't heard the Swiss get their just desserts since Orson Welles in The Third Man. Pick a side, you Swiss! But keep up the good work with cocoa
For someone that espouses the idea of being “well” before helping others, he spends a lot of his time being a jittering wreck. That’s not to say being unwell or unstable is wrong, it’s the human condition, but he’s not a shining example of his own ideas. Practising therapists (including psychologists like himself) are ethically bound to regularly seek “supervision”, essentially informed therapy, in order to keep themselves objective and fit to practice. I wonder if he keeps up with his appointments?
Nope. He lost his license because he didn’t want to go to sensitivity training regarding his tweets. And of course he made a big stink of it.
And as Cody would later point out in his very concise episode about Dr. Peterson, the point about the military having a minimum IQ requirement isn't even true, because the military aptitude test is not an IQ test.
I love that extremely concise video! Honestly, I would have watched one twice as short…don’t check the time codes!
So, do you think someone with too low an IQ could pass the aptitude test? I would say they probably can't, which means different name, same result.
@@ronmc4363 IQ is meaningless pseudoscience, so it's not worth talking much about in the first place, but judging by some of the people I served with in the military, you can be staggeringly unintelligent and still get in. Military aptitude tests are similar to IQ tests, though, in that the only thing they tell you is how good someone is at taking that specific test.
Don’t check the time codes!
@@portmantologistthe amount of breathtakingly stupid people I ran into during my time in the military was so damn high. So yeah, the ASVAB doesn't weed them out.
About 10 years younger than Peterson, but as a 70s/80s kid I can attest that I lived constantly under the fear of nuclear annihilation. For some extra trauma, I grew up near the Lawrence/Kansas City area - i.e. where the TV film The Day After is set. So I got to see places I knew blasted by pretend nuclear fire when I was still in elementary school. 👍
I always figured his whole "Clean your room first" schtick was to put down students and young people from trying to change anything in society, thus reinforcing the hierarchies that Peterson loves and was firmly entrenched in as a university professor. Basically "You're too young and dumb to know anything, so stop trying." Which is an incredibly right wing/conservative viewpoint.
The good news: anyone who, out of pocket, assumes the views and validity of someone’s points before they are spoke, does not need their views or points taken seriously either.
Everyone and everything is a threat to these folks. And the web is cluttered with the benign sounding Hillsdale college and Young America foundation....
I think that's the biggest problem with his ideas too. It conflicts with his supposed Christian morals too. The idea that nobody is perfect and it's still your duty to serve other people and try and help those around you is one of the most basic ideas in the religion.
@@jujuandjesusI've seen a ton of jordan peterson, and I think this is a fair criticism. You could argue that there's a balance to be struck, you kind of have to "clean your own room" AND help other people, because you're never perfect, and it's hard to say when you're doing too little of either. Even if this is what he believes, he always phrases it in a way that is easy to misconstrue as "don't worry about other people until you've got your life in order," which is a problem. I understand the distinction between "don't help other people" and "don't tell others what to do" comes into it, but he still isn't overly clear because he always talks about this particular issue in figurative language.
The whole “clean your room first” thing reminded me so much of Marine Corps bootcamp.
In bootcamp, sure they “teach” you basic stuff but you absolutely do not come out a legitimate “expert” in many of the things you’re taught.
So, you’re not a lethal, highly effective, john wick man who-can-beat-up-drunk-bar-dudes when you come out of bootcamp.
However, you do gain some competency in what they “teach” you and probably one of the most common things you get good at is making your bed and cleaning your things.
It is a daily morning ritual to make your bed neatly and to standard, and to clean the barracks (sweep, mop, wipe down).
You do that for 3 months and then that practice can (not will) follow you well into the next 4 years of active duty service.
It’s a good habit to have but it’s absolutely something Marine Corps bootcamp not only used as a method to teach accountability, but also as a means to instill obedience, conformity and following orders.
George Lucas did have an editor for his first film (and some subsequent ones). She, alongside John Williams, helped save the movie from mediocrity. The editor was his Ex-Wife, Marcia Lucas.
If Marcia had been around to edit the prequels, they would have been quite good movies. If she hadn't edited the first movie, it would never have become as popular as it did, and we'd live in a wildly different world.
Also Paul Hirsch.
Also Richard Chew.
And he thanked her by treating women like shit in his films. particularly in the prequels.
@@0hushpiper0 No amount of editing could save the horrendous prequel dialogue.
Jordan Peterson stans: "We're not a cult!"
Also Jordan Peterson stans: "They're saying something about Jordan Peterson that isn't glowing praise! BATTLESTATIONS!"
Hes just as worthy of criticism as anybody else. To be fair though many youtubers have built their career on ad hominem attacks on the dude. There's no denying hes a politicized figure.
@@dukejivetalker7541Ad hominem attacks on Jordan Peterson such as? I have searched for criticism of Peterson, the ones I’ve found aren’t simply calling him an annoying weirdo (which he is), they bring receipts. I’ve found many, many more CZcamsrs pouring out praise for him simply for “owning the libs”, or feminists, or whatever.
That's literally every internet fanbase. Is every fanbase a cult? Try going to literally any streamer or CZcamsr's subreddit or comment section and say something negative, see what happens
@@superstimulatedminotaur3681 see there's another one
@@bastage5932 Tell me I'm wrong. I don't care about Peterson, but literally every internet fanbase acts like that
Coming back from the first break immediately with "Campbell's racism" briefly made me think we were suddenly talking about the soup company and they had a very concerning new product.
Yeah, it is very odd though, considering there's no evidence for it. If you look at his wiki's edit log it's been a battle to put the articles in. But it doesn't meet any academic muster. The genesis was an academic analysis by Robert Segal.
There's no examples of him being quoted saying anything all that bad about anybody. It just seems to be something people believe about him. Much like Walt Disneys anti-Semitism. If you actually look into it, there isn't any evidence of it. It's just something people believe now.
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Said this elsewhere… but has someone checked on Peterson’s patients? Are they okay? Because if they are, I think we can agree that it’s despite him…
Caelan Conrad on YT recently did a video on just that subject. It appears many of them kinda got abandoned once JP got famous
In my head cannon Peterson's middle name is Bellend.
😂😂😂 I love that, I won't be able to unhear that
JBP's unquestioning statement that "disorder has always been represented as feminine!" (By whom?) "That's just the way it is! You can't change it or we wouldn't be human anymore" ironically sounds like the overly sure religious statements he rejected as a teen in confirmation class. So... question everything...unless he agrees with it?
PS. In Hinduism aren't a lot of the chaos demons male?
The Ancient Greeks did not assign gender to chaos because to them it was a non-personified force of nature.
Tolkien represented the she-Ents as being the orderly, civilized ones, while the he-Ents were the wild ones. Also . . . come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Peterson also has made a big deal of how the feminine sexual fantasy involves civilizing a dangerous, savage man, which . . . I don't agree with his starting or ending points there, but it does seem like a contradiction of his standpoint here, now doesn't it?
JP really loves words. He says a massive amount of words, he reads a ton of them. Words have been there for him when people weren’t.
So he is willing to wage war for 2-4 letter words…. A “visionary” indeed.
I started reading by age three. It’s called hyperlexia and is often a sign of autism.
If JBP is telling us the truth, then he might be on the spectrum. That would explain A LOT about his rigid views on everything.
"Clean your room and then lick the boot." - Jordan Peterson probably
Hey, Robert, love the show. Cody is always great. The discussion about Peterson’s followers and their cultish behavior got me thinking about Stephen Molyneaux (I think I got the spelling on there right, the dude’s clearly a bastard just for having a name that’s so difficult to spell). Anyway, a Molyneaux episode with you and Cody would be great.
Thanks for the great content!
-Tom
I think the host and guest overstate Peterson's public speaking skills. I've heard so many examples of batshit word salad from his speeches and panels that I can't imagine holding that opinion.
Yeah, everyone says he is this eloquent speaker but in reality he just sounds like that one time you went camping and your friend ate too many mushrooms
Agreed. Also, the tendency to burst into tears. Nothing wrong with a man crying, but it doesn't make for particularly compelling or charismatic oration.
Have you considered that the millions of people following him arent all wrong? And that the word salad you are hearing is valuable information but you don't have the right worldview (simply caring deeply) to understand?
@@repton007millions of people can all be wrong about the same thing. Phrenology was a pretty popular "science" in its time, and a millions of people believed it
@@Rune3100 I suppose they can be but if one only hears word salad when jordan peterson talks maybe the problem is oneself since so many other people seem to be getting something out of his lectures and interviews
I'm like an hour in, and i was really hoping to understand why people pay attention to him.
I was told to check him out, and i listened to maybe a dozen hours of him lecturing. It was awful. I love how you guys described it - he just cherry picks random things all the time to prove a point but never actually proves his point.
I was just so confused.
I'm glad others shared in this experience. I'll keep listening. I still don't understand why anyone thinks he is saying anything worth listening to.
He's saying things hateful people like and using big words to give it a thin veil of legitimacy. Moreso because he can *for now* claim he's a real doctor. I don't think he's suckering in anyone new by now, he just is a useful tool for assholes to sound more legit.
I used to find it fun trying figure out what the hell he was even talking about . He speaks in such a weird way. I found pretty quickly I didn't agree with much that he said but I found it entertaining the way he said it. Kind of interesting ideas to think about sometimes but only to figure out why I thought he was wrong. I was never really a fan of the anti political correctness anti social justice warrior stuff but it was popular at the time and still is but generally called anti woke nowadays This was all before his benzo addiction and joining the daily wire and going full right wing. Don't listen to him anymore, it's just even worse now
@Will-xf3qe Cocaine is a hell of a drug. As someone that's had quite a bit of experience with people on copious amounts of blow, I can tell you that Peterson's meandering/quick/sharp way of speaking (especially at the height of his celebrity career) is very obviously "enhanced".
He claimed that he was abusing Benzos, which I believe. He just leaves out the part about using the Benzos to "balance" out the coke. No one on Benzos, only, is edging the kind of manic energy Peterson shows/showed.
Mix those little "indiscretions" with a psych degree and media training, and you too can lecture for two hours while never once coming to a single actual point.
He offers the illusion of certainty. “Believe this because it’s right” “behave like this because it’s the right way”
Authoritarian Follower personality types are deeply afraid of everything and don’t trust their own judgement, which is why they glom onto this kind of grifter. It gives them comfort when someone tells them what to do and think.
He's well spoken and speaks authoritative language. That's all it takes
This will make a great addition to my "Jordan Peterson is bad" playlist.
A self-help guru who is remarkably un-self-aware. So much so that it's kind of hilarious until you consider how many people take him very, very seriously.
Great podcast. I didn't get to quite see it live. Just 8mo late lol
4:30 Jordan Be Peterson's voice is just Kermit if he's deathly afraid and on the verge of tears, actually. That's how i get there, anyway.
People should absolutely listen to a mentor when they say their mentee is dangerous. It is INCREDIBLY hard to admit someone you mentored sucks.
10:13 I can believe he was reading at three. Some kids actually start at two. We're talking easy readers, folks. There's a huge variation at that age.
What I don't believe is that he's still a reader. Both his academic and public speaking corpus repeatedly return to books he read years ago. He shows no sign of having really read or absorbed anything new since the 1990s and even then he was only reading stuff that validated his priors.
This is why he embarrassed himself in front of Zizek. He's read commentaries on Marx, but only from a certain point of view, and he hasn't read a lot of Marx and he was so arrogant that he didn't even bother to review it prior to the debate.
That's what I hate about all these "objective truths" logical libertarian (secretly conservative) types like Peterson and Shapiro. They only use that as a way of setting up everything they preach as beyond reproach. It just another form of hard right conservatives invoking "nature" to support all their shitty stances. Both are an ethereal version of the old appeal to authority fallacy.
One of my favorite content creators on one of my favorite podcasts. Dope. 🍿
It’s always nice when the Cracked diaspora cross paths
I am slowly collecting all the Crakedugees' collective works
The thing about personality traits is a hallmark JP technically correct but used to force a weird conclusion.. Yes, those are major personality traits and all psychologists would probably agree. Although boxing people only into those 5 is silly, there's more to people and more personality traits. Also, well, yes, those character traits obviously exist in all cultures, how they'd be expressed can be different. He has such a need to completely understand the world, which is obviously impossible, any definitive conclusions will always be wrong.
The 5 Personality Traits are less of an "accepted truth" and more of a model. As in, it's a way to conceive and conceptualize personality, but no serious Psychologist treats that as an objective measure of anything. It's also not the only accepted model of personality and different models are useful for conceptualizing personality in different ways. And, yes, they are statistically "verified", but all this means is that you can measure it, it doesn't mean the thing your measuring is the actual thing that causes personality differences (and again, serious Psychologists would never construe it to be). This pattern of taking a subjective tool and presenting it as an objective truth is a consistent pattern across Peterson's tortured interpretations of all of psychology and Carl Jung.
@@alexmarcelo6494 pretty similar to that Todd Grande fella. Well, Dr. Todd Grande I guess, he has a PhD in education
Bro, you missed a meta-joke about Sirhan-Sirhan assassination Doc Petersen, since you didn’t know he was still alive. JP’s new pal Bobby Kennedy Jr. wants Sirhan outta jail now because he doesn’t think he killed his dad!
So happy to meet Cody in this Showdy! :)) - And even more delighted I am, that Robert keeps misgendering Mircea Eliade as "she/her" for a good amount of the time - he would have hated that so much!
the most apt description of the canadian government ever, lol.
I think the whole "you have to get your own house in order before you can help others" thing illustrates just how much he can fall victim to confirmation bias. I mean, I somehow doubt he's unfamiliar with AA, and the 12 step program of recovery -of which, helping others is a core component (f.y.i. the 12 steps can be categorized into (1) Trust God, (2) Clean House, (3) Help Others).
I remember the first time I heard of Peterson, and it was when my godfather, a tenured professor of cognitive psychology, was bitching to my dad, a developmental psychologist, about how Peterson visited his collage for a talk, and how bad of a psychologist Peterson was. This would have been in the early 2000s.
It was like listening to a couple of old ladies gossiping, but they basically described Peterson as an outdated quack whose understanding of psychology would have been acceptable in the 1960. Unfortunately for Peterson psychology had greatly evolved from that point on. They viewed almost all the Carl Jung's writings were more important for understanding the history of psychology, but had no real use in modern psychology outside of that. They mentioned that intelligence tests were absolutely useless, and yet Peterson put weight in it. And that Peterson's psychology was racist to a disturbing degree. Just as a small note, both of them are almost a decade older than him, and they viewed all of his academic work as terribly backwards.
1:09:00 - Many psychologists don't believe in the 5 personality types. The model has been criticized many times for lacking scientific support and if I'm not misremembering, wasn't even designed by anyone with scientific training.
You're probably confused with the MBTI here. The Five Factor Model is the most accepted scientific model of personality currently.
@@thomasmichaels1671yeah he was describing the OCEAN model but lumped it in with a whole bunch of other things.
@@Comrade.Question Openness to experience, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism IS the Five Factor Model. And it IS bullshit.
It is literally Petersonian drawing of circles around linguistic sets and calling such artificially constructed sets personality traits.
Just take a look at the scale of supposed "traits". Inventive/curious vs. consistent/cautious? Inventive is supposedly opposite to consistent? Curious to cautious? Maybe in cats.
Same with the rest of it. Efficient/organized vs. extravagant/careless. Outgoing/energetic vs. solitary/reserved. Friendly/compassionate vs. critical/rational. Sensitive/nervous vs. resilient/confident.
Do note the bias on the "positive" side of the spectrum.
Inventive Efficient Outgoing Friendly Resilient/Confident CHAD vs Cautious Careless Solitary Critical Sensitive NEUROTIC.
And please do consider what it means that being Critical and Rational is opposed to being Friendly and Compassionate. Use facts and logic.
It is no more valid than a Buzzfeed quiz.
Telling peope to "clean their room" when he has a benzo addiction? Yeesh, man needs some humility.
Does it count as cleaning your room when he tried to get over the benzo addiction but was too much of a pussy so he had Russian quacks put him into a coma that gave him brain damage? Kinda like cleaning your room by paying someone else to burn it down.
When the comments are defending a grifter 🤦♂️
There isn't a thing you can do about these people, they're a lost cause!
@@feralmode Clean your room
@@feralmode If you are like most people, you don't often think about lobsters, unless you're eating one.
@@feralmode Go to bed jimmy you have school tomorrow
@@hananecurious i think some are just not educated enough to understand him. If you think he is fascist then i rest my case. People often look.for an argument and those who think he is fascist deeply misunderstand or dont listen
5:55 I'm not sure I'm completely up on my Soviet history and I'd recommend anyone interested to read up on antisemitism in the Soviet Union, which was a very real thing, but afaik early on it was in fact comparatively pretty good to be Jewish in the Soviet Union, or at least the state and party leaders took a pretty decisive stance against antisemitism. By far the worst periods of antisemitism in the USSR started under Stalin and particularly post-WW2, with a second (afaik less brutal) wave after relations between Israel and the USSR soured. Early on there was a pretty strong commitment against antisemitism, at least from Communists. Of course all antisemitism didn't disappear overnight, especially as everyone who wanted to be in the state's good graces joined the party eventually.
Hold over from Imperial Russia?
@@user-gl5dq2dg1j yes, largely. Imperial Russian culture was *super* antisemetic and authoritarian regimes gotta have scapegoats, so Stalin quickly revived an old local favorite when Beria was failing to scare everyone into obedience with just forced disappearances and the Red Terror. It calmed down again mostly past the early 60s.
Hey Cody!
From Cody Showdy! What a nice surprise!
I am new listener. I was hoping / wondering if you would take this guy on I had very good friend ( one if the best I eve had ). However she became a Jordan Peterson fan girl and underwent a total change in the focus of her life . She raged against birth tourism and immigration and the fact she would never be able to afford a house .Eventually we came to a parting of the ways I watched a couple of his interviews and took a look a couple of his books . He , immediately struck me as a Man on the Make / a Two Bit Hustler with a talent for self promotion .It as my impression he became the intellectual darling of the alt right because he saw it as a money making making opportunity ( and a chance to score on a regular basis )
There's so many things to be said about Peterson, but one thing I don't see enough is, he's so unconvincing when he swears and gets loud. Like, I've never qualified as a jock, be I would be comfortable calling him a pipsqueak.
Becoming a big fan of this podcast. I'm always here for dumping on JP, it's also nice to be able to hear Cody unscripted. =)
I love Cody.
That voice, when you yell, sounds like the Grand Nagus from Deep Space Nine. Listen back to it and see.
So funny to relate to Jordan Peterson so much in how he collects and compares ideas, but going in the opposite direction. I'm in uni studying creative writing, sociology and philosophy. I keep comparing how the structure of stories continues and enforces power dynamics. Again, going in the opposite direction. Like ahh yes we are all just humans living in a society, trying to understand.
A correction: Mircea Eliade (pronounced Meer-cha Eh-lee-ah-deh) was a man. He is popular for his books about religions, and his novel Maitreyi (Bengal Nights) which involves a relationship between himself and an Indian woman Maitreyi Devi.
Damn some real incels in the comments
Somehow, they always seem to come out of the woodwork whenever JP is criticised
Waiting still for his debate with Prof. Richard Wolff. Or is Peterson's challenge like the rest of his argumentation: hot garbage air?
He debated Matt Dillahunty a few years ago and didn't fare well.
Boomer here, born in 1953.
When I wasn't having nightmares about nuclear holocaust, I was having nightmares about Jesus's 2nd coming. And, yes. I acquired a bad life-long case of PTSD. Most aware boomers do.
"Bring it on like the Swiss bring on" was where my brain finished the sentence by immediately saying "Nazi gold"
I'll just say as some with a masters in psychology the big 5 personality traits are very well validated.
It isn't claimed they are a perfect all encompassing quantification of everyone's personality profile. They are just the 5 traits that consistently pop up in people across cultures that are consistently predictive of outcomes associated with those constructs.
There are other constructs that are predictive outside of the big 5. Like I've been reading about a "hardiness" construct that is more predictive of outcomes when used used the big 5 as opposed to just the big 5 alone.
Peterson hasn't read any Orwel, maybe a fly sheet or someone else's summary. He knows nothing about Marxism either. In fact Ive never heard him make anclaim that turns out to be grounded in fact.
censored
Gasp. Cody J.
I "know" that guy!
Which episode was referenced that talks about Julius Evola? I can't be arsed to read the jibberish he wrote, but willing to hear a light summary.
Literally couldnt have brought on a better guest!
Well, time to ruin my CZcams recommendations even more than the Roman history and anime clips did.
Speaking as an Albertan, our provinces NDP can barely even be called social democrat, and is much more accurately classified as capitalists who accept the national status quo on a few social systems. I note this, because it is extremely common here for people to come to one of two conclusions, either that there is no way to get actual improvements to happen here, or that this utterly status quo party is the exemplification of left wing politics. Regardless of the conclusion, the Texas of Canada continues its inexorable march towards being the first part of Canada to enact its own fascist state, and Petersons read of things is one of the most understandable things about his mental state.
Oh, it's Cody!
JP has this weird cultish effect on people where, if you say that you're not really a fan of the guy, his followers will explain to you how, yes, actually you are but you just don't realize it.
The irony of Peterson's IQ based calls for basically "what to do with these people"
Hes probably changed his views on that since his mind turned to mush.
I could be way, WAY off base here… but JBPs deep seated fear that he believes something that might not be true and the consequent pivot toward black-and-white “this is TRUE this is TRUE it is ALWAYS TRUE” … it sounds like OCD, which is what I have
Actually I think Peterson and I have the same kind of ocd - the idea that we are immoral and don’t believe the right things causes deep, deep anxiety and it upsets us so the natural response is to overthink and overthink and overthink until we find the ABSOLUTE PERFECT SOLUTION that can NEVER BE WRONG
But that never happens, because nothing is perfect. Some people choose to accept this through coaching, some people like Peterson double down and when they find a solution that gives them the comfort of certainty they will drive it into the ground until it’s six feet under. Some people just! Stay anxious! Because again, the solutions you come up with are never perfect.
He’s only certain to hide his anxiety about the - for lack of a better term - chaos inherent to belief systems, to solutions, to life. It’s not so much the idea that brings him comfort, it’s the fact that he can convince himself he is right and that there are certain and concrete answers to the questions and fears he has
I don’t pity him because he’s a rich white man who enables fascist rhetoric, but I do see my own behaviors inside him and therefore empathize. Thank god I didn’t double down like he did lol
He had to cold turkey benzos, so he's likely got anxiety. He's also been diagnosed with schizophrenia, but he may have been going through withdrawals when diagnosed.
The military doesn't actually test for IQ though. They make you take a general knowledge test called the ASVAB (it may have been renamed since I took it in 1995), and it is absolutely NOT an IQ test. It's just general knowledge and is broken down into subcategories to help determine what you'd be good at if you went into the military. Tested really well on science and auto repair? Come be a mechanic! Tested well on general knowledge and everything overall? Come be a linguist and work in intel (which is what I did). Didn't do great on anything in particular? Come be an 11-boom-boom ("11b" aka "eleven bravo" is the Army MOS/job code for infantryman).
The funny thing is, where it's just a general knowledge test, people with disorders like dyslexia who struggle with such tests struggle with the ASVAB too. I know people who've had to go through that despite being pretty smart, and it sucks (although being denied entry into the military could be a good thing depending on your perspective...).
The space magic religion in Star Wars isn't social darwinist; it's actually quite the opposite. Liam Neeson pointed out in Episode 1 that it was totally random and the Republic had to watch for it so that people with the powers could be trained to use it altruistically for the betterment of society. It's random (not counting Space Jesus and his family) and not inherently good or evil. If you want to see an example of a fictional magic that does lean into social darwinism, look at the Potterverse.
And yeah, Sirhan B(umblebee) Sirhan is still alive. He was up for parole earlier this year (2023) and it was denied.
The 80's were rough. We really thought we were going to die.
Robert: JBP is kind of a cult leader
Lobsters: NUH UHH HOW DARE YOU DEFAME LOBSTER DADDY I WOULD DIE FOR HIM
You can't make this shit up 🤦
Why are dissing lobsters? They are a tasty crustaceans and fill an important ecological niche, something peterson and his ilk and followers do not.
@@user-gl5dq2dg1jcant comment on how tasty lobsters are, but i certainly prefer their company to Peterson and his cultists.
I just don’t understand how Peterson’s “teachings” can be helpful to anyone. One of the best things you can be is resilient, put Peterson says that change is bad and you should fight tirelessly against it and reject all notion that society can be better than any form it’s taken in the past.
It’s because he’s a dumb person’s smart person. His ramblings speak to a very uneducated, gullible audience looking for concrete answers to an unknown universe.
What's with the guy's fixation on chaos having to be feminine? That only seems to apply to Greek or Romans. Even in Europe, the Norse had Loki as god of chaos and mischief, he was a man. The Celts had Balor, also a male. Once you get out of Europe and into other continents you find a variety of Chaos representation that are also male. Once you pull out of pantheons and into our earliest monotheistic traditions that pit chaos/destruction against order... Ahriman in Zoroastrianism represents the counterpart to order and is also a male.
ehhh. Not saying Peterson is right or anything at all, but specifically regarding Loki and Odin, both are representations of Chaos in Norse mythology...and both also have *incredibly* feminine traits. Odin learns and practices Seidr, a type of magic that was seen as something solely for women. Loki turns into female things *all the time,* and there's implications that Odin has done the same.
So at least in the Norse view of divinity, spirituality and so on, you could make a pretty good argument that "chaos" has a certain feminine tinge to it. While Order, arguably best-represented by the likes of Thor, Tyr, and so on? The most masculine of masculine things you could imagine.
(even if Thor did crossdress to get back Mjolnir, though in fairness to Thor, it was entirely Loki's idea. Prolly because he thought it'd be funny. And in fairness to Loki, it was.)
"What the dickens!?" -George Orwell
I got an ad for the daily wire featuring none other than JB Peterson before the podcast 😂
I'd recognize Cody's voice anywhere! Nice!
The recipe for a fascist is very simple: a fear of chaos that is stronger than the love of justice.
Jordan is the incels “Batman”….
Raytheon ad break was pure gold.
Yes, my generation grew up with the constant threat of nuclear annihilation. This generation is growing up with the CERTAINTY of slowly being cooked to death, along with the still possible threat of nuclear annihilation.
I'll see y'all in 30 years, maybe. Sweet dreams.
How in the fuck are we supposed to steal every catalytic converter in the world if you guys have less than 1000 subs on youtube? im amazed that this podcast hasnt blown up bigger, i love the format.
@@user-mm8vw1ow1x its just small on CZcams, a lot of people listen. I don't think they're arrogant lol like at all
1:22:10
I question what he's calling a "while" in this case.
The way he speaks it might as well mean "after eternal life for rich people fails and I'm dead".
CZcams community is just not a fan of this despite it being really popular and I find that funny
I wouldn't take it too seriously, overage age here is probably 16. It's like 4chan but for teens. There are some bastions of intellect here but for the most part, it's a cesspool
never heard that as a slur before, its a bit awkward being that my mom calls my dad Flip because he's named Philip and was a gymnast.
All this myth and morality talk combined with this focus on order and chaos and deep desire to be important has convinced me Jordan just wants to be the God Emperor from 40k.
I enjoy a lot of Urban Fantasy. If Jordan ever discovered real magic, he would certainly become an evil sorcerer. 😂
Keep up the good work guys! Love it when i hear voices of reason in the midst of the right wing BS youtube keeps recommending me.
Peterson is gross. I instantly lose respect for people who defend him at this point.
06:30 - A mistake. Under the Tzar were 1000 laws against Jews.
CCCP was the first country ever(!) where Jews were equal to all other nations.
“In the U.S.S.R. antisemitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system.
Under U.S.S.R. law active antisemites are liable to the death penalty.” -Stalin.
13:00 - The latter two of the three authors were graphomaniacs, harboring a grudge against CCCP.
30:00 - At the entrance of the built museum of Lucas’ art, I wish to see his quote about CCCP.
I would argue how important Campbell was if screenwriters still use the phrase “(V.) Propp it up”.
33:30 - Joseph Goebbels’ quote comes to mind about enticing a nation like a woman.
37:30 - Most replayed point of the video. He has nothing to do with psychology; we will see it later.
55:00 - I have this timestamp written down.
1:08:50 - I have met these metrics in another professor of anthropology - The jolly heretic Edward Dutton.
However, 30-60% of all psychology experiments cannot be repeated. The heretic is biased.
I'm so stupid that I wasn't able to figure out if Raytheon really was a sponsor of the podcast.
Jordan Peterson's job is literally to teach students. He doesn't get to say whatever he wants to them. If he teaches his students a bunch of bullshit that's a problem for him and the school. You better believe they mandate his educational practices be factual. Respecting the students is also part of the job, and if he can't do that, then he cannot be a teacher.
So, I found this channel via Reddit(Hi, Scott Adams you hack).
Very great so far!
I was more than chuffed at another piece on Peterson, and yet you kept me glued the moment I heard my beloved News Dude speak. What with being all for being Fair and Balanced™️
I'm dropping out at the part where he says there was a boom in art in Weimar Germany and the nazi's said that the art was designed to destroy western civilisation and bring about communism... The art that boomed in weimar Germany was Dadaism. Dadaism describes itself as anti art. One of its main goals was to snub it's nose at traditional society and art. And a lot of it's most famous Artists were communist or leaned very heavily to left.
"Stochastic Terrorism" is what they call that I think.
Mircea Eliade...sounded like you were saying "she"? He's a he. Name is pronounced mirt-shay-ah (or maybe it's mirt-shee-ah...not sure!) Source is Wikipedia. :-)
Some of the things said here remind me of a book my ancestor wrote about Freud, called "Induced Delusions: The Psychopathy of Freudism", talking about Freud having insights that are largely specific to his own psyche and don't generalize well, but he was a good speaker and his followers were basically a cult.
only recognized Cody at the end. Thanks for being allies to LGBTQ people x
And there it is lol. One mans saint is another mans sinner.
@@dukejivetalker7541 Are you saying that the LGBTQ are not worthy of having friends and allies?
Why would feminine be chaotic?
Standard scapegoating tactic, also useful in fascism. Have an out-group who is less powerful, easy to beat up on, and somehow... responsible for all the bad stuff. Don't think about it too hard, just take JP's word as truth that it's them darn wimmins!
@11:11 WOW, I never thought I had a particularly good confirmation experience, but at least our pastor didn't say anything about Gandhi being in hell.
A thing I get now is he suffers from acute russo-phobia, inherited from his, although pampered, uprising during the cold-war era. A phobia that developed into a full blown fetish of everything "enemy". (he seems somehow disassociated from this dichotomy)
I wonder what happened to his students who didn't gobble his "teachings". I met a few of these guru type of teachers, seldom ends well for the students who resist.
Is that why he supports Russia's invasion on Ukraine and let russian doctors induce him into coma for few months?
What would be examples of his Russo phobia ?
Since he was at one point a mainstream psychologist, not sure if he was part of faculty at a university or not, his legitimate students may very well have disowned him.
I might have the wrong picture, but I thought he was a little too sympathetic to modern Russia .
The Showdy that is not Cody's?
Does anybody else feel that Robert's Ben Shapiro impression at 28:30 came off more like Jimmy Dore?
1:09:00 if biology is destiny then why be a psychologist? People go to psychologist to help them get through trauma and make better life choices. If it's all genes then people can't change.